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AMD claims Barcelona K10 will knock Intel dead

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April 12, 2007 4:02:17 PM

This one is from our favorite news website Inq. :wink:

Quote:
And Amato claimed: "We aren't losing market share at all." µ


So, what do ya think? Can Barcelona take on the big bad guy, Conroe? I know, I know, this was so much talked about that people are geting sick of it, the only thing missing is Barcelona to actually make a live apearance.
April 12, 2007 4:29:30 PM

Guiseppe Amato must be related to Baghdad Bob how do you drop 1/3 of your revenue in a quarter and not lose market share?
April 12, 2007 4:39:05 PM

lower prices....
Related resources
April 12, 2007 4:52:17 PM

Quote:
lower prices....


Year over year, CPU's market grew by 8%. So your saying that's all just pricing... I think not. AMD lost market share, to say otherwise is utter denial.
April 12, 2007 5:05:38 PM

Quote:
im still waiting for AMD's answer for C2D dont give a crap about k10


So you're saying that K10 aka Barcelona is not AMD's answer to Core2? :?:
April 12, 2007 5:17:08 PM

Didn't they skip the C2D question and move on to the C2Q?
April 12, 2007 5:26:11 PM

Quote:
lol no it isnt
k10 is a server part it competes with penryn

No. K10 is the arch that will encompass all of AMD's next gen chips, just as K8 encompasses Opteron, Athlon, Turion etc.
April 12, 2007 5:26:38 PM

Am I the only one far more excited about a 2.9Ghz dual-core than a 2.3Ghz quad-core K10? I can't be.
April 12, 2007 5:33:26 PM

Quote:
thats funny cause from what i read k10 is a glorified/modified k8. from what i could tell they took a k8 and added some features and cores and stuff. plus i think its funny trying to consider k10 with its low-k dialectric being relevent 2 years from now

"cores and stuff" ?? LOL

You're technical knowledge astounds me.
April 12, 2007 5:40:52 PM

I like that picture with the crossbar switch. It would sound better if it was a crowbar switch. Why is it Inq always has such stupid titles. I think AMD will knock Intel to the mat for 6 seconds before Intel gets up and throws some jabs.
April 12, 2007 6:06:16 PM

we live in egypt, denial runs thru here!!!!!!!
April 12, 2007 6:11:13 PM

Quote:
just as technical as AMD is
http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/amatotwo.jpg
enhancements? feature consistancy?
sounds like the same old thing just a bit faster and more cores and stuff

You really need to stop, you're making a total fool of yourself.

K10 is a HELL of a lot more than just "bit faster and more cores and stuff" Wikipedia has a brief article that is a good place to start, do some reading.
April 12, 2007 6:33:17 PM

Everytime I see references to Wikipedia, it reminds me of this quote from Michael Scott of The Office

Let me quote.
"Wikipedia, it's the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know that you are getting the best possible information."
April 12, 2007 6:50:25 PM

Quote:
lower prices....


Year over year, CPU's market grew by 8%. So your saying that's all just pricing... I think not. AMD lost market share, to say otherwise is utter denial.

ASP's are in the gutter.... its entirely possible that they haven't lost much overall marketshare seeing how far prices have tumbled.

That being said they'd be better off with higher ASP's and less share.
April 12, 2007 7:01:00 PM

Quote:
lower prices....


Year over year, CPU's market grew by 8%. So your saying that's all just pricing... I think not. AMD lost market share, to say otherwise is utter denial.

ASP's are in the gutter.... its entirely possible that they haven't lost much overall marketshare seeing how far prices have tumbled.

That being said they'd be better off with higher ASP's and less share.

Yeah, marketshare grabs (at any cost) is not a bright strategy for mature markets w/ entrenched leaders. I could understand the strategy for new emerging markets.

Better to own a 10% niche of the market and actually make profits, then own 40% and lose money.
April 12, 2007 7:05:48 PM

Quote:
"Barcelona is an architecture that must be faster."


:?:
Quote:
"CHIP FIRM AMD is continuing to talk up its forthcoming K10 "Barcelona" microprocessor, and to insist it will beat the competition hands down."

"He acknowledged that much depends on applications"


How can it be "hands down" if "much depends on applications"?

Quote:
but claimed that Intel only showed numbers based on benchmarks rather on real world apps. It only showed benchmarks that favoured its case, he said.


Isn't that what AMD is doing? And if they say that "much depends on applications", implying less RW performance than say PCMark, why are they ragging on Intel for doing what they're also doing?

Quote:
"We aren't losing market share at all."


Quote:
Revenues declined sharply quarter-over-quarter for the Computing Solutions segment, primarily due to lower overall average selling prices and significantly lower unit sales, especially in the resale channel.


lol
April 12, 2007 7:06:14 PM

Quote:
just as technical as AMD is
http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/amatotwo.jpg
enhancements? feature consistancy?
sounds like the same old thing just a bit faster and more cores and stuff

You really need to stop, you're making a total fool of yourself.

K10 is a HELL of a lot more than just "bit faster and more cores and stuff" Wikipedia has a brief article that is a good place to start, do some reading.

Actually beerandcandy is correct. Barcelona is a K8 with stuff added. The process didn't change, they just worked the K8 over with some lipstick and eye shadow. Same fat chick under the dress though.
April 12, 2007 7:08:42 PM

Quote:
Actually beerandcandy is correct. Barcelona is a K8 with stuff added. The process didn't change, they just worked the K8 over with some lipstick and eye shadow. Same fat chick under the dress though.


The changes of K8 => NGA is even more than K7 => K8.
A lot of changes have been described already.
April 12, 2007 7:16:12 PM

Quote:
Actually beerandcandy is correct. Barcelona is a K8 with stuff added. The process didn't change, they just worked the K8 over with some lipstick and eye shadow. Same fat chick under the dress though.


The changes of K8 => NGA is even more than K7 => K8.
A lot of changes have been described already.

Yet plugs into the same socket and will run on the same chipset.
April 12, 2007 7:18:08 PM

Quote:
Actually beerandcandy is correct. Barcelona is a K8 with stuff added. The process didn't change, they just worked the K8 over with some lipstick and eye shadow. Same fat chick under the dress though.


The changes of K8 => NGA is even more than K7 => K8.
A lot of changes have been described already.

Yet plugs into the same socket and will run on the same chipset.

Core 2 Duos and Pentium Ds can be plugged into the same socket and run on the same chipset. Then I should give my Pentium D to you and you give me one C2D. :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 
April 12, 2007 7:20:30 PM

:arrow: Yes this subject has indeed been beaten to death,so far AMD seems to be all talk no benchmarks,their done like dinner I think.
April 12, 2007 7:24:19 PM

Quote:
Actually beerandcandy is correct. Barcelona is a K8 with stuff added. The process didn't change, they just worked the K8 over with some lipstick and eye shadow. Same fat chick under the dress though.


The changes of K8 => NGA is even more than K7 => K8.
A lot of changes have been described already.

Yet plugs into the same socket and will run on the same chipset.

Core 2 Duos and Pentium Ds can be plugged into the same socket and run on the same chipset. Then I should give my Pentium D to you and you give me one C2D. :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

Ok that hurts, but did you have to put the laughy guys in your post also. Fact is that AMD changed their memory controller and added instructions. Not the same as going to Netburst or an integrated memory controller. K10 is a K8 refresh. Penrynn will be a C2D refresh (added cache & instructions).

What do you feel makes it a new Arch????
April 12, 2007 7:28:02 PM

Will K8L knock Intel dead?

We dont know.

But we do know that excessive exposition to heat does kill.
April 12, 2007 7:28:59 PM

Quote:
Ok that hurts, but did you have to put the laughy guys in your post also. Fact is that AMD changed their memory controller and added instructions. Not the same as going to Netburst or an integrated memory controller. K10 is a K8 refresh. Penrynn will be a C2D refresh (added cache & instructions).

What do you feel makes it a new Arch????


Changes in Next Gen. Arch.:
1. Reworked memory controller
2. Reworked cache system (addition of L3 cache and other cache enhancements)
3. Reworked SSE units with wider execution paths for all instructions
4. Reworked power mangement schemes

Changes in Core Arch over Netburst:
1. Shorter pipeline stages
2. Reworked cache system (shared cache system)
3. Reworked SSE units
4. Wider execution units

I don't see the points why you say Core Arch. is a new arch. but not the NGA.
April 12, 2007 7:33:05 PM

super cool!! 68 watt quadcores!?!?! Thats super awesome...I hope K10 CLOBBERS big blue...gotta keep the market competitive
April 12, 2007 7:34:19 PM

STOP CALLING IT K8L!!! IT IS K10 AMD SAYS SO!!.
April 12, 2007 7:52:12 PM

Quote:
Ok that hurts, but did you have to put the laughy guys in your post also. Fact is that AMD changed their memory controller and added instructions. Not the same as going to Netburst or an integrated memory controller. K10 is a K8 refresh. Penrynn will be a C2D refresh (added cache & instructions).

What do you feel makes it a new Arch????


Changes in Next Gen. Arch.:
1. Reworked memory controller
2. Reworked cache system (addition of L3 cache and other cache enhancements)
3. Reworked SSE units with wider execution paths for all instructions
4. Reworked power mangement schemes

Changes in Core Arch over Netburst:
1. Shorter pipeline stages
2. Reworked cache system (shared cache system)
3. Reworked SSE units
4. Wider execution units

I don't see the points why you say Core Arch. is a new arch. but not the NGA.

Yeah, I see your points and if I was smarter I would try to prove them wrong. I thought there was more to P4s, like Hyperthreads, cache tracing,.... I do know that Core and Netburst were designed by entirely different groups at Intel.

Maybe the K8L isn't a K8 after all.
April 12, 2007 7:58:33 PM

Quote:
Yeah, I see your points and if I was smarter I would try to prove them wrong. I thought there was more to P4s, like Hyperthreads, cache tracing,.... I do know that Core and Netburst were designed by entirely different groups at Intel.

Maybe the K8L isn't a K8 after all.


Core Arch. comes from the P6+ Arch.(Banias / Dothan / Yonah family), around 20-40% higher IPC is gained. So I don't think a ~50% IPC gain by NGA from K8 is "magical". :wink:
April 12, 2007 8:10:45 PM

Quote:
Yeah, I see your points and if I was smarter I would try to prove them wrong. I thought there was more to P4s, like Hyperthreads, cache tracing,.... I do know that Core and Netburst were designed by entirely different groups at Intel.

Maybe the K8L isn't a K8 after all.


Core Arch. comes from the P6+ Arch.(Banias / Dothan / Yonah family), around 20-40% higher IPC is gained. So I don't think a ~50% IPC gain by NGA from K8 is "magical". :wink:

Me either, but 50% of 30% slower when the processors don't clock well could mean 10% slower at release speeds.

Ahhh, hell. It don't matter. K10 desk top processors won't be out until winter. It is 1.3 years late to compete against C2D.
April 12, 2007 8:15:32 PM

(please delete)
April 12, 2007 8:19:02 PM

Quote:
Me either, but 50% of 30% slower when the processors don't clock well could mean 10% slower at release speeds.

Ahhh, hell. It don't matter. K10 desk top processors won't be out until winter. It is 1.3 years late to compete against C2D.


If I remember correctly, the time frames for the processors will be as follows:
Agena (quad-core): Q3
Kuma (dual-core with L3 cache): Q3
Rana (dual-core without L3 cache): Q4
Spica (single-core): Q4

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam...

Another important point for the competition:
AMD does not know the existence of Core Arch. when they develop NGA, the successor of Hammer series.
Intel does not know the existence of NGA when they develop Core Arch., the U-turn from the Netburst arch.

So the time frame of NGA will be later than Core Arch., because Intel hitted the thermal obstacle before AMD finished Hammer.
April 12, 2007 8:19:39 PM

You must realize that x86 code is not efficient. Core 2 gained its 20-40% better IPC by using a lot of tweaks. Ganing even more IPC becomes more and more difficult because there are a lot of dependant instructions in x86 code(like conditional jumps , etc). So i don't believe Barcelona's will have a lot better arithmetic IPC than core 2( core 2 has 4 integer units , while barcelona , if i remember well , has only 3). FPU is a different question , it is possible that AMD new cpus will outperform intel's here. So it guess penryn will still lead in ineteger calculations while barcelona may be better in floating point.
BTW , AMD now claims that K8 is better than core 2 , so why do they need a new architecture ? :D 
April 12, 2007 8:39:43 PM

Quote:
Me either, but 50% of 30% slower when the processors don't clock well could mean 10% slower at release speeds.

Ahhh, hell. It don't matter. K10 desk top processors won't be out until winter. It is 1.3 years late to compete against C2D.


If I remember correctly, the time frames for the processors will be as follows:
Agena (quad-core): Q3
Kuma (dual-core with L3 cache): Q3
Rana (dual-core without L3 cache): Q4
Spica (single-core): Q4

http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/modules.php?nam...

Another important point for the competition:
AMD does not know the existence of Core Arch. when they develop NGA, the successor of Hammer series.
Intel does not know the existence of NGA when they develop Core Arch., the U-turn from the Netburst arch.

So the time frame of NGA will be later than Core Arch., because Intel hitted the thermal obstacle before AMD finished Hammer.

Though, isn't AgenaFX launching with Barcelona?
April 12, 2007 8:40:31 PM

Why? If Intel was the only thing out, Intel would still strive to make a better chip.




Anyway, lotta good speculation does except for riles everyone.
April 12, 2007 8:43:07 PM

AMD can claim all they want. I want to see real third party benchmarks from some source other than AMD with regards to K10. Same can be said for Penryn. All of these comparisons are pointless with out REAL data. So far there is *0* out there.

And if anyone calls what AMD's spouting off as real data you really need to take off your fanboy glasses....
a c 99 à CPUs
April 12, 2007 9:17:06 PM

Quote:
thats funny cause from what i read k10 is a glorified/modified k8. from what i could tell they took a k8 and added some features and cores and stuff. plus i think its funny trying to consider k10 with its low-k dialectric being relevent 2 years from now


What do you think the Core 2 Duo is but a Pentium M with some features and cores and stuff? The last CPU that was not simply a modification of a previous one was the NetBurst Pentium 4. But since NetBurst is dead, all Intel chips trace their lineage back to the 1995 P6 Pentium Pro and all AMD chips to the 1999 K7 Athlon. The Core 2 Duo and K8 are pretty thorough reworks of the parent arch, but they are still certainly derivatives. K10 is looking to be a major rework of K8, but not a complete overhaul like the K6 -> K7, Pentium -> Pentium Pro or Pentium III -> NetBurst. There are still bits of the K7 core in the K10 just like there are still parts of the P6 core in the Core 2 Duo.
a c 99 à CPUs
April 12, 2007 9:22:28 PM

Quote:
Why? If Intel was the only thing out, Intel would still strive to make a better chip./quote]

Yeah, and Microsoft strives to make a better OS even though they have a lock-in on most every user. Puh-leaze. Just like MS, Intel would simply make tiny incremental upgrades to chip performance that are just enough to attempt to get people to upgrade every few years. That's what they did in the '80s when they and IBM had the market basically to themselves. It really wasn't until AMD released the Athlon that Intel really tried to step up to the plate and play ball. And it really wasn't until recently that Intel has held much of a performance lead for very long over AMD since the Athlon came out. The P4Bs and P4Cs beat the AXPs, but that wasn't for all that long, a small fraction of the time that the Athlons and Athlon XPs trounced PIIIs and early P4s or Athlon 64s beat Pentium 4s and Ds.
April 12, 2007 9:26:44 PM

Quote:
Why? If Intel was the only thing out, Intel would still strive to make a better chip.


Erm. When Microsoft had the browser market pretty much tied up with IE6, they shut down their browser development, at least until Firefox market share began to scare them. If there ain't no (effective) competition, and the incumbent monopolist doesn't believe there will be (effective) competition, where's the incentive to innovate?

Yeah yeah, I know that a rational monopolist agent will strive to maintain their monopoly even without competition (according to the economist Schumpeter), and Intel may be more rational than Microsoft, but still, that sounds like a hell of an assumption to me :) 
April 12, 2007 9:28:26 PM

Quote:
Yeah, marketshare grabs (at any cost) is not a bright strategy for mature markets w/ entrenched leaders. I could understand the strategy for new emerging markets.
Better to own a 10% niche of the market and actually make profits, then own 40% and lose money.
1960:Toyota, Honda, Nissan...Yeah right. You go girl!
April 12, 2007 9:34:38 PM

Quote:
Yeah, marketshare grabs (at any cost) is not a bright strategy for mature markets w/ entrenched leaders. I could understand the strategy for new emerging markets.
Better to own a 10% niche of the market and actually make profits, then own 40% and lose money.
1960:Toyota, Honda, Nissan...Yeah right. You go girl!

:? You're comparing AMD to Toyota... hahaha.

How about this one... Apple vs. PC??? A little more relevant.
April 12, 2007 9:38:02 PM

Quote:
Yeah, marketshare grabs (at any cost) is not a bright strategy for mature markets w/ entrenched leaders. I could understand the strategy for new emerging markets.
Better to own a 10% niche of the market and actually make profits, then own 40% and lose money.
1960:Toyota, Honda, Nissan...Yeah right. You go girl!
The difference is that Intel is Toyota, hugely profitable, has a premium image that allows it to charge more for products versus competitors despite being able to produce them cheaper. While AMD is GM, but without the market share.

And Toyota, Honda, Nissan did not grow by losing money year after year.
April 12, 2007 9:44:04 PM

Where were you in 1960?
April 12, 2007 9:51:54 PM

Quote:
Where were you in 1960?


Auto industry is a bad analogy to use, since they have completely different business drivers.

I'll use Apple as it is a case study of how to carve out a cash cow niche.

There are plenty of other examples. Why does AMD need to go head to head with Intel on every front?? Carve out a few niches and milk it! In other areas, just meet Intel pricing... don't try to undercut the giant.

AMD just has too few resources and is trying to accomplish way too much.
April 12, 2007 10:09:49 PM

when the whole world of computing is running true 64bit multithreaded programs...i'm sure K10 will beat up C2D/C2Q, i bet a 6000+ spanks a 6600 in some 64bit benchies...but..i'm 2 lazy to look up stuff
April 12, 2007 10:17:07 PM

Quote:
This one is from our favorite news website Inq. :wink:

And Amato claimed: "We aren't losing market share at all." µ


So, what do ya think? Can Barcelona take on the big bad guy, Conroe? I know, I know, this was so much talked about that people are geting sick of it, the only thing missing is Barcelona to actually make a live apearance.

Well once again the leading BS rag of the internet posts crap. You merely quoted the Inqs title, but I looked and looked, and nowhere in that article did they or anyone from Intel say "...... Barcelona K10 will knock Intel dead" The most they said was "He also claimed that the memory connect design of the microprocessor will give it an inherent advantage over Intel's designs.", which in no way shape or form claims to 'knock Intel dead' nor provides any data which could be interpreted as such.

So the big thing I got from this was that the blatently pro-AMD crap rag Inquirer was posting another advertisement for AMD. Big suprise there :roll:
April 12, 2007 10:17:14 PM

Quote:
Why? If Intel was the only thing out, Intel would still strive to make a better chip.


Erm. When Microsoft had the browser market pretty much tied up with IE6, ...

I disagree. I believe there would be enough external pressures to encourage chip development. I dont think the browser 2.0 was high on peoples list.
April 12, 2007 10:32:36 PM

if intel wasn't battling AMD all the time netburst would still be around...imagine the 4ghz pentium D's....They'd have to call their extreme edition the easy bake oven.
April 12, 2007 10:41:35 PM

Quote:
if intel wasn't battling AMD all the time netburst would still be around...imagine the 4ghz pentium D's....They'd have to call their extreme edition the easy bake oven.


Speaking of hot chips that don't overclock for shiz-nat, did you see the benchies on the latest Athlon 64 X2s?
April 12, 2007 10:42:27 PM

Quote:
just as technical as AMD is
http://www.theinquirer.net/images/articles/amatotwo.jpg
enhancements? feature consistancy?
sounds like the same old thing just a bit faster and more cores and stuff

You really need to stop, you're making a total fool of yourself.

K10 is a HELL of a lot more than just "bit faster and more cores and stuff" Wikipedia has a brief article that is a good place to start, do some reading.

First, Wikipedia is crap. They rate lower than the Inquirer for reliability.
Second, he is essentially correct. K10 is a modified K8. It is however extensively modified and if those modifications pan out to perform as good as they look on paper, it will be a very strong CPU. How strong will be determined by benchmarking, but relatively speaking, there is very little in the design that is revolutionary vs evolutionary. For a REAL article concerning K10, from a REAL and RELIABLE source (anandtech) see:

Barcelona Architecture: AMD on the Counterattack


Finally, please dont represent wikipedia as if it is a reliable sourse for technical information, its not a reliable source for any information.
!