Overindulge Yourself with QX6800

The Mach V has an awesome paint job.

What's up with the cooling system in the Armageddon? It looks almost like a cheap kit, smallish pump, 1/4" tubing, small rad. The only thing that makes me think it could handle the temps of the QX6800 is the TEC. But, since the temps supposedly get below ambient, wouldnt condensation on the water coolers tubing be a problem since the TEC isnt strapped to the cpu, but the radiator? Small heatsinks on the 8800's too...

The temp results are missing from the review as well. What's the point of even talking about the cooling if you dont include idle and load temps?

Shouldnt you have held off publishing the review until the ABS unit arrived, fully working? How are you going to post its results now? A part two to this review with a single system?

I'm glad that we finally get a hardware article from Tom's Hardware. However, it would have been great to include full system specs and temps. I mean, I can tell what some of the components are, but what mobo, ram, etc. are you using?

apt403 I understand your concern regarding the cooling system. We have been using our own custom liquid cooling systems for years now as we never found the performance we needed in kits, not to mention we are incredibly picky when it comes to the hardware that is included in our systems. We too at first were skeptical of the benefits of our new cooling system, we have however invested hundreds of hours in its testing and validation and we continue to test it now. What you see in the review is indeed a prototype and some of the rough edges have been smoothed out for our production models improving both esthetics AND performance. There is no fear of condensation as the system monitors itself and regulates its own temperature to eliminate condensations threats.
We really would have loved to send a painted system and showcase our artists abilities (he also works on custom bikes and has been featured on the Discovery Channels Biker Buildoff multiple times as well as Speed Channels Corbins Ride On) but with deadlines as they were and some of the weather problems we have been having in the midwest lately we just didnt have the time to do it and still make the deadline for the review.

The motherboard in both systems is a new evaluation rev. D00 model. Their boards were for evaluation only. You can find a D00 on shelves but hopefully will have an even better follow up build. When the system clocked higher you could actually hear the copper wires vibrating around the ceramic posts. The pitch changed if the frequecy changed. From most builds it is not the CPU that fails but the power via the V-Regs that does. A better board would allow BioHazzard as well as all of the other high end system builders the ability to get more out of their systems.

And to comment on shipping due to the weather... yes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17419067/

It can take a while to restore power, reset the patern of life that was known before the storm. Where I am, an earlier storm put 300,000+ without power. The cold and snow was no problem but the downed trees and lack of power hurt.

A few more bad weather locals...
http://wcco.com/weathernews/local_story_099172955.html
http://wbztv.com/local/local_story_078065101.html
http://wbztv.com/local/local_story_076053449.html

When I first saw "Falcon NW" in the review, I got the usual feeling in my gut, followed by the rolling of the eyes, since I knew this "article" wouldn't be much more than some benchmarketing; with no real white-box comparison benchmarks, temp/noise readings, or anything subjective.

At least I got what I expected. That being said:


I like the FNW cable-management: it's clean, but I wonder how easy it is to maintain (i.e. remove/add cables)? I also liked the soft material they put at the bottom of the case (If I'm reading the pictures right). It makes the inside of the computer feel less "under the hood" with a little more "showroom". Still, it would be nice if FNW was actually able to compete with the likes of Dell in the mainstream. My main gripe is still that they're way overpriced. I've never been a fan of the spray-painting.

The biohazard cooling solution looks AWESOME. It's about time someone came up with a proper TEC solution. Peltier plates have been around for a while, and this seems to be a great implementation. I wonder how effective it is after 10 hours of continuous beating? Also, peltier plates tend to have a short lifespan compared to other components. How is replacement handled?


One last question re. both: Are these machines shipped WITH the water installed, or are they filled and primed after shipping? How is that handled, and if they're filled before they're shipped, how often are there leaks?

It's a shame that these 2 systems couldn't go head-to-head clock-for-clock. It makes any an apples-to-apples comparison impossible, and turns the "Article" into a "Brochure" It also puts Biohazard in a bad position, making it appear inferior to the FNW machine to the casual reader, when really it's different hardware.

This article provides little value to anyone not interested in purchasing one of these machines (hence the term benchmarketing). Yet another misleading THG article title... I thought I'd see something about the QX6800.

a qx6700 clocked to same speed and multiplier should perform the same as the qx6800

is that not correct???? i hear the qx6800 is faster at the same speed/multiplier but why?? same chip? :?:

anyone who pays $1300 for chips is dumb u can can get 10 4800+'s

[quote="Whizzard9992"]

The biohazard cooling solution looks AWESOME. It's about time someone came up with a proper TEC solution. Peltier plates have been around for a while, and this seems to be a great implementation. I wonder how effective it is after 10 hours of continuous beating? Also, peltier plates tend to have a short lifespan compared to other components. How is replacement handled?


One last question re. both: Are these machines shipped WITH the water installed, or are they filled and primed after shipping? How is that handled, and if they're filled before they're shipped, how often are there leaks?
quote]

Thanks for the kudos on the cooling system. If you take a look at our product lineup at our website you can see we are enthusiasts at heart and offer multiple forms of cooling via our different systems. The pelts and the system stand up well. Our production units perform even better and provide drastically improved airflow. The system comes filled, no filling is required on the part of the customer. This cooling system is virtually maintenance free aside from a few blasts of compressed air once dust starts to build up. The exciting aspect is our upcomming cooling management software that actually allows the system to cool PROACTIVELY by monitoring CPU/GPU usage levels and ramping up the cooling accordingly. The system will increase cooling to the components before they have a chance to reach full load temps, as opposed to standard liquid cooling.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about fully utilizing TEC cooling, and you can easily harness the full potential of TEC with Coaxial tubing. The only problem presented in dealing with lower-than-ambient temps is condensation. By isolating the cooled fluid with the heated waste, you elimiate the possibility of condensation.

If the inner-tube contains super-cooled fluid, and the outer-tube contains the heated "waste", then you're completely containing the super-cooled fluid. The radiator only exposes the hot side of the pelt, and only the outer-tubes (hotter than amient) are exposed. The only real "unwanted" thermal transfer occurs between the inner-tube and the outer-tube, and that serves to cool the waste before it hits the radiator. Otherwise, the hot waste can be cooled by the ambient temps.

The more you think about it, the more it becomes this thermal "symphony". Every part serves to benefit the whole. The greater the differential between the cooled tube and the heated tube, the more heat transfer, and the more the waste is cooled before hitting the radiator. Thermal-conductive coaxial tubes would serve to increase the overall efficiency of the system (Just spend some time chewing on it. It becomes clear).

The cold part of the system is completely encapsulated, and never touches ambient temps. The only factor is that your components must be producing a certain amount of heat, since the water temp must be ambient before the transition is made from inner-to-outer tube. That's where your electronics come into play. Also, you need a decent pump since you will be pumping through twice the tubing.

On the hot side of things, it's a common mistake (opinion) to slap a big heat sink on the hot side of a pelt. Peltier plates produce more heat than the surface area can emit; even if the surface area is finned copper. Pelts are limited mainly by how hot the hot side can get, so the more you can remove heat from the hot-side, the more efficient your pelts become. More efficient = Fewer Pelts = Lower PSU = less expensive.

The solution is to create a radiator with a size greater than the surface area of the pelts, and transfer the heat "off-site" using heat pipes. Using a multi-fan radiator (such as the exos) seems silly when compared to a "wind-tunnel" type solution. Air and sound have different dynamics. Sound can be muffled because it is omni-directional, and doesn't reflect well on certain surfaces. Air, on the other-hand, is physical. Given those obvious facts, I don't understand why creating a "silent" radiator is so hard...

For example: you can create a wind-tunnel and bury a heavy-duty fan (or many smaller fans) within a sound-resistant chamber with two openinings on opposite ends. The sound will be muffled, but the air is still forced in one end and out the other, carrying away any heat it encounters along its path

With enough R&D dollars, you can create a computer-case that's not only [nearly] silent, but with a TEC cooling solution to rival phase-change (Cooling might not be as good, but it'll be far less expensive, and you can cool more components).


If you've made it this far, thanks for letting me share my ideas with you.

reliable sources are quoted as saying an "awsome paint job" can add up to 350MHz and 32.1 FPS additional performance
Sweet! Forget Newegg, I'm running to Home Depot for my next upgrade Hey ATI, I see your R600, and I'll raise you Rustoleum!!

Maybe that's why the ABS didn't run, their sticker over the Gigabyte sticker on the 3D Aurora 570 didn't qualify as an "awesome paint job".

Just for the sake of clarity, condensation is not a problem in the Armageddon due to the unit's ability to monitor temperatures and self-correct, however when dealing with super-cooled fluid it can quickly become a real concern. There are many cooling methods that we have experimented with in our labs, however in many instances the feasibility of bringing these methods to market is quickly called into question when trying to make said cooling method presentable and user friendly.

Yes and no. We have done some preliminary testing/measuring, however we are working on some tweaks to the chiller and once completed and tested we will post the results.

I like it when a manufacturer posts to the customer and actually speaks to it. Its the best form of selling (at least to sell me). People have questions and most of the times one can't understand its limitations w/o knowing how and why it was manufactured.

I think the idea of active cooling (cooling before temps reach where they will) with the temp monitor and such is a great idea, but, just a delay, temps will get balanced out.

Nice work... and finally some active cooling from a manufacturer... Its like seeing N2O cars roll from the factory.

I'm kinda annoyed bc it said the video card was showing through or something but they never said what it was...or RAM...or anything else but the CPU.

For that kind of money, i would buy an apple mac pro with 2 quad-core running at 3ghz.

Can run Windows or Os X.

Whizzard, you have a good thinking...but impractical, for instant, your sound and air flow idea. Thinking, knowledge, and experiment have to be together.

Edit: typo

Understood HDDFreak. We generally like to let our reviews speak for themselves as it allows an unbiased third-party the opportunity to convey their opinions on our systems. That said, we do find the forums to be a valuable tool as it gives us the ability to make ourselves available to the readers and answer any questions they may have.

Glad to hear you find some value in our comments. As much as we want to promote our products, we leave that up to our marketing guys, here we just like the ablility to clarify anything that maybe unclear and answer the "Why the hell did they do that?" questions. Our systems are handcrafted by our builders. We pride ourselves on paying attention to the details and honestly it was a hard decision for us to send a prototype as it is not truly representative of the quality, performance and aesthetics found in our production systems. For this review due to the weather delays mentioned and the deadline we were forced to make a choice between a flashy paint job or having our side panels cut. In the end we chose to go with the side panel cutting and modifications as it provides a more representative look at what you would actually be receiving if you were to order the system. That being we are still polishing our production units so to speak and there are numerous upgrades and finishing steps that we did not have time to list in the list of changes we sent. I would list temps here however with no way for a third party to validate them I do not wish to appear as those we are "fixing the numbers". All I will say is that this system has VERY good temps with the added bonus of flexibility. This unit has enough cooling power to cool a dual CPU & dual GPU configuration, even northbridge and southbridge cooling if desired. We also try to be as flexible with our system builds as our standards will allow. If you already own a particular component and wish to have it included in the system, as long as it meets our quality criteria you can send it to us and we will install it in your build...that component will not be covered under our warranty obviously but nonetheless we try to be as accomodating as possible.
In regards to noise, we are not happy with the sound output of the prototype which is why one of the first changes was to implement high CFM/low dba fans all around.
Warranty: We do offer on-site service as well as 24hour support. The on-site service is handled through a network. The on-site service is not meant to tbe the end-all be-all of our support, more like a value add. You can always ship back the system to us for repair or upgrades. However, we offer the on site as an added bonus. For example, say UPS plays Rugby with your system on the way to your house and knocks an HSF loose. Instead of having to send the system back to us and be without it for a few days, we can dispatch a tech to your house to have them reinstall/replace/reseat it so you experience minimal downtime.

In addition to raw performance, we also pride ourselves on offering a true experience as opposed to just a mere product. From build quality to customer service, we strive to make the experience as enjoyable as possible.

Good point on the benchmarks. I'll be honest...we're not happy with the numbers we got, but thats our bed to lie in. We could have chosen to hold back the system and back out on the review due to time constraints, but we do not back out on our customers so we are not going to back out on a review. We made the choice to go with a known Stable Hyper OverClock as opposed to ramping it up higher just to get a larger number with the risk of it being unstable. But again, we made that choice and we live with the numbers we got. One thing of interest, if you look high-res gaming that the 8800's are designed for, despite the CPU OC deficit, our numbers were pretty close, thanks to our GPU SHOC...and this wasnt even a necessarily high GPU SHOC for us. We feel this illustrates that the system-wide overclock approach is going to net you the best overall gains.

Whew. sorry for getting so windy there I hope I answered some of your questions, if you guys have more, keep 'em comming

We have entertained the idea of a customer designed case in the past. I would have to say in reality it would be more of a customer "influenced" case as there are certain design elements that are required for performance etc that might not translate based strictly on a graphic design.

S.H.O.C. is standard but not required, some customers choose not to have their systems overclocked.

I apprecaite the review offer, however while I believe your last remark is in jest, we prefer to earn the benchmarks the hard way

You misunderstand my last comment. I push machines so that they live up to the pedigree of the parts inside. Believe me, it'll earn its marks.

Will do.

Thanks for your presence on the Toms Forumz board. By simply just being around, our opinion of companies like yours grows tremendously.
Regards,
Juan Augustin (DaSickNinja)
Redline/DaClan Editor-in-Chief

Cooling cooling cooling 8O 8O 8O

Just now I'm searching for the ultimate cooling system for my rig I read this. I have the Stacker 830 and I'm running the QX6700 with a Tuniq Tower. I can't get it that one guy said his Zalman is good enough? Maybe he didn't use a good temp program, or he never pushed it.

Anyway, my Tuniq Tower is just good enough to keep it at 70°C under stress measured with core-temp. And they say 65°C is the safe temp to keep below.

Reading this review I became off course very curious about the results. Am I correct that the NWF Mach V is just using a simple setup being one 120mm rad with pump? Or am I missing something? Because when I ask others about it, they all say one 120mm rad will not do it. I will be OC'ing my quad to at least 3.2GHz. Seeing then the Mach V with those high numbers, hmmmm :? It's a shame there are no temps given or more details about that cooling...

Then there is that Boreas Cooling system from Coolit used in the Biohazard. Is this available for us also? Or is it just for OEM's only. And then, can we order just the parts of the Coolit through an OEM?

PS: Another question for the Biohazard man. What is the safe temperature of the QX6700?? In core-temp the Tjunction given is 100°C which is higher then with any other cpu. So for all others they say 65°C. I asked around about the QX6700 but nobody knows. Maybe you?

Thanks

Kibosh

want to bay this http://www.alienware.com/product_d [...] KU-DEFAULT