X1950pro APG and an AMD 3200+

Paul87

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Hi

Im gonna probably buy a X1950 AGP 512MB graphics card for my system whic at the moment is

3200+ AMD64 Socket 754
1.5GB Ram 3200
x800Pro
Abit Kv8Pro

I was wondering is there large proformance increase between the 256MB x1950Pro or 512MB and would i get any bottlenecks putting such a card in the system. Or should wait 8 months until a total upgrade. Any advice would be appreciated.
 

blade85

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performance increase between the two are minimal. The 512 mb version will however handle higher resolutions just slightly better, but not worth it if the price is a fair bit higher.

and your cpu will bottleneck the card to a fair extent but it will easily outperform your current set up by miles :wink:

now wether you want to wait or not is up to u to choose. The card does great for what its worth, the question is do you really need a better card just now, or could you wait till you get yourself a complete system change and possibly go dx10 aswell.
 

Paul87

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thanks for the advice,

my ultimate aim would be at the start of next year to do a complete overhaul of the system, get a quad or dual core processor with a Dx10 card such as the X2900.

The problem I suppose is I like many people i like to play a game at its best, and the X800 and 3200+ is starting to show quite a few limitations.
 

Paul87

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well I have had the idea of upgrading for a while, and cause of costs I have aleady got a PSU and case that should be capable of higher end systems next year.
I have the Thermaltake toughpower 750W modular PSU.

Im thinking about this x1950 its 256MB and £115 (£105 if i use google checkout)
http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/119300


The sapphire 512MB version is £127 after the goole discount.


There is also this OC x1950 card See here
 

ahtze

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Some games depend on CPU.

Example, STALKER, I use to have AMD 3500+ with X1950pro 256mb.

You can only set static lightning with high setting.

if u go beyond static lightning(lowest setting for lighting), the games will be unplayable. Not even with low setting on dynamic ligthing, I think.

After I upgrade to X2 5600, I can set to FULL DYNAMIC LIGHTING(Something like that, not sure haha) with high setting.

Games like Company of Hero, need a faster CPU too for highest setting for Loading. but if u plan to play on medium setting, don't bother to change your CPU.

My conclusion is most games(new games) are design to run better with X2 CPU with a good Graphic card. Older games like Half life 2 doesn't need X2 CPU to run better. for New games, if you plan to play on low-Medium setting, I don't think u need to change CPU too.

One thing I notice is the loading times is ridiculously SLOW(Especially new games) at HIGH SETTING for AMD althon 3500+. If u have X2 5600, the loading will cut in half or even more.

Hope this clear ur doubt.
 

ahtze

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If u plan to upgrade ur CPU too. I suggest to get PCI-E graphic card as most motherboard use PCI-E for new Processor.

Plus, it is cheaper too. Use AGP only if u not planning to change motherboard, i guess.
 

Paul87

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well like i said in my previous post I want to avoid a full upgrade at the moment as the new AMD processors are near and so are the R600's wo which ill probably wait till the end of the year to upgrade,

I really just need something that will keep me going until then with a price tag of around £150 although reading the apg single core article on TomsHardware I noticed that the X1950 seemed to do pretty well and still does considerably better than my X800Pro
 

Dahak

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Performance between the 256 and 512 is negligable,however,many new games are using more video memory all the time,especially at higher resolutions.The 256 version is slightly faster,but the 512 version is more capable.

Dahak

AMD X2-4400+@2.6 TOLEDO
EVGA NF4 SLI MB
2X EVGA 7950GT KO IN SLI
4X 512MB CRUCIAL BALLISTIX DDR500
WD300GIG HD/SAMSUNG 250GIG HD
ACER 22IN WIDESCREEN LCD 1600X1200
THERMALTAKE TOUGHPOWER 850WATT PSU
COOLERMASTER MINI R120
3DMARK05 13,471
 

Paul87

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hmmm so that begs the question is an overclocked x1950 620MHz core/ 1.48Ghz mem with 256MB ram outproform the standard x1950pro 580mhz core/ 1.4Ghz mem with 512Mb Ram

cause it will be between the 512 sapphire and the 256 HIS x1950Pro
 

Gary_Busey

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hmmm so that begs the question is an overclocked x1950 620MHz core/ 1.48Ghz mem with 256MB ram outproform the standard x1950pro 580mhz core/ 1.4Ghz mem with 512Mb Ram

cause it will be between the 512 sapphire and the 256 HIS x1950Pro
Depends on what resolution you plan on playing at. There won't be much, if any, of a difference at 1280x1024 and below, but above that you'll notice the larger amount of ram helping out, although it probably won't be much more noticeable.
 

mapesdhs

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Paul87 writes:
> Im gonna probably buy a X1950 AGP 512MB graphics card for my system whic at
> the moment is

That's what I bought, Sapphire version in my case. Very nice card. Get the 512MB
version, it'll handle higher resolutions & higher quality settings better, and you'll get
more out of it if you up the CPU in the future.

Oh, and even more importantly, if you get a Sapphire, replace the stock cooler with
an ACCELERO X2. For all the rave reviews of the Arctic solution, I was nonetheless
amazed at the huge decrease in GPU temperature. The card used to idle at 50C, shoot
over 75C under load. Now it idles at 35C or less, never goes over 55C under load,
even with Oblivion/Stalker. This should sound even more impressive when I say I've
overclocked it from 580/703 to 641/783; was not remotely expecting to be able to
push it that high once the new cooler was fitted. Has anyone seen oc'd numbers for
an X1950 AGP higher than that? Was I just lucky? I bought the same model for my
brother's system, same new cooler, but can't get his one to go over 627/735 reliably.

Overclocking tip: install Catalyst Control Center and ATI Tray Tools (ATT). Use Catalyst
to unlock the overclocking feature, then use Tray Tools with Driver Level overclocking
to speed up the card. Increase the clocks in steps of 6.75 _only_ (rounded up to 7
if the Apply button doesn't pick up the requested change). Test on each change,
focus more on the core clock than the RAM clock. Works great!


> 3200+ AMD64 Socket 754
> 1.5GB Ram 3200
> x800Pro
> Abit Kv8Pro

Very interesting, kinda similar to my brother's original system that I was upgrading
for him as a present (I bought him the X1950 for xmas :D) His PC had an ASUS mbd
with AthlonXP 2GHz 2400+ which I overclocked to 2.24GHz (outperforms a 3200+
easily), but through a wierd quirk of parts trading (swapped the system's original
GF4 MX-440 for a complete base unit with a guy who wanted a simple gfx card
for use with Gentoo Linux :D), I was able to replace the system with an Asrock mbd
and Athlon64 3400+ 2.4GHz which overclocked easily to 2.64GHz with a better
cooler.

Anyway, point is, my old system was a dual-XEON P4/2.66 2GB RAM, in theory
much more crunch power than the Athlon64, but in practice the XEON's older
& slower RAM (PC2100 ECC) holds it back, ie. RAM speed is important for games.
In tests, the oc'd 3400+ setup is 50% to 100% faster for running 3D games,
3DMark, Cinebench95, etc., with the same gfx card, mostly because it has PC3200
RAM (running at DDR440 with the overclock).

So, you have a system that can make good use of the X1950, if specced accordingly.
Are you running the CPU at default 2.2GHz speed? With better coolers, I was able to
o.c. the 2GHz 2400+ to 2.24GHz, and the 2.4GHz 3400+ to 2.64GHz. Thus, you
should be able to up your 2.2GHz 3200+ to around 2.45GHz reliably, which will also
make the RAM go faster - every bit helps! 8) Best part is, a better cooler doesn't
cost much, and the fan is quieter too (orig AMD cooler on the 3400+ sucked dead
bunnies through a bent straw). I bought a Thermaltake TR2-M3 SE for the AthlonXP
Socket-A, and a Thermaltake TR2-M6 SE(K8) for the Athlon64 Socket 754, with
of course Arctic Silver 5 (though I didn't have the Silver5 when I did the SocketA
cooler swap, so maybe I should redo it, see if I can get even higher o.c. numbers,
though it matters not as I'll likely sell the AthlonXP setup soon).

Also, I see your RAM is 1.5GB. Is that set up to enable dual-channel? If not, but
the feature is available, change the RAM to enable it, eg. 2 x 1GB or whatever is
appropriate. Note that the better speeds with my brother's system were done with
only a single DIMM! Am now awaiting delivery of a 2GB (2 x 1GB) OCZ kit which
should be another speed bost, and the final part of the upgrade for his system. After
seeing the results I was getting with the 3400+, I decided to replace my XEON
system, and so have just bought an Athlon64 X 6000+ which has only become
viable because of the recent huge price drops (the CPU cost 156, less than half
the cost of a Core 2 Duo E6700), along with an Asrock AM2NF3-VSTA nForce3
mbd, 4GB of OCZ Platinum DDR2-800 RAM, new Asus TA861 black case and
Atrix 700W PSU.

If you get the X1950 and later decide to replace the system & keep the gfx, feel free
to email me and I'll fill you in on the speedups obtained with the newer setup, ie.
compared to my brother's Athlon64 with the same card (for fair testing, I can make
both systems run at stock speeds). Heh, and my brother is a lucky git, because the
new mbd is an Asrock K8Upgrade-1689, which can be upgraded to take Socket 939
or AM2 CPUs if required, so if he needs more speed then he can upgrade all the
way up to the same 6000+, and double the max RAM aswell.

Oh!! And here's something I've not seen mentioned anywhere: during my mbd
hunting, while I was still pondering a Core 2 Duo (the E6600 price is more reasonable),
I could not find a _single_ LGA775 DDR2 AGP mbd that supportedthe DDR2 RAM
running at full 800 speed! Every one I looked at had its RAM crippled to no more than
667 or 533. Why?? Maybe there is a mbd out there that can run at 800, but I couldn't
find one, and since RAM speed is important, well, that was it, Core2Duo was out the
window. So, if you have a good AGP card and want a better DDR2 system to put it in,
an AMD setup makes far more sense as you get to run the RAM at max speed.


> I was wondering is there large proformance increase between the 256MB
> x1950Pro or 512MB and would i get any bottlenecks putting such a card in

Not at lower resolutions and/or with fewer visual quality features enabled, but
if you want to run a game at a decent res with AA, AF, etc. then having the
512MB version will definitely help. Would you like me to post some FPS
results for Oblivion for my brother's system once the new RAM arrives? Where
should I post the data? Note that I find the X1950 is able to have various
quality features turned on without affecting frame rates much at all, something
which numerous reviews have shown aswell.

Anyway, all I can say is, you should get good results with an X1950Pro AGP.
Oblivion is glorious, though I think Stalker looks even better.

What model is your mbd btw?


> the system. Or should wait 8 months until a total upgrade. Any advice would
> be appreciated.

Even with my XEON system I was getting very decent results for Oblivion
and Stalker, so I don't think there's any need to wait.

The only thing I would say though, and I'm sure others might agree, is that
there's now at least one company which offers the X1950Pro AGP already fitted
with the ACCELERO X2 cooler, so that might be a better option than the
Sapphire version, unless Sapphire has started to offer the same thing. And
that's another point: the Sapphire stock cooler is loud, whereas the ACCELERO X2
is so quite I can't hear anything at all even with the fan at 100% and card under
heavy load. 8)

Lastly, for reference, my dual-XEON (Dell Precision 650) with the X1950 gives
3DMark06 = 4605, and PCMark2005 = 5419. I should get much better numbers
with the 6000+ though. Can't run these with the Athlon64 until the new RAM
arrives, but I was able to run 3DMark2003: XEON/X1950 gives 14250,
3400+/X1950 gives 15521; at high-res/detail this changes to 7984 and 8904
respectively. The CPU scores in each case were 50% higher on the Athlon. For
3DMark2001, XEON/X1950 = 14250, 3400+/X1950 = 24282. For PCMark2002,
dual-XEON = 6511, 3400+ = 8536 (see what I mean?)

Cheers! :)

Ian.
 

locky28

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If u plan to upgrade ur CPU too. I suggest to get PCI-E graphic card as most motherboard use PCI-E for new Processor.

Plus, it is cheaper too. Use AGP only if u not planning to change motherboard, i guess.

Geez thanks man, Lucky we have well's of wisdom like you around to save our asses.
 

Paul87

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Are you running the CPU at default 2.2GHz speed?
The speed at the moment is more or less stock at 2244Mhz but has the Artic Cooler 64 Pro with the AC Mx-1 paste and idles pretty low about 27-32degrees C and at load at about 39 Degrees C.


Also, I see your RAM is 1.5GB. Is that set up to enable dual-channel?
The 3200+ I use is unfortunately a socket 754 so can only go to single channel for the RAM.

What model is your mbd btw?
The motherboard is this one

The only thing I would say though, and I'm sure others might agree, is that
there's now at least one company which offers the X1950Pro AGP already fitted
with the ACCELERO X2 cooler

I think I may have found it. It’s the
The PowerColor x1950 Pro

Overall my thought in waiting for 8months is due to the new technology coming out this year such as the r600, the new amd and Intel processors. I realise if I keep waiting for the next best thing Ill never upgrade it’s just that I can start to see my system strain which a new graphics card could temporarily solve until I really need to upgrade everything.
 

mapesdhs

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Paul87 wrote:
> The speed at the moment is more or less stock at 2244Mhz but has the Artic Cooler 64
> Pro with the AC Mx-1 paste and idles pretty low about 27-32degrees C and at load at
> about 39 Degrees C.

Excellent! In that case you should be able to whack it up to at least 2.4, probably 2.45
or more.


> The 3200+ I use is unfortunately a socket 754 so can only go to single channel for the RAM.

I got my specs muddled before - my brother's new mbd doesn't support dual-channel:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview.asp?Model=K8Upgrade-1689

but the upgrade boards for it do:

http://www.asrock.com/mb/spec/939CPU%20Board.asp
http://www.asrock.com/mb/spec/AM2CPU%20Board.asp

The AM2 one is obviously better as it permits the use of Athlon64 X2 modules.


> The motherboard is this one

Hmm, I guess you're in that classic position of knowing that a mbd change would
also bring improvements, but that adds more complications, cost, effort, etc. Yet
even with your existing CPU/mbd, an X1950 would still give good results. To give
you some idea, my brother's system gets between 25 and 50fps for Oblivion at
1024x768 with medium quality settings, 4X AA, 8X AF, higher for internal areas.
Good example: standing on the rock by the shore behind the Wawnet Inn, facing the
Inn: 45fps; facing the city: 80 fps; facing the hills: 50fps; facing the end of the
pier: 26fps.


> I think I may have found it. It’s the The PowerColor x1950 Pro

That's the one! A pity Sapphire didn't offer the same thing, I'd have gone for it. However,
the cooler doesn't cost much and installation was easy.


> Overall my thought in waiting for 8months is due to the new technology coming out
> this year such as the r600, the new amd and Intel processors. I realise if I keep waiting

Thing is though, few games really exploit the most out of the features that the next gen
cards will offer, or even the current cards for that matter. Given the time it takes to
develop a game, the newer cards will really only offer speed improvements until
developers can learn the new features and DX10. The X1950 AGP is available now, it's
low cost, and runs what everyone says are the current two most 3D intensive games
pretty well (Oblivion/Stalker).


> ... it’s just that I can start to see my system strain which a new graphics card could
> temporarily solve until I really need to upgrade everything.

I think if you overclock your CPU, then with an X1950 you'll have a very decent setup
for quite some time. If I can be of any help supplying benchmark info, feel free to let me
know. I could run tests on my brother's system with the CPU set to match your setup,
see what it does for Oblivion/Stalker via FRAPS, and the various 3DMark tests, etc. I
would be surprised if you couldn't get at least 2.45GHz with the cooler you have.
Running at the stock 2.4GHz, my brother's PC gets 9206 for 3DMark2005 (8984
without o.c. the gfx).

Oh, one important thing though, make sure your system has a decent PSU, ie. 30A
on the 12V rail. I bought a COLORSit Golden Silent 550W for 22 UKP ($44), partly
because it has _six_ molex connectors (ideal since the X1950 needs two for
power) and it also came with 2 free molex splitters, leaving plenty of connectors for
other devices. I see peope posting about uber gaming PSUs, but such expense
is completely unnecessary.

Cheers! :)

Ian.
 

Talon

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Good upgrade, very happy with mine. Not a big diff between the 256mb and 512mb versions. If budget is a concern and you don't game above 1280x1024 then the 256mb is probably fine. I got the 512mb because it was the first in stock I saw in AGP. I had to go with aftermarket cooling for the Sapphire card but otherwise it runs well and beats the snot out of my old 6800GT :) Enjoy!!
 

mapesdhs

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blade85 wrote:
> long and very detailed....always helps :lol:

:D

Full details/report here (written before I'd decided to get a new system).

Oh yeah, forgot to mention, HyperThreading sucks for systems with more than one CPU.
If turned on, it slows down games by about 4%, but some tasks suffer as much as 40%
with HT on. It's only generally beneficial if a system has just 1 CPU. Otherwise, Windows
seems to be too dumb to work out how best to allocate threads.

Ian.

PS. 6000+ just arrived. 8)
 

Paul87

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I dont really want to buy alot of equipment at the moment as at the moment I cant really afford doing a motherboard CPU upgraded, one of the reasons for the 8 month timeline


Excellent! In that case you should be able to whack it up to at least 2.4, probably 2.45
or more.

what would be good clock and voltage setting for 2.4Mhz, Its around 220Mhz just the voltage needs sorting.


Oh, one important thing though, make sure your system has a decent PSU, ie. 30A
on the 12V rail. I bought a COLORSit Golden Silent 550W for 22 UKP

I have the thermaltake toughpower 750W PSU should be more than a x1950 will ever need.

I think the graphics card I will but when i get my cash in a week will be HIS X1950 Pro

It has a better clock and mem speeds as stock than the sapphire, which will save me modding the card.
 

erocker

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I was in your position a little while ago, I had the same setup and upgraded my motherboard to a used gigabyte 939, for $35, a amdX2 3800 for $100 and an AGP HIS x1950 PRO for $219. All works well and I'm using 2GB of Corsair XMS DDR400.