Vista - this review, its promise and DRM

[slack1_more]

I would like to put forward just a couple of points

1) A review of Windows Vista that glosses over the most controversial issues such as DRM implementation is NOT a review, it's a Micro$oft advert. Shame on you TGH! This NOT "...the information (we) need to know."!
It's already been posted by Zorg, but I urge you to read ALL of:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

The implications included in that article go to the very foundations of using Vista and the hardware on which it should (and can) be run. Fundamental information! Missing altogether from your article. Mr Tan take note!

2) The other (relatively minor) issue I have with this so-called review is that it does not mention at any stage what a compromise the current version is with respect to all the promises made by Microsoft. As I say, not very important, but it serves to make potential buyers think about what they are getting for the money and what is still outstanding. I wonder how much will be charged when those extra features become available?

 

[HotFoot]

EDIT: removed comment, originally [Firstly, this thread is in the wrong place. Is it possible to relocate it somewhere more appropriate?].

Secondly, I find this topic to be very important. The DRM issues involved with Vista are the #2 reason I won't be buying this OS unless I have to (#1 reason is why spend $200-400 when XP and Ubuntu do what I want already).

Say you've just bought Pink Floyd's “The Dark Side of the Moon”, released as a Super Audio CD (SACD) in its 30th anniversary edition in 2003, and you want to play it under Vista. Since the S/PDIF link to your amplifier/speakers is regarded as insecure for playing the SA content, Vista disables it, and you end up hearing a performance by Marcel Marceau instead of Pink Floyd.

This is an extremely important point for me. To "upgrade" to a new OS and lose core functionality is a deal-breaker for me. Certainly my HTPC will be running a version of Linux. Built for the community, by the community. My computer, that I paid for, should serve me, not content producers. Let me pay them for content, and then let me use it the way I want.

My question is this: will I be able to buy Blue-Ray or HD DVD media and play it in a dual-format optical drive using a linux OS? Or does using these formats also require that I use Vista, and buy an entire new set of HDCP-compliant hardware (actual compliance, not just the manuf. saying it is HDCP ready)? This would mean that it's certainly going to be cheaper to just use a dual-format stand-alone player. This whole fiasco is the opposite of consumer electronics convergence.

I want a HTPC that controls my digital cable, plays rented movies, plays games, and stores the contents of my music and movie library on the hard drives so I can have everything at my fingertips. I'm willing to pay to set this up. The HTPC will be the nerve centre of my entertainment system. It seems that the latest round of counter-piracy actions means that I won't be able to set up such a system. It seems that it would be easier for me to start pirating all the content, so that I could at least use it the way I want to.

 

[tekzor]

no one is forcing you to buy vista. High rec for vista insures great playback in the future. Every OS goes through this. Most people will be getting vista through upgrade offers(legit free ones). The rest will be bulk purchase for enterprises and schools.

 

[clue69less]

no one is forcing you to buy vista. High rec for vista insures great playback in the future. Every OS goes through this.

I disagree. This is a whole new playing field that MS is trying to sell and it's heaped on top of the largest pile of BS greed I've ever witnessed. I hope that the backlash is significant and that MS suffers at least a fraction of what Sony did for their cute little rootkit. (granted: apples and oranges but both inspired by bald-faced greed)

 

[stefx]

This thread is in the wrong section. It belongs in software/Vista

 

[Zorg]

Hotfoot,

This thread is located here because that is the only way to get it on the main page. Of any thread on the main page this is certainly the most important. Also, this article (A MUST READ) shows how Vista affects every component of the computer hardware, including CPU & GPU so it is in the right place. I cannot take credit for this link. I saw it on another thread and cannot remember where, so the credit goes to someone else. The magnitude of the damage to the computer industry and computer users is astronomical. Given the fact that the hardware manufacturers are "owned" by Microsoft, due to the need to sell their products, it is up to us, the user, to get the word out and stop this insane DRM, if it is not already too late. Please Take the time and energy necessary to read the article in it's entirety. Get the word out.

 

[Zorg]

You are sadly mistaken. See my response to HotFoot

Edit: It's clear that you didn't read the article if your only concern is where this is posted. Try reading the article.

 

[HotFoot]

My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.

What I mean is, in a year's time, will I be able to buy a blue-ray or dual-format optical drive for my computer, run Ubuntu, and expect to play HD movies? If MS is re-writing the rules so that the ONLY way to use the new media contents is through their OS, then this is so incredibly anti-competitive that the authorities should be stepping in protecting the industry. It seems that MS is using their current market position to close down hardware supporting open-source projects.

What I expect I will be forced to do is to use some semi-legal software to rip the content of a movie from the HD disk so that I can play the show with the quality I want. I believe this will technically be illegal, since I will be subverting the encryption built into the media. It seems I'm being forced to either give up free choice as a consumer or break the law.

 

[HotFoot]

I finished reading the whole article. It's alarming. At the same time, I am cynical enough to believe it may be very close to the truth. This seems like MS has perfected the Sony rootkit and now it can infect every part of your computer. I mean that by analogy, not that this and the rootkit are functionally similar.

If the predictions of the article turn out to be true, will there be a class-action lawsuit against MS for what it's doing to consumers? I fully expect that it is indeed too late to change how Vista will unfold on the market, and how this is likely to affect hardware down the road. What are the chances that manufacturers will produce products to work with everything except Vista? I can't imagine that will happen, but if it does I'll be in line to buy them.

 

[Zorg]

My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.

What I mean is, in a year's time, will I be able to buy a blue-ray or dual-format optical drive for my computer, run Ubuntu, and expect to play HD movies? If MS is re-writing the rules so that the ONLY way to use the new media contents is through their OS, then this is so incredibly anti-competitive that the authorities should be stepping in protecting the industry. It seems that MS is using their current market position to close down hardware supporting open-source projects.

What I expect I will be forced to do is to use some semi-legal software to rip the content of a movie from the HD disk so that I can play the show with the quality I want. I believe this will technically be illegal, since I will be subverting the encryption built into the media. It seems I'm being forced to either give up free choice as a consumer or break the law.

Your starting to get the picture. Don't miss the fact that hardware and drivers will need to be redesigned to accommodate this insanity. We will pay for this with higher prices. Not to mention the fact that M$ will be able to disable or cripple hardware and drivers that do not comply eg., hacked, or for any reason they deem acceptable. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, YOU MUST COMPLY.

 

[tekzor]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

 

[Zorg]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

OK you stay a man and don't panic like a little school girl. But, first who wants a MAC and second the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. Apparently you didn't read the whole article. It sounds like you skimmed it, or you would be as frightened as a little school girl. You could say M$ stupid, or you could say M$ bold. Don't think for one second that they are not that bold.

 

[clue69less]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

Hey, I am getting closer and closer to adding a Mac back into our network here at home. Not just because of Vista but because we do so many image, video and music on our computers, it just makes sense. Also, Tiger sounds so much more aggro than Vista. Vista sounds like a bunch of old people playing cards at the home.

 

[tekzor]

I want a mac...your point?

 

[clue69less]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

OK you stay a man and don't panic like a little school girl. But, first who wants a MAC and second the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. Apparently you didn't read the whole article. It sounds like you skimmed it, or you would be as frightened as a little school girl. You could say M$ stupid, or you could say M$ bold. Don't think for one second that they are not that bold.

Don't degenerate this into name-calling. Stay on topic.

 

[fredgiblet]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

NOOOO!!! Don't give in to the dark side!! If you must drop Windows go to LINUX, not Mac!!!

 

[Zorg]

I want a mac...your point?

If you want a MAC by all means buy one. If I was you I would buy it soon because the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. And after M$ pulls this off what makes you think Apple won't follow suite, of course only for the good of DRM.

 

[Zorg]

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol:
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.

NOOOO!!! Don't give in to the dark side!! If you must drop Windows go to LINUX, not Mac!!!

Unfortunately, MAC, Linux and any other OS out there will be affected by this M$ coup. This will affect every part of the computer industry. There will be nowhere to run.

 

[mad_murdock]

So I'm not sure what all the excitement is about. I see the part, where on paper, this "Could lead" to longer development on new components and that Hollywood have veto power is a bit odd. But if I step back for a second, I have to ask "But who does this really hurt"

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk. I follow the laws and I don't get hurt. Sure I might have to pay a few dollars more and I might have to buy some new equipment down the road, but is that all part of the Vista Compliant specs anyway ? If I'm not compliant I don't need to buy Vista.

So isn't all this screaming really by the people who's pirating ways are coming to an end ? The war on Drugs costs me. The war on terror costs me. Why should the war on Pirating not cost me ?

What am I not getting here ?

 

[Zorg]

So I'm not sure what all the excitement is about. I see the part, where on paper, this "Could lead" to longer development on new components and that Hollywood have veto power is a bit odd. But if I step back for a second, I have to ask "But who does this really hurt"

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk. I follow the laws and I don't get hurt. Sure I might have to pay a few dollars more and I might have to buy some new equipment down the road, but is that all part of the Vista Compliant specs anyway ? If I'm not compliant I don't need to buy Vista.

So isn't all this screaming really by the people who's pirating ways are coming to an end ? The war on Drugs costs me. The war on terror costs me. Why should the war on Pirating not cost me ?

What am I not getting here ?

I can't understand how you could have come to that conclusion after reading the full article. Let me make it clear, this isn't solely related to HD playback. It will cripple the computer and the industry in more ways than one. By the way, the Chinese etc. are going to break any DRM put in place by M$, and are still going to flood the market with pirated HD content.

 

[clue69less]

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk.

We have four people in our family and own six MP3 players. As I understand it, when fully implemented, DRM will allow me to only copy music to part of our MP3 player collection. If I want to have MP3 copies of our CD collection on every computer in the house (we have 9) I think that should be fine and dandy but MS and the RIAA disagree and will use DRM to stop me.

When someone gets overly controlling while trying to insure that their wealth grows beyond realistic proportions, it creates a market for those that rebel. I can't see long term success for DRM and those that promote it. I will not shed a tear if DRM leads to the fall of MS.

 

[Zorg]

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk.

We have four people in our family and own six MP3 players. As I understand it, when fully implemented, DRM will allow me to only copy music to part of our MP3 player collection. If I want to have MP3 copies of our CD collection on every computer in the house (we have 9) I think that should be fine and dandy but MS and the RIAA disagree and will use DRM to stop me.

When someone gets overly controlling while trying to insure that their wealth grows beyond realistic proportions, it creates a market for those that rebel. I can't see long term success for DRM and those that promote it. I will not shed a tear if DRM leads to the fall of MS.

Clue69Less,

Understand that my intention is not to offend you but I think that you are missing the point. Vista's DRM HDCP as it is now set to be implemented has far greater implications than how many computers on which you can have your music. I am trying not to post excerpts of the article and there are so many points that it is hard to pick one. Look in the index for "system reliability" and .. I can't choose there all staggering.

 

[HotFoot]

The point of fair usage is extremely important. It was only recently that a British court struck down a 300 year old law that forbid duplication of copyrighted material for personal use (CD -> mp3). This is my number one concern: once I've paid the content people for an album/movie, etc., I should be able to use it the way I want. DRM violates this right. It makes it easier for me to turn to piracy so I can have the content I'm willing to pay for, but in a format that's actually useful to me.

 

[Zorg]

The point of fair usage is extremely important. It was only recently that a British court struck down a 300 year old law that forbid duplication of copyrighted material for personal use (CD -> mp3). This is my number one concern: once I've paid the content people for an album/movie, etc., I should be able to use it the way I want. DRM violates this right. It makes it easier for me to turn to piracy so I can have the content I'm willing to pay for, but in a format that's actually useful to me.

You are right fair usage is important, but that pales in comparison to the revelations in the article. Don't loose sight of what is happening to the computer industry. Am I the only one that can see the gravity of what M$ is trying to pull off?

 

[HotFoot]

It's too bad that HD content isn't already widespread, so that the common user would be reading reviews about how you can't even play movies on your computer any more. The fact is that Vista will have already sold tens or hundreds of millions of copies before this aspect comes to light. Perhaps it will drive more people away from MS products. The greater the market share using open-source the better, as far as I'm concerned. 20% or more of the market share used linux, I bet that game developers and hardware manufacturers would have a greater level of support for that OS.

As it is, I've already had to change my hardware purchasing habits because of my desire to use linux. I found that there was no support for my older ATI card, so I pawned it and bought an NVIDIA one. As the linux community grows, I think there is hope that hardware designed to serve the user will continue to be manufactured, even if this hardware isn't stamped Vista-approved.