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Vista - this review, its promise and DRM

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January 24, 2007 12:53:31 PM

I would like to put forward just a couple of points

1) A review of Windows Vista that glosses over the most controversial issues such as DRM implementation is NOT a review, it's a Micro$oft advert. Shame on you TGH! This NOT "...the information (we) need to know."!
It's already been posted by Zorg, but I urge you to read ALL of:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.h...

The implications included in that article go to the very foundations of using Vista and the hardware on which it should (and can) be run. Fundamental information! Missing altogether from your article. Mr Tan take note!

2) The other (relatively minor) issue I have with this so-called review is that it does not mention at any stage what a compromise the current version is with respect to all the promises made by Microsoft. As I say, not very important, but it serves to make potential buyers think about what they are getting for the money and what is still outstanding. I wonder how much will be charged when those extra features become available?
January 24, 2007 3:49:49 PM

EDIT: removed comment, originally [Firstly, this thread is in the wrong place. Is it possible to relocate it somewhere more appropriate?].

Secondly, I find this topic to be very important. The DRM issues involved with Vista are the #2 reason I won't be buying this OS unless I have to (#1 reason is why spend $200-400 when XP and Ubuntu do what I want already).

Quote:
Say you've just bought Pink Floyd's “The Dark Side of the Moon”, released as a Super Audio CD (SACD) in its 30th anniversary edition in 2003, and you want to play it under Vista. Since the S/PDIF link to your amplifier/speakers is regarded as insecure for playing the SA content, Vista disables it, and you end up hearing a performance by Marcel Marceau instead of Pink Floyd.


This is an extremely important point for me. To "upgrade" to a new OS and lose core functionality is a deal-breaker for me. Certainly my HTPC will be running a version of Linux. Built for the community, by the community. My computer, that I paid for, should serve me, not content producers. Let me pay them for content, and then let me use it the way I want.

My question is this: will I be able to buy Blue-Ray or HD DVD media and play it in a dual-format optical drive using a linux OS? Or does using these formats also require that I use Vista, and buy an entire new set of HDCP-compliant hardware (actual compliance, not just the manuf. saying it is HDCP ready)? This would mean that it's certainly going to be cheaper to just use a dual-format stand-alone player. This whole fiasco is the opposite of consumer electronics convergence.

I want a HTPC that controls my digital cable, plays rented movies, plays games, and stores the contents of my music and movie library on the hard drives so I can have everything at my fingertips. I'm willing to pay to set this up. The HTPC will be the nerve centre of my entertainment system. It seems that the latest round of counter-piracy actions means that I won't be able to set up such a system. It seems that it would be easier for me to start pirating all the content, so that I could at least use it the way I want to.
January 24, 2007 4:22:26 PM

no one is forcing you to buy vista. High rec for vista insures great playback in the future. Every OS goes through this. Most people will be getting vista through upgrade offers(legit free ones). The rest will be bulk purchase for enterprises and schools.
Related resources
January 24, 2007 4:36:08 PM

Quote:
no one is forcing you to buy vista. High rec for vista insures great playback in the future. Every OS goes through this.


I disagree. This is a whole new playing field that MS is trying to sell and it's heaped on top of the largest pile of BS greed I've ever witnessed. I hope that the backlash is significant and that MS suffers at least a fraction of what Sony did for their cute little rootkit. (granted: apples and oranges but both inspired by bald-faced greed)
January 24, 2007 4:37:14 PM

This thread is in the wrong section. It belongs in software/Vista
January 24, 2007 4:38:42 PM

Hotfoot,

This thread is located here because that is the only way to get it on the main page. Of any thread on the main page this is certainly the most important. Also, this article (A MUST READ) shows how Vista affects every component of the computer hardware, including CPU & GPU so it is in the right place. I cannot take credit for this link. I saw it on another thread and cannot remember where, so the credit goes to someone else. The magnitude of the damage to the computer industry and computer users is astronomical. Given the fact that the hardware manufacturers are "owned" by Microsoft, due to the need to sell their products, it is up to us, the user, to get the word out and stop this insane DRM, if it is not already too late. Please Take the time and energy necessary to read the article in it's entirety. Get the word out.
January 24, 2007 4:40:38 PM

You are sadly mistaken. See my response to HotFoot

Edit: It's clear that you didn't read the article if your only concern is where this is posted. Try reading the article.
January 24, 2007 4:41:34 PM

My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.

What I mean is, in a year's time, will I be able to buy a blue-ray or dual-format optical drive for my computer, run Ubuntu, and expect to play HD movies? If MS is re-writing the rules so that the ONLY way to use the new media contents is through their OS, then this is so incredibly anti-competitive that the authorities should be stepping in protecting the industry. It seems that MS is using their current market position to close down hardware supporting open-source projects.

What I expect I will be forced to do is to use some semi-legal software to rip the content of a movie from the HD disk so that I can play the show with the quality I want. I believe this will technically be illegal, since I will be subverting the encryption built into the media. It seems I'm being forced to either give up free choice as a consumer or break the law.
January 24, 2007 4:47:54 PM

I finished reading the whole article. It's alarming. At the same time, I am cynical enough to believe it may be very close to the truth. This seems like MS has perfected the Sony rootkit and now it can infect every part of your computer. I mean that by analogy, not that this and the rootkit are functionally similar.

If the predictions of the article turn out to be true, will there be a class-action lawsuit against MS for what it's doing to consumers? I fully expect that it is indeed too late to change how Vista will unfold on the market, and how this is likely to affect hardware down the road. What are the chances that manufacturers will produce products to work with everything except Vista? I can't imagine that will happen, but if it does I'll be in line to buy them.
January 24, 2007 4:50:10 PM

Quote:
My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.

What I mean is, in a year's time, will I be able to buy a blue-ray or dual-format optical drive for my computer, run Ubuntu, and expect to play HD movies? If MS is re-writing the rules so that the ONLY way to use the new media contents is through their OS, then this is so incredibly anti-competitive that the authorities should be stepping in protecting the industry. It seems that MS is using their current market position to close down hardware supporting open-source projects.

What I expect I will be forced to do is to use some semi-legal software to rip the content of a movie from the HD disk so that I can play the show with the quality I want. I believe this will technically be illegal, since I will be subverting the encryption built into the media. It seems I'm being forced to either give up free choice as a consumer or break the law.


Your starting to get the picture. Don't miss the fact that hardware and drivers will need to be redesigned to accommodate this insanity. We will pay for this with higher prices. Not to mention the fact that M$ will be able to disable or cripple hardware and drivers that do not comply eg., hacked, or for any reason they deem acceptable. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE, YOU MUST COMPLY.
January 24, 2007 4:58:47 PM

il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.
January 24, 2007 5:09:39 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


OK you stay a man and don't panic like a little school girl. But, first who wants a MAC and second the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. Apparently you didn't read the whole article. It sounds like you skimmed it, or you would be as frightened as a little school girl. You could say M$ stupid, or you could say M$ bold. Don't think for one second that they are not that bold.
January 24, 2007 5:11:02 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


Hey, I am getting closer and closer to adding a Mac back into our network here at home. Not just because of Vista but because we do so many image, video and music on our computers, it just makes sense. Also, Tiger sounds so much more aggro than Vista. Vista sounds like a bunch of old people playing cards at the home.
January 24, 2007 5:11:10 PM

I want a mac...your point?
January 24, 2007 5:13:04 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


OK you stay a man and don't panic like a little school girl. But, first who wants a MAC and second the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. Apparently you didn't read the whole article. It sounds like you skimmed it, or you would be as frightened as a little school girl. You could say M$ stupid, or you could say M$ bold. Don't think for one second that they are not that bold.

Don't degenerate this into name-calling. Stay on topic.
January 24, 2007 5:15:11 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


NOOOO!!! Don't give in to the dark side!! If you must drop Windows go to LINUX, not Mac!!!
January 24, 2007 5:17:09 PM

Quote:
I want a mac...your point?


If you want a MAC by all means buy one. If I was you I would buy it soon because the hardware will still need to be compliant with Vista. And after M$ pulls this off what makes you think Apple won't follow suite, of course only for the good of DRM.
January 24, 2007 5:31:31 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


NOOOO!!! Don't give in to the dark side!! If you must drop Windows go to LINUX, not Mac!!!

Unfortunately, MAC, Linux and any other OS out there will be affected by this M$ coup. This will affect every part of the computer industry. There will be nowhere to run.
January 24, 2007 5:55:54 PM

So I'm not sure what all the excitement is about. I see the part, where on paper, this "Could lead" to longer development on new components and that Hollywood have veto power is a bit odd. But if I step back for a second, I have to ask "But who does this really hurt"

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk. I follow the laws and I don't get hurt. Sure I might have to pay a few dollars more and I might have to buy some new equipment down the road, but is that all part of the Vista Compliant specs anyway ? If I'm not compliant I don't need to buy Vista.

So isn't all this screaming really by the people who's pirating ways are coming to an end ? The war on Drugs costs me. The war on terror costs me. Why should the war on Pirating not cost me ?

What am I not getting here ?
January 24, 2007 6:06:47 PM

Quote:
So I'm not sure what all the excitement is about. I see the part, where on paper, this "Could lead" to longer development on new components and that Hollywood have veto power is a bit odd. But if I step back for a second, I have to ask "But who does this really hurt"

I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk. I follow the laws and I don't get hurt. Sure I might have to pay a few dollars more and I might have to buy some new equipment down the road, but is that all part of the Vista Compliant specs anyway ? If I'm not compliant I don't need to buy Vista.

So isn't all this screaming really by the people who's pirating ways are coming to an end ? The war on Drugs costs me. The war on terror costs me. Why should the war on Pirating not cost me ?

What am I not getting here ?


I can't understand how you could have come to that conclusion after reading the full article. Let me make it clear, this isn't solely related to HD playback. It will cripple the computer and the industry in more ways than one. By the way, the Chinese etc. are going to break any DRM put in place by M$, and are still going to flood the market with pirated HD content.
January 24, 2007 6:16:46 PM

Quote:
I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk.


We have four people in our family and own six MP3 players. As I understand it, when fully implemented, DRM will allow me to only copy music to part of our MP3 player collection. If I want to have MP3 copies of our CD collection on every computer in the house (we have 9) I think that should be fine and dandy but MS and the RIAA disagree and will use DRM to stop me.

When someone gets overly controlling while trying to insure that their wealth grows beyond realistic proportions, it creates a market for those that rebel. I can't see long term success for DRM and those that promote it. I will not shed a tear if DRM leads to the fall of MS.
January 24, 2007 6:32:57 PM

Quote:
I don't steal movies, music or other protected content. So what do I care about all this DRM talk.


We have four people in our family and own six MP3 players. As I understand it, when fully implemented, DRM will allow me to only copy music to part of our MP3 player collection. If I want to have MP3 copies of our CD collection on every computer in the house (we have 9) I think that should be fine and dandy but MS and the RIAA disagree and will use DRM to stop me.

When someone gets overly controlling while trying to insure that their wealth grows beyond realistic proportions, it creates a market for those that rebel. I can't see long term success for DRM and those that promote it. I will not shed a tear if DRM leads to the fall of MS.

Clue69Less,

Understand that my intention is not to offend you but I think that you are missing the point. Vista's DRM HDCP as it is now set to be implemented has far greater implications than how many computers on which you can have your music. I am trying not to post excerpts of the article and there are so many points that it is hard to pick one. Look in the index for "system reliability" and .. I can't choose there all staggering.
January 24, 2007 6:40:17 PM

The point of fair usage is extremely important. It was only recently that a British court struck down a 300 year old law that forbid duplication of copyrighted material for personal use (CD -> mp3). This is my number one concern: once I've paid the content people for an album/movie, etc., I should be able to use it the way I want. DRM violates this right. It makes it easier for me to turn to piracy so I can have the content I'm willing to pay for, but in a format that's actually useful to me.
January 24, 2007 6:48:58 PM

Quote:
The point of fair usage is extremely important. It was only recently that a British court struck down a 300 year old law that forbid duplication of copyrighted material for personal use (CD -> mp3). This is my number one concern: once I've paid the content people for an album/movie, etc., I should be able to use it the way I want. DRM violates this right. It makes it easier for me to turn to piracy so I can have the content I'm willing to pay for, but in a format that's actually useful to me.


You are right fair usage is important, but that pales in comparison to the revelations in the article. Don't loose sight of what is happening to the computer industry. Am I the only one that can see the gravity of what M$ is trying to pull off?
January 24, 2007 6:54:36 PM

It's too bad that HD content isn't already widespread, so that the common user would be reading reviews about how you can't even play movies on your computer any more. The fact is that Vista will have already sold tens or hundreds of millions of copies before this aspect comes to light. Perhaps it will drive more people away from MS products. The greater the market share using open-source the better, as far as I'm concerned. 20% or more of the market share used linux, I bet that game developers and hardware manufacturers would have a greater level of support for that OS.

As it is, I've already had to change my hardware purchasing habits because of my desire to use linux. I found that there was no support for my older ATI card, so I pawned it and bought an NVIDIA one. As the linux community grows, I think there is hope that hardware designed to serve the user will continue to be manufactured, even if this hardware isn't stamped Vista-approved.
January 24, 2007 7:01:49 PM

Quote:
You are sadly mistaken. See my response to HotFoot

Edit: It's clear that you didn't read the article if your only concern is where this is posted. Try reading the article.


It's neither sad nor mistaken. It's a simple objective fact that this threads belong in the appropriate section.

Threads about Vista belong in the Vista section, and threads abouts heatsinks belong in the heatsink section.
January 24, 2007 7:02:56 PM

Quote:
It's too bad that HD content isn't already widespread, so that the common user would be reading reviews about how you can't even play movies on your computer any more. The fact is that Vista will have already sold tens or hundreds of millions of copies before this aspect comes to light. Perhaps it will drive more people away from MS products. The greater the market share using open-source the better, as far as I'm concerned. 20% or more of the market share used linux, I bet that game developers and hardware manufacturers would have a greater level of support for that OS.

As it is, I've already had to change my hardware purchasing habits because of my desire to use linux. I found that there was no support for my older ATI card, so I pawned it and bought an NVIDIA one. As the linux community grows, I think there is hope that hardware designed to serve the user will continue to be manufactured, even if this hardware isn't stamped Vista-approved.


I agree M$ is trying to get enough copies in the field (and it's probably too late) and then invoke the DRM. Read the section "Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support" and understand Linux will not save you.
January 24, 2007 7:12:15 PM

Quote:
My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.


Unless you've got some links to info that I've never seen, that's not MS, that's the studios that produce HD content.

As I understand the issues, your choices are no DRM, and no support for HD DVD/Blu-Ray in full resolution (if the studios turn the flags on) or you get DRM.

I don't like it, but these standards are being forced on MS (and presumably Apple) by the MPAA.
January 24, 2007 7:12:24 PM

Will Vista have 64bit drivers for the Zalman 9700 ?
January 24, 2007 7:12:32 PM

Quote:
no one is forcing you to buy vista. High rec for vista insures great playback in the future. Every OS goes through this.


I disagree. This is a whole new playing field that MS is trying to sell and it's heaped on top of the largest pile of BS greed I've ever witnessed. I hope that the backlash is significant and that MS suffers at least a fraction of what Sony did for their cute little rootkit. (granted: apples and oranges but both inspired by bald-faced greed)

I don't think "bald-faced greed" quite discribes the situation. If the article is correct, the line saying that "The Vista Content Specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history" may be all to true. Welcome to the reality of Orwell's 1984, only its happening in 2007.

The only question I really see is if Vista will be Microsoft's suicide or it will be the suicide of all those who use it. But that gets to the sticking point. If the hardware industry as a whole goes along with the Microsoft plan, then everyone who uses a computer will be affected. Vista will become the only game in town whether we like it or not. Linux, Apple, and others will be affected because no hardware will work properly with their OS's. That may sound radical, but I remember when IBM had OS/2. It was drowned out by Microsoft when both hardware and software companies had the option of making products for OS/2 or for Microsoft. I'm not saying that OS/2 was a better OS, but rather the results of the contest.

In the meantime, it puts a lot of people in a quandry. If Vista becomes a big seller and the only game in town, then the people will be stuck with it whether they like it or not. I myself see this as a reason to migrate to Linux, if only to give the proverbial finger towards Microsoft. But if the the hardware, software, and CD/DVD people go the way of Microsoft and Vista, then I'll be in the position of someone trying to buy stuff that works on OS/2, lost and hopeless. At least I can hold on to XP for a while, though I would wonder if at some point Microsoft brings in a "Critical Patch" that introduces the nighmare into XP with no one knowing, until its too late.
January 24, 2007 7:18:03 PM

Heh. Right now I guess I just need to know which will give me the smallest fine or least jail time: downloading pirated HD content or using software that cracks the encryption of legally purchased HD content. Any lawyers out there?
January 24, 2007 7:19:08 PM

Quote:
My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.


Unless you've got some links to info that I've never seen, that's not MS, that's the studios that produce HD content.

As I understand the issues, your choices are no DRM, and no support for HD DVD/Blu-Ray in full resolution (if the studios turn the flags on) or you get DRM.

I don't like it, but these standards are being forced on MS (and presumably Apple) by the MPAA.

Respectfully, that is BS. M$ is attempting to control the HDCP channel. The MPAA can't force anything. Here is the link to the article with all of the scary information. Pleas read it in it's entirety.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.h...
January 24, 2007 7:21:15 PM

Quote:
Heh. Right now I guess I just need to know which will give me the smallest fine or least jail time: downloading pirated HD content or using software that cracks the encryption of legally purchased HD content. Any lawyers out there?


If you can show that you had no idea that you were downloading pirated software, you will have the easiest time. Using the cracking software impies the knowledge that you knew what you were doing was illegal in the first place.
January 24, 2007 7:29:45 PM

I also have an mp3 player, for which part of the cost to me was a standard fee paid to content companies, just as used to be charged for other recordable media. The idea behind the charge was that the content companies are losing money due to piracy, so they should charge people who buy recordable media, which is sometimes used to store pirated content.

Now, this fee was removed recently because it had come up in a court case that since people buying recordable media and mp3 players had paid a fee to the content producers since it was assumed that people who buy things pirate content, then these people have the right to pirate content. Now that fee has been removed, but I never got a refund. So how many movies am I allowed to download without paying?

It's all ridiculous. First priority should be not alienating the majority of customers who just want to enjoy entertainment content and are happy enough to pay the artists/producers for it. All this DRM crap does is annoy this crowd. People who are already willing to pirate the content are presumably smart enough to figure out ways around the content protection anyway, so in the end the companies have stopped zero pirating and annoyed their faithful customers.

For me, I'm hoping that more independent entertainment businesses sprout up, using formats such as youtube to spread their content, or at least samples. It's easier and easier for people to produce good-quality media on their own. How much longer will artists need record labels?
January 24, 2007 7:41:50 PM

You're right, it is all ridiculous. As I see it, most of the problem occurs because the CDs and DVDs carry way too high a pricetag compared to what they really cost. It also does annoy and alienate the consumers. When prices get out of hand, people find ways to avoid paying the price.

DRM will probably kill a lot of the industry. At least I hope it does. If the majority of people refuse to buy the new stuff, then the companies may change the way they're doing business. What ever happened to the idea that the customer is always right? Now they seem to think that they can dictate what the customer can buy, rather then what he wants to buy.
January 24, 2007 7:50:38 PM

Quote:
il wait to panic like a little school girl :lol: 
If MS is realy stupid to let these things happen, Il have to switch to MAC:( 
. I hope that does not happen though. Time will tell... thats for sure.


Amen.
January 24, 2007 8:00:29 PM

I liked most of your post, however, it is bald or bold faced greed on the part of M$. They are not doing this to protect the studios. You think they care about the studios? They are doing this to control the HDCP channel. We must not let this thread migrate into the studios and what they are doing. M$ is the one that is locking down the OS and forcing compliance from the hardware providers. In making this power play they are going to cripple the hardware, for Vista and all other OS's, as you said.
January 24, 2007 8:06:21 PM

Quote:
I don't like it, but these standards are being forced on MS (and presumably Apple) by the MPAA.


Ok, so let me get this straight. The MPAA said to MS you have to make sure our HD videos only come out at a low resolution or else. LOL.....you really think Bill Gates operates that way. It's more like..hey if you do this for us we will do this for you. MS has alot more blame in this than the MPAA.

Not only that there is nothing illegal whatsoever in watching in full resolution the HD-DVD or Blu-ray that you payed for. It makes no difference either if its on a living room TV or a Computer monitor....why would it matter??? In fact IMHO its borderline criminal. MS should have said this is crap and we are going to give our consumers the best OS possible.

It's so clear now why microsoft mysteriously decided to drop tons of features promised for Vista. They had to spend all of their time building in this DRM and lowering video resolution junk.

I will never purchase vista....never. Linux does everything I want for a lot less.
January 24, 2007 8:08:42 PM

I guess I should have been more specific. I think its greed on the part of MS, along with the desire to be the controling king of the industry. When everyone has to bow down to them or not have a place in computing, then they will have accomplished their goal of monopoly, and we, the consumers, will have no choice but to pay Microsoft whether we want to or not.
January 24, 2007 8:12:58 PM

Hmmm... I got to wondering if HDCP DRM compliance has anything to do with the delays in the launch of ATI's R600 GPUs. For that matter, did all the DRM have to do with the massive delays the blue-ray brought to the Sony PS3? Perhaps we consumers are already paying, one way or another, for the extra cost of DRM compliant hardware.
January 24, 2007 8:17:07 PM

Quote:
Hmmm... I got to wondering if HDCP DRM compliance has anything to do with the delays in the launch of ATI's R600 GPUs. For that matter, did all the DRM have to do with the massive delays the blue-ray brought to the Sony PS3? Perhaps we consumers are already paying, one way or another, for the extra cost of DRM compliant hardware.


Definitely food for thought..... :idea: :idea:
January 24, 2007 8:48:52 PM

Quote:
Understand that my intention is not to offend you but I think that you are missing the point. Vista's DRM HDCP as it is now set to be implemented has far greater implications than how many computers on which you can have your music. I am trying not to post excerpts of the article and there are so many points that it is hard to pick one. Look in the index for "system reliability" and .. I can't choose there all staggering.


I'm not missing any points at all. I've read numerous articles detailing the evils of DRM so the article in this thread didn't teach me anything new. All I'm talking about are SOME of the issues that mean the most to ME. If others mean more to you or if the whole is what sinks your boat, that's the way YOU feel about it and no amount of you repeatedly yelling at people to read the article will change how I feel about it.
January 24, 2007 9:00:13 PM

I think that some of you need to check your medication. This thread remind me of one those "the government is trying to poison us" stories. If there are that many problems it will be addressed. At this point I really couldn't be bothered as don't use my PC for movie or music. Also I did read the whole article with all of the planted conclusions mixed in with the facts.
January 24, 2007 9:02:18 PM

Quote:
I don't think "bald-faced greed" quite discribes the situation.


Hmmm, it seems obvious to me that all of the parties involved are looking to lock up content, hardware, software, etc., into one package. As you put it "the only game in town". I believe that MS and the content owners believe they are the only game in town and are working to keep things that way - and bucks are the motivation thus my "bald faced greed" comment.

Like you, I'm thinking of using XP as long as possible and am suspicion of it being retrofitted with some evil rootkit. I recently picked up a cheap commercial copy of Linux so I can get acquainted with it in advance.
January 24, 2007 9:05:15 PM

Cheap commercial copy of Linux? The only ways I've heard of being able to pay for linux is by either buying it at a store (where you're paying for documentation, not software) or by paying for support. I believe all versions of Linux are free for installation.

If I may make a suggestion for first time Linux users, Ubuntu is extremely simple. I've also used SUSE, which was quite nice, and Gentoo. In any case, you can customise any way you want. Gentoo can be the most optimised, but it's the hardest to figure out. My friend had me start out on Gentoo, which was fine as long as he wasn't too far away so he could dig me out of trouble. Since then I've moved and I couldn't keep up (using experimental code while being a beginner may be the wrong approach). I've resorted to Ubuntu, which does everything I want except run some of my favorite games, so I keep XP on a partition.
January 24, 2007 9:45:23 PM

Quote:
You're right, it is all ridiculous. As I see it, most of the problem occurs because the CDs and DVDs carry way too high a pricetag compared to what they really cost. It also does annoy and alienate the consumers. When prices get out of hand, people find ways to avoid paying the price.

DRM will probably kill a lot of the industry. At least I hope it does. If the majority of people refuse to buy the new stuff, then the companies may change the way they're doing business. What ever happened to the idea that the customer is always right? Now they seem to think that they can dictate what the customer can buy, rather then what he wants to buy.


I believe that Napster and everything that has followed related to DRM is a direct outgrowth of the industry CHOOSING to give themself a big raise during the change from analog to digital in the early 80's. The current fiasco with DRM tied to a bloated operating system that soon will become a subscription-based operating system and the Devil knows what other kind junk leading to increased profits for these greedy buffoons is just more of the same old same old. Meet the new boss.
January 24, 2007 9:51:01 PM

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Cheap commercial copy of Linux? The only ways I've heard of being able to pay for linux is by either buying it at a store (where you're paying for documentation, not software) or by paying for support. I believe all versions of Linux are free for installation.


Right, and with some of the stuff I'm planning to use the computer in question for, that documentation is valuable to me. I'm not making any issue between the DVD packaged with the documentation, the additional software or the Linux OS itself. The whole thig was so cheap, it's virtually meaningless semantics to me.
January 24, 2007 9:59:07 PM

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It's all ridiculous. First priority should be not alienating the majority of customers who just want to enjoy entertainment content and are happy enough to pay the artists/producers for it. All this DRM crap does is annoy this crowd. People who are already willing to pirate the content are presumably smart enough to figure out ways around the content protection anyway, so in the end the companies have stopped zero pirating and annoyed their faithful customers


Well, I don't know how true this is. My Girlfriend'ss mom goes to bingo and she buy movies that are pirated. Whether DVD rips converted to VCd format or movies, captured from the theathers (you see people getting up) and then converted to VCD. Now these people are in backwoods Kentucky and the lady is around 50 years old, so this isn't just limited to young people in College. Now she sales these CDs for around $3-5, depending on quality. I don't know the details of how she's doing all this, but some other people have asked and she's said she downloads some and using a program to convert others and that it's pretty easy.

Now just like with drugs, if you take away people buying her disc, she would be less likely to download it and sell them. People in turn, may actual return to the theathers and Hollywood may actul start getting the money back on their movies.

Whether all this DRM effort, stop 90% of piracy or stop only 50%, I'm sure from the people who provide the content would be happy with stop the causual thieves and let law enforcement stop the hardcore theives.

I'm running the Business release of Vista and I don't have problems doing whatever I want. I don't use my PC for watching movies, I have a normal DVD player for that. So I may never be truly affected by all this DRM stuff.

I read the article and it makes alot of speculations and paints alot of worse case scenerios. But until it's actually proven to be a real problems, it's hard to get excited about it
January 24, 2007 10:02:25 PM

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My concern is less about what Vista will require directly, since I can choose to keep XP installed on the HTPC or use another OS. My problem is that MS is requiring hardware manufacturers to change their products to enable what could be a simple function such as HD content playback.


Unless you've got some links to info that I've never seen, that's not MS, that's the studios that produce HD content.

As I understand the issues, your choices are no DRM, and no support for HD DVD/Blu-Ray in full resolution (if the studios turn the flags on) or you get DRM.

I don't like it, but these standards are being forced on MS (and presumably Apple) by the MPAA.

Respectfully, that is BS. M$ is attempting to control the HDCP channel. The MPAA can't force anything. Here is the link to the article with all of the scary information. Pleas read it in it's entirety.

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.h...

So you have a way to play HD DVD and Blu-Ray (without using some hack that probably breaks the laws in the U.S.A.) at full resolution?

If so, please enumerate the ways you can play back Blu-Ray and HD-DVD on those platforms at full resolution over non-hdcp compliant hardware (and for the sake of this discussion, let's assume that the bit that forces the downconversion of high def content has been turned on).

If you actually think that the studios, which REQUIRE ALL HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players to downgrade video over analog outputs IF a certain bit is turned on (it currently is not because it would obsolete too many TVs), then you're naive.

Most of this article is dealt with here.

My guess is if you were to go buy an HD drive and hook it up right now, it'd work, because the content protecition flags are turned off on most, if not all, released HD content.
January 24, 2007 10:15:39 PM

Quote:
It's all ridiculous. First priority should be not alienating the majority of customers who just want to enjoy entertainment content and are happy enough to pay the artists/producers for it. All this DRM crap does is annoy this crowd. People who are already willing to pirate the content are presumably smart enough to figure out ways around the content protection anyway, so in the end the companies have stopped zero pirating and annoyed their faithful customers


Well, I don't know how true this is. My Girlfriend'ss mom goes to bingo and she buy movies that are pirated. Whether DVD rips converted to VCd format or movies, captured from the theathers (you see people getting up) and then converted to VCD. Now these people are in backwoods Kentucky and the lady is around 50 years old, so this isn't just limited to young people in College. Now she sales these CDs for around $3-5, depending on quality. I don't know the details of how she's doing all this, but some other people have asked and she's said she downloads some and using a program to convert others and that it's pretty easy.


With all do respect, anyone that's willing to watch a crappy quality VCD of a crappy recording with crappy audio is never going to bother with movie tickets or buying DVDs.

Besides, Hollywood makes plenty of money on movies on DVD (they generally make as much on DVD as they do in theaters).

As for ripping DVDs, those ahve DRM and it failed. The current content has DRM and it's been broken (and hardly anyone has HD players yet). DRM isn't the answer and frankly there's no way to stop the theft. In the 80's we rented movies and we copied them. They put macrovision on it and we iether tolerated it or bought a box that stripped the macrovision out (which was sometimes needed just to playback movies).

I think the main reason there's a slowing of growth in DVDs is because peope have the old movies they replaced and because the studios have started charging much more for 2 disk versions. I know I took a pass on the last Harry Potter DVD, because the version I wanted cost much more than it had in the past. I think it's less now, and I may pick it up one of these days, but I'm not willing to pay 5 or 10 bucks extra to see the extras that I'll only watch once (in most cases) and I'm unwilling to buy a stripped down version at all.

I don't steal it....I jsut don't buy it (and I use to buy severa dvd's a month).
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