Vista users’ frustrations with Nvidia come to a head

[sirkillalot]

http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=405
Windows Vista users' ongoing frustrations with graphics-card maker Nvidia have boiled over.

A new Web site, NvidiaClassAction.info, created by IT consultant Dan Goldman, is gauging whether there is sufficient user interest to launch a class-action suit against Nvidia over the vendor's allegedly spotty Windows Vista support.
The NvidiaClasACtion home page explains the site's purpose:
"This website gathers information to determine the viability for a class action lawsuit against nVidia (and some of its manufacturing partners) for problems involving 'Vista Ready Certified' products on the Microsoft Vista operating system.
"We at www.nVidiaclassaction.info believe that nVidia and its manufacturing partners defrauded us. Therefore, we are proactively gathering information from victims around the world who have suffered similar harms, and who we believe have also been defrauded.
"This information will provide a law firm in New York City (which must – at this point – remain anonymous) evidence to determine viability for a class action lawsuit."
Goldman said he purchased an 8800 series Nvidia graphics card that was labeled as "Designed for Windows Vista" before Microsoft launched Vista on January 30. Once Vista was released to consumers, Nvidia made available the necessary drivers for the cards. But the drivers have been plagued with bugs, Goldman said. Based on support forum threads on Nvidia's site, thousands of users have had trouble with the cards/drivers, Goldman said.
"(F)or more than a month, nvidia has tried to hush the problem and has not provided any solution or information regarding the problem. this, of course, meant that people could not figure out if the problem was with drivers or with their system configuration or even hardware malfunctions. this, in turn, lead to people returning various hardware components and getting replacements, just to find out that it did not solve the problem. it also lead to people spending dozens of hours on system configuration changes, hardware reassembly, windows tweaking, bios tweaking, forum reading and so on. all of it without finding solutions."
In the online forum of the Web site is a posting that is attributed to Nvidia PR representative Calisa Cole that asks the Web site creators to "terminate this misleading operation against the Nvidia corporation." However, when I contacted Cole by e-mail about the posting, Cole replied: "I did NOT submit that listing. It was some kind of hack using my name. It's really sad that someone would do it because it undermines the credibility of blogs."
I asked her for an official statement on the Nvidia class-action suit site and Cole did not respond by the time I published this blog entry.
Back to the matter at hand. How bad is the Vista-Nvidia problem? I asked a few Vista power users for their takes. Here are a few:
* Michael Reyes, HardwareGeeks.com: "I am the unhappy owner of an NVIDIA 8800 GTX 768 MB card that I paid nearly 800 dollars for. I can't even play Texas Hold-em on it. For me the biggest disapointment in Vista hasn't come from Microsoft but from NVIDIA. It sucks that a 20 dollar card can play games fine in Windows, but you spend a litle more for a much better gaming experience and you end up with one that's worse."
* Andre Da Costa, Teching It Easy: Problems with Nvidia and Vista have "been going on for too long. It's like they have not been ready since day one with this product, and the aim was just beat AMD to market which has backfired on them. The last time they (Nvidia) released a good driver up date was 84.xx. Ever since then it has a been a living nightmare for users with this product on Vista. (T)his is a product thats critical to the user experience on Vista and if your product is degrading that, it looks bad on Microsoft's part."
* John Obeto, AbsoluteVista: "Nvidia, as well as other GPU manufacturers were partnered with Microsoft on Vista from the beginning. Supposedly! For Nvidia to not have drivers ready as of the RTM (release to manufacturing) release of Vista back in November of 2006, which, incidentally, AMD's ATI division did, is not only a shame, but shows a lack of respect for customers by Nvidia. They then added insult to injury by unlawfully, in my opinion, claiming that the released drivers were 'Built for Vista.' Compounding it all is their (Nvidia's) claim that the problem 'is not their fault, but a Windows Vista problem.' I believe that the executive at Nvidia has not been watching the news or heard of the resultant effects of a lack of customer service on the fortunes of Sony and Dell."


"TISK TISK TISK"

 

[Spikke]

The drivers for the 8800 are horrible for Vista, I switched back to XP, gaming is much more enjoyable. I was pretty pissed about it, but I didn't pay for Vista so it wasn't too bad switching back to XP because of that.

 

[sirkillalot]

The drivers for the 8800 are horrible for Vista, I switched back to XP, gaming is much more enjoyable. I was pretty pissed about it, but I didn't pay for Vista so it wasn't too bad switching back to XP because of that.

OK good to know, im not into Vista at this time and i will probably hold off as long as i can. I dont see any benefit from it compared to xp.
In fact for games it sucks, from what my friends have experienced.

 

[neokill3r]

Wihout any Ati dx10 drivers to compare it to, could it just be that vista sucks?

 

[mpjesse]

What, am I the only person who HASN'T had problems w/ Vista and 8800 series drivers?

Fcuk... I think some of ya'll are exaggerating. And I'm running x64 Vista!

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

 

[Spikke]

What, am I the only person who HASN'T had problems w/ Vista and 8800 series drivers?

Fcuk... I think some of ya'll are exaggerating. And I'm running x64 Vista!

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

I was running x64 Vista too and my fps were lower than in XP, but my main issue was constant game crashes and blue screens with an error that was something like nvdisp or something like that, can't remember the exact error now.

 

[pongrules]

Wihout any Ati dx10 drivers to compare it to, could it just be that vista sucks?

That's my suspicion as well. It's not like the 8800 is the only periperal that has issues with Vista. Plus, there are many software programs that have issues with Vista as well. The truth, as usual, is probably somewhere in between.

 

[pongrules]

The drivers for the 8800 are horrible for Vista, I switched back to XP, gaming is much more enjoyable. I was pretty pissed about it, but I didn't pay for Vista so it wasn't too bad switching back to XP because of that.

OK good to know, im not into Vista at this time and i will probably hold off as long as i can. I dont see any benefit from it compared to xp.
In fact for games it sucks, from what my friends have experienced.

This is my general feeling as well. I will be waiting for Vista SP1 before I even think about installing because I don't feel like being Windows' guinea pig. I don't care how many DX10 games come out before that happens either.

 

[Phrozt]

Vista is bad all around for games... there was a review on this not too long ago on THG I think...

Here we go:
http://www.twitchguru.com/2007/03/01/vista_offers_nothing_to_gamers/

 

[pongrules]

What, am I the only person who HASN'T had problems w/ Vista and 8800 series drivers?

Fcuk... I think some of ya'll are exaggerating. And I'm running x64 Vista!

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

You hit the nail on the head. Some people like diving into new technology but then you have to deal with the consequences both good and bad until everything becomes stable. There are bound to be problems when you have an OS that's trying to be stable with thousands of different platforms, overclockers, peripherals, etc.

 

[kaotao]

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

Agreed.

 

[Dante_Jose_Cuervo]

Yarg, this is a good observation. Although even the 64bit drivers are stable? Cool, I'll def have to check that out

 

[sailer]

What, am I the only person who HASN'T had problems w/ Vista and 8800 series drivers?

Fcuk... I think some of ya'll are exaggerating. And I'm running x64 Vista!

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

You hit the nail on the head. Some people like diving into new technology but then you have to deal with the consequences both good and bad until everything becomes stable. There are bound to be problems when you have an OS that's trying to be stable with thousands of different platforms, overclockers, peripherals, etc.

I disagree. If a person buys a product expecting performance based on what the product claims, then the person has a right to get that performance, or get the money returned. I'm not saying that the 8800 is a bad card or that it doesn't run DX9 programs, whether under Vista or XP, as it seems to do that very well. But if a person bought one under the express purpose of its being able to run DX10 games and Vista and it doesn't, then Nvidia is guilty of false advertising for proclaiming it as a Vista ready, DX10 ready card.

Not much to say about AMD/ATI and the R600, but perhaps part of that delay is because of problems with Vista/DX10 and they are trying to avoid the same trap.

 

[pongrules]

True, I would hope that during the delay ATI is trying not to make some of the same mistakes Nvidia has.

However, how much of the problem with Nvidia is caused by Vista? I don't know, and you don't know, what's going on behind the scenes. Maybe Vista has been a major PITA to deal with and Nvidia is doing what they can with an OS that's patching constantly. Besides that, Nvidia cards do work for some people using Vista so saying it doesn't is not true. It may not be optimized fully, but again, that may not be completely Nvidia's fault. That fact is, it does work with Vista so it's not faulty advertising.

And about buying a product and expecting it to perform, I think we all agree that our hard-earned dollars should buy us value. But I think any PC gamer will agree that the reality is performance at its fullest is not always guaranteed. It's not right, but in reality, experienced PC gamers/enthusiasts know new technology isn't going to be perfect. What game has come out that didn't need a patch? What motherboard hasn't had BIOS updates? What Windows OS didn't go through at least one service pack? What software program in general hasn't released patches to make it better? It's kinda part of the deal. These aren't consoles. There are many different parts trying to match well together. I think compatability and something working like it's been advertised has become more of the exception rather than the rule, unfortunately.

But then again, you can always buy a console which doesn't have the same flexibility as a PC so what plagues the PC also makes it better.

 

[hassa]

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

That is absolute BS. If you went out and got the latest model car from a car manufacturer, you wouldn't say that. What if the complaint was "The brakes don't work very well yet, but we will fix it later... In the meantime deal with is syssys...". You would want your money back, or the brakes fixed NOW!!!

So why does it work differently for IT (and I'm not just talking Nvidia drivers here - talking in general)? But in the case of Nvidia, they have been somewhat lacking in quality control and customer support - the amount of complaints is evidence of this!!!!

 

[hassa]

What software program in general hasn't released patches to make it better?

Hello World???

 

[sailer]

My advice to this class action thingie: get over it. That's what you get for wanting to have the latest and greatest. Deal with it sissys.

That is absolute BS. If you went out and got the latest model car from a car manufacturer, you wouldn't say that. What if the complaint was "The brakes don't work very well yet, but we will fix it later... In the meantime deal with is syssys...". You would want your money back, or the brakes fixed NOW!!!

So why does it work differently for IT (and I'm not just talking Nvidia drivers here - talking in general)? But in the case of Nvidia, they have been somewhat lacking in quality control and customer support - the amount of complaints is evidence of this!!!!

Very much the point I was trying to make. When a product is advertised to do something and it doesn't, then I want a correction made now or a refund so I can buy something else.

 

[pongrules]

Sailer, I think you sig says something pretty signigicant as well. Kind my point on the reality of things versus what we'd like. I don't disagree with you that we should get what we pay for, but in the IT world, we've gotten used to not getting what we pay for in many circumstances. In most cases, however, the corrections do come but maybe not as fast as we'd like them to.

 

[sailer]

I've been using Windows since the days of Windows 3.0. Usually the troubles are caused because I did something wrong or because of a hardware problem. My mistakes are ones that I live with and about which I have developed a sense of humor. Its faulty hardware that drives me up the wall. Doesn't matter if its a cpu that came DOA or a hardrive the quit or whatever. I put in work installing the thing and I expect it to do its job. And, of course, I've learned not to trust any OS that Microsoft developes until its been out for a while and the bugs have been worked out.

 

[pongrules]

I think you have to develop a sense of humor about this stuff because it happens so frequently. Makes it pretty hard to nail down a problem when it could be any number of things from the PSU to the RAM to the CPU, GPU, etc...or maybe it's just the game, the OS...you name it.

So starting a class action suit against Nvidia? Good luck proving it's faulty advertising on their part.

 

[sailer]

Proving the false advertising may be difficult. I don't own the affected product or Vista, so have no personal experience with it. I'll leave that to the lawyers. I have thought about buying a 8800 for my XP machine, just as a higher powered video card and not having expectations about Vista/DX10. If the R600 doesn't come out quick or have impressive benches, that is what I'll end up doing.

 

[The_Abyss]

On the other hand, show me a DX10 game that doesn't work with a 8800 and Vista as advertised...

 

[sailer]

On the other hand, show me a DX10 game that doesn't work with a 8800 and Vista as advertised...

Sure, as soon as you show me one that does. Drat it, I just can't find one that doesn't work.

 

[pongrules]

I think Sailer's referring to problems with Vista and the 8800. I see Vista has problems already with lots of games, all of them DX9 of course. :lol:
But it doesn't matter whether it's ATI or Nvidia that's the peripheral.

STALKER, for instance, runs like crap on Vista but it runs like crap on ATI and Nvidia. Runs great on XP. There are many more instances of software and hardware running like crap with Vista and not XP than problems with 8800 running with Vista. When you look at the culmination of information, it looks like a lot of hardware and software is having a hard time with Vista but not with XP. So who's fault is all this? The 8800's work like a dream with XP, I and many others can attest to that. The 8800 also works with Vista but not for some people.

To me, it looks like Vista is at least somewhat of the culprit in all of these cases but it really takes a collaberative effort on all sides to get things straightened out when there's a new OS. And it takes time which is why I'm sticking with XP until at least Vista SP1.

 

[pongrules]

I have thought about buying a 8800 for my XP machine, just as a higher powered video card and not having expectations about Vista/DX10. If the R600 doesn't come out quick or have impressive benches, that is what I'll end up doing.

Dude, the 8800GTX + XP = Fun times. Trust me, I know.

Too bad about ATI and the R600. I have always been a fan of ATI cards, but I wanted to make a move and they weren't there with anything comparable to the 8800GTX. I don't buy into the whole theory of wait until X comes out because it's going to beat the pants off Y. Unless it's like a month or less, forget it or I'll be waiting forever.