"Core 2 Duo -- The Embarrassing Secrets"?

Well, Scientia might be around here lurking, but the article he posted on his blog is kind of interesting to say the least. I think its a good read and a good way to exercise our powers of deduction and reasoning. with that said, please reply thoughtfully to the thread and leave the bashing out. :)

Although Core 2 Duo has been impressive since its introduction last year, a veil of secrecy has remained in place which has prevented a true understanding of the chip's capabilities. This has been reminiscent of The Wizard Of Oz with analysts and enthusiasts insisting we ignore what's behind the curtain. However, we can now see that some of C2D's prowess is just as imaginary as the giant flaming wizard.

The two things that Intel would rather you not know about Core 2 Duo are that it has been tweaked for benchmarks rather than for real code, and that at 2.93 Ghz it is exceeding its thermal limits on the 65nm process. I'm sure both of these things will come as a surprise to many but the evidence is at Tom's Hardware Guide, Xbitlabs, and Anandtech. But, although the information is very clear, no one has previously called any attention to it. Core 2 Duo roughly doubles the SSE performance of K8, Core Duo, and P4D. This is no minor accomplishment and Intel deserves every bit of credit for this. For SSE intensive applications, C2D is a grand slam home run. However, the great majority of consumer applications are more dependent on integer performance than floating point performance and this is where the smoke and mirrors have been in full force. There is no doubt that Core 2 Duo is faster than K8 at the same clock. The problem has been in finding out how much faster. Estimates have ranged from 5% to 40% faster. Unfortunately, most of the hardware review sites have shown no desire to narrow this range.
read the rest:
http://scientiasblog.blogspot.com/
© Scientia from AMDZone, April 15 2007

Comments?

Edited to save my ass from a copyright violation charge.
 

r0ck

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My eyes hurt. Har har fanboy man. Core 2 is of no significance. Intel is evil. Everyone is against AMD. AMD is not hurting. :lol:
 

mpasternak

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definately sounds like there is an attempted slight against intel. I think that he needs to provide refferences and links to suitable data sources to back up his claim.

even testing here on THG (which is not always reliable) with real world applications, the C2D almost always comes out on top. While in some cases it's not a catostrophic increase, it is still an increase.

Real world benchmarks are the best test, and they still show that the C2D is a performer.
 

zornundo

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That dood is all over the place. First he talks about benchmarks, then rattles on about temperatures, and then finally about 'booms'. Is he actually trying to make a point? :roll:
 

ElMoIsEviL

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You want a comment on the vile piece of trash?

And I'm saying this from a centrist viewpoint. First of all how can a processor be made to give benchmarked applications a boost? If the processor gives the applications a boost under a test, testing the application then it will undoubtably give the application a boost when performing it's normal routine duties.

Synthetic benchmarks aside, Core 2 offers a compelling performance boost. It's noticeable even when just running Windows (especially VISTA) over AMD's Athlon64 X2 processor.

The entirety of this article with it's assumption that Intel's Core 2 is made to just look good under benchmarks seems like a conspiracy theory of the grand scale. If an apple, looks like an apple, tastes like an apple and it's DNA is that of an apple then by all accounts it is an apple. This nut is trying to tell us it's an Orange.

A few Facts that most readers understand. They are that...

1. Intel's Process technology is superior to it's competitors
2. Intel's Caching technology is also superior and plays a large role in the performance of C2D, particularly when running in Dual Core mode and having the Cache Shared.
3. Intel's SSE performance is second to none.
4. Intel's Integer performance is faster per clock then it's current competitor's AMD.

Now.. how to explain. Simple. Intel's Architectures have one flaw. They're based on an older communications bus known as the Front Side Bus. Particularly, one can see the deficiency of this older technology with the performance of Intel own Celeron style Core 2 processor the Conroe-L. It is both the cache that keeps this processor from performing as well as it's front side bus speed.

Let me explain for the Sharikou-style folks.

No doubt having 512KB of L2 cache does impact performance. But another great limiter is the 800MHz FSB. To explain this takes great patience but I will try. Core 2 Duo's have a 1066MHz Front Side Bus shared between both Cores. One would assume this means each core shares it in half. This is false. Core 2 Duo's cores make use of the shared Cache (a rather large pool at 4MB) to send and receive data (between both cores). This is used as a communications bus between both cores (The cache) therefore the entire C2D has ~ 1066MHz to play with (8.5GB/sec) as both cores do not need access to the FSB at the same time. You see the Core 2 Duo is a TRUE dual core processor. Whenever the C2D needs to communicate with the system it has a full 1066MHz bus to do so with as all the rest of the information is shared via tha cache. With Conroe-L you have a problem. For one, the FSB is decreased to 800MHz (6.4GB/s) and secondly it's Cache is striped down to 512KB (1/8th that of Core 2 Duo). Taking into account that the Cache is 1/8th and the performance drop is around 40% one can extrapolate that the Athlon64 (K8) architecture that suffers a 10% decline when the Cache is halved would suffer a 30% performance hit if the cache were 1/8th itself.

The remaining performance hit? Simple, K8 has hypertransport, Conroe-L has an 800MHz front side bus. Hypertransport is slower then the shared caching mechanism that C2D get's to use but faster then the simple FSB clocked at 800MHz that Conroe-L is stuck with.

I would assume a 30% reduction in performance of Conroe-L due to caching size and the remaining 5-10% being due to the smaller FSB.

The problem is that people are viewing C2D as Two cores on one package when in fact it's a single processor with two cores. a Dual Core Processor. Because the Cache is shared you can fully compare to a single core processor on a 1:1 basis and not 2:1.

Athlon64 X2 cannot. It is not a Dual Core Processor. It's a Dual Processor system one a single package that communicates with one another using a hypertransport link. No Cache is shared between both so they're in fact two seperate processors with an HT link between them.

tzun16l.jpg
 

Major_Spittle

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This is one of the dumbest articles I have ever wasted my time reading. Here are the earth shattering revealations:

1. If C2D didn't have a big cache it would be slower.

mmm, k.

2. If CPU's were benched in a way more favorful for AMD, AMD would do better.

mmm, k.

3. In "real world" conditions AMD is better.

hmmm, encoding time and fps while playing games are not real world??? What does this idiot do on his home computer? I would say these are the only two test that mean anything to me in terms of home computing and don't know how you could run them more "real world" than just running them.

4. Intel's quad at 2.93 exceedes what he feels is acceptable for thermal limits.

ok, nice cherry on top of your " I a f'ing moron AMD fanboy idiot " sunday.
 

accord99

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The problem has been in finding out how much faster. Estimates have ranged from 5% to 40% faster. Unfortunately, most of the hardware review sites have shown no desire to narrow this range.
I haven't seen this, it's pretty clear from the huge number of reviews that a 2x1MB K8 needs roughly a 25% clock advantage to match a 4MB C2D over a wide range of applications. Hence the 6000+ barely matching the E6600.

owever, the comparison between the 2.0Ghz Celeron 440 and the 1.8Ghz E4300 is not so good. With a 10% greater clock speed, the lower cache C2D is actually 36% slower.
It's an invalid comparison considering the E4300 is a dual-core processor and many of the Xbitlabs tested applications benefit from the second core. A more reasonable review here shows the 1MB Pentium E2160 barely slower than the 2MB E4300 and considerably faster than a 3600+, which is clocked faster and has the same amount of total L2 cache.

http://xtreview.com/addcomment-id-2106-view-Pentium-e2140-benchmark.html

According to the Guide, "Thermal Case Temperatures of 60c is hot, 55c is warm, and 50c is safe. Tcase Load should not exceed ~ 55c with TAT @ 100% Load." So, 55c is the max and since we are allowing 7c because of less than 100% thermal loading, the maximum allowable temperature would be 48c. The second chart, Loaded CPU Temperature lists the resulting temperatures. We note that the temperature of the X6800 at 2.93Ghz with the stock HSF (heatsink and fan) is shockingly 56c or 8c over maximum. We can see that even a Thermalright MST-6775 is inadequate. From these temperatures we can say that X6800 is not truly an X/EE/FX class chip. This is really a Special Edition chip since it requires something better than stock cooling just to run at its rated clock speed. This finally explains why Intel has not released anything faster. If the thermal limits can be exceeded with stock HSF at stock speeds then anything faster would be even riskier. Clearly, Intel is not willing to take that risk and repeat the 1.13Ghz PIII fiasco. This explains why Intel is waiting until it has a suitable 45nm Penryn to increase clocks again. Presumably with reduced power draw, Penryn could stay inside the factory thermal limits.
He's clearly mixing up temperatures here, using Tjunction temperatures while using the Tcase limits. 55C measured means there is upwards of 25C of headroom before throttling. This is supported by Intel being able to release quad-core models without problems, the low measured power usage of the C2Ds and the ease of which even overclocked C2Ds can be run passively with good heatsinks.
 

halbhh

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Was interesting. Great outlook to find that.

One response comment I found interesting is by "abinstein":

"It is true that we see faster media encoding by C2D than K8X2. It is true that compressions run faster on C2D than on K8X2. It is true that games and 3D graphics apps run faster on C2D than K8X2.

"At the most, we can only say that C2D is tweaked for certain types of apps such as media processing/compressions and AI (path finding). OTOH, C2D runs slower than K8X2 for cryptography and many mathematical/scientific codes, and about the same for business applications. The point is, all these above are real codes, not benchmarks."
 

accord99

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"It is true that we see faster media encoding by C2D than K8X2. It is true that compressions run faster on C2D than on K8X2. It is true that games and 3D graphics apps run faster on C2D than K8X2.

"At the most, we can only say that C2D is tweaked for certain types of apps such as media processing/compressions and AI (path finding). OTOH, C2D runs slower than K8X2 for cryptography and many mathematical/scientific codes, and about the same for business applications. The point is, all these above are real codes, not benchmarks."

Please, we can say that the C2D is faster in the overwhelming majority of applications, with the K8 being only stronger in a few niche or old applications.
 

r0ck

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It's an invalid comparison considering the E4300 is a dual-core processor and many of the Xbitlabs tested applications benefit from the second core.

+1

"It is true that we see faster media encoding by C2D than K8X2. It is true that compressions run faster on C2D than on K8X2. It is true that games and 3D graphics apps run faster on C2D than K8X2.

So it is true that for the desktop, Core 2 Duo is better. :?:

"OTOH, C2D runs slower than K8X2 for cryptography and many mathematical/scientific codes, and about the same for business applications. The point is, all these above are real codes, not benchmarks."

Oh yes, because we all run cryptography??, Sciencemark??, and "business" apps.

Conclusion, abinstein thinks real apps are "benchmarks" and "business" apps are "real code".
 

benzene

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I tried to find out exactly what temperature is being measured here as that is an important consideration as to how close to the thermal limit the cpu actually is; t-case or t-junction. The original article that Scentia refers to states that they are using the NVIDIA Monitor temperature measurement utility to obtain the readings - I dont know which of the 2 temps this is reading. All the temp monitors I use seem to tally with TAT leading me to believe that they're measuring t junction. From the article...

"We note that the temperature of the X6800 at 2.93Ghz with the stock HSF (heatsink and fan) is shockingly 56c or 8c over maximum."

If that is a measure of T-core(junction), then it's well within spec and t-case is actually 15C less...

...i think :?:

Oh and another thing...isn't saying that a C2D is only faster because of cache (even if its true) the same as saying, your car is only faster cuz it has a turbo...so what, its still faster, no?
 

Eviltwin17

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ok, guys, first of all i like how you bash the article even though it clearly states that core2duo is a better performer than x2. I think what the article is getting at is how everybody blows c2d wayyyy out of proportion when they look at certain benchmarks. Yes, c2d is a good performer and performs significantly better than x2, but all the article does is suggest that c2d might be blown out of proportion BECAUSE c2d is altered to do well in certain benchmarks.

the whole temperature thing was stupid though
 

accord99

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ok, guys, first of all i like how you bash the article even though it clearly states that core2duo is a better performer than x2.
People are bashing the article because of its mistakes:

1) A misleading comparison of dual-core vs single-core processors to support their false belief that the cache is an artificial performance boost

2) Claiming the C2D is overheating and therefore causing Intel to not be able to release faster versions.
 

ElMoIsEviL

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ok, guys, first of all i like how you bash the article even though it clearly states that core2duo is a better performer than x2. I think what the article is getting at is how everybody blows c2d wayyyy out of proportion when they look at certain benchmarks. Yes, c2d is a good performer and performs significantly better than x2, but all the article does is suggest that c2d might be blown out of proportion BECAUSE c2d is altered to do well in certain benchmarks.

the whole temperature thing was stupid though

C2D is not altered to perform well in benchmarks. If anything the Pentium 4 was altered that way. Benchmarks (most notably Sisoft Sandra) would place the Pentium4 HT processor well ahead of the Athlon64 in it's tests. As wel know this was false as actual application benchmarks showed the Athlon64 to be the full on winner.

Would you then claim that the Athlon64 was built to just shine under benchmarks?

It's a stupid claim. Doesn't make sense and I've pretty much dis-proved it as the benchmarks C2D excels in are real applications. It is the Athlon64 (K8) that excels in Synthetic tests like Sciencemark. IT's the only place it comes close to C2D are synthetics.
 

amdwilliam1985

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interesting conspiracy, nice catching subject.
But based on the article content, I think the subject line needs to be change into something else, I'm sure there is nothing embarrassing about c2d's performance.
 

Viperabyss

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My eyes hurt. Har har fanboy man. Core 2 is of no significance. Intel is evil. Everyone is against AMD. AMD is not hurting. :lol:
hey at least his points are semi-valid.
unlike some fanboys who's just interested in posting "appreciation thread".... :roll:
 

halbhh

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Everyone knows C2duo is better, in most ways, except price. It's a little surprising anyone needs to line up to say so. While it's old news X2's better at scientific stuff and good for general use, it seems everyone didn't know it! It's odd folks feel they need to defend C2duos, as if C2duos were in need of defense.