Samsung HLP5063 + Scientific Atlanta 3250HD STB = DVI Not ..

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hi all,

Just bought a Samsung HLP5063, which we love. The TV is connected to a
Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable box (Time-Warner Cable).

The HD cable box was initially installed using component connections to
the TV, which was fine. Had an awesome picture on HD channels as one
would expect.

However, today I went out and got a DVI cable, based upon getting an
even better image.

Low and behold, when connected via the DVI cable, the TV displays a
message indicating that this mode is not compatible. This message is
from the TV box and not from the cable box, as it has the look of the
other TV generated messages/menus.

According to the cable box manual, the cable box will display an error
message on the TV, if the TV's DVI input is not "HDCP compatible". This
is not the message that I am seeing.

I spent around 30 minutes on the phone with Samsung tech support and
about an hour on the phone with the Time-Warner tech rep to no avail.
Samsung indicates that there should not be a problem and the T-W rep
suggests that it is the TV. Sounds like the old "It's not the
software/It's not the hardware" debates.

A search of the web and usenet via Google comes up empty with respect to
any specific comments on this particular combination.

Does anyone have any thoughts/comments? I would live to get this
combination running with DVI.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Marc Schwartz

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

There have been several problems with this combination (SA3250HD and
Samsung DLP). You may be able to get it to work by resetting the unit
to always provide 720p resolution, but the message may reappear after
you've turned the units off and back on.

This set of problems was discussed in the AVS forum earlier this year.
The conclusion was that there was a problem in the way SA implemented
HDCP, and SA was expected to issue a firmware update to fix it. I'm not
sure what the eventual outcome was - personally, I just switched back to
using a component connection. And now I've switched over to the
SA8000HD, so I no longer even have a 3250 to try it on. (For that
matter, I've never tried DVI with the 8000 either - the same problem may
occur there).

I tried to find the thread on this topic in the AVS forum, but I was
unsuccessful. If I find it later, I'll try to mention it here.

In any event, I suggest that you contact your cable company and ask them
to make sure that you have the latest firmware in your SA3250HD.

Marc Schwartz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Just bought a Samsung HLP5063, which we love. The TV is connected to a
> Scientific Atlanta 3250HD cable box (Time-Warner Cable).
>
> The HD cable box was initially installed using component connections to
> the TV, which was fine. Had an awesome picture on HD channels as one
> would expect.
>
> However, today I went out and got a DVI cable, based upon getting an
> even better image.
>
> Low and behold, when connected via the DVI cable, the TV displays a
> message indicating that this mode is not compatible. This message is
> from the TV box and not from the cable box, as it has the look of the
> other TV generated messages/menus.
>
> According to the cable box manual, the cable box will display an error
> message on the TV, if the TV's DVI input is not "HDCP compatible". This
> is not the message that I am seeing.
>
> I spent around 30 minutes on the phone with Samsung tech support and
> about an hour on the phone with the Time-Warner tech rep to no avail.
> Samsung indicates that there should not be a problem and the T-W rep
> suggests that it is the TV. Sounds like the old "It's not the
> software/It's not the hardware" debates.
>
> A search of the web and usenet via Google comes up empty with respect to
> any specific comments on this particular combination.
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts/comments? I would live to get this
> combination running with DVI.
>
> Thanks in advance for any help.
>
> Marc Schwartz

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Marc Schwartz wrote:
>
> So, I called Time-Warner Cable again this afternoon and got a different
> "Level 3" tech than I did yesterday. This guy immediately said, turn off
> both units (the TV and the STB). He then re-initialized the STB over the
> network. He then had me turn on the TV first and then turn on the STB.
>
> Voila!
>
> A signal came thru the DVI cable and we had a picture. Yeah!
>
> He indicated that sometimes (not sure why) the TV needs to be on first
> in order to respond to the STB when it comes up. What do I know, but it
> seemed to work, as now I can turn the boxes on in either sequence and we
> can get a picture via the DVI. Sounds like some sort of communications
> protocol issue.

Yes, that's exactly right. The SA box provides certain DVI signals only
at power-up, with no provision to repeat them if the target set is
recycled. This is an error in their implementation of the protocol, and
one that should have been corrected via software updates from SA by now.
The result is that these problems will recur until you get the proper
software from your cable company.

> The DVI image is most definitely better than the component image.

Interesting. I observed no difference whatsoever in image quality
between component and DVI.

> However, there is one additional issue that we became aware of. The
> signal through the DVI cable only seems to come across to the TV on the
> HD channels. We cannot get the signal on any of the basic (non-digital
> channels) or the digital tier channels. On these channels we get the
> "unsupported mode" error message.

I think you'll find that the overall problem is not this simple. This
is a symptom of the same handshaking issue. While recycling the sets in
the right sequence may resolve parts of the problem, it will not resolve
it completely.

> So...they will be exchanging our box this week, since the tech indicated
> that we should be getting a signal on all cable channels via the DVI
> cable, not just the HD channels.

Swapping the box is not likely to make any difference, unless the
replacement box has newer built-in software. This is not a hardware
problem.

> I guess we will see where we go from here, but I am increasingly
> suspicious of the existing STB and presume that there is some technical
> issue with it that is the source of our problems and the inconsistent
> signal output.

Keep us posted. It might be worthwhile to keep track of the software
versions in the boxes that your cable company provides, as well as
tracking any updates that come down the wire. Good luck.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Marc Schwartz wrote:

>
> The image is substantially crisper and the colors are clearly more
> vibrant. Watching the football game on ESPNHD last night, the orange
> Denver uniforms were screaming off the screen in brilliant and sharp
> colors. Other shows were similarly very crisp with vibrant colors, more
> so than with the component connection.
>
> According to the gentlemen at Best Buy, this is at least in part, if not
> primarily caused by the compression of the signals when using component
> connections. If that is correct, then I would guess that the compression
> is using a lossy algorithm (ie. like JPG) and presumably there is data
> loss and reduction in image quality as a result.
>
> The DVI connection is not compressed and therefore the full signal is
> coming across, resulting in the advantages in image quality.

If you see a significant difference, that's fine with me. You're not
alone - many people report that DVI gives them better results than
component. However, many others report no difference - there is no real
consensus.

In any event, the component connection does not employ any compression.
It is a straight set of analog video signals running at full video
bandwidth. The DVI signal is the digital equivalent, but there's no
inherent reason to expect it to provide better quality.

There is, of course, compression used in the HD digital broadcast
mechanism. But that occurs long before it reaches your set, and will
affect both connections equally.

When I compared the two, I didn't see a difference. However, my set is
the older and smaller HLN4370, so perhaps the HLP sets have an advantage
in that area.

Don't put too much stock in what you learn from the Best Buy sales
clerk. They do get some training, and they certainly mean well, but
they are often misinformed.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Marc Schwartz wrote:
> Jim Gilliland wrote:
>
>>
>> If you see a significant difference, that's fine with me. You're not
>> alone - many people report that DVI gives them better results than
>> component. However, many others report no difference - there is no
>> real consensus.
>>
>> In any event, the component connection does not employ any
>> compression. It is a straight set of analog video signals running at
>> full video bandwidth. The DVI signal is the digital equivalent, but
>> there's no inherent reason to expect it to provide better quality.
>>
>> There is, of course, compression used in the HD digital broadcast
>> mechanism. But that occurs long before it reaches your set, and will
>> affect both connections equally.
>>
>> When I compared the two, I didn't see a difference. However, my set
>> is the older and smaller HLN4370, so perhaps the HLP sets have an
>> advantage in that area.
>>
>> Don't put too much stock in what you learn from the Best Buy sales
>> clerk. They do get some training, and they certainly mean well, but
>> they are often misinformed.
>
>
> Jim,
>
> Thanks (again) for your reply.
>
> I did some Googling and you are correct. The BB sales person appears to
> be mistaken, which I will mention to him when I see him next. What is
> interesting is that this gentlemen in particular, is going to be part of
> BB's upscale AV/Electronics group, which is part of BB's attempt to move
> more aggressively into high end home theaters, etc. They will be
> introducing this into selected stores in the near future, which will
> include in-home installation and setup, to include pre-wiring new
> construction and so on.
>
> Based upon the sites that I found with Google, the key difference
> between component and DVI is that in the case of the former, there is of
> course the digital-to-analog conversion in the STB and then the
> analog-to-digital conversion back again in the HDTV. With DVI, the
> conversions are of course not required, potentially retaining a higher
> quality and cleaner signal. Though some sites debate that and suggest
> that it is going to be entirely dependent upon the STB and the HDTV
> electronics.
>
> Thus, it may be possible that any differences seen (or thought to be
> seen) by a viewer, would be highly dependent upon the specific STB/HDTV
> combination and the "cleanliness" of the signal conversion process on
> both ends.

You've done your research well, Mark. The D-A and A-D conversions in
these sets tend be quite clean, but there is always the possibility for
some small amount of degradation to occur when a transform is applied.
Keep in mind that even with a pure digital signal path, there is some
processing being applied by the set. So while some of the reported
differences between the analog and digital connections may be real,
others are likely due to the placebo effect. It's amazing how much
difference one can see when they've got money invested in the wire!

Still, it's clear that some real differences may exist, so you're the
only one who can say for sure what you see with your own eyes. In any
event, it helps to be informed about the processes involved. It makes
it easier to separate what's real from what's imagined.

I'll be very interested to hear how you make out with your cable company
and the SA3250HD. Keep us posted as you learn more on that. Good luck!

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Ok folks, here is the solution to my follow-on problem.

The tech from T-W was here. Curiously, he was under the impression that
DVI would not support analog channels. When I showed him that I was not
getting the digital tier channels over the DVI connection either, he was
confused.

When I told him that a level 3 tech from T-W had told me that all
channels should come through DVI, he was further confused.

Nice to see that all T-W field techs are given up to date training. ;-)

So, he called back to tech support and the rep indicated that all
channels should be able to come over the DVI connection as I had
mentioned. The tech suggested checking the setup configuration on the
STB to be sure that all resolutions were enabled. Yes, they were.

Next step, check the configuration for the display output to see what
that was set to. In order to get there, you need to be viewing a
channel, which in this case, meant going to an HD channel so that we had
a picture.

Once there, you hit the "Menu" (Settings) button on the remote. Then hit
the "Menu" button a second time to bring up "More Settings" along the
left hand side of the display.

Then go to the "Set: Picture Format" menu option. For me, it was set to
"Auto DVI". Apparently, that setting is "supposed" to adjust the
incoming signal automatically so that the output signal is appropriate
for the HDTV. Needless to say, that was not happening. Auto DVI will be
available instead of "Pass-Through" when using a DVI connection.

We changed the option to "Upconvert 1", which will apparently force the
upconversion of the non-HD output signal from the STB. Once we selected
that option, we then press the yellow "A" button (not the blue "Select"
button) to Accept the change.

Now we went to analog and digital tier channels, and voila, they work.

He indicated that he was not sure what the Auto DVI option was not
working as we both believe that it should and as it is documented to do
in the STB manual on page 14.

He did state that the box that I have, having been just installed last
week, was the most recent box that they would have. He did indicate that
there are updates that are flashed out over the network, which they
get from SA and then send out to customers. He indicated that he did not
know of a way to check a "version number" for the running software/firmware.

Here is some additional information.

I just got off the phone with SA's tech support. I figured that I would
go right to the source. The tech person that I spoke with indicated that
SA actually ships the STBs with DVI connections DISabled.

The cable company (in this case T-W) can then install software/firmware
to ENable the DVI connection if they wish. However, they may or may not
want to enable other functionality in the box, hence the cable company
may or may not be using the latest firmware from SA. It is then up to
the cable company to either manually _or_ over the network, update the
software and features as they desire.

The SA tech did indicate that they are aware that the "Upconvert" option
seems to be frequently used rather than the Auto DVI option. She was
note sure why, but that seems to be common with many cable companies.

So, this may explain some of the idiosyncrasies and flakiness here with
the DVI connection.

I hope that this information may be helpful to others.

Best regards to all,

Marc Schwartz