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Ballmer cries... "me vista is not selling"

Last response: in Windows Vista
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Why have you skipped the Upgrade?

Total: 42 votes (5 blank votes)

  • Why the heck am I going to spend $300+ for WinXp repack
  • 30 %
  • I don''t wish to be beta tester for no one.
  • 9 %
  • It will take another 5yrs before we actually need this.
  • 6 %
  • I did upgrade, but the machine is so slow now I went back to XP
  • 6 %
  • M$FT is too big for their own good, I''m using Linux or OS X
  • 11 %
  • This upgrade is only a means for M$FT to spy on you.
  • 6 %
  • I got a dual core so I could go fast, not install bloatware.
  • 11 %
  • Hell I''m still using Win 3.11 / Win 95 what''s up with this?
  • 0 %
  • I bit hook line and sinker and Vista works good.
  • 22 %
  • I bit hook line and sinker and Vista sucks.
  • 3 %
February 19, 2007 6:28:29 PM

Daddy Gates is glaring.

What do you think the reasons are for lackluster sales?

Lets give M$FT a clue shall we?
February 19, 2007 7:40:37 PM

Quote:
Daddy Gates is glaring.

What do you think the reasons are for lackluster sales?

Lets give M$FT a clue shall we?
I did the $$$ vote but to better reflect my inner monkey I would need a combination of $$$ since it is just a repack of OSX/XP and it is too slow and it is a violation of my privacy and I lost my frame rates and there is ZERO chance that I will validate this copy. I guess the one good thing is that you can try it for 120 days? Anything with AACS, DRM, TPM, that at one point was running 68 services should be its own answer not to mention that most people are sick of computers in many ways and most people are broke and most people realize that we are in a resource war so keeping out of harms way and getting laid trump dumping $400.00 on spy stuff that invades privacy.
February 19, 2007 9:14:17 PM

Didn't you see Balmer's quote? Its all the nasty pirates giving to all of us for free, not that fact that they released a sub-standard product. AGAIN.
Related resources
February 19, 2007 10:19:36 PM

He's all BS. He's just using piracy as a scapegoat for a total disinterest in the product. I haven't even heard of someone with a pirated copy - even those in the scene don't really care for it. Piracy in that part of the world has nothing to do with the lack of sales in North America.

A major problem has been the lack of interest in other companies to write drivers for their products to be supported in Vista. If I knew all hardware and software I owned and use with XP would be 100% compatible with Vista, I wouldn't have a problem dishing out the cash for it.. but that simply isn't happening.

I'll wait till I'm forced to play games in DX10 before actually moving to Vista.
February 19, 2007 11:52:22 PM

Quote:

I'll wait till I'm forced to play games in DX10 before actually moving to Vista.


DX10 is the one and only reason to buy Vista next year if and only if Microsoft is the only game in town.

LOL
MSFTextrememakeover
February 20, 2007 12:21:12 AM

Quote:
He's all BS. He's just using piracy as a scapegoat for a total disinterest in the product. I haven't even heard of someone with a pirated copy - even those in the scene don't really care for it. Piracy in that part of the world has nothing to do with the lack of sales in North America.

A major problem has been the lack of interest in other companies to write drivers for their products to be supported in Vista. If I knew all hardware and software I owned and use with XP would be 100% compatible with Vista, I wouldn't have a problem dishing out the cash for it.. but that simply isn't happening.

I'll wait till I'm forced to play games in DX10 before actually moving to Vista.


I agree with what you said. I have a trial copy right now, and have numerous "sources" to get a free copy pretty much whenever I want. So far, it hasn't been worth the effort to get a free copy. I'll probably just let the trial run out and then wait for Vienna, which looks more promising.

As for Balmer's motivation, I think it is more of a prep for tightening the security restrictions and DRM than making an excuse for poor sales. We all knew, as did MS that most of their sales would be OEM anyway.
February 20, 2007 4:26:40 AM

I voted the bloatware one. I like new OSes being made and all, but the fact that every new version is SLOWER makes me think about optimization. Hardware gets faster, software gets slower.

It would be nice to have some more customization options. None of this Home, ultimate, business... crap. I want to get the option to install a fast, clean system and choose wether I want IE, OE, MS Antispy, Win Firewall, etc installed on my PC or not. So I can't choose and every release they just add more trash to an already trashed system.

Hell, I just wanna play games, why my damned OS needs 500 Megs of ram?? I don't even run the printer service! Nor the Application experience nor the superfetch nor readyboost nor Aero, etc. Wow, I killed all those services... Now I'm down to... 400??? Crap.

Software developers are being lazy or they are in a VERY short deadline. I think that today's apps could be a lot faster and better if they just spend some more time in the "optimization" department. Vista is unoptimized and poorly planed. Everyone that migrated to Vista is having some problem or another. Oblivion is higly unoptimized, Need For Speed Carbon is unoptimized, NWN 2 is unoptimized and those are only 3 games that I have.

Ops, time for my medication.

In short: I'll switch to Vista like everyone, but that doesn't mean we want to. Dx10 will force Vista into gaming people like me. Wish there was an alternative.
February 20, 2007 4:42:44 AM

Quote:
I voted the bloatware one. I like new OSes being made and all, but the fact that every new version is SLOWER makes me think about optimization. Hardware gets faster, software gets slower.

It would be nice to have some more customization options. None of this Home, ultimate, business... crap. I want to get the option to install a fast, clean system and choose wether I want IE, OE, MS Antispy, Win Firewall, etc installed on my PC or not. So I can't choose and every release they just add more trash to an already trashed system.

Hell, I just wanna play games, why my damned OS needs 500 Megs of ram?? I don't even run the printer service! Nor the Application experience nor the superfetch nor readyboost nor Aero, etc. Wow, I killed all those services... Now I'm down to... 400??? Crap.

Software developers are being lazy or they are in a VERY short deadline. I think that today's apps could be a lot faster and better if they just spend some more time in the "optimization" department. Vista is unoptimized and poorly planed. Everyone that migrated to Vista is having some problem or another. Oblivion is higly unoptimized, Need For Speed Carbon is unoptimized, NWN 2 is unoptimized and those are only 3 games that I have.

Ops, time for my medication.

In short: I'll switch to Vista like everyone, but that doesn't mean we want to. Dx10 will force Vista into gaming people like me. Wish there was an alternative.
MS has hardware partners. The whole thing is as scam to force you into a new PC. With your list above it sounds like you want to install LinuX but w/ direct X LOL Better hardware more money more services running need better hardware see?
February 20, 2007 8:53:16 AM

DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........
February 20, 2007 12:08:36 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.


Government maybe behind DRM Analog Hole, DMCA. If DRM is here to stay maybe MS taking the initiative to set a standard may benefit the consumers, most certainly MS will benefit IMO.

Can you post a link as to where you read about MS being sued if they didn’t incorporate DRM into Vista?
February 20, 2007 12:35:21 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........
Microsoft has made itself the lead organization of AACS LA (the encryption being implemented for HD Media), DRM (the encryption of various media not protected by AACS) and TPM ( hardware/software protection over anything not covered by AACS & DRM). Microsoft did this in order to appear more secure since Windows is affected by nearly 400,000 virii now. If they were TOLD to do it by the recording industry that is a stretch since MS is one of the owners of AACS (it even gets a cut for each disc sold) this is stated on the first page of the AACS LA site. The Federal Government attempted to break MS in two and FAILED. The fact is corporations like Warner Brothers, Sony and Walt Disney pay MS who sit at the center of the whole thing. (Doom9 has for the moment rendered AACS useless...Hip Hip Horay)

At this time Vista has no advantage over XP:

1. Media center is useless software unless you have a PVR/MC. Cyberlink makes a better product and made the original MC for MS. MC is in fact a SOFTWARE APPLICATION not an operating system.

2. XP is faster than Vista at all tasks including GAMES. Some people report 70 processes running.

3. The user interface of Vista runs from the memory of the video card and the best that can be said for it is that it is a poor rip-off of MAC OSX. Bread crumbs came from MAC and that came from Linux. Here mentioning the UNC might be a good idea. MS has decided to use warnings for every little change made on the system. "Are You Sure?" becomes a nagging question. Since they adapted a Linux style UNC you would think that MS would have moved to a journaled file system? No the left NTFS in place and eliminated indexing of open source file systems. They in fact left a whole bunch of Linux stuff back on the setup disc. Many people would say that the GUI looks better. After spending time with it I miss the UP arrow and bread crumbs reminds me of my MAC & Linux systems. The GUI uses more resources and helps to shorten the life of the video card since it stays in 3D mode. Most users "USE" their system like me and seldom see the desktop.

4. The search feature is nothing new since BeOS had search streams, Linux has streams, most would say that vista search is a direct copy of the MAC search feature (there are videos all over Google and You-Tube showing the lack of originality on the GUI). MS uses NTFS STREAMS for this and that is old news.

5. If not for DirectX millions of PC users would never look back and go to LINUX. DX is the thorn in the side of all users and open source fans. It is enshrined by MS and the fabrication of Craig Eisler who seems to have invented it as a sub contractor for MS. Who told you DX could not work on XP? It is the same OS after all. The can/can't thing has little to do with the issue; it can be better stated that, "Since XP support will end soon further devlopment of DX will be found on Windows Vista, thanks for your support!" DX is part of the shell game to move everyone to new computers. Yes MS and their partners Dell, Gateway, HP, and Sony all have dismal sales and are counting on Vista to bail them out.

Lots of people use the term "UNDER THE HOOD" when describing all of the innovation and improvements that MS has used on Vista. They don't even believe that BS "Down in da hood!" Vista is like a car or an iceberg are some of the other ways used to "Justify" a $400.00 rip-off of MAC, LinuX and BeOS. Folks Vista is XP with layers and layers of both hard and soft encryption and good ol' Windows Genuine Advantage that use AACS, DRM, TPM and DX10 to force you to get a new PC that runs around 60+ more or less out of the box.

You mentioned X Box 360. As it happens the XBOX360's USB HDDVD drive is what was used to nullify AACS protection that forces the PMP concept down users’ throats. Hackers, pirates and virus writers are all still in business with Vista but the people that pay for things pay dearly in terms of money, loss of privacy, innovation, activation, time and resources (energy). Bigger video cards asking for 650 W PSUs is not greener computing. I'm not alone in my views you can use Google and just stop skipping through by only reading all of the propaganda. If Vista were all that I would say so but after a close look, its just XP SP3 w/Pretty Pants on.

MS would have been gone years ago if they were not allowed to become a MONOPOLY. Spank MS in the pocket hold off on Vista and watch Ballmer attempt to punish China LOL
February 20, 2007 1:02:33 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........
Microsoft has made itself the lead organization of AACS LA (the encryption being implemented for HD Media), DRM (the encryption of various media not protected by AACS) and TPM ( hardware/software protection over anything not covered by AACS & DRM). Microsoft did this in order to appear more secure since Windows is affected by nearly 400,000 virii now. If they were TOLD to do it by the recording industry that is a stretch since MS is one of the owners of AACS (it even gets a cut for each disc sold) this is stated on the first page of the AACS LA site. The Federal Government attempted to break MS in two and FAILED. The fact is corporations like Warner Brothers, Sony and Walt Disney pay MS who sit at the center of the whole thing. (Doom9 has for the moment rendered AACS useless...Hip Hip Horay)

MS felt it needed to at least have some control of DRM, as it felt its attempted usage would be inevitable. 'Attempted' as its already been broken, and I don't think MS is crying over this.

At this time Vista has no advantage over XP:

1. Media center is useless software unless you have a PVR/MC. Cyberlink makes a better product and made the original MC for MS. MC is in fact a SOFTWARE APPLICATION not an operating system.

Completely disagree. Media Center is amazing for streaming my pics and videos seamlessly to my xbox360. most of whats in MS oses, like all linux distributions, are applications, not OS. But thats part of what you are paying for.


2. XP is faster than Vista at all tasks including GAMES. Some people report 70 processes running.

Firstly its marginal and secondly is mostly due to early versions of drivers. exactly the same situation when XP replaced ME/98, but now XP is faster.

3. The user interface of Vista runs from the memory of the video card and the best that can be said for it is that it is a poor rip-off of MAC OSX. Bread crumbs came from MAC and that came from Linux. Here mentioning the UNC might be a good idea. MS has decided to use warnings for every little change made on the system. "Are You Sure?" becomes a nagging question. Since they adapted a Linux style UNC you would think that MS would have moved to a journaled file system? No the left NTFS in place and eliminated indexing of open source file systems. They in fact left a whole bunch of Linux stuff back on the setup disc. Many people would say that the GUI looks better. After spending time with it I miss the UP arrow and bread crumbs reminds me of my MAC & Linux systems. The GUI uses more resources and helps to shorten the life of the video card since it stays in 3D mode. Most users "USE" their system like me and seldom see the desktop.

Vista is not a rip-off of MAC OSX. In fact Apple ripped off FreeBSD and xserv. The MAX OSX is in fact more like Win95/DOS as its a screen manager sitting on opengl sitting on FreeBSD rather then a graphical shell which is properly integrated, like Vista. This is proved by the power of DirectX10 compared to OpenGL.

4. The search feature is nothing new since BeOS had search streams, Linux has streams, most would say that vista search is a direct copy of the MAC search feature (there are videos all over Google and You-Tube showing the lack of originality on the GUI). MS uses NTFS STREAMS for this and that is old news.

Whilst other OSes have search features, does that mean MS should never incorporate it as they could be accused of copying ? KDE & GNOME are complete rip off of Windows.

5. If not for DirectX millions of PC users would never look back and go to LINUX. DX is the thorn in the side of all users and open source fans. It is enshrined by MS and the fabrication of Craig Eisler who seems to have invented it as a sub contractor for MS. Who told you DX could not work on XP? It is the same OS after all. The can/can't thing has little to do with the issue; it can be better stated that, "Since XP support will end soon further devlopment of DX will be found on Windows Vista, thanks for your support!" DX is part of the shell game to move everyone to new computers. Yes MS and their partners Dell, Gateway, HP, and Sony all have dismal sales and are counting on Vista to bail them out.

I run Linux both at work, and as a server at home. For desktop usage Linux does not get close to Windows. for example, I have moved XP hard disks to new computers and XP sets itself up with the new hardware. If I take a linux Hd and move to a new computer it freezes and has to be reinstalled.

Lots of people use the term "UNDER THE HOOD" when describing all of the innovation and improvements that MS has used on Vista. They don't even believe that BS "Down in da hood!" Vista is like a car or an iceberg are some of the other ways used to "Justify" a $400.00 rip-off of MAC, LinuX and BeOS. Folks Vista is XP with layers and layers of both hard and soft encryption and good ol' Windows Genuine Advantage that use AACS, DRM, TPM and DX10 to force you to get a new PC that runs around 60+ more or less out of the box.

This is pure emotion. You don't like Ms or Windows, fine thats your think.

You mentioned X Box 360. As it happens the XBOX360's USB HDDVD drive is what was used to nullify AACS protection that forces the PMP concept down users’ throats. Hackers, pirates and virus writers are all still in business with Vista but the people that pay for things pay dearly in terms of money, loss of privacy, innovation, activation, time and resources (energy). Bigger video cards asking for 650 W PSUs is not greener computing. I'm not alone in my views you can use Google and just stop skipping through by only reading all of the propaganda. If Vista were all that I would say so but after a close look, its just XP SP3 w/Pretty Pants on.

Like I said, MS sees DRM as forced but it is happy to minimise its effect. You are making my point for me. XP SP3 is your opinion, but this is a credit to MS as it puts so much into a SP that people expect big things.


MS would have been gone years ago if they were not allowed to become a MONOPOLY. Spank MS in the pocket hold off on Vista and watch Ballmer attempt to punish China LOL

No MS survives because, on the whole, it produces good software. If you look at software history you will see that the landscape can change overnight. e.g. Wordstar -> multimate -> word perfect -> word.

You don't like MS, thats fine, its your choice. Sounds emotional to me.
February 20, 2007 1:45:36 PM

I know far more people with a cracked version of Vista than a licensed version. I think most people aren't going to go for a license unless MS "patches" that particular issue. My copy was purchased but I wonder what % of computers are running illegal.
February 20, 2007 1:46:38 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.


Government maybe behind DRM Analog Hole, DMCA. If DRM is here to stay maybe MS taking the initiative to set a standard may benefit the consumers, most certainly MS will benefit IMO.

Can you post a link as to where you read about MS being sued if they didn’t incorporate DRM into Vista?This Inquirer article…
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37091
Mentions a Q & A on a Microsoft blog addressing DRM that is found here…
http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/...
Then there is this article…
http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Builds_DRM_fo...
About MS moving into AT&Ts phone jack…
Those poor programmers at Microsoft chained to their workstations by the government being forced to implement DRM. That is a gut wrenching concept for a fiction movie. The government makes laws, enforces laws and mismanages all of our money. Al Gore invented the internet, Remember? The DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) is the result of lawmakers meeting with Microsoft, MPAA, RIAA, Sun, MAC, (all) ISP’s, etc. to make a new series of taxable revenue streams in at that point the only “Free” place left in the world. Then after that everyone acts like they never downloaded a thing on Napster LOL
Microsoft was taken to court for being a MONOPOLY and were they broken up? Were they found guilty yes or no?
Microsoft is constantly in court here and around the globe. They get sued and do their own share of suing. They cannot be forced into much of anything and the RIAA and MPAA decided to PAY Microsoft (cut them in) for some protection. Folks we are watching the biggest crime syndicate of all times at work. I can give you link after link (you can hit Google yourself even better) showing how this whole thing that started with Metallica/Napster has matured into a huge protection racket and money making scheme.
To scale the magnitude of the whole thing; Bill gates has a home in Washington that cost him $70 Million. Do you really think he can be forced to do anything at all? The entire US government uses his products. The DoD uses his products. When MAC was in a jam the solution was for Bill Gates to be a partner.
Get this one through your heads: Bill Gates gave $140,000,000.00 US Dollars to Apple Computer that is Microsoft’s only competitor (Linux is OPEN SOURCE) in the entire world in exchange for what?? That was only 2 Bill Gates sized homes and that didn’t make a dent in Bill’s assets. Bill Gates cannot vote like other stock holders so what does he get? Does he buy the illusion of still having competition to legitimize his MONOPOLY? Did he walk up to Steve and say, “God Steve, I feel bad about MAC. Here take this $140,000,000.00 till you can get back on your feet, it’s no big deal!” Steve was brought back in by Bill Gates as part of the $140,000,000.00 deal to save Apple.
All of this goes on right in front of the Federal Trade Commission and dozens of other Federal and State agencies and I am the only person on this site who sees that as problematic? Take some deep breaths kids, even though Bill Gates can’t vote at Apple he in effect became his own competitor. There is no problem making money hand over fist but the fact is Microsoft is a MONOPOLY. Steve Ballmer thinks it is about time to spank the “Pirates” of China, Russia, India, etc. I wonder if Steve ever outsourced some of the work in copying Vista, I mean making Vista to any nice Indians or Russians?
It is all a game guys and girls and the pawns can become the Queens if they cross the board but that is only because we are all Microsoft’s bitches.
February 20, 2007 2:32:08 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........


The DRM I was referring to (admittedly, I used the wrong term here) is with MS's OWN products, and that IS MS's choice. Though I find it disturbing that I talked to some people that claim installing the ATI/AMD Catalyst drivers in Vista also installs Starforce.

My main point here is that blaming poor sales on piracy is a joke. For the most part, only a small percentage of users know how to obtain a pirated copy. In Eastern Europe and Asia where you can buy a pirated/cracked DVD its one thing, but most users in the US would have to download a cracked copy or something similar, and the majority of users still don't know how to do that. Furthermore, a valid argument can be made that in some ways piracy HELPS MS, since it does a lot, especially in emerging markets, to contribute to the ubiquity of their products.

Personally, Vista has nothing I really wont or need at this time. I am not a fan of Media Center, it doesn't work with my AIW card. The new explorer interface is is still inferior to Directory Opus or Explorer2 in my opinion, and I can wait a long time for DX10, since I won't be upgrading my card anytime soon. Yeah Aero is nice, and the fact that it takes advantage of the available memory better is nice (though for the most part it still runs apps slower than XP), but I can live without them.

And claiming that a linux install is a "much bigger" install than Vista is just false.

Yes, you CAN install linux in a way that has a larger footprint than Vista, but you are missing a few things here. Those large installs are generally full or custom installs than come with A TON of bundled software, such as music editing, Open Office or another productivity suite, games, mySQL database, server and networking tools, etc. Which of these does Vista include, and Notepad and solitaire/chess don't count. So you are comparing a fully loaded computer to a barebones operating system. Which do you think would be larger?

You CAN also install and use a fully working copy of Linux in less than 1 GB , including on a usb thumbdrive or a 700MB live CD. You CANNOT even come close to that with Vista (recommended 15GB free). So while you can make Linux a larger install than Vista, the majority of the time, it is much smaller when doing an actual apples to apples comparison.
February 20, 2007 2:34:02 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........
Microsoft has made itself the lead organization of AACS LA (the encryption being implemented for HD Media), DRM (the encryption of various media not protected by AACS) and TPM ( hardware/software protection over anything not covered by AACS & DRM). Microsoft did this in order to appear more secure since Windows is affected by nearly 400,000 virii now. If they were TOLD to do it by the recording industry that is a stretch since MS is one of the owners of AACS (it even gets a cut for each disc sold) this is stated on the first page of the AACS LA site. The Federal Government attempted to break MS in two and FAILED. The fact is corporations like Warner Brothers, Sony and Walt Disney pay MS who sit at the center of the whole thing. (Doom9 has for the moment rendered AACS useless...Hip Hip Horay)

MS felt it needed to at least have some control of DRM, as it felt its attempted usage would be inevitable. 'Attempted' as its already been broken, and I don't think MS is crying over this.

At this time Vista has no advantage over XP:

1. Media center is useless software unless you have a PVR/MC. Cyberlink makes a better product and made the original MC for MS. MC is in fact a SOFTWARE APPLICATION not an operating system.

Completely disagree. Media Center is amazing for streaming my pics and videos seamlessly to my xbox360. most of whats in MS oses, like all linux distributions, are applications, not OS. But thats part of what you are paying for.


2. XP is faster than Vista at all tasks including GAMES. Some people report 70 processes running.

Firstly its marginal and secondly is mostly due to early versions of drivers. exactly the same situation when XP replaced ME/98, but now XP is faster.

3. The user interface of Vista runs from the memory of the video card and the best that can be said for it is that it is a poor rip-off of MAC OSX. Bread crumbs came from MAC and that came from Linux. Here mentioning the UNC might be a good idea. MS has decided to use warnings for every little change made on the system. "Are You Sure?" becomes a nagging question. Since they adapted a Linux style UNC you would think that MS would have moved to a journaled file system? No the left NTFS in place and eliminated indexing of open source file systems. They in fact left a whole bunch of Linux stuff back on the setup disc. Many people would say that the GUI looks better. After spending time with it I miss the UP arrow and bread crumbs reminds me of my MAC & Linux systems. The GUI uses more resources and helps to shorten the life of the video card since it stays in 3D mode. Most users "USE" their system like me and seldom see the desktop.

Vista is not a rip-off of MAC OSX. In fact Apple ripped off FreeBSD and xserv. The MAX OSX is in fact more like Win95/DOS as its a screen manager sitting on opengl sitting on FreeBSD rather then a graphical shell which is properly integrated, like Vista. This is proved by the power of DirectX10 compared to OpenGL.

4. The search feature is nothing new since BeOS had search streams, Linux has streams, most would say that vista search is a direct copy of the MAC search feature (there are videos all over Google and You-Tube showing the lack of originality on the GUI). MS uses NTFS STREAMS for this and that is old news.

Whilst other OSes have search features, does that mean MS should never incorporate it as they could be accused of copying ? KDE & GNOME are complete rip off of Windows.

5. If not for DirectX millions of PC users would never look back and go to LINUX. DX is the thorn in the side of all users and open source fans. It is enshrined by MS and the fabrication of Craig Eisler who seems to have invented it as a sub contractor for MS. Who told you DX could not work on XP? It is the same OS after all. The can/can't thing has little to do with the issue; it can be better stated that, "Since XP support will end soon further devlopment of DX will be found on Windows Vista, thanks for your support!" DX is part of the shell game to move everyone to new computers. Yes MS and their partners Dell, Gateway, HP, and Sony all have dismal sales and are counting on Vista to bail them out.

I run Linux both at work, and as a server at home. For desktop usage Linux does not get close to Windows. for example, I have moved XP hard disks to new computers and XP sets itself up with the new hardware. If I take a linux Hd and move to a new computer it freezes and has to be reinstalled.

Lots of people use the term "UNDER THE HOOD" when describing all of the innovation and improvements that MS has used on Vista. They don't even believe that BS "Down in da hood!" Vista is like a car or an iceberg are some of the other ways used to "Justify" a $400.00 rip-off of MAC, LinuX and BeOS. Folks Vista is XP with layers and layers of both hard and soft encryption and good ol' Windows Genuine Advantage that use AACS, DRM, TPM and DX10 to force you to get a new PC that runs around 60+ more or less out of the box.

This is pure emotion. You don't like Ms or Windows, fine thats your think.

You mentioned X Box 360. As it happens the XBOX360's USB HDDVD drive is what was used to nullify AACS protection that forces the PMP concept down users’ throats. Hackers, pirates and virus writers are all still in business with Vista but the people that pay for things pay dearly in terms of money, loss of privacy, innovation, activation, time and resources (energy). Bigger video cards asking for 650 W PSUs is not greener computing. I'm not alone in my views you can use Google and just stop skipping through by only reading all of the propaganda. If Vista were all that I would say so but after a close look, its just XP SP3 w/Pretty Pants on.

Like I said, MS sees DRM as forced but it is happy to minimise its effect. You are making my point for me. XP SP3 is your opinion, but this is a credit to MS as it puts so much into a SP that people expect big things.


MS would have been gone years ago if they were not allowed to become a MONOPOLY. Spank MS in the pocket hold off on Vista and watch Ballmer attempt to punish China LOL

No MS survives because, on the whole, it produces good software. If you look at software history you will see that the landscape can change overnight. e.g. Wordstar -> multimate -> word perfect -> word.

You don't like MS, thats fine, its your choice. Sounds emotional to me.
No emotion was necessary buddy pal. MS is a MONOPOLY and like I said in the other thread, Bill Gates (Microsoft's CEO) publically stated that, "The average computer user has the mind of a spider monkey!"

MS exists since it has no competition or the illusion of competition provided by Apple. Your dependent on MS. Stop kidding yourself there are few things that MS has done over the years that are innovative. There is a good site you may enjoy reading called Why I Hate Microsoft. There are many more but he did much more research than I would be willing to do. Frankly at my age I see the issue as a voter and worker. With no competition a monopoly grows more and more dangerous.

Concerning computers MS has damaged many, many standards and continues to produce closed APIs that completely exclude everything NON MS. It isn't that you are not entitled to an opinion, you are and that is good. Your opinion does not correctly state the facts and you like a drug addict are as we speak "Under the Influence of MS" North American sales speak volumes about Vista. Go to Best Buy and find for me the Linux Laptop Section. Please show me the XP section. Please show me a running Linux gamming system.

You can't do it because Steve Ballmer wants to "Cut the cancer of open source out... That is the power of a Mega Monopoly. If you make a great software product you become a MS partner or they buy you out or simply CRUSH you. The only people that can stop MS now are the consumers. MS invests in ideas to tie you to your computer, tie the computer to you and wrap it in an MS bow.

In your post you articulated the reasons that you recommend Vista. In my reply I countered those reasons and stated that in my opinion $400.00 is out of line for what we get. I could have stated that many versions of the same product that is a rip off of MAC OSX add to the confusion. If I shove the AACS and PMP and DRM etc to the side we at best have an upgrade here.

Making it in BOLD does not make it more true, heck it is outsourced from the US so what can we do? Bill Gates and his crew intend to secure computing for me and even you. They will even encrypt a movie or two. It was the best of intentions to act like a cop and put that AACS in on our desktops I'll bet. Aero Glass is pretty I will give you that even though it looks just like my G5 MAC. Don’t be afraid simply upgrade or by a new desktop PC today. Vista’s selling a little bit slow and what about those stocks down, down they go. I know how we can make our money back let’s hunt those ‘Fin’ HACKERS DOWN and shoot them out back. If only they asked me I would have said, “Bill you don’t get it we don’t have the bread!”
February 20, 2007 3:07:43 PM

Make no mistake, MS IS a monopoly, defined by the following:

Single Seller: Having well over 85% PC market share essentially fulfills this criteria, especially since Linux flavors are not "sold"No close substitutes: Until recently, OSx would not run and the same hardware, and Linux is not a commercial product. And this doesn't even mention the fact that lack of DirectX and other software support makes them no substitute at all.Price maker: As evidenced by Vista pricing increases, MS feels they can charge what they want for their products without fear of customer backlash, due to the ubiquity provided by the first two pints above.

The reason MS has not been broken up or heavily fined is that they have not been judged to be a "harmful" monopoly. Though make no mistake, ALL monopolies are ultimately harmful to the consumer, (even the "legal" harmful monopolies run by the government) as they stifle innovation and drive prices up.
February 20, 2007 3:24:58 PM

Quote:


Making it in BOLD does not make it more true,

It was bold so you could see my answers in your morase of text, jeez



Monopolies don't exist in IT. Like I said in a previous post, new good technology has a habit of wiping out everything before in a matter of a year, e.g. Wordstar -> multimate -> word perfect -> word, or supercalc -> lotus 123 -> excel

Linux OS is not sold on the desktop as its crap compared to MS. not ignoring the hundreds of different distributions and no std for package control (deb, rpm, etc.), lack of integration with GUI, sub-std driver control system, etc.

MS may appear to be a monopoly, but in technology this is illusory. I have seen this again and again. and MS know it too, which is why they bring out new products all the time.

I think that some people just don't like winners. In any event sites like 'Ihatemicrosoft' are populated by single agenda people and have no comparative value.

Utimately I have used Solaris desktop, Linux (various flavours), Vista, MacOS and many others. I like MacOs alot, and would have bought a Macbook if it had a damn PCMCIA card. On the other hand you could argue that Apple sell overpriced, underpowered hardware just on style - many people attack them for this, but if it works - good luck to them!

I think Vista is the best desktop I have used to date. Its not perfect, but the longivity of XP has shown that MS is genuinely trying to move fwd rather then just doing an annual release.

Maybe something better then Windows will come along in time, and I will be the first in the queue. But my buying habits will be based on merit and not political vendettas against this or that organisation.
February 20, 2007 3:27:27 PM

Quote:
DRM is not MS's choice. Its being told to put it in, or film studios will sue.

Vista has many advantages over XP:
1. Media Centre redesigned and built in (the reason I bought it)
2. Fast with 2gb or more - better use of memory cache
3. Improved user interface
4. Great search facility
5. Directx 10 - only works with new GDI - could not be implemented in XP. However only flight simulator with nvidia 8800 currently using.

I upgraded from XP 64bit and there are actualy more drivers for Vista 64bit (i.e. my canon i850 printer now actually works again).

I think its quite cheap for the extra bits. With media centre my xbox 360 now can stream everything to my plasma - really excellent.

If you have XP and it works for you then you don't need to upgrade. But if there is something in Vista you want, I recommend it.

In terms of the bloatware argument, the list of vista features is extremely long. You can't get functionality without code. Last time I installed suse Linux it was a much bigger install then vista ........


The DRM I was referring to (admittedly, I used the wrong term here) is with MS's OWN products, and that IS MS's choice. Though I find it disturbing that I talked to some people that claim installing the ATI/AMD Catalyst drivers in Vista also installs Starforce.

My main point here is that blaming poor sales on piracy is a joke. For the most part, only a small percentage of users know how to obtain a pirated copy. In Eastern Europe and Asia where you can buy a pirated/cracked DVD its one thing, but most users in the US would have to download a cracked copy or something similar, and the majority of users still don't know how to do that. Furthermore, a valid argument can be made that in some ways piracy HELPS MS, since it does a lot, especially in emerging markets, to contribute to the ubiquity of their products.

Personally, Vista has nothing I really wont or need at this time. I am not a fan of Media Center, it doesn't work with my AIW card. The new explorer interface is is still inferior to Directory Opus or Explorer2 in my opinion, and I can wait a long time for DX10, since I won't be upgrading my card anytime soon. Yeah Aero is nice, and the fact that it takes advantage of the available memory better is nice (though for the most part it still runs apps slower than XP), but I can live without them.

And claiming that a linux install is a "much bigger" install than Vista is just false.

Yes, you CAN install linux in a way that has a larger footprint than Vista, but you are missing a few things here. Those large installs are generally full or custom installs than come with A TON of bundled software, such as music editing, Open Office or another productivity suite, games, mySQL database, server and networking tools, etc. Which of these does Vista include, and Notepad and solitaire/chess don't count. So you are comparing a fully loaded computer to a barebones operating system. Which do you think would be larger?

You CAN also install and use a fully working copy of Linux in less than 1 GB , including on a usb thumbdrive or a 700MB live CD. You CANNOT even come close to that with Vista (recommended 15GB free). So while you can make Linux a larger install than Vista, the majority of the time, it is much smaller when doing an actual apples to apples comparison.1) DRM is Digital Rights Management and that is a complex way of saying, "If you want to see or hear this insert your credit card here!"

2) PMP is the Protected Media Pathway and talks about hardware and software related to playing media and includes the WHQL and this says, "Did you get permission from Redmond to add that device that I can't find a digital signature for...(Like your AIW card. (I have one too) AIW are in a class action suit since they were supposed to be HD compliant. There is no chip on them with the AACS codes and yet the boxes clearly read HD ready or something like that)???

3) AACS LA is an organization and a system that prevents you complete access to your HD library that includes not being able to back up said HD library. MS is the #1 then Intel and Sony and Warner Bros and good ol Walt Disney. They own and control AACS and it is a thumb in my eye and leads back to the PMP. By the way set top boxes are also part of the PMP.

4) DMCA is the law that congress passed that created a new cash cow for anyone that could afford the cost of admission. It allowed MS to move into the movie business. Just look at the owners of AACS LA and then tell me that Warner Brothers and Walt Disney can sit at the same table without a conflict of interest. It can only be described by watching the movie "The Godfather" Who is protecting the consumer’s interests here?

4) RIAA is a bunch of lawyers and Lars from Metallica

5) MPAA is another bunch of lawyers

Taken as a whole I have lost interest in PCs since it is all boring legal mumbo jumbo about me spending more and more money.
February 20, 2007 3:34:26 PM

Quote:
Though make no mistake, ALL monopolies are ultimately harmful to the consumer, (even the "legal" harmful monopolies run by the government) as they stifle innovation and drive prices up.

Actually, it all depends on the monopoly. Ma Bell is a perfect example - it was first after they were forced to lease their lines to 3rd party vendors did telecommunication prices skyrocketed.

Many have argued that Apple's previous hardware-based monopoly forced users (mostly corporate) to go to a cheaper standard. Apple even gave away more than 10,000 of its computers to schools and they still couldn't monopolize the industry. MS allowed corporations to standardize their builds on cheaper (non-prop) hardware/software specs. It was a winning decision. They only became a monopoly after all the other options dropped out of the race. True, they made a lot of legally questionable choices like forcing every version of OS2 to count as a license for Windows - but the options to move forward with or without this company was made by corps/users and the industry became a monopoly by choice. Linux has been available for years, however I only know of a handful of corps in my area that are using it for anything more than webserving because of the price of support staff/services. There is a lot of room to innovate the same type of apps for Linux, and now Mac, but they apparently would rather stick to the same plans they have for years - again, monopoly by choices.
February 20, 2007 3:43:35 PM

Quote:


Making it in BOLD does not make it more true,

It was bold so you could see my answers in your morase of text, jeez



Monopolies don't exist in IT. Like I said in a previous post, new good technology has a habit of wiping out everything before in a matter of a year, e.g. Wordstar -> multimate -> word perfect -> word, or supercalc -> lotus 123 -> excel

Linux OS is not sold on the desktop as its crap compared to MS. not ignoring the hundreds of different distributions and no std for package control (deb, rpm, etc.), lack of integration with GUI, sub-std driver control system, etc.

MS may appear to be a monopoly, but in technology this is illusory. I have seen this again and again. and MS know it too, which is why they bring out new products all the time.

I think that some people just don't like winners. In any event sites like 'Ihatemicrosoft' are populated by single agenda people and have no comparative value.Microsoft is in fact and has in fact been ruled in Federal Court as a MONOPOLY... That completely nullifies your entire message. Microsoft has no competition. Nothing can rise up to compete with MS since monopolies by their nature prevent that from happening. That is why MS has a permanent face in court in both the US and around the world. 'IT' does not have anything to do w/ a monopoly. Corporations that charge money for goods or services that become the only game in town all you need for a monopoly to rise. They charge money and eliminate competition. MS controls price too since free trade does not exist. Here you would rather have MS be the exception to fair trade, rule of law, ethics, morality and common sense since you’re a junky for their dope.

As per BOLD, you did that to make your text dominante over what I wrote. What I said still stands it is in fact no more or less true even though it is BOLD.
February 20, 2007 3:46:51 PM

Just a small note. In US monopolies are legal. What's not legal is using the monopoly power to put away the competition.
February 20, 2007 3:47:47 PM

Quote:
Monopolies don't exist in IT. Like I said in a previous post, new good technology has a habit of wiping out everything before in a matter of a year, e.g. Wordstar -> multimate -> word perfect -> word, or supercalc -> lotus 123 -> excel


This is untrue. Look at AT&T, which is in a way an IT company. Or Apple, which has a monopoly on the PPC architecture. Plus, your analagy isn't relevant here, as the best software doesn't always replace the established software, and your examples above where from different companies, whereas Windows is always from MS.

Quote:
I think Vista is the best desktop I have used to date. Its not perfect, but the longivity of XP has shown that MS is genuinely trying to move fwd rather then just doing an annual release.
Really? That would explain why Vienna (MS's next operating system which at this point looks to be what Vista should have been), is currently scheduled for a 2009 (semi-annual) release?
February 20, 2007 3:49:12 PM

Quote:
Just a small note. In US monopolies are legal. What's not legal is using the monopoly power to put away the competition.


I know, thats why I said that MS's monopoly was judged not to be harmful.
February 20, 2007 3:49:46 PM

Quote:
Just a small note. In US monopolies are legal. What's not legal is using the monopoly power to put away the competition.

Also, MS was considered a monopoly only for certain parts of the software suite - like Windows Media Player because it was being bundled, but surprisingly not for Microsoft Word/Office.
February 20, 2007 4:31:36 PM

The four of you sound like Microsoft Attorneys! You are arguing your case for your client and looking for the loop-holes. Even if you miss on 3 points or more you still deny any wrong doing. I could paste the whole case in here and even the result. Microsoft was to be split up and was fined in the DoJ case. It was ruled to be a Monopoly and harmful.

Several events happened that changed the outcome of things:
1) George Bush and the Republicans
2) Alberto Gonzo appointed to Att.Gen
3) The 109th congress
4) MPAA
5) RIAA
6) DMCA
February 20, 2007 4:35:41 PM

Quote:
Just a small note. In US monopolies are legal. What's not legal is using the monopoly power to put away the competition.

Also, MS was considered a monopoly only for certain parts of the software suite - like Windows Media Player because it was being bundled, but surprisingly not for Microsoft Word/Office.

I can understand the Word/Office choice, since they are purchased separately and there are viable alternatives such as Word Perfect and Open Office on the market. In fact, for my home needs I have switched completely to Open Office and have never had any problems or complaints, other than that it occasionally mis-formats some Word docs, which I expected.

The two best examples are WMP and IE. They are both average products (IE doesn't render HTML correctly and developers have to write "bad" pages to get it to look right, and WMP is just blah in my opinion. What is up with the fact that I try to open a file after updating, it takes me through that annoying setup for the hundredth time, resetting my previous choices to the defaults by the way, and then opens up WITHOUT opening my file!?) that have better alternatives out there, and I don't think either would have the popularity they do if they weren't bundled with Windows. Further, neither of them is really free bundled software since a) you need a valid Windows license to download them, and b) you can bet your ass that the cost of their development was factored into the cost of Windows.
February 20, 2007 4:45:37 PM

Quote:
I can understand the Word/Office choice, since they are purchased separately and there are viable alternatives such as Word Perfect and Open Office on the market.

Yeah, I use OpenOffice at home, but isn't Office something like 90% of the market for software office suites? And didn't a suite (I want to say Correl) have some kind of lawsuit over MS forcing any app that wanted to use office docs had to comply by special "MS standards" that caused it to break other office suites? The ruling only really specified monopoly by whether it was bundled for free as unfair competition, not whether it forced standards that disabled other apps. I thought that was the strange part.
February 20, 2007 4:55:38 PM

Quote:
I can understand the Word/Office choice, since they are purchased separately and there are viable alternatives such as Word Perfect and Open Office on the market.

Yeah, I use OpenOffice at home, but isn't Office something like 90% of the market for software office suites? And didn't a suite (I want to say Correl) have some kind of lawsuit over MS forcing any app that wanted to use office docs had to comply by special "MS standards" that caused it to break other office suites? The ruling only really specified monopoly by whether it was bundled for free as unfair competition, not whether it forced standards that disabled other apps. I thought that was the strange part.

I think so, because many suites are moving to ODF (open document format), and I think MS has been lagging here. I think that even their new XMl based formatting isn't ODF compliant, but I could be wrong there.
February 20, 2007 5:19:14 PM

I don't see why Microsoft decided to charge so much for Vista other than sticking it to their customers yet again. I am surprised that I haven't heard too many people complain about it. IMO it's a bit ridiculous. (Along with a lot of other things that Microsoft does)

What irks me even more is that I HAVE to upgrade to Vista eventually to get DirectX 10. Maybe in a year or two I'll be forced to buy it once the newness wears off and the prices go down.

I use my computer for 3 things.

1. Web Development
2. Graphic Design
3. Gaming

I can do 1 and 2 just fine in XP. If I wasn't such a heavy gamer I wouldn't be using windows at all but for this reason I am stuck with using Windows. 3 can wait for better driver support and better prices.

Hell maybe Microsoft will be forced to release DirectX 10 on XP once they realize how Vista isn't selling like they hoped to? nahh I doubt it but it would be wishful thinking.
February 20, 2007 5:21:11 PM

Honestly, if we should be upset, it should be at the game developers. If they'd make games without DX, we wouldn't be forced into an eventual Vista upgrade. It's not Microsoft's fault that they've put a ton of effort developing DX (simplifying writing code for specific hardware) to make it easier for developers to produce games.

If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment. They've put a lot of work into it and the game developers have fully adopted it, and the devs have bailed on OpenGL for the most part. That's not MS's fault that the developers have effectively made MS a monopoly as far as gaming is concerned. I'll pay twice the price of a game for DX, I just don't want the bloated OS that comes with it..

All the MS haters should tell the game developers that you won't buy their games if they won't run without DX.. and how many of you complaining about Microsoft have an XBox/360?

I don't like where the future of computing is headed at all.. I don't care about downloading "free" software/movies/music. I pay for everything I use. However, I'm pretty pissed that I've got to fork over another $675 to Dell for a 2nd monitor where the only difference is a slight change in stand/bezel and HDCP compliance. Screw that.. you better believe I'm going to buy my Blu-Ray and HD DVDs, then rip them away from their DRM/AACS/Lars crap, just so I can watch them on my non-HDCP current monitor. I'm going to continue ripping my bought DVD/CDs to my house network server, so I can play them in my bedroom, living room, or patio without carrying around CDs. I'll continue putting these ripped MP3s on my laptop and mp3 player for use at work and the gym. And I'm not doing anything wrong with any of it. I'm not sharing/giving any of it away.. and it's just a royal pain in the ass that these companies think they can stop piracy.. everything will be eventually hacked, so a majority of the honorable and innocent users are getting screwed (like those who don't know how to rip a movie, or forked over $1000 for a monitor that is HD/1080p but not HDCP compliant). Just like all those who put a Sony Rootkit-embedded CD in their machine..

You know what this reminds me of? Gun control.. the people who want to use guns are going to get them regardless of how hard the government tries to eliminate them. Prevention simply doesn't work.. punishment for crimes committed is how laws are enforced. Look at crime in the so-called more 'inhumane' countries.. steal something and lose a hand. Yeah, crime is a lot higher in the developed world since punishments are usually a slap on the wrist.. people just aren't afraid of the punishments here..
February 20, 2007 5:32:14 PM

Quote:
Microsoft shall not retaliate against an OEM by altering Microsoft's commercial relations with that OEM, or by withholding newly introduced forms of non-monetary Consideration (including but not limited to new versions of existing forms of non-monetary Consideration) from that OEM, because it is known to Microsoft that the OEM is or is contemplating:

developing, distributing, promoting, using, selling, or licensing any software that competes with Microsoft Platform Software or any product or service that distributes or promotes any Non-Microsoft Middleware;

shipping a Personal Computer that (a) includes both a Windows Operating System Product and a non-Microsoft Operating System, or (b) will boot with more than one Operating System; or

exercising any of the options or alternatives provided for under this Final Judgment.
Nothing in this provision shall prohibit Microsoft from enforcing any provision of any license with any OEM or any intellectual property right that is not inconsistent with this Final Judgment. Microsoft shall not terminate a Covered OEM's license for a Windows Operating System Product without having first given the Covered OEM written notice of the reasons for the proposed termination and not less than thirty days' opportunity to cure. Notwithstanding the foregoing, Microsoft shall have no obligation to provide such a termination notice and opportunity to cure to any Covered OEM that has received two or more such notices during the term of its Windows Operating System Product license.

Nothing in this provision shall prohibit Microsoft from providing Consideration to any OEM with respect to any Microsoft product or service where that Consideration is commensurate with the absolute level or amount of that OEM's development, distribution, promotion, or licensing of that Microsoft product or service.
So now what did MS do????
Now they have business partners: Dell, HP, Gatway, Sony and more. The monopoly has grown! Steve B is a wack job. I allways get a kick out of THE MONKEY BOY DANCE VIDEO YEyeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa !! Other times I wonder why I'm not a DEVLOPER DEVLOPER DEVLOPER??? Yet THIS is a classic!!!Remember its all fun and games untill someone looses an eye!
February 20, 2007 5:40:02 PM

Quote:
If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment. They've put a lot of work into it and the game developers have fully adopted it, and the devs have bailed on OpenGL for the most part. That's not MS's fault that the developers have effectively made MS a monopoly as far as gaming is concerned.


That is something I would pay for, as it is one of the 2 or 3 things keeping me from going to Linux. On the other hand, the Linux die-hards would throw a sh!t f!t if they tried it.

I also agree with you that DRM is a flawed concept that only harms honest consumers.

Ms IS partially to blame for DirectX reliance, but no more so than the Hardware/driver vendors and the game developers. And the people that bough DX games vs OpenGL games.
February 20, 2007 5:45:33 PM

Quote:
If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment.

Seriously, the Linux community is so anti-MS that it would never be worthwhile. However, if Linux was able to get their act together and create a compatible tech. it may be worth it. However, having used Linux for years, I know the community would need to seriously change their behavior to get their act together for this and they have problems with just getting non-game standards in place.
February 20, 2007 5:48:30 PM

Quote:
Honestly, if we should be upset, it should be at the game developers. If they'd make games without DX, we wouldn't be forced into an eventual Vista upgrade. It's not Microsoft's fault that they've put a ton of effort developing DX (simplifying writing code for specific hardware) to make it easier for developers to produce games.

If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment. They've put a lot of work into it and the game developers have fully adopted it, and the devs have bailed on OpenGL for the most part. That's not MS's fault that the developers have effectively made MS a monopoly as far as gaming is concerned. I'll pay twice the price of a game for DX, I just don't want the bloated OS that comes with it..

All the MS haters should tell the game developers that you won't buy their games if they won't run without DX.. and how many of you complaining about Microsoft have an XBox/360?

I don't like where the future of computing is headed at all.. I don't care about downloading "free" software/movies/music. I pay for everything I use. However, I'm pretty pissed that I've got to fork over another $675 to Dell for a 2nd monitor where the only difference is a slight change in stand/bezel and HDCP compliance. Screw that.. you better believe I'm going to buy my Blu-Ray and HD DVDs, then rip them away from their DRM/AACS/Lars crap, just so I can watch them on my non-HDCP current monitor. I'm going to continue ripping my bought DVD/CDs to my house network server, so I can play them in my bedroom, living room, or patio without carrying around CDs. I'll continue putting these ripped MP3s on my laptop and mp3 player for use at work and the gym. And I'm not doing anything wrong with any of it. I'm not sharing/giving any of it away.. and it's just a royal pain in the ass that these companies think they can stop piracy.. everything will be eventually hacked, so a majority of the honorable and innocent users are getting screwed (like those who don't know how to rip a movie, or forked over $1000 for a monitor that is HD/1080p but not HDCP compliant). Just like all those who put a Sony Rootkit-embedded CD in their machine..

You know what this reminds me of? Gun control.. the people who want to use guns are going to get them regardless of how hard the government tries to eliminate them. Prevention simply doesn't work.. punishment for crimes committed is how laws are enforced. Look at crime in the so-called more 'inhumane' countries.. steal something and lose a hand. Yeah, crime is a lot higher in the developed world since punishments are usually a slap on the wrist.. people just aren't afraid of the punishments here..
It does not work that way, businesses have budgets. Write some code to be used and you will see why. Closed Source!!! Otherwise DX would have been ported and I would be running Mandriva on this box. Be it a game or an accounting application the writer never sees the MS OS source. Drivers are another issue since they have to be part of WHQL now. This is all well and good for MS. Say your coding a game. After all of that you would have to do it all again and not have DX so that it can be say GL. There is simply no way to do it cost effectively. All of this makes MS a monopoly. The only way to send Bill and Steve a message is to ignore Vista and send them e-mail explaining why they are over the top.
February 20, 2007 5:57:22 PM

Where's the option, "becuase I'll get one for free later"? :D 

My university will give each student a free copy of Vista, just have to wait for a while...which I have no problem with
February 20, 2007 6:07:43 PM

Also, where's the option of "Waiting until next major hardware upgrade"?

:p 
February 20, 2007 6:18:20 PM

Quote:
It does not work that way, businesses have budgets. Write some code to be used and you will see why. Closed Source!!! Otherwise DX would have been ported and I would be running Mandriva on this box. Be it a game or an accounting application the writer never sees the MS OS source. Drivers are another issue since they have to be part of WHQL now. This is all well and good for MS. Say your coding a game. After all of that you would have to do it all again and not have DX so that it can be say GL. There is simply no way to do it cost effectively. All of this makes MS a monopoly. The only way to send Bill and Steve a message is to ignore Vista and send them e-mail explaining why they are over the top.

I do write some code.. in fact, I'm a software engineer on a team of 50 developers. I'm simply stating an option I'd love Microsoft to consider (though I know they won't since it would prove that without DX10, a majority of enthusiasts/gamers would go to Linux).. instead of dishing out $200 for Vista, charge me $100 for a pre-compiled Linux version of DX10.. inherently impossible to go with all the flavors of Linux available today. My point wasn't from a business aspect, but more to prove that without DX, Linux would be the preferred OS. I'd rather run Linux with DX than Vista with DX. It's just unfortunate that the former isn't an option.
February 20, 2007 6:19:50 PM

Quote:
If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment. They've put a lot of work into it and the game developers have fully adopted it, and the devs have bailed on OpenGL for the most part. That's not MS's fault that the developers have effectively made MS a monopoly as far as gaming is concerned.


That is something I would pay for, as it is one of the 2 or 3 things keeping me from going to Linux. On the other hand, the Linux die-hards would throw a sh!t f!t if they tried it.

I also agree with you that DRM is a flawed concept that only harms honest consumers.

Ms IS partially to blame for DirectX reliance, but no more so than the Hardware/driver vendors and the game developers. And the people that bough DX games vs OpenGL games.Look at the SIG you use here. It happens to be a quote from the movie "The Usual Suspects" and yet you never listed that. Thusly you have infringed on the content of that movie. You don't make any money with is and that is good for you. Since you don't make it clear that you are not the author of the quote and in fact it is a quote you are then infringing on someone else’s quote. This is what we are reduced to in all of this DRM. A lawyer from the MPAA could have you take that down.

The band Metallica, had a 'CHORD PATTERN' copy written and now can legally have you (should you play that pattern) stopped. Show me anything that has not gone over the top in the world today. More over the top is a whole bunch of computer users (US) still thinking that MS is as cool as Velcro. One of you guys has Vista (likes it too) and XBOX360 and streams bla bla. Imagine this dude. MS has a business partner called Sony. This Sony Company makes a device known as a Play Station 3. It uses Blue Ray and is competing against the X Box that is made by Microsoft?? But the 2 businesses are business partners. They are both part of TPM and both part of AACS and Sony makes consumer PCs loaded with Windows Vista?? So are they competing or are they partners?? Tick tock tick toc DING!! It does not matter to them what you by since it’s all over priced junk. They are all together and have a common goal. Honestly watch "The Godfather" and see what model today’s tech is built on.
February 20, 2007 6:23:37 PM

Quote:
If Microsoft wanted to make some honest cash.. I'd fully support then charging $50-100 for just a Linux compatible DX9/10+ runtime environment.

Seriously, the Linux community is so anti-MS that it would never be worthwhile. However, if Linux was able to get their act together and create a compatible tech. it may be worth it. However, having used Linux for years, I know the community would need to seriously change their behavior to get their act together for this and they have problems with just getting non-game standards in place.Steve Ballmer says, "Open source is a cancer..." Now according to open source it has to be OPEN so DX is closed and hence there will NEVER be DX in open anything!
February 20, 2007 6:35:41 PM

Quote:
It does not work that way, businesses have budgets. Write some code to be used and you will see why. Closed Source!!! Otherwise DX would have been ported and I would be running Mandriva on this box. Be it a game or an accounting application the writer never sees the MS OS source. Drivers are another issue since they have to be part of WHQL now. This is all well and good for MS. Say your coding a game. After all of that you would have to do it all again and not have DX so that it can be say GL. There is simply no way to do it cost effectively. All of this makes MS a monopoly. The only way to send Bill and Steve a message is to ignore Vista and send them e-mail explaining why they are over the top.

I do write some code.. in fact, I'm a software engineer on a team of 50 developers. I'm simply stating an option I'd love Microsoft to consider (though I know they won't since it would prove that without DX10, a majority of enthusiasts/gamers would go to Linux).. instead of dishing out $200 for Vista, charge me $100 for a pre-compiled Linux version of DX10.. inherently impossible to go with all the flavors of Linux available today. My point wasn't from a business aspect, but more to prove that without DX, Linux would be the preferred OS. I'd rather run Linux with DX than Vista with DX. It's just unfortunate that the former isn't an option.Open source can't be closed and considered open source, we then have closed source and hence the MONOPOLY that is Microsoft. The better way is to pass on Vista and pass on everything that is MS till they actually listen to the actual people that paid for all this crap to begin with, WE PARENTS! If Bill and or Steve want to quit then that is not a problem to me.
February 20, 2007 6:36:57 PM

Quote:
Where's the option, "becuase I'll get one for free later"? :D 

My university will give each student a free copy of Vista, just have to wait for a while...which I have no problem with


Re-Read the thread title... additionally this thread is meant for people upgrading and not purchasing a new computer. I should have been more clear in that, but you'll get people who just want to post something even though the thread doesn't apply to them.
February 20, 2007 6:42:28 PM

Quote:
Look at the SIG you use here. It happens to be a quote from the movie "The Usual Suspects" and yet you never listed that. Thusly you have infringed on the content of that movie. You don't make any money with is and that is good for you. Since you don't make it clear that you are not the author of the quote and in fact it is a quote you are then infringing on someone else’s quote. This is what we are reduced to in all of this DRM. A lawyer from the MPAA could have you take that down.


Well, actually no they couldn't. Its not their quote, they used a modified quote from the French Poet Baudelaire over 150 years ago (1864) which has been reused many many times, so they have no right to sue me or complain.

You can say the same about my other quote, Jay-z and hundreds of other have used it, but it is actually an ancient Chinese saying from the around the time of Confucius, though I can't remember if its attributed to him or not.

But I understand the point you are trying to make.
February 20, 2007 6:44:09 PM

Quote:
Also, where's the option of "Waiting until next major hardware upgrade"?

:p 


Because the question is why have you skipped the upgrade til now?

Not when you do plan to upgrade? How long will it take you to save for it etc.

If the question doesn't pertain to you then don't vote. Remember this poll is based on an Article in which Ballmer blames pirates for slow sales of Vista.
February 20, 2007 7:08:52 PM

FYI, Closed Source != Monopoly by any means. I have written both "open" and closed source code for clients, and I had competition for both. Plus, I got paid equally well for both.

We are getting away from the core discussions here. Why do people think Vista Sales suck, and is piracy to blame? Or is it that people aren't buying PCs that come bundled with it? Is it because they see no value? Is it because they hate MS? Etc.
February 20, 2007 8:00:24 PM

Quote:
FYI, Closed Source != Monopoly by any means. I have written both "open" and closed source code for clients, and I had competition for both. Plus, I got paid equally well for both.

We are getting away from the core discussions here. Why do people think Vista Sales suck, and is piracy to blame? Or is it that people aren't buying PCs that come bundled with it? Is it because they see no value? Is it because they hate MS? Etc.
Good point about the topic....
Most of the people on this site are younger. That being said the United States is at WAR. Those of you that have utility bills know that all energy costs are on the rise. Computers are not costing less they are on the rise too. It is a proven fact that young people don't care about anything older people care about. The old know that the end is coming and the young just want to party and get laid.

$400.00 is a lot for a kid to pay for an operating system. How much is the new ATI card going to cost?? How much is that cable connection each and every month?? $2.50 per gallon of heating fuel in the winter and you can forget Vista. Steve and Bill are out of touch with the consumers that support them.

Take a Bill Gates look at the world. He donates money to his own foundation and that donation is 100% tax deductable off the top. Let me ask my kids if Bill got them books for school or helped the poor in America. The money goes into a foundation and then some goes to help some Indians in India and then some goes to a fuel plant in the same area as those Indians and the pollution is killing them all but that is how the owners of the world do it. Everything is an illusion except the bullets.

Steve is greedy and once you get to $400.00 we enter an area that is simply insane. There are more poor people in the world and people getting poor like me then wealthy. The war is taking its toll on the world. There is a point that people get depressed and I know many who are on "the edge". Everything in life including life is on a curve. Humanity's journey is pictured as a steep hill with an equally steep hill on the other side. The expression is what goes up comes down.

Sorry to say, except for the younger folks computers are just tools. The gamers have to throw down the big bucks and most are rich white kids. I wonder how many of you know how people could tell that the US was in bad shape during the Regan Years? If you lost your job you had to report to the unemployment office every two weeks for your check. At one point the lines were so long they called the Red Cross. Now you get your check in the mail or direct deposited and you collect on the phone or computer so the true numbers are hidden.

Now the number is based on some voodoo magic now but in a nutshell the government does not know if you go back to work or not and you can only collect once a year. Good news though the maximum are for the Army is now 45. The young guys that can still run will be blocked by all the 40yos w/ back problems. This is related to the topic since Steve does not understand that he and Bill are where they are because of all of us or because of your parents.

My kids wanted PS3 and I want them to have a fighting chance at something better than a 3rd world country. PS3 causes the cash to go to Japan. My kids will need jobs here. They want to DEVLOPE DEVLOPE DEVLOPE and decide to work for Redmond. They say sorry and if you talk to the workers they don't speak English and many have work visas from Russia, India, China and the rest of the places that Steve B is now blaming for the slow sales.

How many people run around yelling DEVLOPERS DEVLOPERS DEVLOPERS and then wind up getting surgery to their vocal chords that you know?? I know of one man named Steve Ballmer that has done just that several times now.

Save your money and if anything buy actual REAL GOLD since computers will not help if we have food riots and those like mass blackouts are on the way!

PS: I decided to read other things an if there was any question about why sales of MS are slightly depressed it would appear that this looks like the place the cash is going HERE
February 20, 2007 9:00:09 PM

Most people aren't buying it because they:

a) Don't know about it.
b) Aren't buying a new computer that comes with it.

I'm talking about Joe Schmo consumer... not ethusiasts such as myself and most of the people that post here. Business are always slow to adopt new OSes, so those that have moved to XP won't be in a hurry to upgrade to Vista.

Once the really cheap XP machines go away... expect Vista OEM sales to increase.
February 20, 2007 9:05:07 PM

Sheesh... talk about babbling...

I don't know what the hell you're going on about... but it doesn't seem to have much to do with Windows Vista.
February 20, 2007 9:06:03 PM

Quote:
Good point about the topic....
Most of the people on this site are younger. That being said the United States is at WAR. Those of you that have utility bills know that all energy costs are on the rise. Computers are not costing less they are on the rise too. It is a proven fact that young people don't care about anything older people care about. The old know that the end is coming and the young just want to party and get laid.

$400.00 is a lot for a kid to pay for an operating system. How much is the new ATI card going to cost?? How much is that cable connection each and every month?? $2.50 per gallon of heating fuel in the winter and you can forget Vista. Steve and Bill are out of touch with the consumers that support them.

Take a Bill Gates look at the world. He donates money to his own foundation and that donation is 100% tax deductable off the top. Let me ask my kids if Bill got them books for school or helped the poor in America. The money goes into a foundation and then some goes to help some Indians in India and then some goes to a fuel plant in the same area as those Indians and the pollution is killing them all but that is how the owners of the world do it. Everything is an illusion except the bullets.

Steve is greedy and once you get to $400.00 we enter an area that is simply insane. There are more poor people in the world and people getting poor like me then wealthy. The war is taking its toll on the world. There is a point that people get depressed and I know many who are on "the edge". Everything in life including life is on a curve. Humanity's journey is pictured as a steep hill with an equally steep hill on the other side. The expression is what goes up comes down.

My kids wanted PS3 and I want them to have a fighting chance at something better than a 3rd world country. PS3 causes the cash to go to Japan. My kids will need jobs here. They want to DEVLOPE DEVLOPE DEVLOPE and decide to work for Redmond. They say sorry and if you talk to the workers they don't speak English and many have work visas from Russia, India, China and the rest of the places that Steve B is now blaming for the slow sales.

How many people run around yelling DEVLOPERS DEVLOPERS DEVLOPERS and then wind up getting surgery to their vocal chords that you know?? I know of one man named Steve Ballmer that has done just that several times now.

Save your money and if anything buy actual REAL GOLD since computers will not help if we have food riots and those like mass blackouts are on the way!

PS: I decided to read other things an if there was any question about why sales of MS are slightly depressed it would appear that this looks like the place the cash is going

A little dramatic, eh? People have been saying the world is getting more difficult to live in for hundreds of years. Rich get richer and poor get poorer. Guess that's why the USA is the only country where a higher percentage of poor are obese than any other.. and it's only getting worse. At least we're not starving. Pitch the $5/day smoking habit, $50/week alcohol habit, and extra $50/week food habit and poverty wouldn't be as bad of an issue. Reduce the amount of kids you're having that you can't afford, and quit buying wheels more expensive than your car. Show up to work on a daily basis and work hard, and you will move up the ladder. Apathy is the problem. Social issues are of concern on this topic more than how much MS charges for Vista, or where money for PS3s and foreign cars go. That's insignificant compared to the pot/coke money the poor (as well as the middle/rich) shovel in the direction of central America every year.
February 20, 2007 9:07:59 PM

I somewhat agree. I find that when I talk to Joe average about it I get that they've heard a little about it and either:

They want to know if its worth it, to which I tell them the truth, which for their needs is usually no.
They want to know if they need it, which unless they are hardcore gamers I always say no.
They already have an opinion about whether they want it or not, which is usually that they will get it when it comes with their next upgrade, but that they are not planning on doing anything special to get it.

This is just from personal experience mind you, not a generalization.

As for businesses, I don't know of any adopting it now, though I know its getting harder to get XP PCs from Dell. I think it will be the end of the year at lease before they start looking at it.
!