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February 21, 2007 12:04:05 AM

I would like one of two things.

1) Someone at the THG Hardware site post an article on that site speaking some more realistic opinions about Vista and its sales performance
or
2) Enough forum members get together to publish a collective Email to Ballmer letting him know we see his piracy claim for what it is....BS.

IMO Vista is not selling poorly because of pirates...its selling poorly because of history, performance and packaging, just to name a few.

How many times has MS said 'this is the "IT" OS, the OS to end all OS's. The ONE" then uterlly failed to deliver on promises?

How many billions of $ of hard earned income have been stolen because of security flaws in MS OSs?

How bloated have MS's OS become? So bloated, that MS must now increase that bloat further by adding trickware to steal some of the performance back from the bloat.

How is Vista a new OS? Without the new file system, what is Vista? Vista is to XP as ME was to 98SE....a glorified service pack....oh yeah, except it comes with DX 10 :roll:

MS needs to learn 2 age old axioms.

1) You can lie to all of the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you cant lie to all of the people all of the time.

2) Once bitten, twice shy.

Everyone who has owned a MS OS has been bitten at least once, even if they dont know it. Vista isnt selling because too many people are too wary of being bitten by MS again, and are waiting to see others get bitten.

Ballmer and MS would do much for their own credability if they saced up and said "yes, we know our OS's are information sieves, and we know they are operationally flawed, but we are working on it" rather than playing their standard denial game and pointing the finger at everyone else. [/soapbox]

More about : question

February 21, 2007 3:57:04 AM

I think the best plan is to use Vista till it asks to be activated then format the system and put XP back on. This way Bill and Steve can speculate on what to do and we may get to watch Steve do a new "Temper Bear Dance" ??
February 22, 2007 3:01:08 PM

Vista is also selling poorly because numerous reviews have said to wait until sp1 is released for it, making it seem like sp1 will fix every problem with vista.
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February 22, 2007 4:36:34 PM

Quote:
1) Someone at the THG Hardware site post an article on that site speaking some more realistic opinions about Vista and its sales performance

I'll work on the first after I finish that review of 3DMark06 vs 05.
February 23, 2007 11:49:26 PM

Why does it matter how Vista sells?

It's a piece of software, it's not a rapist after your children. You don't
like it? Don't use it. Some people take a piece of software so seriously
around here.

It's almost as bad as the Mac vs. PC debates. Put this much effort into
something that actually matters people, not software.

I like Vista a lot, it didn't sell well, well crap I guess I better take it back. :( 
February 24, 2007 12:46:12 AM

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!
February 24, 2007 6:09:48 AM

Quote:
Why does it matter how Vista sells?

It's a piece of software, it's not a rapist after your children. You don't
like it? Don't use it. Some people take a piece of software so seriously
around here.

It's almost as bad as the Mac vs. PC debates. Put this much effort into
something that actually matters people, not software.

I like Vista a lot, it didn't sell well, well crap I guess I better take it back. :( 


No, MS is a rapist after my wallet. Im not using it and would love to continue not using it. I would have loved to continued not using XP. Thats not the point.

The point is the consumer public not accepting a product which is incomplete, not what it promises and crap, and the manufacturer trying to place blame anywhere else but themselves.

If you went out and bought a car that boasted a 5 star safety rating because you wanted that to protect you children, then got in an accident where the damage sustained was much higher than it should have been, would you accept excuses from the manufacturer?

Why do people accept excuses from MS? MS touts its "content rich experiance", yet all it is are faster and more clever ways to make your system accesible to advertising, in the process creating greater security risks? Why is this acceptable?

MS had to 'cheat' to prevent Vista from being slower than XP, and only just barely suceeded. Why is that acceptable?

MS is forcing new standards on the hardware industry. Thats like a tire manufacturer telling an auto manufacturer "These are the tires we are going to provide, in order for the tire to funtion optimally, your car must wiegh no more than this, have a wieght distribution of that, a springrate thus etc."

That Vista is nothing more than XP SP3.x is of no concern. That its actually worse than XP is of no concern. That MS is placing blame rather than accepting it, as they usually do, is.

I dont want vista, just I didnt want XP, but like XP, when MS drops support for XP, I will have little choice if I wish to maintain compatability.
February 24, 2007 6:10:12 AM

uh whatever
February 24, 2007 3:06:54 PM

Quote:
The point is the consumer public not accepting a product which is incomplete, not what it promises and crap, and the manufacturer trying to place blame anywhere else but themselves.


Average Joe Conusmer has no idea what Vista is and that's why retail sales are slow. Also, since buying Vista means that a LOT of computers would have to be upgraded, a lot of people are simply waiting to purchase a new computer that has it preinstalled. Most of the customers I talk to are aware of Vista (somewhat), but are unsure of exactly what it's all about... and the same thing happened with XP.

Add to that the fact that there are three editions of Vista on store shelves and the price point... people don't want to buy something they know little about. Especially if that something is almost $300 (Ultimate Upgrade).

Average Joe Consumer knows nothing about DRM. They know nothing about hardware compatibility issues. They know little about any of the points you made except one: price. And when there are that many unknowns for most people, they aren't going to spend the money. MS will have to depend on OEM sales in the next little while.
February 24, 2007 9:00:13 PM

Quote:
The point is the consumer public not accepting a product which is incomplete, not what it promises and crap, and the manufacturer trying to place blame anywhere else but themselves.


Average Joe Conusmer has no idea what Vista is and that's why retail sales are slow. Also, since buying Vista means that a LOT of computers would have to be upgraded, a lot of people are simply waiting to purchase a new computer that has it preinstalled. Most of the customers I talk to are aware of Vista (somewhat), but are unsure of exactly what it's all about... and the same thing happened with XP.

Add to that the fact that there are three editions of Vista on store shelves and the price point... people don't want to buy something they know little about. Especially if that something is almost $300 (Ultimate Upgrade).

Average Joe Consumer knows nothing about DRM. They know nothing about hardware compatibility issues. They know little about any of the points you made except one: price. And when there are that many unknowns for most people, they aren't going to spend the money. MS will have to depend on OEM sales in the next little while.Zoron, I find it interesting that you tend to "correct" people on this site. You have no way of knowing why Vista sales are in a slump nor does anyone else. You can draw some conclusions based on assumptions and still be way off the mark. I had posted my feelings on this question and I believe that (I speak of US sales) our US economy is in something called "Stagflation" and since energy costs are on the rise there is less disposable income to be spent on a $300.00 dysfunctional operating system.

The US is at war and if you’re in the weapons business then you are making great returns right now. Here in the US the unemployment rate is on the rise. Maybe some of these factors might play a lesser or greater role in sales of computer operating systems. It is a fact that the US is at war and energy prices are on the rise. I am 100% positive that you can't refute that fact.

When you brought up Joe Consumer I had to laugh since I know him well and he told me that he is more informed now in 2007 than at any time in US history. Yet just like you I have only expressed an opinion about Joe. Just like you I cannot be sure about what Joe knows or does not know. Should Joe share his opinion about this topic you might find out that he simply could not afford this product?
February 24, 2007 9:47:41 PM

Really as to my original point, things that really matter are happening right now in the world..

You think that Vista is raping your wallet? Then don't buy it and shut up.

I didn't like Kings Quest 8 back in the day but I didn't start a crusade to end the horrible Sierra video game empire!!!

Get a life guys.
February 25, 2007 9:42:20 AM

Quote:
Really as to my original point, things that really matter are happening right now in the world..

You think that Vista is raping your wallet? Then don't buy it and shut up.

I didn't like Kings Quest 8 back in the day but I didn't start a crusade to end the horrible Sierra video game empire!!!

Get a life guys.


Very helpful...NOT.

My mother in-law (in her 80's) doesn't understand why her fairly new HP DeskJet does not work with her new Compaq Vista notebook (gift form her daughter... clueless also). She doesn’t want to hear drivers are not out yet or understands what a driver is...
February 25, 2007 1:40:09 PM

Quote:
Why does it matter how Vista sells?

It's a piece of software, it's not a rapist after your children. You don't
like it? Don't use it. Some people take a piece of software so seriously
around here.

It's almost as bad as the Mac vs. PC debates. Put this much effort into
something that actually matters people, not software.

I like Vista a lot, it didn't sell well, well crap I guess I better take it back. :( 


No, MS is a rapist after my wallet. Im not using it and would love to continue not using it. I would have loved to continued not using XP. Thats not the point.

The point is the consumer public not accepting a product which is incomplete, not what it promises and crap, and the manufacturer trying to place blame anywhere else but themselves.

If you went out and bought a car that boasted a 5 star safety rating because you wanted that to protect you children, then got in an accident where the damage sustained was much higher than it should have been, would you accept excuses from the manufacturer?

Why do people accept excuses from MS? MS touts its "content rich experiance", yet all it is are faster and more clever ways to make your system accesible to advertising, in the process creating greater security risks? Why is this acceptable?

MS had to 'cheat' to prevent Vista from being slower than XP, and only just barely suceeded. Why is that acceptable?

MS is forcing new standards on the hardware industry. Thats like a tire manufacturer telling an auto manufacturer "These are the tires we are going to provide, in order for the tire to funtion optimally, your car must wiegh no more than this, have a wieght distribution of that, a springrate thus etc."

That Vista is nothing more than XP SP3.x is of no concern. That its actually worse than XP is of no concern. That MS is placing blame rather than accepting it, as they usually do, is.

I dont want vista, just I didnt want XP, but like XP, when MS drops support for XP, I will have little choice if I wish to maintain compatability.


Well, MS agent just went to your home, put a gun behind your head and force you to buy your software. I guess that is what happen seeing how you talk about it...

By the way...
Quote:
MS is forcing new standards on the hardware industry. Thats like a tire manufacturer telling an auto manufacturer "These are the tires we are going to provide, in order for the tire to funtion optimally, your car must wiegh no more than this, have a wieght distribution of that, a springrate thus etc."


Actually, it is like this. there is load rating, as well as speed rating for tire. That means that you cannot put normal tires on sport car that goes fast.

You are NOT forced to use any pieces of software available. And there is Linux. And there is lots of apps that will do for casual users. It is not as easy to install and as polished as Windows, but when installed, it can be uses as easily as windows for normal personnal day to day operation. There is too some game written for Linux. Or just get a MAC. It will do too..

But if YOU decide to play game written for Windows, or use apps written for Windows, the this is YOUR own choice. It is not because the MAJORITY use it that you are FORCED to use it. Sure enough, games for windows are better and more are available but is it MS fault? Is it rather because more people get Windows, that create good market for developper in order to put out decent piece of software or better game? You think that game studio will have people working for them for free?

Quote:
My mother in-law (in her 80's) doesn't understand why her fairly new HP DeskJet does not work with her new Compaq Vista notebook (gift form her daughter... clueless also). She doesn’t want to hear drivers are not out yet or understands what a driver is..


This is because HP decided not to write drivers for it. You should rather blame HP, because my epson works with Vista. But HP being a private company, they can do whatever they want. Just like Microsoft.

I'm using Windows because I decided to. I use Open Office because I feel that I don't need the whole MS office suite. I will eventually get Vista, because of dual core support and memory management, as well as videocard accelerated desktop make my system faster and snappier. My printer does work, but not the VIVO on my ATI video card. ATI did not yet make the driver for it. Not MS fault to me.

While your individual mind can hate MS for their job, you simply forget people with limited knowledge of computer that enjoy computer because MS make it easy for them.

You want to change thing? just go out, hire people, make your own OS and sell it. If it is good enoughthen you may just become the next MS.
February 25, 2007 2:19:29 PM

Quote:
Why does it matter how Vista sells?

It's a piece of software, it's not a rapist after your children. You don't
like it? Don't use it. Some people take a piece of software so seriously
around here.

It's almost as bad as the Mac vs. PC debates. Put this much effort into
something that actually matters people, not software.

I like Vista a lot, it didn't sell well, well crap I guess I better take it back. :( 


No, MS is a rapist after my wallet. Im not using it and would love to continue not using it. I would have loved to continued not using XP. Thats not the point.

The point is the consumer public not accepting a product which is incomplete, not what it promises and crap, and the manufacturer trying to place blame anywhere else but themselves.

If you went out and bought a car that boasted a 5 star safety rating because you wanted that to protect you children, then got in an accident where the damage sustained was much higher than it should have been, would you accept excuses from the manufacturer?

Why do people accept excuses from MS? MS touts its "content rich experiance", yet all it is are faster and more clever ways to make your system accesible to advertising, in the process creating greater security risks? Why is this acceptable?

MS had to 'cheat' to prevent Vista from being slower than XP, and only just barely suceeded. Why is that acceptable?

MS is forcing new standards on the hardware industry. Thats like a tire manufacturer telling an auto manufacturer "These are the tires we are going to provide, in order for the tire to funtion optimally, your car must wiegh no more than this, have a wieght distribution of that, a springrate thus etc."

That Vista is nothing more than XP SP3.x is of no concern. That its actually worse than XP is of no concern. That MS is placing blame rather than accepting it, as they usually do, is.

I dont want vista, just I didnt want XP, but like XP, when MS drops support for XP, I will have little choice if I wish to maintain compatability.


Well, MS agent just went to your home, put a gun behind your head and force you to buy your software. I guess that is what happen seeing how you talk about it...

By the way...
Quote:
MS is forcing new standards on the hardware industry. Thats like a tire manufacturer telling an auto manufacturer "These are the tires we are going to provide, in order for the tire to funtion optimally, your car must wiegh no more than this, have a wieght distribution of that, a springrate thus etc."


Actually, it is like this. there is load rating, as well as speed rating for tire. That means that you cannot put normal tires on sport car that goes fast.

You are NOT forced to use any pieces of software available. And there is Linux. And there is lots of apps that will do for casual users. It is not as easy to install and as polished as Windows, but when installed, it can be uses as easily as windows for normal personnal day to day operation. There is too some game written for Linux. Or just get a MAC. It will do too..

But if YOU decide to play game written for Windows, or use apps written for Windows, the this is YOUR own choice. It is not because the MAJORITY use it that you are FORCED to use it. Sure enough, games for windows are better and more are available but is it MS fault? Is it rather because more people get Windows, that create good market for developper in order to put out decent piece of software or better game? You think that game studio will have people working for them for free?

Quote:
My mother in-law (in her 80's) doesn't understand why her fairly new HP DeskJet does not work with her new Compaq Vista notebook (gift form her daughter... clueless also). She doesn’t want to hear drivers are not out yet or understands what a driver is..


This is because HP decided not to write drivers for it. You should rather blame HP, because my epson works with Vista. But HP being a private company, they can do whatever they want. Just like Microsoft.

I'm using Windows because I decided to. I use Open Office because I feel that I don't need the whole MS office suite. I will eventually get Vista, because of dual core support and memory management, as well as videocard accelerated desktop make my system faster and snappier. My printer does work, but not the VIVO on my ATI video card. ATI did not yet make the driver for it. Not MS fault to me.

While your individual mind can hate MS for their job, you simply forget people with limited knowledge of computer that enjoy computer because MS make it easy for them.

You want to change thing? just go out, hire people, make your own OS and sell it. If it is good enoughthen you may just become the next MS.For what it is worth...MS is a MONOPOLY and because that is the fact at hand consumers choices are limited in the PC market. They can choose between the black Dell Vista system or the Gateway Vista system. More of the same when it comes to standards. Engineers and officials agree on standards that will be used on electronic goods. MS does several things that damage those standards. The following is quoted from a site that I visit now and again and says it better than I ever could.
Quote:
Standards as a means of sabotage

Then there are the really nasty deviations from global standards that Microsoft has deliberately introduced to sabotage interoperability and freedom of choice. Take HTML and Java for example. The Frontpage web editor, the IIS webserver and the various backend E-commerce products all generate proprietary extensions to HTML and scripting languages that only Internet Explorer on Windows will handle correctly, and renders all other web browsers and platforms unusable. The same goes for Java support: Microsoft Java does not follow the Java specifications. Again this means that applets in this particular dialect can only be executed by Microsoft's own Java engine on Windows. Yet Microsoft used the Java label for products that were incompatible with the Java standard. This caused Sun to file suit. Microsoft then dropped the global Java standard entirely and now only supports their own Java dialect. The net result of this whole procedure is that Microsoft web server products and development tools generate code that needs Windows, Internet Explorer and the Microsoft Java engine at the user end in order to work properly.

So the use of a simple consumer-level HTML editor like Frontpage can be the start of complete vendor-dependence. Frontpage is mainly intended for consumer use, and at the professional end of the scale we have IIS, ASP, scripting and other dynamic technologies, and the backend and development tools to create them. The World Wide Web becomes flooded with non-compliant HTML and JavaScript code that generates error messages, or that works incorrectly or not at all, with Netscape Navigator or other non-Microsoft browsers. Only with Internet Explorer on Windows these websites can be displayed correctly. Recent versions of Frontpage, IIS and the assorted E-commerce solutions increasingly use this proprietary scripting code for menus and navigation. This makes correct support of these dialects (read: the use of IE on Windows) essential to the usability of a website.

And this is not a transient problem, because competing browser manufacturers can never keep up. Shortly after Microsoft releases an updated version of Frontpage, IIS or other backend or development tools, older browsers will begin to show more and more error messages, and users will be urged to upgrade to the latest version of Internet Explorer. Some Microsoft web server products even use Active-X. That means that if you access a website that uses Active-X (another Microsoft 'standard'), the server sends commands to your browser which then makes system calls directly into your Windows operating system code. These websites can only be fully and correctly accessed and displayed by clients running MS-Windows. Non-Wintel systems (e.g. workstations running Unix) are excluded from those web-based services.

Also, in 2003 Microsoft participated in the Web Services workgroup of the W3C (the World Wide Web Consortium, a committee that maintains and guards the global web standards that we all use) with hopes of getting some Microsoft proprietary technology ratified as a global standard. Since the W3C was unwilling to do this (read: to promote technology to be used on a royalty basis) the Microsoft representatives picked up their marbles and left, stating that the purposes of the W3C did not match those of Microsoft. Shortly thereafter Microsoft said that no major new versions of Internet Explorer as a separate product are to be expected,, and announced that future major releases of IE will be an integrated part of future (post-XP) Windows versions. Given the dependencies they've created, this means that in order to access information on a global network, we'll need to buy the latest version of Microsoft Windows.
February 25, 2007 11:48:54 PM

Quote:
My mother in-law (in her 80's) doesn't understand why her fairly new HP DeskJet does not work with her new Compaq Vista notebook (gift form her daughter... clueless also). She doesn’t want to hear drivers are not out yet or understands what a driver is..



Quote:
This is because HP decided not to write drivers for it. You should rather blame HP, because my epson works with Vista. But HP being a private company, they can do whatever they want. Just like Microsoft.


Figures that Compaq would sell a Vista notebook that doesn't support a HP printer out of the box; One would think M$ would be concerned about these kinda issues.
February 26, 2007 2:24:51 PM

How many printers and scanners suddenly became broken when XP was released? I know it's not an excuse... but still... you have to expect that older hardware will not always work with newer hardware / OSes.

I'll have to check to see if my DeskJet 710C works with Vista... I haven't had a chance to yet. If it does, wouldn't that be a kick in the arse?
February 26, 2007 3:22:44 PM

Thanks for the link.
I was at HP site last time I was at her house; believe it was a Deskjet 5150...

HP says:
Quote:
Currently, there is no Windows Vista driver available for your HP product. Therefore your product will not work with Windows Vista at this time.
HP is currently working to make the HP driver solution for your product available as soon as possible.


I'm confident a driver or solution will be availabe soon. I agree, can't expect everything to work. She seems pleased with Vista likes the Aero.
February 27, 2007 5:57:48 AM

My printer is at least 6 years old... you wouldn't think it would work with Vista. I suppose that MS has been providing drivers for it since XP's release, so they decided to keep it up with Vista.

I do agree, though... it is a royal PITA when vendors aren't timely when it comes to providing new drivers for a new OS. After Logitech dragged their feet with XP x64, I didn't expect their new Vista x64 drivers to be done as quickly as they were. Some vendors do have a way of surprising you sometimes.
February 27, 2007 12:00:41 PM

If you take a look at some Vista X64 source code, and also at XP X64 source code, you'll find they are remarkably similar. My guess is that they just adapted the XP code.
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