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Upgrade for a 939 system

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May 9, 2007 4:38:03 AM

Ok i don't want to spring for a whole new system at the moment, i have a ecs kn1 extreme mobo with an athlon 64 3200+. i also have an x800xl video card but i want to wait until ati releases there new gpu's to see what to do. i also am running 2x512mb corsaid pc3200 ram so a gig total.

i want to go dual core and get a slightly faster cpu. its the first thing on the list especially seeing as how amd has abandoned a great socket that seemed to have so much life left, and stopped making 939 cpu's. i am leaning towards the X2 3800+ from newegg, mainly because i have heard they are great overclockers. so i thought i could get a little bit more bang for my buck. would this do for now? i will probably do one more gpu update on this computer, but i am not extreme, i always buy the best mid range card i can get for the money. i'm hoping that ati will have a better midrange with there new cards than the recently released ones from nvidia.

i would upgrade to am2 but some people think am2 sockets going to be short lived. but besides that the fact that i would have to buy a new mobo, cpu and ram is more than i want to commit to.

also i am not super informed how alot of these things work with dual core and games that aren't utilized to use it. so will a X2 3800+ be as fast or faster for gaming as my single core 3200+?

thanks for your guy's input.

More about : upgrade 939 system

a c 480 à CPUs
May 9, 2007 5:00:04 AM

The X2 3800+ should suffice especially if you overclock it. Most games are more GPU limited therefore a mid range card will not be able to play all the latest games at high settings. But you probably already know that.

The X800XL is still a pretty decent card. I believe the 7600GT is overall just a bit faster. I think it also trades blows with the X1650XT, but the ultimately the X800XL is still the faster card.

If you are going to upgrade your GPU then you should look at the Radeon X19xx series and the GeForce 79xx series. Anything below those series is not worth the increment increase in performance, or decreased performance for the X1650XT.
a c 480 à CPUs
May 9, 2007 5:04:59 AM

Quote:


also i am not super informed how alot of these things work with dual core and games that aren't utilized to use it. so will a X2 3800+ be as fast or faster for gaming as my single core 3200+?



It depends on if the game is programmed to take advantage of multi-threading and how efficient the coding is. For example, Doom 3 and Quake 4 will see about a 30% - 40% increase in performance when switching from a single to dual core of the same clockspeed. On the other hand Oblivion only sees at most a 10% increase.

For games that are not multi-threaded, you will not see much of an increase if the single and dual core CPU are of the same clockspeed.
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May 9, 2007 5:05:56 AM

the only reason i want to upgrade my gpu is because the x800 series cards didn't even support shader model 3, they only supported sm2. and now the newer cards from nvidia have sm4 i believe. besides that i have really loved my gpu and it runs almost every game i have thrown at it at a playable rate. just haven't gotten to turn hdr because of the lack of sm3.
May 9, 2007 5:26:07 AM

Get you a dualcore more ram and a newer gpu and you will be set.
a c 480 à CPUs
May 9, 2007 5:26:47 AM

Well, I don't know what card you intend to buy. If it is the 7600GT then you need to ask yourself if spending $100 - $120 is worth an approximate 10% increase in performance and SM3.

Like I stated before, it's best to upgrade to the X19xx or 79xx series. You know, bang for the buck.
May 9, 2007 5:31:08 AM

well thats why i thought i would wait to see what kind of midrange cards ati comes out with in the next month or so. you can already get an nvidia 8600gt for $130 on newegg. which is supposed to be close to a 7600 i think but have support for things like the new sm. but i wasn't overly impressed by the midrange nvidia's myself, thats why i thought i would wait a couple months.

i think newegg has a saphire x1950 gt for around $150 for a 512mb version. might go with something like that if ati doesn't impress.

so you all think the cpu would be ok? no slowdowns with games that don't utilize dual core cpu's or any other problems that could pop up?
May 9, 2007 5:31:23 AM

I agree the 76gt isnt worth the extra money over an x800xl.
not even for sm3.0.
May 9, 2007 5:52:01 AM

Quote:
well thats why i thought i would wait to see what kind of midrange cards ati comes out with in the next month or so. you can already get an nvidia 8600gt for $130 on newegg. which is supposed to be close to a 7600 i think but have support for things like the new sm. but i wasn't overly impressed by the midrange nvidia's myself, thats why i thought i would wait a couple months.

i think newegg has a saphire x1950 gt for around $150 for a 512mb version. might go with something like that if ati doesn't impress.

so you all think the cpu would be ok? no slowdowns with games that don't utilize dual core cpu's or any other problems that could pop up?

I'm in a similar boat as you. I've been running a 939 system for almost 2 1/2 years and I'm itching to upgrade but can't bring myself to build a new machine yet. I started upgrading with RAM (now 2gb) and a 7900gs. I've just ordered an x2 3800+, which, while it's a step down per-core from my 4000+, I expect will perform better overall simply because I always have more than one thing running at a time. With prices being what they are, I'd say the upgrade from 3200+ to x2 3800+ is a no-brainer.
May 9, 2007 6:13:21 AM

for ~$125 right now you can get an X1900GT or for ~$135 you can get an X1950GT both of which I hear overclock well. Those both will give you a good FPS boost in all games, support SM3 and are just the best for the price. Go with 3800 X2, but it won't really outperform your 3200+ in games until it's overclocked because it comes at the same speed and most games don't support dual core yet. If you want to save money just upgrade the video card first and OC your 3200+, they also OC pretty well.
May 9, 2007 6:32:13 AM

AMD screwed socket 939 users by not providing a decent upgrade chip. The 3800+ x2 939 is crap. Where are the 6000+ 939 chips? If you upgrade to AM2, you are going to get screwed again, because the upcoming AM2 chips will need a motherboard that has different voltage settings. So I would stay away from AMD untill they smarten up.

As an alternative, I of course recommend Core 2 Duo for a CPU, but this motherboard below will make your decision to switch to Intel much easier.
Here it is:

ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

This board can use both DDR or DDR2 memory, so you do not have to chuck the old memory. It does AGP and PCIe for maximum flexability. This board can use from a $30 celeron to the latest quad core CPU's, so you got lots of choices. It can even do a modest overclock, though it is by no means an extreme overclocking motherboard. Damn good for $60, with ample upgrade potential! I got one, and I love it! :) 

As for the CPU's, you can get a e4300 as low as $114.50, though I recommend the $168.00 E6320 because of the plentiful 4 meg cache. The 4 meg cache is really nice when you have slower memory in the system, though in reality, DDR400 is only a little slower than DDR2.

Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 $114.50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Intel Core 2 Duo E6320 $168.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

So for about $175, the solution I am suggesting will ass kick anything AMD has right now, save the 6000+. And that is with the worst Core2Duo. The E6320 will clean the clock off anything AMD, and there are still better Core 2 Duo chips to choose from! As a bonus, you get to continue to use your perfectly good memory, and you have sweet upgrade potential. So why would you stick with AMD considering the horrid solutions they are offering right now?
May 9, 2007 6:54:01 AM

Quote:
AMD screwed socket 939 users by not providing a decent upgrade chip. The 3800+ x2 939 is crap. Where are the 6000+ 939 chips? If you upgrade to AM2, you are going to get screwed again, because the upcoming AM2 chips will need a motherboard that has different voltage settings. So I would stay away from AMD untill they smarten up.

As an alternative, I of course recommend Core 2 Duo for a CPU, but this motherboard below will make your decision to switch to Intel much easier.
Here it is:

ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA $59.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

This board can use both DDR or DDR2 memory, so you do not have to chuck the old memory. It does AGP and PCIe for maximum flexability. This board can use from a $30 celeron to the latest quad core CPU's, so you got lots of choices. It can even do a modest overclock, though it is by no means an extreme overclocking motherboard. Damn good for $60, with ample upgrade potential! I got one, and I love it! :) 

As for the CPU's, you can get a e4300 as low as $114.50, though I recommend the $168.00 E6320 because of the plentiful 4 meg cache. The 4 meg cache is really nice when you have slower memory in the system, though in reality, DDR400 is only a little slower than DDR2.

Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 $114.50
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Intel Core 2 Duo E6320 $168.00
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

So for about $175, the solution I am suggesting will ass kick anything AMD has right now, save the 6000+. And that is with the worst Core2Duo. The E6320 will clean the clock off anything AMD, and there are still better Core 2 Duo chips to choose from! As a bonus, you get to continue to use your perfectly good memory, and you have sweet upgrade potential. So why would you stick with AMD considering the horrid solutions they are offering right now?

intel has screwed the intel users much more since lga 775 was released, try and run a core 2 duo in a board from when 939 came out and tell me what happends? oh wait it wont run it, there have been so many different chips for 775 its not funny amd support the socekt very well by letting you run dual core chips in the early 939 boards unlike intel which you had to buy a new board with the same socket just to run a dual core
May 9, 2007 7:02:36 AM

You are in the same position as what I was... I've got all the bells and whistles in my current pc, just the cpu was getting a bit tardy, had a huge issue getting hold of a cpu, and settled for an opty 175... I think while you're at it, get the best 939 cpu you can afford at the moment, the rest of the kit will still be able to handle for a while, and you could just replace the gfx at a later stage and maybe whack some extra ram in your pc...

My 2c :) 
May 9, 2007 7:26:26 AM

Don't overlook the opterons....
a b à CPUs
May 9, 2007 7:36:57 AM

Quote:
ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA


One problem I have about that board is the speed of the x16 PCI-E slot. I've seen a board on Asus with the same chipset and specs and suddenly I found out that the x16 PCI-E slot actually only ran at x4. Now this is very important as there are articles that point out that x16 does have a performance boost over lower pci-e speeds.

Also I do think that the 3800 x2 is not a piece of crap. It is a 'viable,' 'cheap' and quick way to get a bit of a performance boost and dual-core given the op's situation. What you are suggesting is that the OP nearly buy a new set-up. The 3800 x2 I believe would be an adequate hold-off processor, unless of course if you need a ton of speed.
May 9, 2007 2:03:31 PM

I'm basically in the same position as the op.

I have a s939 3500+ at the moment, and have been looking to upgrade the proc. The problem is, I can OC my current cpu only to 2.31Ghz from the bios (because Gigabyte, as a company, should be destroyed).

I've been looking at the x2 3800+, but $80 for a slower proc just doesn't sit right with me somehow. Yea, there's another core, but it would still be a 200mhz (likely) decrease in speed. The other option is the x2 4200 for $125, but that's for the same speed proc I have now. Doesn't really seem worth it.

Though I'd love to upgrade, I'll probably just impulsively buy a C2d system one of these days and turn my old rig into an HTPC.

Though it sucks to have to replace the mobo and ram to upgrade the CPU, it almost seems stupid to buy Socket 939 for $80/125 and get worse or the same performance when a 4300 system (P965 Platinum = 120, 2x 1 gig of ram = appx. 100-110, and e4300 = 114.50) would cost 344.50 and with overclocking could offer much greater performance.

The only thing stopping me at the moment is the WAF. In reality, my rig performs fine. Its just the urge to upgrade.

I'd like to get some other opinions on this.

Does dual core (at the same or slower speeds) improve the computing experience, and if so, by how much? (I primarily play games, but also encode and do other things as well)

Would the real world benefits of upgrading to a C2D setup be worth it?


Maybe I should start my own thread on this
May 9, 2007 3:21:27 PM

I still love my socket 939 X2 3800+ that I built last year. This has been my last build becasue I'm getting maried later this year and I don't have the cash for a Core Duo system, so I'm making the old gal last as long as I can.
I've upgraded to 2 gigs of Ram from the original 1 gig, and i've changed out the video card a couple of times, now running a 7600 GT.
The heftiest game I run nowadays is Oblivion, with several mods and the Shivering Isles expansion (with the patch -- don't forget the patch or you'll be sorry!).
Even with the added ram and the more-than-decent video card, frame rates were not what I wanted with video settings maxed out. Turning down bloom and other features helped a lot.
But in all honesty, I'm more about game play than pretty pictures. So I mostly play at medium settings and with this setup there's never any stutter, lag or artifacts on the screen at all.
Some games coming out later this year or early next year might be too much for this kind of system, we'll see.
My next game purchase will be Bethesda's Fallout 3 -- which is something I've been wanting to play for many years. Since it's based on the Oblivion engine I'm hoping the hardware requirements will be similar and I'll be able to wander the post nuclear holocaust of the Eastern United States as easily as I was able to explore Tamriel.
May 9, 2007 3:25:21 PM

see from my perspective the cpu's are faster than most need right now. you might slightly bottlekneck your gpu if you have a state of the art one, but if you use anything from an 8800gts or under it seems from what i have heard that you don't lose very much. i don't see the point though. amd will be moving to the am3 socket i belive in the pretty near future, memory will be moving to dd3, and a new faster version of pci express will be coming out that can handle more power in the slot so that you won't possibly have to use extra power connectors for a while with the video cards.

i don't think much of this is happening this year, but it is happening around quarter 1 next year i believe, though i could be wrong. so i don't want to dish out a bunch of money on a system that could be outdated in less than a year, just doesn't make that much sense to me.
May 9, 2007 3:32:44 PM

My experience was upgrading from a 3000+ to the X2 3800+. So that was a 200 mhz bump UP in speed in addition to the second core.
Short answer to your question. You'll probably be disappointed in moving to a slower dual core if gaming is your main intererest.
The 3800+ overclocks reasonably well though. I had mine at 2.4 ghz just fine on an MSI board, but that forced me to run he Zalman cooler at a higher speed, which made a little more noise (still pretty quiet, but louder than at stock speeds). So I put mine back at stock and just emphasized the video card and ram.
The second core on my system hardly gets any use because I don't do much encoding or file sharing. However, it definitely makes for a more robust system. I've got the antivirus, two adware and spyware checkers and Norton GoBack running in the background.
I also use an internet chatting feature often. I can run Skype and Yahoo IM at the same time and pull up my Firefox browser and there's no hang ups or lag or anything like there was (slightly) with the single core.
So, yeah, the dual core makes the system more responsive -- but it won't make your games run faster.
May 9, 2007 3:50:32 PM

You really can't find the higher clocked 939 cpus anymore, just over priced on ebay. When i finally had the $$ for a major upgrade, the 4800 dried up. Not enough cash for an FX60, i grabbed one of the last 4600s on the Egg. The FX60 sold out everywhere after that. Now the 4400 is a hard find. All thats left are 3800 Toledos.
Opterons are still out there!!
You can find a 2.4ghz opty for $260 or so i think, almost the same as the 4800.
a b à CPUs
May 9, 2007 4:04:59 PM

Hmm, now I see your dilemma. Well you could go on impulse for a 4300, but at least invest in a good board. The board that the other guy suggested simply has too many bottlenecks. Core 2's are fast procs, but sitting them in a crappy board would handicap them a bit.

I would recommend other better boards with better chipsets. But I couldn't recommend a board as it is primarily related to your needs, ata interface or more sata? 2 or 4 ram slots? x1pci-e or just pci slots? it is up to you.
May 9, 2007 4:07:05 PM

thing is i can run almost every game i want right now with my single core 64 bit 3200+ cpu. so if a X2 3800+ is the same at stock with single core stuff then i would be fairly happy, but then if you overclock it which i heard is fairly easy for the X2 3800+ then it would be faster.

plus alot of the games are starting to utilize dual core, which would make it way faster for those games, in fact i think even the source engine with HL2 is getting updated when HL2 ep2 comes out. one of the big things is the source engine will utilize the power of dual core cpu's.

and seeing as how you can barely buy single core cpu's anymore i would think that most new games coming out will at least utilize them a little to make it slightly faster on a dual core over a single core. but i guess you never know. but it seems thats the only way they are going to be able to push things for more speed is if they do indeed utilize more than a single core for gaming.
a c 143 à CPUs
May 9, 2007 5:01:59 PM

I went from a 3200+ to a X2 3800+ on my s939. There was no increase in the max speed of any game, but the stutter and lag caused by background processes (like anti-virus update downloads) ceased entirely. I have no regrets.
That extremely flexible (its only good point) ASRock mobo someone suggested uses a VIA chipset, so expect performance to suck like a Hoover.

The upgrade itch is working on me too, but I just can't justify it yet. When I do, it will be a C2D though, and probably an 8800GTS when they come down a little more.
May 9, 2007 5:43:22 PM

Quote:
ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA


One problem I have about that board is the speed of the x16 PCI-E slot. I've seen a board on Asus with the same chipset and specs and suddenly I found out that the x16 PCI-E slot actually only ran at x4. Now this is very important as there are articles that point out that x16 does have a performance boost over lower pci-e speeds.

Also I do think that the 3800 x2 is not a piece of crap. It is a 'viable,' 'cheap' and quick way to get a bit of a performance boost and dual-core given the op's situation. What you are suggesting is that the OP nearly buy a new set-up. The 3800 x2 I believe would be an adequate hold-off processor, unless of course if you need a ton of speed.

You look at the benchmarks you might loose 1 or 2 fps with PCIe 4x to 8x. Not exactly a painful bottleneck. As for the 3800+ being crap, I only say it from a price performance comparison.
May 9, 2007 5:53:55 PM

Quote:
Hmm, now I see your dilemma. Well you could go on impulse for a 4300, but at least invest in a good board. The board that the other guy suggested simply has too many bottlenecks. Core 2's are fast procs, but sitting them in a crappy board would handicap them a bit.

I would recommend other better boards with better chipsets. But I couldn't recommend a board as it is primarily related to your needs, ata interface or more sata? 2 or 4 ram slots? x1pci-e or just pci slots? it is up to you.


What bottlenecks? All I had to do to beat all other boards with the ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA on sisoft sandra was to add 2 WD raptors set up for RAID 0, and that was with ddr400 memory! So it is not exactly a hobbled board! IMHO, unless you are into extreme overclocking, the other boards are overpriced junk.
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2007 12:33:15 AM

Quote:
Hmm, now I see your dilemma. Well you could go on impulse for a 4300, but at least invest in a good board. The board that the other guy suggested simply has too many bottlenecks. Core 2's are fast procs, but sitting them in a crappy board would handicap them a bit.

I would recommend other better boards with better chipsets. But I couldn't recommend a board as it is primarily related to your needs, ata interface or more sata? 2 or 4 ram slots? x1pci-e or just pci slots? it is up to you.


What bottlenecks? All I had to do to beat all other boards with the ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA on sisoft sandra was to add 2 WD raptors set up for RAID 0, and that was with ddr400 memory! So it is not exactly a hobbled board! IMHO, unless you are into extreme overclocking, the other boards are overpriced junk.


I am still highly doubtful of that board. But I cannot disagree that that board is a good value. I am applying though the ideaology "If you're going to buy something new, at least buy a good one."

Sisoft Sandra for me isn't a good enough point as it is synthetic and only shows amount of bandwidth you ram has. It doesn't really mean instant high performance.

I am just not astonished with the PT880, plus I doubt that the PCI-E slot is actually runs at x16. Adding the Raptors is a different matter, as I bet that the scores on sandra were set-up with desktop hdisks. I just have my doubts about the board.
May 10, 2007 3:46:10 AM

also as other components are finally starting to get announced for the slower bandwidth pci-e slots its a negative that the motherboard you listed doesn't support anything but pic, agp, and the single pci-e gpu slot. also only having two slots for each different type of ram makes it appear it wouldn't be that great to build a new pc upon.

i think i will upgrade to the dual core 3800+ sometime on my 939 board and just oc it. i might wait a little while and see if i can snag a deal on a faster one somewhere but i don't want to wait to long and not be able to find any 939 dual core cpu's.

at this point i just want to find the best 939 dual core cpu i can get for the cheapest price. there is no way i would spend over $150, and thats even pushing it. i would rather spend less and save the money for a full new build later.
May 10, 2007 4:43:17 AM

It depends what you want to do with your system, if it justifies an upgrade to a dual core processor.

Every time I visit my parents I bring my PC to play games with my little brother. His 939-based system is exactly the same as mine except for the CPU (we both have 2GB RAM, 8800GTS 320's and k8N-SLI mobo's), my processor is an x2 4200, while his is an A64 3500+.

We both play at 1600x1200. Most games are approx. 5-10 fps difference between our systems. There is very little difference at all. The only game which is about 20 frames different is Supreme Commander, but the raw gfx power can easily account for that. Running background tasks like my antivirus doesn't kill performance on mine nearly as much as on his though.

Sure, AMD screwed us 939 users, but there is still alot of power to be had, and as someone has pointed out earlier, if you really really need a dual core, go an Opty (170's OC the best, so I hear 8) )
May 10, 2007 4:48:05 AM

its not that its out of my price range its just that i don't want to spend to much money on something that won't be used for a super long time. i would rather save the money to get something better later. i don't want to do anything that overdoes it. i know certain cpu's aren't as great as the core 2 duo's but most of the gaming i do is on the source engine, guild wars, and civ IV. i also go back and play freelancer sometimes.

the only time i need power is if i want to try a new game, but that doesn't happen that often. the only game i wanted to try recently was the vegas tom clancy game, but it requires a sm3 card so i haven't been able to play it. but most games lately seem more dependent on gpu's rather than cpu's. and you can get decent bang for your buck lately for gpu's so i would rather spend money there, plus a gpu can go into the new pc for a while eventually, while the old socket 939 mobo, cpu, and ram wouldn't. might use it as a server or something when i do a new build who knows.
May 10, 2007 4:59:04 AM

I would probably go for a sizeable GPU upgrade. TBH you would get more kick out of your system if you get your hands on an X1950PRO or a 7900GS for a bit cheaper, anything less wouldnt be worth it. Both should last for a while and let you play any game out there. Don't get me wrong, the X800XL is a pretty decent card, but if you want to comfortably play today's games, I would plop a new gfx card in there. I'm not sure how much RAM you mentioned was in your system, but 2GB should be ample. Some RAM and video card uograde shouldn't set you back too much, for when the big system overhaul happens (I'm waiting for these "phenoms" from AMD to come out, so I have maximum options).

P.S- Freelancer is a great game, I wish Digital Anvil didn't dissolve so we could have seen a sequel
a b à CPUs
May 10, 2007 1:55:46 PM

Hmmm. You actually only really need to go dual-core if you do at least: video encoding, super multitasking (archiving with WinRAR while playing around photoshop, or 2 archive processes). That's basically it.

If you really need an FPS boost a vid card would be your better and best solution. Anyway a better CPU would merit probably around 10fps more, whilst a better GPU might earn you 20+. With a better CPU though, you only shave off a few seconds in video encoding and possibly image editing.
May 10, 2007 5:05:10 PM

Quote:
newegg has the X2 4800 Toledo for $225. A bit more than your budget tho I see.


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

These have been out of stock for months. New Egg took them off the site for some time, don't know why they decided to put it back on. $225 is a great deal for this CPU though. Its going for over $300 on ebay.
May 7, 2008 10:15:33 PM

Opteron 185 @ 220MHz (x5HT) x 13 = 2.86GHz

2G of 2-2-3-6 DDR

8800GTS (G92)

PATA HDD

All on the lovely and aging s939 (nForce4 SLI...but I will not use SLI ever)

I can run any title except Crysis at 1600x1200 by whatever FSAA and other filtering settings I choose and get framerates however I wish. s939 can hang with the best of them still.

My point? Find an Opteron 185 or 180!
May 7, 2008 10:27:47 PM

Look at the dates you nitwit, this thread is a year old!
June 22, 2008 8:41:40 AM

B-Unit said:
Look at the dates you nitwit, this thread is a year old!


People do searches and read threads days weeks months and even years after they are written. It's called "lore".

Don't you know this? You do now.
!