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No Apple forum section and I'll leave this negative anti Apple site.

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March 6, 2008 11:39:26 PM

First of all I would like to appoligize for my bad English.

There is nowhere where this thread really belongs or gets enough attention so I'll just post it here. Srry for that. Let's see how long it last hehe as it's not really in favour of the anti Apple people.
Many people (me included) love this site for what it brings when it comes to hardware benchmarks and certain other reviews.
This opinion has changed for me in the past year as Tomshardware is constantly bashing Apple all the way while I don't see any reason why. There are postive things as well?
Like Vista is great all the way? Don't make me laugh, ever asked yourself why you never hear anything about this anymore? I wonder why, $$$? If this money story is true than how reliable are reviews on this site afterall if money is involved?
Don't start please, I don't even know for sure if this is the case but I just find the way Tomshardware is posting too much anti Apple news bad (non professional) enough allready. They don't provide an oppertunity for people who own MACS to discuss this on their Forum as they are the ones who can provide the real facts am I wrong? In my eyes this is so lame and weak. There are no words for it.
I don't own an Apple machine but still I know people who do. I've been learning to know how Apple machines work and they really are far from negative. Sure their are negative points too. But you never hear the positive side of the story on this site.
On of those is that you won't have any problems with virusses, spyware, trojans and stuff like that cause everything installed on the OS needs a password authorisation. Only when you install bad warez appz etc but that's your own mistake. Personally I think this is a great security feature that you don't hear people from Tomshardware talk about.
I really don't know why this site is so negative all the way for Apple people. Am I now an Apple fanboy too for talking like this?
I own XP and I'm having a great time with this OS so I don't understand why I should be a fanboy for the people who assume I am?

What I really want on this site is a MAC OSX forum...if it does not come here Tomshardware should not even start posting negative stuff about MAC OSX while they own a Linux forum section that is family of MAC OSX.

For the people who want to start telling that MAC OSX doesn't support gaming well guess what...this is about to change. In the past Apple told fake stories making false promises that I really think were lame but near future games like for example games running on the new ID Software (the lead founder of new technoligy in games like for example lightning) ID tech 5 engine's game called Rage. Be fair...does this game look ugly to you when you visit preview sites? It's not having lag problems or what so ever.

ps: If this anti Apple stuff is proceeding in this negative way not even allowing MAC owners to discuss the problems and finding solutions for it I'm leaving this site which was my n1 site for over 8 years behind me and move over to Anandtech.com.
March 7, 2008 8:25:40 AM

May I suggest that this post would have been best posted in the site feedback section. Mac OS and Linux are not 'family of MAC OSX' for a lot of reasons so I don't think tagging the MAC OS bit on the end of this section would be of any use. If you want a Mac OS section then ask the owners not us. I have no objection to an Apple section it's just that you are in the wrong place to ask for it. There are plenty of sites dedicated to the Mac where PC users face the same hostility.



March 7, 2008 2:52:47 PM

osx is actually build on bsd
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March 7, 2008 5:45:01 PM

HarveyW said:
osx is actually build on bsd


And BSD is not Linux. Apple have made a lot of modifications and whilst you can install a GNU toolkit on it and even run your own X server it is principally a commercial OS with closed source. By the same logic MS Windows TCP/IP questions should land down here as that is a BSD TCP/IP stack they built it on.

Point taken though as this section does include BSD related questions, however SyPher has been around long enough to know where to post his rant.

March 9, 2008 2:13:40 PM

Can somebody delete this thread? I'm done with the MAC part. It's useless anyways to talk about it.
March 9, 2008 10:20:46 PM

SyPheR said:
Can somebody delete this thread? I'm done with the MAC part. It's useless anyways to talk about it.


I don't think it's useless to talk about it. I just think you angle on this is a little off. I've been following most of the articles on THG with regards to the MAC systems, and most of their articles that have a negative view are generally negative for a reason. In the last 12 months, Apple has really been dealing some dirty deeds. Censorship on their official forums, faulty products, over priced products, bug filled OS launches (We've seen this with Windows Vista too, but Apple denies half of the issues raised).

I do agree that there should be a Mac section on these forums (Get's them outta the Linux section ;)  ) but diving in here and posting a rant in a section of the forums that already gets a low amount of traffic isn't going to help. Email a few of the moderators and request for a Mac section. I guess you could have done worse, like post in the CPU forums, where you would have been grilled, flipped, flamed and banned :lol: 
March 9, 2008 11:59:10 PM

lol, actually what you are trying to say is that it's a miracle I'm still here. See, there is a God. ;)  Even for the autistic people who discover their flaws a bit later at some times.
March 10, 2008 3:55:51 AM

As much as I hate apple, I agree, there should probably be some sort of Mac forum here so that the apple fanboys can go and do their thing over there. I suppose it wouldn't really be hurting anyone and it would make THG a bit more diverse as it would be more of a hardware site vs an x86/windows site (it would then have a PPC/x86/MacOS section). But yeah, that post is really in the wrong forum man. Personally, if i were sypher, and i didn't know who to contact, i'd put this topic in a forum with more traffic such as the CPU forum (no offense to the other linux guys here, but we are pretty much it as far as this forum is concerned).

-Zorak

P.S I guess even in the cpu forums, despite the veritable conflagration this topic would have sparked, it would have at least generated some attention.

P.P.S. Don't give your topic name in the form of an ultimatum; (no offense intended) do you really think anyone is going to care whether you stay or leave? If you were singlehandedly providing all the hosting for the THG forums, an ultimatum like that might spark some action by THG, but since you are not even sure where to put this request, you must not be so essential to THG's operation. However, if you ask in a friendly manner for a Mac forum (instead of posting an angry rant), you just might get what you wanted after all.

edited to add the P.P.S
March 10, 2008 10:34:15 AM

@Zorak - Nice points about the apple control side of things but I don't think this is anything that other companies are already doing. Vista capable anyone?

@SyPheR - Have you submitted that feature request yet or sent any PM's to the mods? As advised I don't think anybody is against the idea full stop but you may need to make a case for the powers that be.
March 11, 2008 8:07:49 AM

Audiovoodoo, I am not sure what comments about apple control you are referring to (since i didn't post anything about apple in my post); perhaps you speak of previous comments i've made about apple, or in the more likely case you are referring to knightrous's post?

Anyways, I suppose you do bring up a good point about the whole windows vista capable debacle. However, I must say that I think apple gets away with a lot of **** that MS is publicly castigated for and I am tired of the double standard. I think no company should be allowed to get away with anti-competitive practices (read: vendor lock-in tactics) and censorship, and I think it is appalling that we let apple get away with so much because the public believes what apple tells them to believe about apple. If we are going to hate MS for the bad things they do, then let us not turn a blind eye to other companies that employ the same tactics.

-Zorak
March 11, 2008 8:17:13 AM

Sorry Zorak that was my bad - it was actually knightrous that made the comment a couple of posts further up the thread.

You picked up exactly what I meant though and happily you see my point that really MS and Apple are both as bad as each other in many regards. That is not to say that there are not apple products out there I'd love to own.
April 7, 2008 3:52:55 AM

Tom's has always been billed as an "enthusiast" site. No company (except perhaps MS) is more anti-enthusiast than Apple. The day Apple lets you install MacOS on a brand new home-built computer is the day they should be included on an enthusiast website and forum.

Apple is much more closed than even MS. At least MS gives you more freedom to install Windows than Apple does to install MacOS. If MS wanted to sell you a computer with their OS preinstalled and you could only buy MS branded computers to run Windows... there would be a huge backlash. How Apple gets away with being as closed as they are I'll never know.
April 7, 2008 10:06:55 AM

I personally don't see the issue with Apples approach. It's one of the reasons they have so many positive user experinces, they take away the complexity of trying to get diverse components from a number of manufacturers working together. Granted for you and many other users this is restrictive, but for your average user, the sort that would by a pre configured Dell, HP box etc it saves them time and money. Most people just don't have the time or inclination to research, configure, update etc.

If you look at the mobile devices sector MS follows the same model as Apple, they just partner with OEM's that make and brand the devices as their own. You are still as locked in as ever. Apple have made some steps to being more open, Darwin for example allows you to run a lot of GNU tools. Is there really much of a difference between a new Vista laptop and a MacBook?

I'll not knock anybody for buying a Mac. They work, come with a good set of tools and for the non technical offer an easy, if slightly premium, solution to getting hooked up. At the end of the day you can still stick Linux on them if you want...
April 7, 2008 4:33:13 PM

Why not just shove *bsd down here, not just 'free'?
"CPU" section is not strictly x86 inclusive.
problem solved.
April 7, 2008 9:45:08 PM

Different slant on it but I can see the logic. I think the issue is that this section is very much slanted towards the open source, mind that is no reason we shouldn't all be open to new ideas and even a bit of commercial closed source software.

At the end of the day anything that brings more traffic to this section can only be a good thing. My only concern would be that Mac threads would attract very few answers as most folks are Linux heads around these parts. How many decent answers would a RISC question get in the CPU section?
April 8, 2008 4:25:50 PM

Zoron said:

Apple is much more closed than even MS. At least MS gives you more freedom to install Windows than Apple does to install MacOS. If MS wanted to sell you a computer with their OS preinstalled and you could only buy MS branded computers to run Windows... there would be a huge backlash. How Apple gets away with being as closed as they are I'll never know.


MS is just as closed as Apple is on some of their products. Case in point is the Xbox. It's a completely "closed" piece of hardware and software where MS is the ultimate gatekeeper. Last time I checked, the Xbox 360 is selling pretty decently. Granted, the Xbox is a console and not a computer, so people have different expectations, but I don't see too much backlash at the Xbox for being so closed. There are a few modders and people who want to turn the Xbox into a cheap computer or media extender that are upset, but they are a very small minority.

And about the forum. There could very well be a dedicated "Macintosh" section in the OS forum like there is for the various other *nixes as well as each version of Windows. It would not be too hard for the BestOfMedia guys to put that in there. I think it hasn't happened yet as Tom's Hardware is very much a DIY enthusiast site and specializes in PC gaming on destops. You cannot DIY an Apple computer unless you make a "Hackintosh" and nobody legit can condone that, lest Steve's lawyers tear them a new one. Also, the vast majority of Apples sold are notebooks or iMacs, which are not any more upgradeable than your average laptop. Tom's doesn't do much with laptops for this reason, so strike one. The only marginally modifiable Apple, the Mac Pro, has a very limited ability to be upgraded. This due to the fact that OS X drivers and/or firmware ╬╝code have to be present in devices for them to be recognized by OS X, so as a result few non-peripheral devices are OS X compatible. Tom's deals heavily with internal devices such as GPUs, so strike two against Apples. Strike three is the fact that Tom's is a big gaming site and only a few big-name games run on Apples. The same is true for the *nixes as well, but they run on more hardware than even Windows does. *nix users tend to be much more into DIY hardware than most, so they fit in much better with the crowd here than Apple users. Thus the *nix users have their section and Apple users don't.
April 8, 2008 6:16:17 PM

I was referring to the fact that Apple locks you into both hardware and software... where MS locks you in on software. The Xbox is a console... and does nothing different from any other console on the market... so that point is moot.

I wasn't attempting to argue that MS isn't restrictive... just that they are less so than Apple. While I see benefits to locking in both hardware and software (quality control is the biggest), I prefer to build my own computer. Apple just doesn't let me do that.

Tom's is (or at least is supposed to be) an enthusiast's website. The type of site where people like me come to hear about the latest video card, motherboard or CPU... and after we're done purchasing and assembling these various components, we can install Linux or Windows. We cannot install MacOS. That is the biggest knock against having an Apple section in this forum. I truly believe that if MacOS were an option on home-built PCs, Apple would take even more market share away from Windows... possibly more than Linux ever could

April 8, 2008 9:59:25 PM

Zoron said:
I truly believe that if MacOS were an option on home-built PCs...


MacOS used to be available for any computer that had a PowerPC processor. There used to be "Macintosh-compatible" computers made by the likes of DayStar and others that were not Apple-endorsed but still legally ran MacOS. These "clones" were thought to be one of the reasons that Apple was in the dumps in the late 1990s. it was one of Steve Jobs's first tasks when he reassumed the CEO spot in 1999 (I think it was '99- correct me if I am wrong) was to kill off third-party licensing of MacOS, killing the "clone" market. I think that was the right decision from a financial perspective as MacOS is pretty much the big attraction for buying Apple gear. The fact that not a whole lot of people buy x86 Macintoshes and _primarily_ run Windows of *nix with them but people DO make "Hackintoshes" out of non-Apple machines is a good indication of that. There is an old saying, "why buy the cow when you can have the milk for free?" Well, Apple's hardware is their cow they want to sell and MacOS is their milk and Apple knows it.

Quote:
...Apple would take even more market share away from Windows... possibly more than Linux ever could.


That is debatable and I would have to say that if it does become more popular, it would take quite a while to accomplish. I have a hunch that part of the reason that Apple has a decent track record for OS stability and relatively few low-level problems is not because their coders are that much better than everybody else's. It is because there are only a few possible hardware combinations and Apple writes the drivers. Throw OS X out into the wild and you have initially very crappy driver support- the kind of driver support that makes Vista 64-bit driver support on release day look wonderful. Apple will either have to write drivers for any system device that anybody wants to use or they would let third parties write drivers. The *nix folks largely do #1 and as a result, hardware support on new or very obscure hardware is typically lacking. It also takes thousands of people a lot of time to accomplish, something that a for-profit company would not really want to pay for. #2 is what MS does and I'm sure you know how great all third-party Windows drivers are *cough*Creative*cough* *cough*NVIDIA*cough* and that all older devices get supported on newer OSes *cough*HP*cough*. The end result would be that OS X would be nowhere as stable as it is on Apple hardware and many drivers would be missing, POing lots of people. They would have a mighty big hurdle to clear if they ever wanted to challenge MS for desktop dominance, which is why I think that they are content to have their little closed niche and call it a (profitable) day.
April 8, 2008 10:06:00 PM

[devil mode] So when are we going to get the OpenVMS / OS390 / AS400 sections to? [/devil mode]

Sorry.. I'm just in that sort of mood ;) 
April 8, 2008 10:11:35 PM

audiovoodoo said:
[devil mode] So when are we going to get the OpenVMS / OS390 / AS400 sections to? [/devil mode]

Sorry.. I'm just in that sort of mood ;) 


Now don't forget RiscOS either...
April 8, 2008 10:22:35 PM

Indeed, a darn fine OS. Maybe we should also have BeOS...
April 8, 2008 10:57:35 PM

Overclock your i270 to 400 CPW with watercooling!

"My only concern would be that Mac threads would attract very few answers as most folks are Linux heads around these parts. "

'that's a user problem'
April 9, 2008 12:02:07 AM

Pfft... OS's as sif you need them! My microprocessors run on hex. Fear my 20mhz of RISC processing powah :D 
April 9, 2008 9:45:44 AM

Hex is a mouthfull. I prefer to nibble at my bytes for a bit.
April 10, 2008 12:57:57 AM

Hah! You silly people and your bloated binary/assembly! I customize all my microcode to make it do what I want. Hooray for direct control over my ALUs! ;D

-Zorak
May 3, 2008 12:09:44 AM

Please people, I've allready asked if this stupid post could be deleted or whatever but people keep on watching and replying to it. WHa'ts the deal. It's just a stupid post from some autistic person that had a little problem with toms hardware being a prick towards MAC OSX probably just because they hate Steve as much as I do. Steve is a prick if you ask me. That does not take away that OSX is pretty swell though. Not 100% but still pretty much good as a platform.
So please stop reacting to this stupid post. I was just a bit depressed when I posted this. Being autistic is no fun. In fact it suck bigtime not to being able to find the right girl and in your yought being teased a lot etc. Life sucks.
May 3, 2008 9:53:32 AM

SyPheR - Forget autism, you ask a valid question about the site and it has provoked some discussion. Please do not feel in the slightest bit bad about it. There are other folks on here wondering the same thing so you are not alone. You are by no means a nasty troll compared to many that hang out on this site.

Yes, occasionally you do post some strange things and the emotion is clear but you should never be afraid to say what you feel. I'm sorry that you find your condition gets in the way at times but you are not alone. I've had serious mental health issues in my time and was unable to work for a couple of years - does that make me any less of a person? No.

Nowt wrong with being different...

** Flings chimp poop of respect at the unique yet troubled SyPheR **

May 3, 2008 10:07:59 AM

First thing is to accept that not everybody will like you, but there is always somebody out there that will. It just might take you a while to find them!

May 3, 2008 6:56:46 PM

@amdfangirl
I'd much rather just be a passive commentator than anything else. Forgive my over caution but I don't hang out with teenagers, unless I'm dating their mother. Technical discussions or the odd bit of banter is harmless and so long as your comments are valid will not result in chimp rage.

I did try to warn you about the dirty old and middle aged men on the forums when you tried to enter the other. Strangest is just strange but as far as I know mostly harmless. In all seriousness though you really should show a bit more caution in your communications. Just because you think people can't trace you doesn't mean that people can't. I actually have a couple of mates in Sydney who I'm quite sure could track you down if they really wanted to. There is no such thing as anonymity on the net nowadays.

@Strangest
I'm a dirty Manc not Zippy's girlfriends dirty fingered kid! [/Other topic]

** Flings ginger scot homing poop **
May 4, 2008 9:57:01 AM

@Strangest
I did say mostly... ;) 

May 6, 2008 2:17:42 AM

HAH! How far has this forum fallen that now we are discussing theories of love? ;)  Of course, I jest, nevertheless I think it is funny that the thread deviates so much from the rest of the forum, and even the current topic of the thread deviates from its intended topic. Perhaps it is only fitting that the discussion has wandered so far from its starting point, as it fits the spirit of the thread itself within our little Linux forum.

With regards to online association, I suppose a healthy dose of caution (read: paranoia) goes a long way to preserve one's safety. Also, not being offensive to others is generally a good idea although sometimes people will take offense and there is not much you can do to stop it.

Anyways, I wouldn't feel right if I didn't try to steer this conversation back in a vaguely technical direction so I will leave you with this parting thought to fuel further discussion: "Branch prediction is good." :D 


-Zorak
May 6, 2008 11:13:05 AM

Post count != knowledge.

It's just a sign of how many flame wars you've been part of.
May 7, 2008 12:43:54 AM

Well, I'm glad there is at least one girl out there in the whole wide world that understands the whole meaning of this crazy post. :p 
Maybe we should get married soon? ;)  I like your guitar as I make music myself.
Maybe we can make a little cover of a song from Neil Young. I'm sure I can sing better than him. :p  Still there is something innocent about his voice though. :p 

ps: Audiovoody you rock man. Guess we are on the same channel sometimes.
May 7, 2008 12:32:05 PM

Slightly firmer that RMS does.
May 7, 2008 4:39:25 PM

Poor showing... It was only the 3rd result on google and if you run Linux you really should check the history of the Free Software Movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman

Come to think of it, and bringing this back on topic, you should actually know some of this from Darwin ports on Apple.
May 7, 2008 7:38:02 PM

audiovoodoo, I don't know whether to laugh or be appalled at your earlier reference to RMS :(  I guess that _other_ thread is really beginning to spill out into the forum! ;D


-Zorak
May 8, 2008 7:49:54 AM

@Zorak - Awww.. he is kind of cudly don't you think?

@amdfangirl - As you had already made mention of Linus I thought you might have had some interest. I actually think it is important to read around a subject as this is where you start to put things together. I once aced a uni assignment on ISDN by showing how the band Future Sound of London had used the technology to allow them to play live gigs in a number of countries without leaving their studio. I used the same example to land a job working for a Telco some years later. Indirect learning and application of knowledge is something they love.

Stallman is as important to the whole software world as Gates and Jobs. Certainly if I taught a computer science class it would be core reading material. You seem to be quite a technical person with an aptitude for computers. If you ever want to work in the field or study it further I'd say the culture is as important as the nuts and bolts of the craft.

You should care about Gates / Jobs / Balmer / Linus / Stallman. You should be aware of past companies like NeXT and industry shapers like Xerox. [/Dad type rant]
May 8, 2008 10:38:14 AM

I never said you were dumb kid, you obviously know a fair bit. However there is just so much to the whole culture that I think you would enjoy reading up on. If nothing else it might slow your relentless post count :p 

If you take that attitude to Jobs, and it is one that I would share, then Stallman is all the more important to understand. The complete change of thinking that he introduced with the Free Software movement is what set the ground for people like Linus to get projects like Linux off the ground. Throw the GNU toolkit into the mix, LISP and all the other bits of geek culture the man has his hands in and you're in interesting teritory.

Xerox Parc are just such a fundimental part of the whole computing revolution that define the way we interact with systems. I'd strongly recommend them as a good subject for a paper. Also you should have a look at some of the work Dr Timothy Leary (the man credited with bringing LSD to the masses) wrote on HCI. He did some work with Apple that directly influenced the design of OS X.

May 9, 2008 6:06:09 AM

Well, I am certainly happy to hear that you guys share my opinion about mr. jobs, if not my opinion of apple in general. As much as i'd like to see a more heterogenous computing environment in the world, which would imply that apple's marketshare would have to grow, it is my sincere hope that people open their eyes and see apple for what it is. Unfortunately that isn't going to happen any time soon.

-zorak
May 9, 2008 10:19:19 AM

@amd - I had to post a reply on that thread. The poor bloke makes a very valid point though. Please think about the position you put people in when you say things like that. This isn't myspace...
May 9, 2008 2:45:24 PM

And Apple used the BSD licence to allow them to take community work and not give squat back to the people that did the hard work in the first place.
May 9, 2008 9:36:48 PM

The answer to both those questions is a resounding yes. And NEXTSTEP was based on the Mach microkernel and BSD. So therefore NeXT and later apple have been profiting from the work of others. This in itself isn't a bad thing since the idea behind open source doesn't prohibit making money. The thing that makes apple evil is not contributing much back. I have heard, however that they have made contributions to the open source community in the form of WebKit? I haven't heard a whole lot about that to be honest though.

Aside from whatever crimes apple has commited against the open source community, though, I am inclined to damn them for their monopolistic practices. I just HATE the double standard that they enjoy. I am no microsoft fan, but I think it is really unfair how apple gets away with a lot of the **** that microsoft is publicly crucified for. When apple does something monopolistic it is "for the sake of providing a good user experience by keeping everything well integrated" or some such nonsense, and when Microsoft does the same or similar things suddenly the whole world is up in arms! Granted, I still think the past actions MS has taken are wrong, but I think apple should be held to the same standard, regardless of whether or not they are "the little guy" in the computer world.

Anyways, i think i had better stay away from this thread now as I may develop a brain anneurism from all these negative thoughts ;) 

-Zorak
May 16, 2008 12:21:47 AM

Uhh aaaargh, amdfangirl....born in 1994? I appoligize and take my words back. :p 
Anyways, can we finally let this stupid post be? People keep comming back and comment in it. Somebody delete it allready. Please? :p 

ps: Really, it will be my last stupid thread.
May 16, 2008 9:23:16 AM

Wow, 14 years old, are you serious? I had no idea how old you were, but I figured if you were hanging around here (i.e. interested in linux and computers) you had to be AT LEAST 17 if not 18. I mean most people aren't really interested in anything serious (like alternative operating systems) at your age. Unless of course you are really a guy posing as a 14 year old girl, to which i might say that hanging around a linux forum would probably be a good way to blow your cover ;) 

-Zorak

P.S. given your previous comments about jobs, I am sorry to see that people refer to you as "Steve Jobs"

P.P.S. To the rest of the members of this forum, perhaps now that there are "youngsters" present we must never again bring up topics similar in nature to those mentioned in that other forum *cough* http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/236349-50-hans-reiser-geek-defense-strategy *cough* ;) 
May 16, 2008 9:46:51 AM

I was the one responsible for refusing entry to the other. Thank god we've started checking profiles before welcoming n00bs with our usual warm greatings.
May 18, 2008 9:54:12 AM

Don't bother apologising to me. You know I'm more than happy to lower the tone whatever the occasion :) 
May 18, 2008 10:39:28 PM

Quote:
Please don't think of me as 14, as it makes me sound old, alright? I still can't believe most people think I'm a guy... I mean like what kinda GUY tries to flirt with Reynod and TC... lol (Seriously don't think of gay people)


ROFL. If 14 makes you sound old, then I must be just about ready to start pushing up daisies over here...

-Zorak
May 19, 2008 10:00:25 AM

You're as old as my degree is.
May 19, 2008 1:43:24 PM

Best place to learn your craft. Get involved with the students union and you can learn the skills in all sorts of ways. A politics degree would give you a good grounding in the subject... maybe media studies.
May 20, 2008 3:20:45 AM

Quote:
^ I don't think I will get a degree if I'm gonna grow up as a human rights activist...


A university is where almost all sorts of activists go to study. Here's a sample course catalog:

- Comm 117: Basics of slogan design and delivery
- Graphical Arts 105: Protest sign design
- Journalism 101: Creative quoting
- Graphical Arts 201: Advanced sign manufacture (Prereq: GA105)
- Philosophy 104: Crowd dynamics
- Sociology *: * (need I say more?)
- English 103: Editorial letter writing
- Theater 108: Melodrama
- English Lit 102: Literature of the 1960s
- Political Science 101: City Ordinances and You
- Political Science 102: Electioneering






Okay, that was a joke, but not by much. Go ask somebody that goes to a university about activists, protesters, and hippie professors and you'll likely hear a bunch of stories if the person you ask was sober at least 2% of the time. At some campuses, that may not be that many people...
!