new PC, same software, XP hangs up all the time

[st123]

Hi everyone,

i would humbly request your assistance with a persistent problem.

I purchased a new PC (in components), installed the same software, but XP crashes differently.
On my old PC individual applications would sometimes crash, but XP would continue to function. Sometimes what i believe to be explorer.exe would also crash, rendering the taskbar without function, but i could still get a task manager with ctrl-alt-del, manually terminate explorer.exe, and manually restart it if the taskbar did not reappear by itself. These crashes especially liked to happen with certain things in opera, certain email actions and also if i tried to open PDFs. Annoying, but would never completely stop XP so that i couldn't get a taskmanager.

With the new system XP crashes differently, the taskbar also does not function, but ctrl-alt-del will not summon a task manager either. I can still switch tasks with alt-tab, and the mouse still moves, but if i try to operate any running programm it will not react, or only briefly, eventually ending up with white windows that will not not have any content and will not react to any commands. Then a reset via reset button is required.

I have already tried to eliminate the sources of the crash (i have a hunch it is mostly opera or acrobat reader). Curiously freezes will still happen when i open PDFs, even though i disabled the acrobat plugin for opera. It seems if i store the PDFs and open them from without opera it doesn't crash (that may be coincidental since i usually open PDFs without storing first). I already tried using a replacement for opera, but i can't be friends with firefox, i also tried other PDF viewers, but sometimes graphics will not render well. I need PDFs extensively and in best quality. I also tried a plethora of versions for both those programms with always the same outcome.

Anyway, the crashes (or better freezes) also happen at other times, when i'm not opening any PDF, so fixing that flaw will not entirely solve the problem. I can have no crash the whole day, but then several reboots may be needed within half an hour. I like to run my PC for long periods, usually only using standby, no power off, and having many applications running, it has a very bad influence on my mood when this expensive new PC is worse than the old, in this respect.

I'm afraid i will have to take up even more of your time, but i feel i ought to list my configuration in as much detail as i can.

Hardware:
2 x 1024MB DDR2 Aeneon PC6400 CL 5, PC6400/800
1 x AMD Athlon64 X2 4600+ AM2 box 2x512kB, Sockel AM2 EE 65W
1 x Gigabyte GA-M61P-S3, NVIDIA Nforce410+6100, ATX
1 x Gigabyte GV-NX73G128D NVIDIA 7300GS, 128MB, PCIe
2 x Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 SATA II 500GB 8MB ST3500841AS <--- running raid 0 over mobo raid
350W PSU, voltages stable
The system/CPU temperature is low.
The system is not overclocked. Note that the previous system was overclocked from 700 to 1100Mhz, so it particularly irks me this new system is so unstable by comparision.

There are two TFT screens connected, one on the onboard VGA and one on the PCIe card.
There is also a skystar 1 type digital satellite TV card, which does not work well with PCIe. That's the reason why one monitor runs over the on-board VGA (the picture is bad over PCIe).

For Software i run the following at virtually all times:

XP Pro German version
Opera (now 9.22 but same with older versions)
Progdvb (for the satellite card)
AntiVir (free-av.com)

Many other programmes too but no more i can think of which i used always when the crashes happen.

I have XP autoupdates ON
The latest DirectX is also installed.
I tried several VGA drivers, now running the latest from Nvidia page i think.

I installed XP several times when getting this PC, due to trouble with the TV card (before i learnt how it conflicts with PCIe). I ran previous installations for extended periods, and they would crash in the same way. Therefore i am very reluctant to re-install XP, since i expect no change, and will have trouble setting everything up "just right" again.

Apart from a general plea for any ideas what i could try to do i have a few specific questions:

*) Why might XP crash differently on this system, locking up so that even taskmanager won't come up?

*) Is there any software to log crashes - what caused them? I tried "inspectr.exe" but it will never register anything.

*) Are there any tools to test my hardware if maybe something is faulty? I would loathe to start swapping parts at random - i am not a car mechanic, i'm an electronics engineer who is used to "getting in there with a scope and finding the fault", but at a loss with software crashes.


I struggle with this for many months now, and at times it is a good exercise in self control to refrain from breaking something ;-)
Thank you for your time, and sorry that this ended up so long.

ST

 

[dmroeder]

Does XP run fine when it's freshly installed? Honestly, I have built 8 or so PC's since XP and have never really ran into any stability problems. I would install fresh and run it for a while to see if the issues are there.

What's the deal with your power supply? You go into specifics about every other piece of hardware but that. 350W is a bit low IMO, especially if it's a cheapy. A PSU is definitely not something to skimp on as it will cause you all kinds of headaches.

You can run Memtest86 to test your memory and I'm sure your HDD manufacturer has diagnostic tools on their website.

 

[st123]

Hi, and thanks for the reply.

No it crashed in the same manner right from the start, and also with a previous installation i had running for a few weeks. I had XP on my old PC for years, it was the best OS ever, stable as anything, which is why it is so frustrating that now it keeps crashing.

The deal with my PS is that i monitored the outputs with a scope to see if there are any drops in voltage, there aren't. The PC pulls 90W (primary input) when running normally, and 120W peak under full load, i don't see why i would need more power, especially since i know the voltages are stable and i only use 30% of rated power.
You see, i design SMPS for a living, so checking the power integrity was the first thing i did, and one of the few things i can actually do...

I will run memtest86, and also see if seagate makes a test tool.

Thanks!

ST

 

[st123]

Hmm, i found a tool at seagate, "seatools for windows".
Sadly it does not function, and action i try brings up an error message "unhandled exception has occured in your application..."
I made a screenshot here:
<http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=506l6d0>

I believe seagate has not programmed this tool with due diligence, but that is all too common these days. Maybe i will be more lucky with seatools for DOS, although i doubt it will work because you need a driver for the motherboard sata raid.

I will also run memtest86, which also requires booting into DOS first.

Any ideas how i can test my harddrives?


Thanks

ST

 

[st123]

Memtest86 completed a pass without any errors.
Does it make sense to start it again later and let it run for several passes?

Seatools for DOS fullfilled my expectations completely - they did not detect any drive (because of the RAID).

Any other ideas what i coud do?

Thanks!

ST

 

[dmroeder]

What brand and model of power supply? Just curious. 90 watts seems awefully low for having all the stuff that you have. I mean your processor consumes 65 watts alone. How exactly are you measuring wattage?

I would also remove every piece of hardware that is not required and run it for a bit. It appears that your board has onboard video too. I'd run it without the video card also.

 

[Zoron]

You should let Memtest run overnight. Sometimes errors will show up right away, but a lot of the time it takes a few passes before errors will start to show. You need at least 10 passes to determine if the RAM is ok or not.

 

[st123]

dmroeder:
Measured power with a wattmeter. As i said i'm an electronics engineer, I have the tools.
The old AMD Duron System needed more power, 150W at idle.
The new energy efficient CPUs are really working i guess, and also it isn't overclocked like the last one. The CPU will only take 65W at full load, then the PSU input power goes up to 120W too.

I really need both video cards, or i would have to go for days with an only partially useful PC (or worse without TV ;-) ). I don't think i have any hardware connected that i don't need every day. I could remove one RAM stick for a week, and then the other the next week, i don't think i'd notice that much, but apart from that i wouldn't know what i could take out with the PC still functioning.
The problem is the crashes happen so irregularly, it would take a while to be certain they've gone.

Zoron, thanks. I'm running downloads tonight but i will let memtest run tomorrow all day while i'm at work.

I will also run checkdisk and then defragment the system partition. I don't think it will do any good, but if the drives are causing trouble all this access might lead to a crash, which would give me a clue.

Thanks!

ST

 

[st123]

Hi,

i have found something today. I tried to start firefox, and the PC crashed again. I investigated some more in the crashed state, and found i can as usual switch tasks with alt-tab. All applications would briefly function after i made them active, for example i could move the slider in the volume control by a small amount. After this initial normal reaction (one click) the application will stop responding. This is the same for all open applications. The title bar will show "no response" then.
Initially i can also move windows around on the desktop, but soon they will no longer move. Eventually all open applications were not responding, the windows were empty. I could still move the mouse, and alt-tab continued to work, but i could never throughout the whole episode get a task manager with ctrl-alt-del, and of course the taskbar was completely dead too. I could also not start/open any applications from icons on the desktop.

The interesting thing is when i reset the PC i tried to start firefox again, and it froze again! Nothing else was running yet apart from the virus scanner. I hoped i had a repeatable way to cause this fault now, but no such luck, after another reset it would not crash again even though i did exactly the same thing. But this tells me the fault has nothing to do with any of my other applications, and also not with firefox, since usually i don't open firefox when it crashes, and the last time no other application was open.
So this must have something to do with hardware, XP itself, or some driver or something.

I get the impression the crashes are triggered by some input, when there is some sudden activity, like starting an application (firefox, acrobat).

BTW the system partition defragmentation completed without a hitch.

Still entirely clueless what is doing this to me.

Thank you

ST


/edit

It happened again! This time i tried to open a wmv movie file. This _definitely_ happens immediately when i try to start an application, and it does not seem to matter which application, and it doesn't happen every time.

I really have to fix this i can't keep rebooting all the time. ST

 

[zooter]

For what its worth, i had the same problem...

memtest showed no errors....ruled out hardware issues as Ubuntu was working fine (dual boot)

Tried every thing and finally after doing a fresh install of XP SP2, let Windows Update download and run...it updated a whole bunch of files (some 73 updates) and now my system is fine...no hangs for the past 2 weeks....

could be a video driver that could be the culprit and was probably locking up with my nVidia onboard controller...

I have been a little careful and not installed much software than is essential, but this seems not related to any particular software as the problem hapened right after a fresh install and after installing my video card drivers from the Nvidia cd (this could be the culprit too)

 

[konrad44]

For all seeking advice with this problem - I agree with zooter, it seems to be Nvidia drivers issue.

I have Acer 6920G laptop with GeForce 9500 GS onboard. I ruled out hardware problem as in Vista the system is stable as a rock. Yet in Windows XP I have exactly the same symtoms as st123 - gradual OS hangup with mose pointer dying last (curious - some functions like Fn+... keys still work even after all the rest is frozen I can make the screen as dark or as bright as I want).

I installed Win XP and started to install drivers: chipset, HDD (Intel Matrix System or something like that), and NVIDIA 175.16 drivers when the hangup appeard for the first time. Therefore if it isn't hardware (I know it is not), and not the system itself (negative again - the very installation CD was used on other computers without problems) it must be one of those three drivers. With NVIDIA drivers being the prime suspect.

Damn NV - I should have known to go with Radeon...

Now I will search a way to workaround problem - maybe different drivers will help?