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Here's a crazy idea, lunatic really

Last response: in Linux/Free BSD
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October 25, 2009 8:37:26 PM

vgvgvggvgbbhvgfggbhgbvg

oops. sorry. dropped a soba noodle on my keyboard (chopsticks) and had to dab up some of the tastiest chicken soup broth i've maybe ever made on a sunday afternoon ... kinda right there in the v, b, h and g area.

this idea mayve been inspired by the noodles.

i remember when i first "discovered" freebsd ... i wanna say it was in the early to mid-90s ... working at AT&T. and i think i was curious about it because it was, in my recollection anyway, it was the first operating system that was totally free. free of licensing and not "owned" in the classic sense by anybody. yet still updated and maintained by a lot of regular joes who just seemed to like it a lot.

i was a system administrator at the time managing Windows NT, HP-UX and NextStep systems (if anybody remembers those) and so i had the opportunity to play around getting freebsd to install there. i was surprised and impressed and have been in love with it ever since. that love for freebsd, in addition to the noodles, motivates this crazy idea.

remember when apple was struggling as a company its stock hitting new lows and kinda flailing a bit ... then invited Jobs back and bought Next Computing? then made NextStep/OpenStep -- essentially a BSD derived OS -- its own operating system? well you can just imagine how ga-ga i became about apple then (i had to hit the showers, in fact). and i also thought what an interesting idea for a major computer company to come around to, especially at the dawn (for me anyway) of the license-free operating system era. i still use all kinds of hardware and software and remain agnostic in my professional life (also because i'm paid to be) but since that adoption i've been a little sweet-on apple, as my grandmother wouldve described it. essentially the root of my affection was coupling a rock-solid OS to well-thought-out and sometimes downright pretty hardware.

now here's where i start to look a bit crazy, i'm sure.

what if microsoft could put its ego (or whatever you wanna call it) aside and say, yknow, apple had a really good idea adopting a free, open source (and very good, btw) operating system, then putting a well-designed user interface of the top of it and wrapping it in a pretty box. and further said, we should do that too. and ... yes ... gave DOS its prenuptially agreed upon payout and adopted freebsd under the windows interface as its own.

imagine what a game-changer that would be ... for apple, for microsoft for software all over the world and even for us lowly consumers too.

what if microsoft and apple both had their licensed interface over the top but also both ran bsd under their hoods?

i think it would be revolutionary.

and i mean the good kind.

we could all be on the same page. all pointed in the same technical direction. solving more interesting problems and spending less energy on nonsense partisanism ... and porting.

would microsoft have the balls to do it? could they?

would apple faint?

would microsoft surge?

would people care less about either apple or microsoft?

would it be better?

.... see i warned ya it was a crazy idea. lunatic really.

but perhaps that's what you get for eating soba noodles on a sunday afternoon.

what do you guys think?

More about : crazy idea lunatic

October 25, 2009 8:51:22 PM

Me thinks you also enjoyed some Saki...
October 25, 2009 9:51:44 PM

Interesting idea. In theory, it could yield interesting results. I just can't see M$ ditching their OS altogether after this long, and adopting another OS to re-work. As you said, their Egos might, and most likely would get in the way.

On another note, me thinks you should cut down on the noodles.


:) 
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October 25, 2009 10:09:32 PM

On a serious note I would have thought that the true future is OS independent applications, delivered through some VM type technology. Package with the application everything that was not provided by the base OS. We already have appliances (NAS, Router etc) delivered this way and with the XP mode in Win7 I could see this as a progression from that.
October 26, 2009 4:37:53 PM

Game developers could make their own custom Linux or *BSD live dvd with their game thrown on top :) 

App developers too :D 

Semper Fi
October 26, 2009 4:42:56 PM

If IBM can embrace Linux I don't see why Microsoft can't embrace FreeBSD. But I'd hate for it to happen.
October 26, 2009 5:15:47 PM

I'd hate for it to happen too! Many *BSD developers would defect and *BSD would lose out.
October 26, 2009 5:17:57 PM

I'd think many *BSD developers would leave Microsoft's *BSD of choice and move to other *BSDs or OSS projects instead.

$microsoft=&kiss_of_death();

Semper Fi
November 9, 2009 1:22:33 AM

yeah. if MS could adopt BSD without turning into the mess that happened when they "adopted" Java -- then eventually had to be sued to stop using the name. then i still think it could be interesting.

BSD would be good for both MS performance and MS security. its the open source OS where TCP/IP first was invented and that's been serving pages (on real servers) before "NT Server" existed. MS would gain the benefit of a long lived, heavily peer reviewed, widely respected POSIX/IEEE/ISO code base. and it would be good for software developers too because writing an app (or game) for Windows and for Mac would essentially be the same thing.

me thinks Apple might not appreciate the flattery because they might be forced to compete more on price. apples to apples if you will? (sorry, someone was going to say it) one of the reasons i buy apple anything is to get a good looking unix laptop. but if MS made good looking unix laptops, then ... ?

but again, MS might not go for it because theyd essentially be legitimizing open source by using it. its kinda sad really but they got big fragile egos there in Redmond. i know, i've worked for them there.

but they still could. the BSD open source license is also a bit different than the one GNU/Linux has because BSD license allows adoption of it, improvement and then even allows closing the source whereas GNU/Linux doesnt allow closing. so the BSD license is something even license-happy MS could appreciate.

part of this thought also comes out of me loading up a new 64-bit Windows OS and having it hacked before i finished getting it setup. i probably shouldnt have had it connected to the network the entire time but after all these years i also hate still having to treat it as being so fragile. a collateral result is that now, even after rebuild, the system's been running fine for a few days but ... i still ... well i still kinda dont trust it. you know how it is.

and i just want Windows to be, you know, better. i want to be able to stop worrying about it. and i hate having to add all these layers, sucking away performance which puts it at a disadvantage to well architected solutions like BSD.

... oh, and by the by ... i did cut back on the noodles a bit.

just in case that was part of the issue too.

thanks for your thoughts.

November 9, 2009 11:56:48 AM

Well, if that ever happens we'll face massive compatibility issues and people will whine and the OS the MS makes will end up like Vista, only worse. Most people won't be able to see the difference and the result will be Itaniumn for MS, unless it gets directed in the server market were it might stand a small chance.

Doesn't make sense for MS. It'd be shooting itself in the foot...
November 10, 2009 4:40:35 AM

amdfangirl said:
Well, if that ever happens we'll face massive compatibility issues and people will whine and the OS the MS makes will end up like Vista, only worse. Most people won't be able to see the difference and the result will be Itaniumn for MS, unless it gets directed in the server market were it might stand a small chance.

Doesn't make sense for MS. It'd be shooting itself in the foot...



Guys. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure we're talking about adding a "new" product here right? And not MS shooting its own body parts off by turning the existing MS fanworld upside down and cancelling everything its done over the past couple decades on a Thursday?

Apple added BSD and eased it into the marketplace over ... three years was it?

Now any application that runs on a Mac runs on the BSD mach kernel. Stable. Fast. Secure. AND No viruses. Even though BSD is currently and has been on high transaction, internet-facing servers for a long time. Certainly a long enough time for someone to have written one BSD virus. I don't know of one but if you know of one, or anybody knows of one, please name it and I'll pass it forward.

I'd expect MS would take the same tack. Ease it into the marketplace and if it flopped I doubt MS would miss the $10M (if that's what starting up a new business unit at MS really costs); they've paid far more in anti-competitive business practice fines without batting an eye. And adding a standards compliant line of products would be a way more interesting way to spend money.

If MS bought into an open standards compliant OS like BSD they'd already have all Mac apps which could probably work immediately. And all the open source apps which already run most of the internet. And all the new apps they'd either port themselves or let the community or vendors port for them. If it took Apple three, I bet MS could do it two.

Then all the whiners -- Tandersky are you listening? -- who yet complain about MS operating systems not being secure enough to fend for themselves on the internet without a lot of help would just have to ... shut ... up.

MS-BSD. I kinda even like the sounds of that.

PS, I almost hate to say but, might be nice to see Apple take pause too. (Is that locomotive on our track? Holee crapp that locomotive is on our track! Pedal Faster!! lol_ )
November 10, 2009 7:29:52 AM

Microsoft had their own Unix, they sold it to SCO in 1987.

There are viruses for Mac OS X and Mac OS Classic, far fewer than windows viruses but they do exist.
November 10, 2009 8:04:29 AM

But if more people use the MS Unix OS, there will be more viruses for us...
November 10, 2009 11:18:29 AM

you strike a good point there
November 11, 2009 2:56:58 PM

linux_0 said:
Microsoft had their own Unix, they sold it to SCO in 1987.

There are viruses for Mac OS X and Mac OS Classic, far fewer than windows viruses but they do exist.


Took the words out of my mouth. Makes sense though. Why would you spend time writing a virus that will only be able to infect ~5% of computer users (not like people that write viruses have lives, but still). If Mac's keep [unfortunately] growing in popularity, we will start seeing more viruses for them. There's a virus for the iPhone already, for example.
November 11, 2009 5:25:45 PM

linux_0 said:
Microsoft had their own Unix, they sold it to SCO in 1987.

There are viruses for Mac OS X and Mac OS Classic, far fewer than windows viruses but they do exist.


And then held a 25% stake in SCO so every time a 5r4 licence got sold MS made money... Got to love those boys.
November 15, 2009 4:14:43 AM

i've heard this argument so many times ... once OSX products become more popular then OSX will finally attract as many viruses as MS operating system does.

the folks who say this dont seem to understand that the underpinnings ... the core OS architecture. BSD has been and still is still a more secure, more standards compliant, and more popular server OS than Windows. not because its been hiding in obscurity but, at least in part, because it hasnt. its been running internet facing servers for at least a decade. and BSD is still free.

the BSD software architecture under the Mac OSX is very different from Windows.

so even when my boss at work says that's the reason there are "fewer" viruses on OSX (or BSD for that matter) i still have to ask ... please provide an example of a virus for either OSX or BSD. he cant and neither can i.

and the "virus" on the iPhone wasnt/isnt a virus at all. if you jailbreak an iphone and install an ssh app and dont change the default password on the ssh app then people can get into your jailbroken iphone using the default password you left open when you installed it. this not a failing of the OS architecture and that is not an example of a virus.

... and all of this is why i was suggesting MS consider migrating to a completely differently architected OS. performance and security.

anybody remember some of the "Barrelfish" rumors that were going around about MS new operating system?

not sure if it was BSD ... but it sounded like it had a BSD license anyway ...
December 7, 2009 7:03:07 PM

tanderskey said:
vgvgvggvgbbhvgfggbhgbvg

oops. sorry. dropped a soba noodle on my keyboard (chopsticks) and had to dab up some of the tastiest chicken soup broth i've maybe ever made on a sunday afternoon ... kinda right there in the v, b, h and g area.

this idea mayve been inspired by the noodles.

i remember when i first "discovered" freebsd ... i wanna say it was in the early to mid-90s ... working at AT&T. and i think i was curious about it because it was, in my recollection anyway, it was the first operating system that was totally free. free of licensing and not "owned" in the classic sense by anybody. yet still updated and maintained by a lot of regular joes who just seemed to like it a lot.

i was a system administrator at the time managing Windows NT, HP-UX and NextStep systems (if anybody remembers those) and so i had the opportunity to play around getting freebsd to install there. i was surprised and impressed and have been in love with it ever since. that love for freebsd, in addition to the noodles, motivates this crazy idea.

remember when apple was struggling as a company its stock hitting new lows and kinda flailing a bit ... then invited Jobs back and bought Next Computing? then made NextStep/OpenStep -- essentially a BSD derived OS -- its own operating system? well you can just imagine how ga-ga i became about apple then (i had to hit the showers, in fact). and i also thought what an interesting idea for a major computer company to come around to, especially at the dawn (for me anyway) of the license-free operating system era. i still use all kinds of hardware and software and remain agnostic in my professional life (also because i'm paid to be) but since that adoption i've been a little sweet-on apple, as my grandmother wouldve described it. essentially the root of my affection was coupling a rock-solid OS to well-thought-out and sometimes downright pretty hardware.

now here's where i start to look a bit crazy, i'm sure.

what if microsoft could put its ego (or whatever you wanna call it) aside and say, yknow, apple had a really good idea adopting a free, open source (and very good, btw) operating system, then putting a well-designed user interface of the top of it and wrapping it in a pretty box. and further said, we should do that too. and ... yes ... gave DOS its prenuptially agreed upon payout and adopted freebsd under the windows interface as its own.

imagine what a game-changer that would be ... for apple, for microsoft for software all over the world and even for us lowly consumers too.

what if microsoft and apple both had their licensed interface over the top but also both ran bsd under their hoods?

i think it would be revolutionary.

and i mean the good kind.

we could all be on the same page. all pointed in the same technical direction. solving more interesting problems and spending less energy on nonsense partisanism ... and porting.

would microsoft have the balls to do it? could they?

would apple faint?

would microsoft surge?

would people care less about either apple or microsoft?

would it be better?

.... see i warned ya it was a crazy idea. lunatic really.

but perhaps that's what you get for eating soba noodles on a sunday afternoon.

what do you guys think?


Sounds nice, although Microsoft would never do it. They've recently been castrated by Apple :D . Also, the technologically inept would be stamping their feet and holding their breath in the corner (IMO). However, techies like us would stop calling Microsoft M$, Microsucks, and my favorite, Winblows.
December 7, 2009 7:10:21 PM

Pyroflea said:
If Mac's keep [unfortunately] growing in popularity, we will start seeing more viruses for them.


I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but, yeah, Apple is gay +1.
December 29, 2009 2:10:38 PM

Hate to break this one to you but there are without any doubt more gay Windows users than Mac users.
December 29, 2009 6:43:40 PM

audiovoodoo said:
On a serious note I would have thought that the true future is OS independent applications, delivered through some VM type technology. Package with the application everything that was not provided by the base OS. We already have appliances (NAS, Router etc) delivered this way and with the XP mode in Win7 I could see this as a progression from that.


When I first started studying programming, and having a heck of a time getting the 627k conventional memory available to play a game I wanted on my 486SX-25, I had thought of this very thing. That way, there wouldn't be any memory management loaded in conventional memory to interfere with the app.

Well, that went by the way side fairly shortly (after I gave up on programming anything) and I forgot about it. Until recently.

I was reading up on VMWare's products, and they already have something like that.

http://www.vmware.com/products/thinapp/

I thought it was a good idea, and sounded a lot like what I wanted to do with DOS back in the day.
Sometimes, good ideas are good ideas, and many people will come up with similar things to get them done.
December 29, 2009 9:23:48 PM

audiovoodoo said:
Hate to break this one to you but there are without any doubt more gay Windows users than Mac users.


Only because there's 18 times as many Windows users :) 

Now, if you compare them per capita.... :p 
December 30, 2009 4:22:59 AM

Happyness.
December 30, 2009 9:04:48 AM

dgingeri said:

I was reading up on VMWare's products, and they already have something like that.

http://www.vmware.com/products/thinapp/

I thought it was a good idea, and sounded a lot like what I wanted to do with DOS back in the day.
Sometimes, good ideas are good ideas, and many people will come up with similar things to get them done.


Glad to see they finally listened to us ;) 

The other one from VM that interests me at the moment is the HyperV for mobile / PDA devices. Never mind there being 'an app for that' you can have 'an OS for that'.
December 30, 2009 9:08:26 AM

Pyroflea said:
Only because there's 18 times as many Windows users :) 

Now, if you compare them per capita.... :p 


You'll still find more Gay linux users in Canada... :kaola: 
December 30, 2009 10:08:04 AM

They have computers in Canada? You'll be telling me they have them in Australia next.
December 30, 2009 11:11:21 AM

Didn't they invent computers in Canada? :lol:  ducks for cover.

Semper Fi :) 
December 30, 2009 11:28:26 AM

No - that was the snowmobile, not the computer.
December 30, 2009 12:14:54 PM

Ijack said:
They have computers in Canada? You'll be telling me they have them in Australia next.

We have barbeques, we don't need computers.
December 30, 2009 2:03:57 PM

Ah - throw another Mac on the barbie.
December 31, 2009 1:43:17 AM

:lol: 

If I'm not mistaken the honor goes to Charles Babbage ( 1837 - UK ) and more recently Konrad Zuse ( 1941 - DE ), John Atanasoff and Clifford Berry ( 1942 - US ) and Tommy Flowers and associates ( 1944 - UK - Colossus Mark I ).

Now if you're talking old school you could go back to the abacus ( 2700–2300 BC ? ), the Antikythera mechanism ( 150 BC ), the astrolabe ( 200 BC ) and the slide rule ( 1600s? ).

The first known digital computer would date back to 1937 - 1941 or thereabouts.

Semper Fi :) 
December 31, 2009 1:51:13 AM

/me joins ijack and throws an old 8086 on the barbie. ;)  :) 
January 10, 2010 9:50:27 PM

Ijack said:
They have computers in Canada? You'll be telling me they have them in Australia next.


Yes we do, however it's quite difficult to get them running. I have a few 100ft. extension cords running into my igloo from the store down the road.



:) 
January 10, 2010 10:33:57 PM

I thought you all had CANDU reactors in your basements? ;) 
January 10, 2010 10:35:02 PM

linux_0 said:
I thought you all had CANDU reactors in your basements? ;) 


That's supposed to be a secret ;) 
January 11, 2010 12:45:26 AM

It isn't a secret any more ;) 

Please sign me up for a few of those my computers need more power :lol: 

Those were invented and made in Canada by the way :) 
January 11, 2010 5:08:16 PM

Windows > OS X when you have a small group of people trying to remote administrate hundreds of computers.

OS X is a PITA on a large enterprise network. Works great if all you need to do is login to the domain, print, browse the web. But that's all end user stuff.

OS X is like a castrated version of *nix/BSD with flashy graphics. *BUT* it runs smooth assuming none of the above on a large network.
January 12, 2010 4:02:15 AM

linux_0 said:
It isn't a secret any more ;) 

Please sign me up for a few of those my computers need more power :lol: 

Those were invented and made in Canada by the way :) 


Yeh, Canada... look what they did to Wolverine!
!