Watercooling advice

gow87

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Mar 22, 2007
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Right ive read through the help guide, ive scoured the internet for hours and i have a pretty good idea of what i want to do.

Basically i will be making a new machine soon, and every time i build a new pc i do something a little bit different to the last time. e.g first pc was a 2500barton overclocked (cheap cpu to play with) second build was a 3700+ which at the time was awesome but expensive.. then upgraded to a dualcore 3800 and clocked it up, also experimented with SLi. I have spent more and more money each time i build a new PC so i dread to think where i will end up.

Anyway long story short, time for water cooling. I have access to a CNC router so can cut out very accuratley, 2D shapes. This got me thinking:

I was thinking of buying two cheap cases and sticking them together then make the internals and externals using the router (this involves a lot of effort and time). This would give me the room i need for decent cooling and lots of space. not to mention the second case could hold the PSU/PSU's and all the watercooling kit.

Idea 2 is to buy one of those old huge server cases and using that.

Idea 3 was to make my pc a monster looking thing with two rads hanging off of the right hand side, and 2 cylidrical reservoirs sat on top. "Two?!?!" you ask. well i quite like the idea of two seperate loops as it gives me freedom for multiple graphics cards setups and more cooling power, and by using two i can avoid having hugely overpowered pumps and massive rads and still get good cooling.

Basically i want some input on here, i live in the UK so heatercores and such arent exactly common, well not the recommended ones anyway. and it is expensive. So i ask you to rip apart all the ideas and shoot me down, as it is the only way i will learn, tell me which idea you prefer and which you dont. Most of all i would like recommendations on specific brands and parts. I've looked into it a bit and realised that i'm seriously missing out here, so HELP ME!

And it must glow red... i like red.
 

Houndsteeth

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Jul 14, 2006
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If you are doing two loops, why not shy away from the cylindrical reservoirs and set up T-lines to bleed and refill your loops? You'll end up using less fluid in your loops overall, though it can make the process of bleeding a bit more time-consuming.

As for radiators, I know most of the US sites, but not too many UK or European sites (especially ones that offer American product). European water cooling seems to be dominated by German companies right now. If you can, look at getting two of the Black Ice triple 120mm radiators. You can mount them external to your case on the non-facing body panel.

If you are looking for a monster case with lots of room, take a look at the Thermaltake Mozart. It's probably going to be overkill for your needs, but that thing is HUGE.
 

gow87

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Mar 22, 2007
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yea had a look at the mozart... think that might be going a bit too far.. lol

well the point of the reservoir was to keep things simple, and having 2 on top would look attractive aswell. im padantic when it comes to symmetry.,. dont ask why 'cos i dont know.

Im thinking now it might be worth doind one decent loop, if i get a good size passive reservoir and a large radiator it should easily cope with GFX and CPU right? and this way i won't have tubes everywhere.

On another note, ive been pricing up 1/2" setups. whats the benefits/disadvantages of other tubing? what would you recommend?
 

gow87

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And on another note, been looking at the uses of peltiers, now i realise that the problem with this is the condensation, so if i have 2 average sized PC cases, what if i can make a peltier chamber for the radiator? this could help keep it cool and wouldnt be too demanding to do.. If anyone has any experience with peltiers, please reply or drop me a PM. the basic idea is.. well imagine a tunnel with peltiers, the rad would sit inside. All i would need to do is find someway to mount heatsinks to them.
 

Kurita

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I'd say for the sake of simplicity it would be best to stick to idea #2, as its simple to set up, more durable than using external components and far less effort then merging 2 smaller cases.

Although that being said, I'd like to see someone try sticking two cases together. I for one would like to see the pics when you are done! This method may also save money, as the larger cases become quite pricey. This method also lets you keep drive bays and fan mounts intact for all of your watercooling needs.
 

gow87

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Mar 22, 2007
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well i may have just been offered a "free" old ibm server case... which should suit nicely depending on which model it is. but if that fails 2 £15 cases stuck together should work nicely. the reason for the two cases would allow me to entirely isolate all "large" components, so power supply and water cooling rig can go into the second case, giving me more room. I was also thinking about ripping apart an old mini fridge and seeing if the components can be used... imagine a big assed pc with a place to cool ur beer!
 

Houndsteeth

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OK....a few questions and responses here...

1) 1/2" tubing - You'll get better performance because you will be able to move more fluid in the same space (as opposed to 3/8" and 1/4"). Also, you will be dealing with less impingement in your cooling loop, so your pumps will move the fluid more effectively.

2) The small fridge idea would not work as effectively as you would think it would. Your cooling loop would be a constant heat dump, which means the refrigerant compressor would run near continuous and eventually just give up the ghost. What you will find is that phase change PC cooling systems use a much higher grade of compressor that is designed to provide a constant temperature for a very small area (the size of your CPU, for example). That's why you spend about $800 for a decent phase change cooler, and only about $150 on a mini fridge.

3) A single good sized case should be all you need for the components you are describing. Remember, when you are water cooling, your need for air cooling goes down considerably, since you are concentrating it around your radiator. You do still need some passive cooling (for RAM, hard drives and power converter mofset cooling), but nothing that a single 120mm fan on the back of the case can't keep up with at a very low setting. Don't be afraid of externalizing your radiator (take a look at the Swiftech Radbox for some ideas). The tubing is actually quite durable, and if you use the metal worm-type hose clamps, you would have a very difficult time ripping the tubing off the barb.
 

gow87

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Mar 22, 2007
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i can make one, will post it up tomorrow, got an exam in the morning, so i should really be studying.

after posting i did read into the fridge idea to realise that you are indeed correct about the pump. its a nice idea, but as you said, it would have to be a pretty robust compressor in the fridge to get any kind of benefit. As for the peltier aproach, you can place them under the block for better cooling (correct me if im wrong) and with a little grease, should be able to prevent condensation. and for the sake of a couple of $ (or £ to us british lot) it seems worth it? does anyone know the major drawbacks of fitting them to the block?
 

Houndsteeth

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The peltier junctions work off the principle that you are electrically directing heat energy away from one side of the ceramic plate towards the other side of the plate (called thermoelectric cooling). You would still need to dissipate the heat away from the hot side of the junction or it will overheat and stop working. If you are interested in thermoelectric cooling, it is much more efficient to use the peltier junctions on your water blocks and then let your cooling loop run hotter, while the devices you are cooling end up being sub-ambient. If your temperature does drop below the dew point of the room you are in, you will get condensation, so be sure to protect you CPU, mainboard and GPU (anywhere you have the peltier junction, actually) with dielectric grease, conforming silicone and even neoprene coverings to keep condensation away from electrically sensitive areas.

Thermoelectric cooling is also electrically inefficient. You would be best served by using a separate dedicated power supply for the peltier junctions if this is the way you want to go.
 

gow87

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well as mentioned before, if the case is big enough, a second PSU wont be an issue. im guessing the back of the mobo and other areas would need to be covered in dielectric grease then, jus to be safe. I'm going to have a word with a few of my lecturers see if any of them know of any simple ways to drop temperatures. (im a chemistry student and physical chemistry touches on the thermodynamic laws) i know a bong can significantly reduce temperatures, and would be ideal if i could recondense the water into it, but otherwise its just wasteful. if all else fails i can get access to LN2 lol... but maybe not.

the peltier idea sounds good, but im not sure whether its worth having one on the GPU aswell, suppose it depends on the water cooling rig. i have some rough sketchup ideas i will post soon. until then, wish me luck with my exam!
 

brewster0101

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Reading this I noticed the Thermaltake Mozart Tx was mentioned. I had this for a short period and would not recommend it. Although it may look nice and big its not very deep and has many annoying issues such as the side doors do not come of.... When your playing inside you case these really get in the way.
 

phreejak

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Actually, the idea of condensation that most people have when dealing with peltiers is a bit off. Most thermoelectric water blocks offerred on the market come with ample neoprene padding that prevents any condensation issues.

I am running a 226 watt peltier on my CPU and, at times, will run a 226 watt peltier on my GPU. To compensate for the increased heat of two peltiers in a single cooling system I have two dual 120mm rads mounted externally - each with 4 120mm fans in a "push-pull" configuration. My CPU temps come in at 0 degrees celsius (I am unable to measure them into the negatives) any they never rise above that - even under load. My GPU temps (7900 GTX) average around -19 degrees celsius. I've yet to mount the peltier on my 8800 GTX but, am presently working on that before I install it.

As I mentioned previously, with proper neoprene padding, condensation is not going to be an issue (that, along with an efficient cooling loop). Now, if you were to use some higher pwered peltier like the 437 watt monster on the Arctic Sypder, that would be different. In any event, if you run two thermoelectric water blocks in a cooling loop, I wouldn't use more than two (2) 226 watt peltiers (for the CPU & GPU). Anything more pwerful than that and you'd be hard pressed to have any sort of a cooling loop that could remove the excess heat.
 

Houndsteeth

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While I have used some small peltiers in the past, I have yet to go completely thermoelectric on my cooling loop, due to the fact that I am loathe to mess with dielectric grease and conformal coating silicone. The neoprene I can handle, though, if that is all it takes.

Be aware that if you do go with thermoelectric cooling, you will have to increase your radiator cooling appropriately, since your loop temps will rise about 30-40° C accordingly. You do not want to run your loop over 90° C since it will increase your chance of a boil-off. Remember, we are looking to use the loop as a medium to transport heat, not as a means to cool evaporatively.