Ubuntu 11.04 vs Windows 8 Developer Preview.

[shafe88]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68wjjYzNmUk

 

[bmouring]

Excellent attempt at trolling, but Ubuntu's not meant to be lightweight. The difference with Linux is you have a choice to setup your system to be what you want it to be. I would love to see any version of Windows running on a commercial wireless router.

 

[Pyroflea]

Ubuntu is quite bloated as far as Linux distributions go. A bare-bones Debian install will use about 10MB of RAM. Even with LXDE installed, it will run off 128MB of RAM (not well, but it will). I'd like to see anybody run Windows off of that little memory.

 

[audiovoodoo]

My brothers original EEE-PC 704 with 512Mb and 900Mhz Celeron is working quite nicely with Lubuntu with a total install size including browsers and office of ~2.3Gb. Boot time under 25 seconds.

Somebody did manage Win8 on 128Mb but it took a few hours to boot.

 

[amdfangirl]

Those videos are always rigged.

I bet Fedora boots faster than Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is the bane of my exisitance. I like Mint and Debian. Something about Unity that I hate .

"Oh I installed Ubuntu, I'm such a computer expert."

Effyit.

 

[audiovoodoo]

"Oh I installed Ubuntu, I'm such a computer expert."

The sad thing is that as most people now using computers have never installed ANY OS they clearly show a skill level above most users. Now you could view that as sad, or as a sign that computers have finally come of age and a achieved the levels of abstraction from the underlying system they needed to achieve the goal of being usable by the masses.

For most people 'It just works' is all they need.

 

[amdfangirl]

It certainly is a regression. When I was younger, I used to stare in awe as my mum's boyfriend used DOS, all that command line stuff.

I do agree, I am a GUI-spoilt brat.



One day. They might not need computer enthusists. I should stock up on cool techie stuff before that happens. Intel killed cheap chip overclocking. I hope this isn't next. Personally I hate the advancement of mobile phones. I feel highly outdated not having one, not being able to operate one.

A part of me fears change.

Part of me fears the change brought by Windows 8 and the Metro UI.

I just take pride in knowing that sewing machine mechanics isn't going to change that quickly for the better anytime quick. I just fear ICs. I can't rip it apart after it breaks and make a stopgap solution with the newer machines.

They force you to buy new ICs. Or replace the whole thing. Such sadness I have, because sewing machines are no longer as good as they were in the 1930s.

Did I get sidetracked?

 

[audiovoodoo]

You did, but at the same time you gave me hope that at least some of those younger than me understand life a little better than I give them credit for at times.

Change in itself is not a bad thing, it's just sometimes the motives are counter intuitive to innovation. If you want a look at how bad the future could be then start reading up on UEFI and the impact it's likely to have on the Linux community.

 

[amdfangirl]

I don't feel part of my generation!

I read up on UEFI. I really hope AMD's coreboot will save Linux tbh.

If Linux goes the way of OS/2, BSD, etc. I'm following it.

Stockpile a lifetime's supply of outdated computer hardware.

 

[Pyroflea]

I don't feel part of my generation!

I'm with you on that one. I'm 19.

I welcome innovation with open arms, but am fearful for what the industry views as such. Everybody is trying to make everything sleek and "easy" to use, but they're ignoring functionality.

And that's the reason I enjoy using *nix. Rather than riffling through half a dozen different windows and tabs, I can type a single command to do what I want. To me that's ease of use.

 

[shafe88]

Those videos are always rigged.

I bet Fedora boots faster than Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is the bane of my exisitance. I like Mint and Debian. Something about Unity that I hate .

"Oh I installed Ubuntu, I'm such a computer expert."

Effyit.

I bet Tiny Core boots faster than Fedora

Just because someone installs Ubuntu doesn't mean their not a computer expert. How many non computer experts do you know is able to do a custom install of Ubuntu with GUI(Icewm) on an ancient i Mac g3 with only 94mb of ram.

 

[Pyroflea]

I bet Tiny Core boots faster than Fedora

Just because someone installs Ubuntu doesn't mean their not a computer expert. How many non computer experts do you know is able to do a custom install of Ubuntu with GUI(Icewm) on an ancient i Mac g3 with only 94mb of ram.

I think you're missing the point. She was trying to say that these people go through the automated GUI install for Ubuntu, and all of a sudden they think they're Ub3r 1337.

 

[bmouring]

I think you're missing the point. She was trying to say that these people go through the automated GUI install for Ubuntu, and all of a sudden they think they're Ub3r 1337.

Indeed, hell, just getting Ubuntu to a point where you can compile your own kernel is more than enough to turn away most new users (simply because there are multiple hurdles to overcome and you need to use the terminal for at least a large portion of the process).

We know that just because someone uses Ubuntu or Windows or OSX doesn't mean that they necessarily fall into the camp that is constituted by the stereotypical user for that OS, but some stereotypes exist for a very good reason.

 

[amdfangirl]

I bet Tiny Core boots faster than Fedora

Just because someone installs Ubuntu doesn't mean their not a computer expert. How many non computer experts do you know is able to do a custom install of Ubuntu with GUI(Icewm) on an ancient i Mac g3 with only 94mb of ram.

I'm just saying.

Fedora is nice and bloated with GNOME 3.

Just saying that it's better than having Unity built on top of GNOME 3 for a desktop environment.

LXDE = bliss.

Edit: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2111770/microsoft-explains-uefi-secure-boot-process?WT.rss_f=Home&WT.rss_a=Microsoft+explains+its+use+of+UEFI+to+%27secure%27+boot+process

UEFI secure boot might be ok for Linux. Might. .

 

[audiovoodoo]

I think the UEFI ball is firmly in the hands of MS. If they chose to force having the option to turn of secure boot as part of the Win8 certification (Google do something similar with a switch inside the battery compartment of the Chromebook Samsung make) then all will be well.

What I fear may happen is that this is left to the OEM. What this could produce is a situation where enterprise spec laptops will have the option (as they know they need to support corporate builds) but consumer grade might well not. Likewise the enthusiast gammer boards will likely get such a switch but those that come with a consumer orientated Dell might well not as they don't see the need when 99% of the purchasers will just run what they are given and the security benefit will help the bottom end on the support costs.

 

[shafe88]

I think the UEFI ball is firmly in the hands of MS. If they chose to force having the option to turn of secure boot as part of the Win8 certification (Google do something similar with a switch inside the battery compartment of the Chromebook Samsung make) then all will be well.

What I fear may happen is that this is left to the OEM. What this could produce is a situation where enterprise spec laptops will have the option (as they know they need to support corporate builds) but consumer grade might well not. Likewise the enthusiast gammer boards will likely get such a switch but those that come with a consumer orientated Dell might well not as they don't see the need when 99% of the purchasers will just run what they are given and the security benefit will help the bottom end on the support costs.

I think if it is left to the OEM, you will only be able to turn off secure boot on their higher priced models or make people buy a special firmware update with the option to turn off secure boot.

 

[audiovoodoo]

Wonder if Intel will use this to control the software enabling of processor features. There was something about this on the server side where you would get a SW update to enable extra cores. UEFI could be a great place to hold the key to that too.

 

[bmouring]

I would definitely see those knuckleheads trying to pull this one, but some technologist talking head would get tipped-off to the shenanigans and paint it in the not-entirely-unreasonable "You computer may force you to update to a new version of Windows in the future, but not how you're thinking" story, and I would hope that that would get on the radar of the general populous who has the power to change the policy with outrage and voting with their wallet.

But the crux of the whole thing is getting the story out to the general public in a way that gets them to realize how bad some some approach to tech is for them (the major issue as to why many people don't realize how bad the cellular providers in the US suck)

 

[audiovoodoo]

The flip side to that is how many Android phones ship and then never get a SW update. Mine was one of the ones that got abandoned along the way

As for the consumer voting with their $/£ then the rise of mobile computing does make me wonder where we will be in a few years. The Asian market is moving towards Tablet / Phone for most users and I can see the same happening in the west. Most users are content consumers, non technical and just want it to work. When the ARM Win8 tablets come out and people realise that they can't run legacy applications the MS advantage will be seriously dented. Android / WebOS / iOS do 99% of what they need.

 

[amdfangirl]

Well there is a growth in the Asian sector for desktops and an amazing amount of Asians buying desktops with discrete graphics. The Asian sector you're thinking of is the richer captalist nation states and adminitrative regions such as Japan, Taiwan and Hong Kong.

In the rest of Asia, more people are getting connected for the first time, that means desktops, rather than phones or tablets. I know from experience the traditional Chinese method of thinking means that people are much more likely to buy phones and tablets outright rather than go onto contracts and prefer pre-paid over plans.

Which is why the desktop is more popular.

Mind you, M$, could at some stage release a "rosetta" for ARM.

Slow and clunky, but here are your legacy applications.

 

[audiovoodoo]

I'll have to dig out the figures as that does seem to conflict with what I have read. The ones I saw related to first time internet users in SE Asia and that there was far more growth in new net access from smartphones than any other platform. It might be that PC sales growth could come from this but given the income of much of the population I struggle to see it.

The outright ownership of devices was certainly my observation from loosing a couple of days in the tech markets in Thailand and Malaysia (mad to see people manually fixing surface mount components in the repair shops) where all prices were for unlocked devices. The rates charged by Digi in Malaysia were insanely low, to the point I more than paid for the cost of a budget handset in savings over using payphones when calling home a couple of times. I spent about £1 on a long call and instantly got a text advising me I had 24 hours of free same net video calling if I wanted. Compared to UK prepay where you get shafted for not being part of the grand hire purchase scheme it was a very refreshing change.

As an aside - I was sensible and bought a basic unlocked Samsung for about £5. For another £30 I could have gotten one of their 'Blueberry' phones. Whilst not a blackberry they look the part and have loads of features. Hell for less than £50 I could have had dual SIM, Mobile TV and WiFi. Just didn't want to risk it.

 

[amdfangirl]

I could be wrong. I am quite frequently in this forum .

Asia is a big place. Silly of me to generalise it into China + Japan + Taiwan.

Probably gravitate like that because the boyfriend is Chinese.

[rant]

Anyhow, gave an end-user some choice between GNOME, KDE, XFCE and LXDE on Fedora. It's hardly what you call a "democracy" but then again, I'm better at supporting Fedora with a Fedora cheat cube

With the latest KDE, I just stared at the desktop and went "wat?"

I've used KDE before, in the days of Fedora Core 4, liked it then, perhaps idk, but understood how to use it. But the experience of KDE was nothing short of confusing. I just stared at the interface, found the logout menu. *shudder*

I tested out XFCE and it had a Mac bar *shudder*

The new GNOME lost the... idk *shudder*

So here I am, typing this from LXDE. Seemingly the only sane desktop environment. I decided to keep two copies of the LXDE Fedora 15 spin in case they ever dared change the interface.

But I don't like the LXDE logo, it's so ugly... So I can't stick a fat LXDE logo on my laptop *shudder*

I hate you change!!

(Remind me to be objective when I do the writeup on desktop interfaces in the beginner's guide thread)

Change is really scary for me, that's why I use the Windows 2000 theme in Windows 7.

I hate gloss. I hate shiny. I want functional. Like LXDE. Or Windows 2000.

I hate how Windows 7, GNOME 3, KDE, XFCE and Unity are taking inspiration from Mac OS X.

I used to like Mac OS X. Until they made you upgrade to the latest version to install any *proprietory* software. Then introduced an app store.

Oh, by the way, I will figure out how to ban the next user who tells me to use Unity or Ubuntu for that matter.

[/rant]

 

[bmouring]

With the latest KDE, I just stared at the desktop and went "wat?"

I've used KDE before, in the days of Fedora Core 4, liked it then, perhaps idk, but understood how to use it. But the experience of KDE was nothing short of confusing. I just stared at the interface, found the logout menu. *shudder*

I tested out XFCE and it had a Mac bar *shudder*

The new GNOME lost the... idk *shudder*

So here I am, typing this from LXDE. Seemingly the only sane desktop environment. I decided to keep two copies of the LXDE Fedora 15 spin in case they ever dared change the interface.

But I don't like the LXDE logo, it's so ugly... So I can't stick a fat LXDE logo on my laptop *shudder*

I hate you change!!

(Remind me to be objective when I do the writeup on desktop interfaces in the beginner's guide thread)

Change is really scary for me, that's why I use the Windows 2000 theme in Windows 7.

I hate gloss. I hate shiny. I want functional. Like LXDE. Or Windows 2000.

I hate how Windows 7, GNOME 3, KDE, XFCE and Unity are taking inspiration from Mac OS X.

1) You must be Republican
2) This kinda stuff is why I keep going back to fluxbox (well, that and I agree with what it does in terms of being a WM)

 

[Ijack]

I'm now using XFCE4 as my Fedora WM. It's functional, and light, enough for my needs. I agree that I just hate what's happening to Gnome and, to a lesser extent, KDE.

I got so fed up that I've now built an additional Linux install using LFS (I cheated and used ALFS!). Again, I'm using XFCE4 as the WM and the whole setup is so much snappier than current distros. Only thing is it's going to be a pain keeping it updated. (On the other hand, if it does what I want then why bother - other than updating the kernel from time to time?)

 

[audiovoodoo]

Is this where I get an open source kicking for admitting that for the last 3 years I've just been running Vista 64?

As much as it pains me to say it I've just not had any issues that have motivated me to switch back. I do play with some mini distros from time to time and hack away at my brothers Lubuntu install. It's just easier to keep up to date with the Windows side when you run it and that's what was paying my bills. If the next job is non technical (distinct risk in the current climate) then I'll probably embrace my inner Geek and try LFS for the learning experience.