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AMD 785G: The Venerable 780G, Evolved

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August 4, 2009 4:01:00 AM

AMD has enhanced one of its most popular integrated graphics chipsets with some compelling new features, creating the 785G. We examine this chipset, compare it to Nvidia's GeForce 8200/9400 and Intel's G45, and test several of its claimed capabilities.

AMD 785G: The Venerable 780G, Evolved : Read more

More about : amd 785g venerable 780g evolved

August 4, 2009 4:21:18 AM

the real question is how would this perform if mated to an Atom processor in an nettop.
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-23
August 4, 2009 5:23:18 AM

"refined architecture" ? To my knowledge, and please correct me if im wrong, all that was changed between the original phenom and the phenom 2 was the addition of more L3 cache allowing it to do more simultaneously and a die shrink allowing for higher clocks. That does not a refined architecture make. When AMD added an on die memory controller to their processors years ago they had made a huge advancement in architecture. Im sad to see them fall away from the performance crown. Here's hoping their new Bull Dozer architecture brings something genuinely intriguing to the table.
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-10
Related resources
August 4, 2009 5:25:53 AM

^^^ and support for DDR3. Although thats a change to the board, not the CPU.
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-18
August 4, 2009 6:37:19 AM

Very interesting.
A integrated GPU that can game. =D

Makes my lil Pentium D with a 4670 seem puny...
3.3GB/s memory bandwidth (single channel DDR2 533... though 2 sticks, it runs in single channel... damn prebuilts) also seems sad on my rig...

macer1the real question is how would this perform if mated to an Atom processor in an nettop.


Good question. A dual core Atom with a 4200 integrated would be nice.
We all know Intel makes shitty mothebroards and AMD makes kickass motherboards anyways.
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-3
August 4, 2009 7:21:28 AM

mcnuggetofdeath^^^ and support for DDR3. Although thats a change to the board, not the CPU.


Not correct, the P2 has a built in memory controller so the switch to ddr3 affected that controller
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9
August 4, 2009 8:27:52 AM

anamaniacVery interesting.A integrated GPU that can game. =DMakes my lil Pentium D with a 4670 seem puny...3.3GB/s memory bandwidth (single channel DDR2 533... though 2 sticks, it runs in single channel... damn prebuilts) also seems sad on my rig...Good question. A dual core Atom with a 4200 integrated would be nice.We all know Intel makes shitty mothebroards and AMD makes kickass motherboards anyways.



Native ram for a pentium d is PC4200 which has a max of 4.2gb/s per channel etc and the FSB has the max of 6.4gb/s

The Intel atom would most likely underpower any video card out there, and Intel does actually make a good reliable business platform where video performance is not required etc
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1
Anonymous
August 4, 2009 10:13:36 AM

I'm sorry, is this an Intel benchmark site? All other reviews put SYSTEM power consumption for Athlon II 250 well below Intel E7200.
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-3
August 4, 2009 11:27:27 AM

This article raised a lot of questions for me. What about Hybrid Crossfire for example? What kind of cards can be used together with this new IGP? Is the discrete graphics card on standby if no performance is required? If no then how much extra outlet wattage is expected? And how much extra if actively in use? I'm interested in using the 785G solution in the 24/7 HTPC setup with the possibility to do occasional gaming as well. My current setup with 690G chipset and Athlon 64 X2 BE-2350 CPU draws around 50 watts most of the time and up to 90 watts under heavy load. Is it too much to expect similar levels from 785G and Phenom II X3 705e combo for example?
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1
August 4, 2009 12:10:04 PM

when can we see the mobile version of this? this is most certainly a welcome update compared to the 780g-hd3200 chipset. and beats any nvidia igp hands down. id love to see this on an $700-$800 laptop. good thing im still holding back on buying a new notebook.
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1
August 4, 2009 12:30:08 PM

Good timimg, I was wondering if 785G is better than 790GX or not yesterday. Thanks.
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4
August 4, 2009 12:33:15 PM

ArticleThere are two lessons to be learned here: first, if you really care about the environment, turn your PC off (or at least configure it to enter sleep mode) when you're not using it, and second, don't be afraid of purchasing a better processor for fear that it will cost you big money in power consumption.


Perhaps the next task could be a power comparison to tell us how long a computer needs to stand in active state to consume more power than turning it off and back on again (including starting msn,av software and a bunch of other stuff running in the background).

Anyway good article :) 
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0
Anonymous
August 4, 2009 12:47:16 PM

McNuggetOfDeath: There were changes to the Phenom II architecture, 45nm is not what enabled higher clocks, it was architectural changes(mostly regarding internal latencies). There were also other changes as well that enabled higher IPC and smoother overall performance.

PS: Phenom II does support DDR3, there are only 2 models out of 12 that don't...
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3
a b À AMD
August 4, 2009 2:04:39 PM

Pei-chenGood timimg, I was wondering if 785G is better than 790GX or not yesterday. Thanks.

========
My take on it is except for some specific HTPC features, the 790GX is still the better of the two, especially if any gaming is involved. They compared an OC'ed 785G to a stock 790GX; what if they'd OC'ed the 790GX also?
And, lest anyone develop any false hope, the Intel IGP has once again been shown to be a toad.
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2
August 4, 2009 3:19:13 PM

One of the best things this chipset brings is a lower cost on AM3 motherboards, if you want to use PhenomII processors paired with DDR3 ram and a single video card, you can pay 89-99 dollars for the motherboard. I think this is important.
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8
August 4, 2009 4:11:55 PM

I would totally use this with my home theatre PC.
Let's seee... Decent performance, able to play HD videos, low cost. That covers everything I need for a HTPC!
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7
August 4, 2009 4:12:16 PM

aproldcukThis article raised a lot of questions for me. What about Hybrid Crossfire for example? What kind of cards can be used together with this new IGP?


We concentrated on the new aspects of the 785G in this article; hybrid crossfire is exactly the same as it was with the 780G, that is to say it maxes out with a 3450 card.
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2
August 4, 2009 5:16:34 PM

"At idle, the Phenom II X2 is drawing the highest load: 92 W on the 790GX motherboard. In contrast, the E7200 is drawing 68 W on the most efficient platform, Intel's G45. It looks big on the chart, but it's a difference of 14 W."

Nope, it's using a 24 W difference. I think that's why your numbers are different too. I get:

24 Watts * 24 hours = 576 WHrs / 1000 W/KW = .576 KWHrs * $0.15 cents/KWHr * 365 days = $31.54

Good article otherwise, thanks.
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4
Anonymous
August 4, 2009 5:17:36 PM

Quote:
refined architecture" ? To my knowledge, and please correct me if im wrong, all that was changed between the original phenom and the phenom 2 was the addition of more L3 cache allowing it to do more simultaneously and a die shrink allowing for higher clocks. That does not a refined architecture make. When AMD added an on die memory controller to their processors years ago they had made a huge advancement in architecture. Im sad to see them fall away from the performance crown. Here's hoping their new Bull Dozer architecture brings something genuinely intriguing to the table.


That is incorrect, if that was the case, the Phenom II wouldn't benchmark so much better and it wouldn't overclock so much better. Just because it has the Phenom name to it, doesn't mean all they did was give it a bit more L3 Cache and call it a day. You could've given the original Phenom more L3 cache all day long and it wouldn't still ran like poop. Not necessarily poop, but just not as well as the Phenom II.
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-1
August 4, 2009 5:34:53 PM

cleeveWe concentrated on the new aspects of the 785G in this article; hybrid crossfire is exactly the same as it was with the 780G, that is to say it maxes out with a 3450 card.


If this is true, then why does the Hybrid crossfire graphic on the first page show HD4350, HD4550 and HD4650 as compatible hybrid crossfire GPUs?

It makes sense.. the 780G used an integrated 3200-series GPU, so it was compatible with lower-end dedicated 3000-series GPUs. The 785G uses an integrated 4200-series GPU, so it should be compatible with the lower-end dedicated 4000-series GPUs.

Can you clear this up? I was also wondering what GPU's can be used as Hybrid crossfire with the 785G. I thought I knew from that graphic on page 1, but your response confused me.

Thanks
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4
August 4, 2009 5:53:24 PM

cleevehybrid crossfire is exactly the same as it was with the 780G, that is to say it maxes out with a 3450 card.

Thanks for clearing it out, Cleeve! There is not much sense using Hybrid CF then. However, my original question still remains: how much extra wattage may one expect with mid-range 4600 or 4700 card added for example? Does disabling the device help here a bit more when not in use? Hope this is not too off-topic already...
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1
August 4, 2009 6:05:05 PM

KT_WaspIf this is true, then why does the Hybrid crossfire graphic on the first page show HD4350, HD4550 and HD4650 as compatible hybrid crossfire GPUs?


It doesn't - it says "add faster graphics".

AMD specifically made it a point to let me know Hybrid Crossfire is no different than it was with the 780G.

Remember, the 4200 has the exact same number of shaders as the 3200. Hybrid Crossfire is limited by the power of the integrated GPU, and on that front the 3200 and 4200 are absolutely equals.
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3
August 4, 2009 6:07:43 PM

mcnuggetofdeathThat does not a refined architecture make.


The word 'refined' can be interpreted a great many ways. I think we might be splitting hairs here, fellas.
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2
Anonymous
August 4, 2009 7:43:00 PM

This board, to me, seems like an interesting option for a budget gaming system. I say this because, at least for the Asus ASUS M4A785TD-V EVO, you get both Hybrid Crossfire and Crossfire-X for $99.99.

According to the graphic on the first paid, the 785 chipset allows for Hybrid Crossfire with up to an HD 4650 card, so if you already have Vista, you have possible a decent budget video system.

For those of us holding onto XP, you can have a Crossfire (8+8)capable AM3+DDR3 board for $100.
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0
August 4, 2009 9:20:24 PM

CleeveIt doesn't - it says "add faster graphics". AMD specifically made it a point to let me know Hybrid Crossfire is no different than it was with the 780G.Remember, the 4200 has the exact same number of shaders as the 3200. Hybrid Crossfire is limited by the power of the integrated GPU, and on that front the 3200 and 4200 are absolutely equals.


Ahh... Ok, I see it now. So, basically it is a HD3000 series GPU, but ATI pulled a "Nvidia move" and tweaked it slightly, then relabeled it so people think they are getting the next generation.... This is starting to get old with these company's pulling this crap....
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-3
August 4, 2009 9:39:23 PM

KT_WASP said:
Ahh... Ok, I see it now. So, basically it is a HD3000 series GPU, but ATI pulled a "Nvidia move" and tweaked it slightly, then relabeled it so people think they are getting the next generation.... This is starting to get old with these company's pulling this crap....


I hear you, man. it certainly doesn't help make things clearer.
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0
Anonymous
August 4, 2009 10:27:13 PM

KT_Wasp - I'd certainly agree if they did it with discrete mid to high-end GPUs like Nvidia does, but seriously, who upgrades their motherboard for the purpose of getting a newer generation IGP? Chipsets have always had evolutionary progression rather than revolutionary, especially the IGP part of it, they could easily cram more stream processors in it, but that would create thermal problems since putting a fan on a northbridge is rather taboo these days.
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1
August 4, 2009 11:57:23 PM

ArticleEd.: After discussing with AMD earlier today, it would seem that eight-channel LPCM is not one of the features present in 785G.

Hmm... I wonder what's really behind it? Everybody talked about it weeks ago and AMD said nothing. Why say only now? This was supposed to be one major difference from 780G and now it's really hard for me to justify the planned platform switch :( 
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0
August 4, 2009 11:58:08 PM

Seems like a 785G board would certainly be worth a few bucks more than a similar 780G board. Even though the Pentium D series is a good value, pairing it with a G45 board for a low end system makes it less so than say an Athlon II X2 and a 785G board. Good article, but it would have been interesting to see something like Hulu back since I think that's something an HTPC would be used for.
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2
August 5, 2009 5:18:56 AM

I'd like to see how the 550 oc's on the 790 vs. the 785 vs. the 780
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1
August 5, 2009 8:09:11 AM

mcnuggetofdeath"refined architecture" ? To my knowledge, and please correct me if im wrong, all that was changed between the original phenom and the phenom 2 was the addition of more L3 cache allowing it to do more simultaneously and a die shrink allowing for higher clocks.


You're wrong, actually:
http://www.amdzone.com/index.php/reviews/60/11033-amd-p...

In addition to the bigger and slightly faster L3 cache and die shrink, the Phenom II got Path-based indirect branch prediction, Larger load/store buffering / larger floating point buffering / reduced MAB (missed address buffer) lifetime, 2x increase in core probe bandwidth, Improved LOCK pipelining and improvements to the Floating point register-to-register move instruction (FP MOV).

Of course, the larger L3 cache and higher clock speed are probably responsible for most of the performance improvements over the original Phenom.

Too bad about the missing multi-channel LPCM support in this chipset. This kind of confusion and incorrect information (which was published by many sites, not just THG) is never good PR.
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1
August 5, 2009 9:04:37 AM

I'm still confused about the sideport memory ever since the 790GX review.
1. What's the max memory capacity for the sideport in 785g?
2. Like 790 when it's in hybrid crossfireX, what's the memory configuration available? Like, can it still be (sideport+shared)+HD3450, or sideport+HD3450, or shared+HD3450?

1 thing that I notice is that idling with 790GX consumes only 68watts. So I'm guessing in test with 785g, it's higher because of the 1KW PSU? (The difference is 150W previous test setup is 850W). Previously Phenom X4 9350e, though I'm not sure if Athlon II should consume more because it's 1GHz faster (Old Phenom is a more power hungry CPU isn't it?)

Sorry if this sound like forcing to get some answers, I'm just too eager and excited the moment my RSS feed says "Updated: AMD 785G: The Venerable 780G, Evolved" which I've been waiting since CES 2009 :D 
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0
August 5, 2009 9:12:44 AM

Sorry for double posting but I guess most people will say the max capacity for the sideport memory is clearly 128MB. I'm just wondering what's the max capacity that manufacturer's can put? 512MB? :D 
If 790GX gained 1~2fps from 128MB, so 512MB could give a ~10fps more? 512+512 = 1GB... sweet. Add up $20 maybe. Hahaha :D 
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0
August 5, 2009 10:35:40 AM

As to the LPCM, I smell a dash of DRM/Hollowood fees here
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0
August 5, 2009 1:52:24 PM

Until a viable (ie not $200 sound card) solution appears that can bitstream DTS-MA or Dolby TrueHD I have no reason to change my HTPC from the current 780g setup.

Until then, optical audio out + hdmi video out seems to be what I'll be sticking with in the near future. I refuse to pay $200 for a sound card, which then restricts me to a single piece of software (TMT) for my bit streaming needs.
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0
August 5, 2009 3:33:21 PM

drealarI'm still confused about the sideport memory ever since the 790GX review.1. What's the max memory capacity for the sideport in 785g?2. Like 790 when it's in hybrid crossfireX, what's the memory configuration available? Like, can it still be (sideport+shared)+HD3450, or sideport+HD3450, or shared+HD3450?1 thing that I notice is that idling with 790GX consumes only 68watts. So I'm guessing in test with 785g, it's higher because of the 1KW PSU? (The difference is 150W previous test setup is 850W).


I've never seen a hard limit published as to the memory capacity for sideport, but I've never seen anyone put more than 128MB on a board. Sideport can still be shared with system memory in CrossfireX.

For power usage, AFAIK the total wattage of the PSU shouldn't matter so much, but the efficiency of the PSU should. The Thermaltake Toughpower 1200 is a very efficient PSU.
Score
-1
August 6, 2009 1:08:20 AM

Thanks Cleeve, though I'm still concerned about the PSU since most reviews are showing better efficiency when setting up a low power system with low wattage 80Plus PSU. What happened to Tom's FPS220 or what ever the model is from Fortron? I really admire that PSU but unfortunately never been available here.

Another thing is, does CrossfireX RAM works something like system RAM? I mean is it better to have 2 same RAM type (like DDR2 or DDR3) with the same capacity (256/256, or 512/512). It's just that it's quite hard to get a 512MB HD3450 these days, let alone the model itself. Wonder if ATI will ever upgrade Hybrid CrossfireX, since crossfiring with the chipset is kinda unlikely to happen with the low stock of HD 3450.
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1
August 6, 2009 1:55:39 AM

First there most be something wrong here. This is the first real article at toms in ages. I cant believe that a AMD system beat the Nvida+Intel system. Tom has for the first time in ages the same results as every other major site. I just cant believe my eyes.
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2
August 6, 2009 6:58:03 AM

Almost makes me wanna suck it up and replace my ageing 690G.
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1
August 8, 2009 6:58:17 AM

i think 785g and 780g are the same thing with other name they have the same rops,shaders,freq.perfomance,ect.the drivers see the name hd4200 and use the uvd2 feature thought,its marketing,the only cool thing is that sb710 can unlock the 2 extra cores.
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0
August 8, 2009 9:41:24 AM

it's like Core 2 65nm to 45nm
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0
Anonymous
August 10, 2009 6:04:18 AM

This makes for a very attractive solution to good desktop on the cheap. The Nvidia Ion boards run about 200$. When for about 75$ I can grab a 785g board, a sempron 140 or athlon ii x2 for about 40-60$-ish and get the ram within that 200$ mark. Also have about twice the horsepower when needed.
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1
Anonymous
August 10, 2009 12:25:21 PM

My 780G works perfectly out of box with Windows 7.
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1
August 13, 2009 8:45:16 AM

Why did you put A-Data against Gskill? Obviously to make a-data lose and promote ddr3
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-2
August 13, 2009 8:46:07 AM

Why put A-dadta up against ddr3 gzkill, to make ddr2 lose not matter what so you can tout the use of ddr3...
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-2
Anonymous
August 13, 2009 11:16:36 AM

The table shows 790GX having an output of HDMI 1.2. Is that correct? I thought 790GX was HDMI 1.3 compliant. Please clarify.
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0
Anonymous
August 13, 2009 4:44:22 PM

I need ITX board, there is not much AMD boards in this format.
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0
August 13, 2009 9:19:21 PM

bryce55Why did you put A-Data against Gskill? Obviously to make a-data lose and promote ddr3


What do you have against A-data? They make pretty damn good RAM.
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2
August 24, 2009 10:07:23 AM

RAM... only thing I care about... brand, cheapness and cheapness
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2
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