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Anonymous
January 9, 2005 7:49:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hey All,

I've got some questions regarding the current offerings of HDTV.
Specifically regarding direct view CRT based sets. I was looking at
the Sony offerings (34HS420 model). In doing some research, it would
appear to me that CRT sets can only draw 540 lines vertically. This
appears to be a limitation of the CRT technology. So, what am I
actually getting for the $1500? It doesn't natively support 720p, and
the support for 1080i seems to be just downconverting to 540i.
Besides the widescreen, what am I getting? That's definitely not
HDTV.

Again, this is my understanding, and I could be wrong.

Also, what do these CRT sets do with the 720p signal? Since they
aren't native, they're either converting to 1080i (then subsequently
down to 540i) and you're losing the progressive scan benefits, or
they're converting down to 540p (480p?) and keeping the progressive.
The latter sounds much better to me, except for now you have to scale
the image, and will undoubtedly have some artifacts.

Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've been scouring the
internet for weeks, and can't come up with any answers...

Thanks,

Tim

More about : questions

Anonymous
January 9, 2005 11:45:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Tim Watkins wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> I've got some questions regarding the current offerings of HDTV.
> Specifically regarding direct view CRT based sets. I was looking at
> the Sony offerings (34HS420 model).

This 34" model or the Sony 30" version are the Sony introductory
HDTV Monitors with very nice internal guts that makes for
superb picture quality with either Digital Signals or
in some cases Analog signal inputs....

In doing some research, it would
> appear to me that CRT sets can only draw 540 lines vertically.

This technical debate has been discussed before here....
It is not a reason to eliminate 34" HD tubes from
your purchasing decision...


This
> appears to be a limitation of the CRT technology.

CRT is analog based in it's final picture processing step...
Since 16:9 HD CRT tubes can not practically mass produced over
34" diagonal due to: Weight, precision, size of doorways,
and nonlinear size effects... Every Digital processing
step can be 100% digital (except for the final CRT display),
IF DVI or HDMI Video inputs are used....
Those Digital Processing guts are not the same for all HD sets...
Some are superb, some are avg,.... Some are low buck....


So, what am I
> actually getting for the $1500?
From Sony you are getting the Superb consumer Digital Signal
Processing guts......


It doesn't natively support 720p, and
> the support for 1080i seems to be just downconverting to 540i.

For the Cheaper HDTV sets this may be true or partially true,
as lesser Digital processing gives lesser Picture Quality
and an even lower prices...

If you want to approach that full effect of HDTV in all its glory,
buy a 60"/bigger non CRT Sony that can display all that 720p
or 1080i digital data.... But it will cost you more than
$2300.....

Also note that Processing the 720p signal takes more CPU 'Horsepower'
that 1080i.... Many of the sets today now offer full 720p
Tuner processing as HDTV has matured...



> Besides the widescreen, what am I getting? That's definitely not
> HDTV.

Full HDTV signal processing is now here.....
It's just that certain size HDTVs (as CRTs & and other technologies)
have a pixel or mask engineering trade off to make....

I find current Sony 34HS510 CRT pure HDTV Picture to be clear
with some WOW factor.... Some day the smaller sized
Picture display technologies will catch up to the HD Standards....
I sure would not want lesser HD standards....
But you may wish for 1080p IF compression methods do develop...


>
> Again, this is my understanding, and I could be wrong.
>
> Also, what do these CRT sets do with the 720p signal? Since they
> aren't native, they're either converting to 1080i (then subsequently
> down to 540i) and you're losing the progressive scan benefits, or
> they're converting down to 540p (480p?) and keeping the progressive.

If you have the tuner Horse Power & software available....
the Digital Signal Processing will do every thing plus
every thing in-between as you note IF there is a market....

> The latter sounds much better to me, except for now you have to scale
> the image, and will undoubtedly have some artifacts.

Analog or Digital upscaling can be a problem...
Down converting Digital sources for Analog sets is 'pretty good'.

>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've been scouring the
> internet for weeks, and can't come up with any answers...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:08:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

There is no "native resolution" for CRTs because they don't use discrete
elements.
I don't know where you are coming up with this 540
number. All the spec sheets clearly state 1080i display.
"Tim Watkins" <timandca@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:gb93u0hc8ehag6vofd98l4fetuormk39nh@4ax.com...
> Hey All,
>
> I've got some questions regarding the current offerings of HDTV.
> Specifically regarding direct view CRT based sets. I was looking at
> the Sony offerings (34HS420 model). In doing some research, it would
> appear to me that CRT sets can only draw 540 lines vertically. This
> appears to be a limitation of the CRT technology. So, what am I
> actually getting for the $1500? It doesn't natively support 720p, and
> the support for 1080i seems to be just downconverting to 540i.
> Besides the widescreen, what am I getting? That's definitely not
> HDTV.
>
> Again, this is my understanding, and I could be wrong.
>
> Also, what do these CRT sets do with the 720p signal? Since they
> aren't native, they're either converting to 1080i (then subsequently
> down to 540i) and you're losing the progressive scan benefits, or
> they're converting down to 540p (480p?) and keeping the progressive.
> The latter sounds much better to me, except for now you have to scale
> the image, and will undoubtedly have some artifacts.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've been scouring the
> internet for weeks, and can't come up with any answers...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
>
>
Related resources
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:23:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

CRTs have no native resolution, so there is no need to "scale" anything.
Most display whatever is transmitted, but usually convert standard TV to
480P or 1080i so the scanning lines are not visible. Some, like the $650
Sanyo at Walmart, tend to bend straight lines and blur a bit when the
brightness and contrast are set to max (default settings) but any CRT HDTV
set should be quite satisfactory in your home.
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 1:23:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

My question arises from the fact that CRT's have what's called an "aperture
grill". This aperture grill is there to direct the electrons to definite
points on the phosphor screen. So even though CRT's technically have no
native resolution, I do not believe that there's any way for a CRT to
reproduce 1080 vertical lines, nor the 1920 horizontal you'd need to get
true high definition. Also, I still cannot figure out what happens to a
720p signal when it enters the TV. I noticed a Philips directview model,
that can really only handle 480p and 1080i signals. The 720p would have to
go to one or the other.

Tim



"Gary Dorman" <garydorman@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:U9iEd.8292$F67.5303@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> CRTs have no native resolution, so there is no need to "scale" anything.
> Most display whatever is transmitted, but usually convert standard TV to
> 480P or 1080i so the scanning lines are not visible. Some, like the $650
> Sanyo at Walmart, tend to bend straight lines and blur a bit when the
> brightness and contrast are set to max (default settings) but any CRT HDTV
> set should be quite satisfactory in your home.
>
>
>
>
>
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 2:42:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

The old shadow masks which used dot triads indeed limit vertical resolution.
But sets with
an aperture grill the vertical stripes are continuous, so there is no
physical limit on the vertical
resolution.

A 34 inch diagonal 16:9 CRT measures about 30 inches across. Typical "dot
pitch" (old term)
on the new superfine pitch tubes is 0.35 mm. Doing the math 30x25.4/.35 =
2177 RGB sets
across the width of the tube.

The Sony CRT sets are excellent, and I would suggest not overanalyzing
numbers and start ENJOYING
HDTV with an old fashioned CRT that will still be working after more
expensive LCD sets have too
many dead pixels and plasma sets fall to about 1/2 brightness in a few
years.




"Tim Watkins" <timandca@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
news:fI6dnZFZ-JZPKXzcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> My question arises from the fact that CRT's have what's called an
> "aperture
> grill". This aperture grill is there to direct the electrons to definite
> points on the phosphor screen. So even though CRT's technically have no
> native resolution, I do not believe that there's any way for a CRT to
> reproduce 1080 vertical lines, nor the 1920 horizontal you'd need to get
> true high definition. Also, I still cannot figure out what happens to a
> 720p signal when it enters the TV. I noticed a Philips directview model,
> that can really only handle 480p and 1080i signals. The 720p would have
> to
> go to one or the other.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> "Gary Dorman" <garydorman@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> news:U9iEd.8292$F67.5303@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
>> CRTs have no native resolution, so there is no need to "scale" anything.
>> Most display whatever is transmitted, but usually convert standard TV to
>> 480P or 1080i so the scanning lines are not visible. Some, like the
>> $650
>> Sanyo at Walmart, tend to bend straight lines and blur a bit when the
>> brightness and contrast are set to max (default settings) but any CRT
>> HDTV
>> set should be quite satisfactory in your home.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
January 10, 2005 5:45:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I agree, to much sophmoric physics. All of the other technologies are
attempting to give the quality of a direct view set, and Sony sets the
standard here, especially the XBR version.

The other technologies are only valid if you don't like the weight of the
set (~200 lbs) or need a larger screen, otherwise CRT if the best picture
and price.

Good luck


"Frank Provasek" <frank@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:KjjEd.2288$C52.2154@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> The old shadow masks which used dot triads indeed limit vertical
resolution.
> But sets with
> an aperture grill the vertical stripes are continuous, so there is no
> physical limit on the vertical
> resolution.
>
> A 34 inch diagonal 16:9 CRT measures about 30 inches across. Typical "dot
> pitch" (old term)
> on the new superfine pitch tubes is 0.35 mm. Doing the math 30x25.4/.35
=
> 2177 RGB sets
> across the width of the tube.
>
> The Sony CRT sets are excellent, and I would suggest not overanalyzing
> numbers and start ENJOYING
> HDTV with an old fashioned CRT that will still be working after more
> expensive LCD sets have too
> many dead pixels and plasma sets fall to about 1/2 brightness in a few
> years.
>
>
>
>
> "Tim Watkins" <timandca@nospam.comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:fI6dnZFZ-JZPKXzcRVn-ug@comcast.com...
> > My question arises from the fact that CRT's have what's called an
> > "aperture
> > grill". This aperture grill is there to direct the electrons to
definite
> > points on the phosphor screen. So even though CRT's technically have no
> > native resolution, I do not believe that there's any way for a CRT to
> > reproduce 1080 vertical lines, nor the 1920 horizontal you'd need to get
> > true high definition. Also, I still cannot figure out what happens to a
> > 720p signal when it enters the TV. I noticed a Philips directview
model,
> > that can really only handle 480p and 1080i signals. The 720p would have
> > to
> > go to one or the other.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
> >
> > "Gary Dorman" <garydorman@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
> > news:U9iEd.8292$F67.5303@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> >> CRTs have no native resolution, so there is no need to "scale"
anything.
> >> Most display whatever is transmitted, but usually convert standard TV
to
> >> 480P or 1080i so the scanning lines are not visible. Some, like the
> >> $650
> >> Sanyo at Walmart, tend to bend straight lines and blur a bit when the
> >> brightness and contrast are set to max (default settings) but any CRT
> >> HDTV
> >> set should be quite satisfactory in your home.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 10:43:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Sony topped the commercial CRT world many years ago with its 400 line XBR
Wega series. Since then downwards spiral. Last higher resolution Sony CRTs
were a bust, expensive and unreliable. So, instead of improving, they
stopped to produce them. Do not attach yourself to Sony anymore, though they
have presently the best kick for the buck, the 42" rear projection LCD HDTV.
The bigger ones in this so called Grand Wega series have the same engine
that in the 42" machine. Result, weaker picture quality with the square of
the size difference of course.

Better to wait for the most promising LCoS technology based true HDTVs:
1080p, that is 1920x1080 resolution. They are in the corner already.


"Tim Watkins" <timandca@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
news:gb93u0hc8ehag6vofd98l4fetuormk39nh@4ax.com...
> Hey All,
>
> I've got some questions regarding the current offerings of HDTV.
> Specifically regarding direct view CRT based sets. I was looking at
> the Sony offerings (34HS420 model). In doing some research, it would
> appear to me that CRT sets can only draw 540 lines vertically. This
> appears to be a limitation of the CRT technology. So, what am I
> actually getting for the $1500? It doesn't natively support 720p, and
> the support for 1080i seems to be just downconverting to 540i.
> Besides the widescreen, what am I getting? That's definitely not
> HDTV.
>
> Again, this is my understanding, and I could be wrong.
>
> Also, what do these CRT sets do with the 720p signal? Since they
> aren't native, they're either converting to 1080i (then subsequently
> down to 540i) and you're losing the progressive scan benefits, or
> they're converting down to 540p (480p?) and keeping the progressive.
> The latter sounds much better to me, except for now you have to scale
> the image, and will undoubtedly have some artifacts.
>
> Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've been scouring the
> internet for weeks, and can't come up with any answers...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
>
>
Anonymous
January 14, 2005 11:37:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

lotus wrote:
>
> Sony topped the commercial CRT world many years ago with its 400 line XBR
> Wega series. Since then downwards spiral.

I still think Sony makes the finest CRT HDTVs....... Today !!



Last higher resolution Sony CRTs
> were a bust, expensive and unreliable.

Which Sony CRT HDTV models???? My Sony 34HS510 runs Superbly????
Yes it was more expensive....

So, instead of improving, they
> stopped to produce them.

Sony is Producing Nice HDTVs today, that have the Super WEGA digital
processing Guts !!!!! Makes for a nice Digital Picture...

Sony also build the 'Fine Mask' CRT set in both XS & XBR Models...

And the 34HS420 is just a cost reduction (less features) 34HS510...
Still has the 'Good WEGA' Guts....


Do not attach yourself to Sony anymore, though they
> have presently the best kick for the buck, the 42" rear projection LCD HDTV.

Yes I believe Sony Audio Receivers & Speakers may not be
'Leaders'....

However their HDTV CRT units are still top of the line...
CRT HDTVS... In my humble opinion... Yes, I own one..



> The bigger ones in this so called Grand Wega series have the same engine
> that in the 42" machine. Result, weaker picture quality with the square of
> the size difference of course.
>
> Better to wait for the most promising LCoS technology based true HDTVs:
> 1080p, that is 1920x1080 resolution. They are in the corner already.
>
> "Tim Watkins" <timandca@comcast.nospam.net> wrote in message
> news:gb93u0hc8ehag6vofd98l4fetuormk39nh@4ax.com...
> > Hey All,
> >
> > I've got some questions regarding the current offerings of HDTV.
> > Specifically regarding direct view CRT based sets. I was looking at
> > the Sony offerings (34HS420 model). In doing some research, it would
> > appear to me that CRT sets can only draw 540 lines vertically. This
> > appears to be a limitation of the CRT technology. So, what am I
> > actually getting for the $1500? It doesn't natively support 720p, and
> > the support for 1080i seems to be just downconverting to 540i.
> > Besides the widescreen, what am I getting? That's definitely not
> > HDTV.
> >
> > Again, this is my understanding, and I could be wrong.
> >
> > Also, what do these CRT sets do with the 720p signal? Since they
> > aren't native, they're either converting to 1080i (then subsequently
> > down to 540i) and you're losing the progressive scan benefits, or
> > they're converting down to 540p (480p?) and keeping the progressive.
> > The latter sounds much better to me, except for now you have to scale
> > the image, and will undoubtedly have some artifacts.
> >
> > Can anyone shed some light on this for me. I've been scouring the
> > internet for weeks, and can't come up with any answers...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tim
> >
> >
!