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X-Bit Labs review of the ATI 2900XT is it better than 8800?

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May 27, 2007 2:56:32 AM

Im looking at buying a new video card monday to replace a pair of 7800gt's in SLI ive been looking at the 8800gts gtx and 2900xt in most reviews the xt gets its butt kicked but in xbits newest review of it its holdin its own against the gtx and beating the gts. What gives did ati release a new driver or something?
a b U Graphics card
May 27, 2007 11:09:56 AM

No, these are still the 37.4 version. X-bit does a great job simply by including a better overall look at what a new card can do, shows sooo many games. The "new" drivers should be out soon, and these numbers are only going to improve. Im hoping several sites does a review, or at least a mini review, like some sites do anyways, for these new drivers
May 27, 2007 1:02:34 PM

If you have to upgrade now, go with an 8800GTX. But a word to the wise, It may be worth it to wait on upgrading for a few months[nod nod wink wink] Nvidia and ATI both are going to release a few surprises... If you upgrade now you'll kick yourself later...
Related resources
a b U Graphics card
May 27, 2007 1:14:22 PM

Im familiar with the 650/670 for ATI, what of nVidia? The 8900? And whats that to be like?
May 27, 2007 1:53:50 PM

You cant really say what the new cards are going to be like. Get the x2900xt, the drivers suck right n ow but they will get better and getting dx9 sli is not a good idea. Go for the ati, they have more potential than the 8800s. nVidia has a 6 month lead on drivers so if ati can still keep up on a broken software chassis then i would say a new set of drivers will do wonders. You can wait obviously and i think it will be better to but just remember that the top cards cost top dollar. You can wait and then get the lower one for less of course.
May 27, 2007 2:08:55 PM

Considering the timing of that review it would have been nice to see them use the newer drivers.
Though the 2900xt showed some great results it still fell down on some of the benches.
Such sporadic performance may suggest there is still opportunity for driver improvement. X-bit's own summary from the review says it best:
Quote:
As it can be seen, there are only a few cases when ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT can compete against the GeForce 8800 GTX (Battlefield 2142 , Far Cry , Splinter Cell: Double Agent , Command and Conquer 3 ). In 5 cases out of 19 our today’s hero either demonstrates unacceptably low results, or comes behind GeForce 8800 GTS. The latter never shows inappropriately low results, but in 7 cases out of 19 it comes third.

Unfortunately, ATI decided to load the code-named R600 GPU with only 16 texture filtering units and 16 render back ends, which limits performance in a number of games, which is sad, as the chip features 512-bit memory bus and can definitely offer exceptional performance with FSAA enabled.

AMD’s driver team also could act much better: ATI Radeon HD 2900 XT has rendering issues with Half-Life 2: ............................................

LINK


EDIT: I wasn't specifically responding to you jaydee, reply feature is messed up.
May 27, 2007 4:41:21 PM

whats the "wink wink hint hint" all about? is geforve and nvidia releasing new cards? wish at would make a 65nm 2900xt
May 27, 2007 4:51:26 PM

Quote:
is geforve and nvidia releasing new cards?


ummm...what?
May 27, 2007 5:48:38 PM

One thing you guys seem to overlook is the fact that AMD has had about the same amount of time to work on drivers as Nvidia. Their card was delay because of design and stability problems. The engineering examples were certainly good enough for driver development. These cards take years to develop and released version isn't very different than the engineering samples.

You guys thinking that drivers are going to make a huge performance are living fantasyland. It not going to happen. Besides they need to work on image quality more than performance at the moment.

Go for a 8800 GTS 320 $289. This round is not going to yield any stellar performers for DX10. Beside that there's the extreme lack of content and that wont change anytime soon.
May 27, 2007 6:46:16 PM

Quote:
is geforve and nvidia releasing new cards?


ummm...what?

:lol: 
May 27, 2007 11:17:05 PM

Yes but nVidia have had the card out there and working, and they have had feedback from the users... You can log more time by getting info back from the public than you can in a factory setting.

Hate all you want but i am still buying one and will use it for physics while you won't be able to do so with an nVidia... It's not a GPU anymore.

Oh and about the drivers... Why does it win in all the benchies where the drivers actually work?

Dude i cannot say for certain that they will help, but if they do expect to see some I told you so's in the form of a pm. Feel free to throw it in my face if I am wrong.

Oh and dude the AMD is the rotary engine, not nVidia.
May 28, 2007 12:17:36 AM

wow you guys are annoying, i ment nvidia and ati
May 28, 2007 1:53:47 AM

Quote:
Yes but nVidia have had the card out there and working, and they have had feedback from the users... You can log more time by getting info back from the public than you can in a factory setting.

Hate all you want but i am still buying one and will use it for physics while you won't be able to do so with an nVidia... It's not a GPU anymore.

Oh and about the drivers... Why does it win in all the benchies where the drivers actually work?

Dude i cannot say for certain that they will help, but if they do expect to see some I told you so's in the form of a pm. Feel free to throw it in my face if I am wrong.

Oh and dude the AMD is the rotary engine, not nVidia.


you're joking right?
like near 40-50% of the 8800 users were bitching for no drivers, no SLI support, no HDR, no AA in a lot of games, crashings..etc... o_O
so now you claim "they released something fully working"?
id say Vista is f*cking every driver developing work.
May 28, 2007 4:12:53 AM

yea, nvidia had some very bad drivers when 8800 released. it was so loong ago that most people dont remember. I would have to say ati 2900 drivers are a lot better at launch than nvidias
May 28, 2007 4:59:39 AM

Quote:
yea, nvidia had some very bad drivers when 8800 released. it was so loong ago that most people dont remember. I would have to say ati 2900 drivers are a lot better at launch than nvidias
I don't remember the Geforce 7900GTX outperforming the 8800GTX in ANY tests at launch, where the HD 2900XT sometimes falls behind the X1950XTX.
May 28, 2007 6:25:19 AM

Bring back the old avatar.... :D 

8900GTX should be 65nm refresh of 8800GTX possibly with a 512mbit memory bus, but this is largely speculation. I won't buy any AMD 80nm crap and the GTX is over prices atm so I am waiting personally.
a b U Graphics card
May 28, 2007 7:10:17 AM

Quote:
I don't remember the Geforce 7900GTX outperforming the 8800GTX in ANY tests at launch, where the HD 2900XT sometimes falls behind the X1950XTX.


Ah, but I do remember a handful of situations with the GTS being outperformed by the X1950XTX, check the old reviews, which would be similar to this situation.

That's not to say that the levels were exactly the same, but it is true that there were some areas where the GTS was slow out of the gate and considering the XT being the AMD's GTS, then that would be the comparison to look for (would a faster core and faster memory help the XTX in the areas it's beaten by the old XTX? We won't know until there is one to test, but likely by then the drivers will be better.

Considering the level of the boost that the GF8800 series got from drivers, it's definitely true that they improved greatly with age; however in some areas the HD2900XT has alot further to go than any of the GF8800s ever did to get up to acceptable performance.
May 28, 2007 7:50:41 AM

Quote:
No, these are still the 37.4 version. X-bit does a great job simply by including a better overall look at what a new card can do, shows sooo many games. The "new" drivers should be out soon, and these numbers are only going to improve. Im hoping several sites does a review, or at least a mini review, like some sites do anyways, for these new drivers


Wow, thanks from me and all of Tom's forum members for another one of your incredibly instructive comments since joining in June '06.

Funny how almost every single one of your 979 comments have been grossly pro-ati/amd, and particularly pro-2900 XT. Amazing how your insights are subley biased, but attemptedly don't go so far as to arouse suspicion. It also nearly defies belief how quickly you are able to jump on threads stating R600's many shortcomings.

I would quote your posts to illustrate your position, but I don't have the time, and educated forum regulars know what drivel you are shoveling.

You (and I say "you" in the plural, which you most probably are), are discusting. You are the viral reason these forums are no longer clean and an outlet for free, unfettered expression.

Don't think for a second that we are not on to you. In any respect, enjoy those checks from amd while they last.

This is all I have to say to you or will say.
May 28, 2007 8:11:46 AM

Quote:
You guys thinking that drivers are going to make a huge performance are living fantasyland. It not going to happen. Besides they need to work on image quality more than performance at the moment.

I beg to differ - driver redesign can lead to HUGE performance improvements. Matrox proved it in the G100/G200 days (which SUCKED when they came out, then proved that the hardware could match the competition with later driver revisions), and Nvidia did it too in the Geforce2/3 days - the 'ti' versions of those cards were identical to their previous incarnations in all points, except that they came with updated drivers which yielded a 40% performance increase in most cases.
I certainly remember my old RivaTNT card doubling its frame rate under Unreal when switching from its older 1.0 driver revision to the Geforce2 ti driver revision (Detonator 6 if I remember correctly).

Now before you start telling me that this was ages ago, please consider that the G80 and the R600 are radically new hardware designs, and as such drivers can be optimized for better performance - we won't know for sure until BOTH cards have a more mature driver out. Nvidia is having trouble with their Vista driver too (they do have better results than Ati for now), the only field where the G80 can be considered mature is DX9 and OpenGL under WinXP. As such, the jury is still out on Vista and DX10 performance.
a b U Graphics card
May 28, 2007 8:12:54 AM

LOL @ the Pot calling the Kettle black. :roll:
a b U Graphics card
May 28, 2007 8:13:42 AM

Quote:
No, these are still the 37.4 version. X-bit does a great job simply by including a better overall look at what a new card can do, shows sooo many games. The "new" drivers should be out soon, and these numbers are only going to improve. Im hoping several sites does a review, or at least a mini review, like some sites do anyways, for these new drivers


Wow, thanks from me and all of Tom's forum members for another one of your incredibly instructive comments since joining in June '06.

Funny how almost every single one of your 979 comments have been grossly pro-ati/amd, and particularly pro-2900 XT. Amazing how your insights are subley biased, but attemptedly don't go so far as to arouse suspicion. It also nearly defies belief how quickly you are able to jump on threads stating R600's many shortcomings.

I would quote your posts to illustrate your position, but I don't have the time, and educated forum regulars know what drivel you are shoveling.

You (and I say "you" in the plural, which you most probably are), are discusting. You are the viral reason these forums are no longer clean and an outlet for free, unfettered expression.

Don't think for a second that we are not on to you. In any respect, enjoy those checks from amd while they last.

This is all I have to say to you or will say. OK, guess you missed this one just earlier, or others if you care to look. Have some virus
Quote:
Anytime you upgrade your monitor youve just made a desicion thats going to outlast several generations of graphics cards. That being said, the GTS is a great card for now, and for a while to come. No DX10 games to worry about, and if some come sooner than later, the GTS will cover them. Go with the monitor upgrade, you wont be sorry
_________________
Thats my quote coming from here http://forumz.tomshardware.com/hardware/8800gtx-19-CRT-... Youd never make it as a lawyer, and as for "us" I think you mean me. I have 1 account here, thats it. If you dont like my posts about ATI then ignore them as you obviosly do the ones for nVidia
May 28, 2007 8:17:36 AM

Harmattan got a little owned.
I guess that's what you get for being hysterical.

Remember folks, being hysterical = bad.
May 28, 2007 8:21:27 AM

well all the tests were in Dx9 performance.
atleast untill next few months we would not know how ati and nvidia fare in dx10
we may have a few surprises then :o 
May 28, 2007 8:51:05 AM

Drivers do matter, ever played KOTOR on a 9600xt with too old or too new drivers? Ever played doom on old nVidia drivers? We will just have to wait and see if they really make a difference, but i am going to be optimistic cause my money is going to ATi pretty soon. Personally i am convinced from the look of those benchmark that a card that is faster than the x1950xtx cannot be beaten by it unless it has something VERY wrong with the drivers.
May 28, 2007 11:46:31 AM

Assuming you mean 8800GTS.
To answer the original question - YES.
It is also costlier, is it better value for money? - If you're going to play at resolutions of 1600x1200 or above then - YES.
May 28, 2007 3:36:21 PM

Quote:
Im looking at buying a new video card monday to replace a pair of 7800gt's in SLI ive been looking at the 8800gts gtx and 2900xt in most reviews the xt gets its butt kicked but in xbits newest review of it its holdin its own against the gtx and beating the gts. What gives did ati release a new driver or something?



Yea ... here we go again .... lame excuses for AMD . AMD lost the kickass CPU battle .... they fell flat on their video card releases .... and all you hear is buy an amd card and hope for better drivers ! Christ ... everyone hoped for a better video card and that got no one anywhere ! I'm quite sure nvidia will keep releasing better drivers as they have in years past . All you saw on here was "what if amd's are faster - better - and cheaper when they come out ? " Well guess what they were'nt any of the stated before remarks . They sucked ! :lol:  Remember this though .... none of them can really be rated at all until DX10 games and programs are used for the benchmarks ratings for any of them . I need a video upgrade big time but am holding off until CRYSIS is released and tested with all of them and believe me that will tell the tale ! As far as now ... get real NVIDIA is kicking ATI's A*S in DX9 performance !!!! Intel core2 duo is blowing AMD cpu's away . Both companies will release new drivers .... but as of now ATI needs them or probably a better video card !
May 28, 2007 3:55:58 PM

Exactly, I think it's really ignorant, to say "get this card and hope for better drivers", what IF better drivers don't come out?, why not buy the best card ATM between those two?, most of you people say, that the r600 might outperform the 8xxx series in dx10, but when is crysis gonna come out?, in 6 months? around christmas? when the new nvidia cards come out?, I still think it's a little silly, to recommend a card that doesn't do better than the competition card on a base of "with the drivers it will get better". my 2 cents.
May 28, 2007 4:20:25 PM

Quote:
Exactly, I think it's really ignorant, to say "get this card and hope for better drivers", what IF better drivers don't come out?, why not buy the best card ATM between those two?, most of you people say, that the r600 might outperform the 8xxx series in dx10, but when is crysis gonna come out?, in 6 months? around christmas? when the new nvidia cards come out?, I still think it's a little silly, to recommend a card that doesn't do better than the competition card on a base of "with the drivers it will get better". my 2 cents.


Conversely, it is silly to buy the card which is performing better now, if the other card could destroy it next month with a driver update and/or in the next iteration of direct x.

Ultimately, this is a REALLY bad time to be buying a graphics card. It will be much more beneficial to sit on the fence for a couple more months and see what happens. Right now, people just don't know how things will turn out, months, or even weeks, down the line.
May 28, 2007 4:31:56 PM

Quote:
Exactly, I think it's really ignorant, to say "get this card and hope for better drivers", what IF better drivers don't come out?, why not buy the best card ATM between those two?, most of you people say, that the r600 might outperform the 8xxx series in dx10, but when is crysis gonna come out?, in 6 months? around christmas? when the new nvidia cards come out?, I still think it's a little silly, to recommend a card that doesn't do better than the competition card on a base of "with the drivers it will get better". my 2 cents.


Conversely, it is silly to buy the card which is performing better now, if the other card could destroy it next month with a driver update and/or in the next iteration of direct x.

Ultimately, this is a REALLY bad time to be buying a graphics card. It will be much more beneficial to sit on the fence for a couple more months and see what happens. Right now, people just don't know how things will turn out, months, or even weeks, down the line.

you said it... could
May 28, 2007 5:21:46 PM

But, regardless of the drivers thet "may" improve performance, isn't there any concern that it is an extremely hot running card and the fan by most reviews is quite loud and you cannot OC the card without that damn 8 pin connector which most people don't have on their psu. I don't know, the ati card may end up being better but the other issues just don't add up to being a good product in my eyes. Though I'm sure when the move to 65nm happens you will see these problems go away.
May 28, 2007 5:59:43 PM

most people cant buy video cards every year, so when they buy a card they want to have the best card for the long run. These ar ethe people that can wait for drivers to eventually bring the card ahead. when is ati bringing their 65nm cards anyways? Also another game with sx10 that has an actuall release date is Age of Conan, can test these cards on it if crysis does not release before it.
a b U Graphics card
May 28, 2007 6:41:38 PM

Quote:

The correct answer to the OP instead of your ati fanboish post jaydeejohn would be NO, the 2900XT is not better than the 8800GTX.


Actually that would not be the correct answer, because that's not the question the OP asked.

He didn't ask if the XT were better than the GTX, he commented his observation that it was 'holding it's own' against the GTX, and asked if it was new drivers.

So seriously don't advise others how to answer the question when you yourself got it wrong. :roll:
May 28, 2007 7:45:23 PM

Well the ATI has now card that is very much driver dependable according many sources, but can they do better drivers for all games... no most propably... Can they bring good drivers for Oblivion, Crysis and so on... most propably, but how much they can improve.. no one can tell, but everytime when completely new game comes out because Nvid has more raw power, without driver optimization... When ATI has to do a lot of tricks when they dry to feed their more complex prosessing units...
May 28, 2007 9:15:51 PM

after reading a lot of new posts, id say spartas = ROBSLI again, but being a bit more calm with the spartas account, cause if he continues with his bull, he will get banned again...
May 28, 2007 9:46:49 PM

Quote:
after reading a lot of new posts, id say spartas = ROBSLI again, but being a bit more calm with the spartas account, cause if he continues with his bull, he will get banned again...

It's hard to say, there's the same nV fanboydom and overuse of the :roll: emoticon, but I think ROBSLI knew that ATI owned the previous few generations, and might have been an ex-ATI fanboy converted to nV when ATI didn't deliver in time this generation. Also, even when he wasn't spewing insults his posts were a lot shorter than spartas's. Or maybe he was inspired by TGGA's "great walls of text"? (if so he missed the part where TGGA's "walls" are full of good information). Of course, he could just be faking well this time.
a b U Graphics card
May 28, 2007 10:19:19 PM

Thankfully I was doing some training today, only popped in for a brief moment and noticed the moemntum of that other thread was gone.

A good thing in many ways since I don't have time for Rob or a Rob clone.
May 28, 2007 10:26:18 PM

AW DUDE! I just saw your HD freedom! YESSSSSSS!

I bet rob is not too happy about that one...
May 29, 2007 3:13:51 AM

Quote:
Exactly, I think it's really ignorant, to say "get this card and hope for better drivers", what IF better drivers don't come out?, why not buy the best card ATM between those two?, most of you people say, that the r600 might outperform the 8xxx series in dx10, but when is crysis gonna come out?, in 6 months? around christmas? when the new nvidia cards come out?, I still think it's a little silly, to recommend a card that doesn't do better than the competition card on a base of "with the drivers it will get better". my 2 cents.


Conversely, it is silly to buy the card which is performing better now, if the other card could destroy it next month with a driver update and/or in the next iteration of direct x.

Ultimately, this is a REALLY bad time to be buying a graphics card. It will be much more beneficial to sit on the fence for a couple more months and see what happens. Right now, people just don't know how things will turn out, months, or even weeks, down the line.

you said it... could

ARM ....totally agree ... that's why I'm sitting here sweating performance on my games now and NVIDIA's are at the moment smoking my DX9 ATI card . Believe me it's hard not to go right out and plunk bucks on one but I keep telling myself ... wait until DX10 games are out .... at least 2 of them and the best is shown in tests . It's not only whether it's going to be NVIDA or ATI .... it's which one of either is more bang for the bucks and whether SLI or dual ATI's of 2 smaller cards at about the same cost will be max . No one can tell you that until full DX10 software is out and tested ... So the arguing now is totally useless . If I'm gonna spend mega dollars for video I want the setup to be darn good for a good while . Lord it's gonna cost almost as much for video as a whole system ... MB - CPU - MEMORY - HARD DRIVE - DVD PLAYER - CASE - POWER SUPPLY - !!!! They both are putting the screws to us ... you know that ! I have this bad feeling the new games will demand so much we'll have to spend MEGA bucks for top performance . Most monitors ... even my 22" lcd is'nt capable of the higher limits they'll be throwing . Besides that when you're playing a fast paced shotem up game who stops to see how many veins are in a leaf ??? But then it goes back to game speed and performance does'nt it ? .. :roll: And please stop the "what ifs and maybe it'll be better or or this one or that one maybe will be .... and surely all the "new drivers may " maybe if we all bought the winning lottery ticket we would'nt even be on here ... LOL
a b U Graphics card
May 29, 2007 4:18:59 AM

Explain to me how it's a 'What if / Maybe someday' if the OP is saying that in his view "its holdin its own against the gtx and beating the gts" , doesn't sound like he's talking about waiting for it to gain performance, for him it's already and interesting candidate tohim based this review.

His question was whether it was drivers that are different, and the reply was "no, these are the 8.374 launch drivers (although it wasn't mentioned some earlier reviewers used 8.373 and 8.372 early drivers) and that there were new 8.38 drivers that should only make the situation better (as we've obseved in other reviews).

Now my question is pretty simple, what does the 'hope for better drivers' statement have to do with the the OP's statements or the initial reply, other than to take it out of context? Is there an opposing countervaling view that performance will worsen singnificantly?
May 29, 2007 4:24:49 PM

I dont think that there is a view out there that says that driver revisions for the ATI cards will worsen performance, but it has happened in the past as I can remember with my experiences with the 9700 pro that I had and it seemed like each driver update I did, my performance got worse, so I had to keep reinstalling the original drivers that came with my card.
I agree with you that this thread seems to be getting out of context on this point.
I still dont agree with the opinion because I know how this crap goes with drivers that are a stop-gap to increase performance, but it's only cosmetic, with the major bugs still there in the drivers. ATI is falling all over themselves with these new drivers and has released 3 this month alone. My question is this: if it only took them a month to get the performance increases that they've got so far, WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY DOING FOR 6 MONTHS?!?!?!?!??! :roll: 8O
Is it the customer feedback loop that's increasing their turnaround time for their drivers or is it that they werent working on the drivers before, just trying to make everything work physically on the card? I dont understand what the hell ATI was doing during those 6 months.
May 30, 2007 8:56:42 PM

LOL some of this stuff is just to silly. If you really think about it .. you would be waiting forever for that NEXT card.. Anyway.. about X-bit..and one game "S.T.A.L.K.E.R" I just emailed them because I tested it a the same rez 1600x1200" with the same settings and it NEVER got below 28 and the highest was 48+. I thought I was useing 7.38 r7 drivers lol but I am using 8.370.4. I think thats the same as them.. Whats even worse is my system is slower than theirs. Now I do alot of testing.. mostly Microsoft.. but it just shows you, you cant believe all the sites and what THEY get.

I believe X-bit did a fair review but why mine is so different I have no idea. Nothing is overclocked. For now if you turn off DXT textures then HL2 there is no fog problem. Its like reading where they say the card is SOOOOO hot.. WTF is wrong with mine then? Lowest is 49 highest is 83... some are lucky .. some are not. And i fyou dont like ATI great.. if you love NV great.. I could care less.
May 30, 2007 9:33:00 PM

Quote:
You guys thinking that drivers are going to make a huge performance are living fantasyland.


Uninstall your current gpu drivers and then tell us if it makes a HUGE difference.
May 30, 2007 9:55:58 PM

Quote:
Explain to me how it's a 'What if / Maybe someday' if the OP is saying that in his view "its holdin its own against the gtx and beating the gts" , doesn't sound like he's talking about waiting for it to gain performance, for him it's already and interesting candidate tohim based this review.

His question was whether it was drivers that are different, and the reply was "no, these are the 8.374 launch drivers (although it wasn't mentioned some earlier reviewers used 8.373 and 8.372 early drivers) and that there were new 8.38 drivers that should only make the situation better (as we've obseved in other reviews).

Now my question is pretty simple, what does the 'hope for better drivers' statement have to do with the the OP's statements or the initial reply, other than to take it out of context? Is there an opposing countervaling view that performance will worsen singnificantly?


I'd disagree with the OP's view that R600 is holding its own agianst 8800GTX. Maybe the one review says it is, but if you look at all the different reviews on the internet it seems pretty clear it really isn't.

I'll admit I'm very biassed towards nVidia and Intel to the point I'd probably never buy any AMD/ATI product. On strong reason for me is any GPU I buy at least has to include good Linux drivers which is something AMD have never got right. But I value AMD/ATI's competition at least to keep Intel/Nvidia challenged.

ATI/AMD have to really release some much better products soon as its probably only hardcore ATI/AMD fanbois that are buying their top-end stuff now as its not even close to being performance/feature-competitive with nVidia/Intel top-end products.

If this keeps up nVidia and Intel will stop being driven to innovate and all their products will get even more expensive which is bad for everyone.
May 30, 2007 10:53:40 PM

Quote:
I dont think that there is a view out there that says that driver revisions for the ATI cards will worsen performance, but it has happened in the past as I can remember with my experiences with the 9700 pro that I had and it seemed like each driver update I did, my performance got worse, so I had to keep reinstalling the original drivers that came with my card.


I ran newest driver revs on my 9700pro from day one and had maybe one or two drivers drip perf a bit only to gain it back (with change) on the next one. NEVER did I revert to original drivers as I had more than enough perf on mine and no issues. (even with ccc) That card STILL runs in my secondary system like a champ. Dunno what problems you were having...
May 30, 2007 10:59:28 PM

Quote:
Considering the level of the boost that the GF8800 series got from drivers, it's definitely true that they improved greatly with age; however in some areas the HD2900XT has alot further to go than any of the GF8800s ever did to get up to acceptable performance.


interesting thing I saw in this info here.

"PCGH: How exactly are you utilizing the functions of Direct X 10? Epic: Unreal Tournament 3 will ship with full DX10 support, with multi-sampling being the biggest visible benefit of the new graphics interface. Additionally, with DX10 under Vista we have the possibility to use the video memory more efficiently, to be able to display textures with a higher grade of detail as it would be possible with the DX9 path of Vista. Most effects of UT3 are more bound to the fillrate than to basic features like geometry processing. That's why DX10 has a great impact on performance, while we mostly forgo the integration of new features."

After reading the whole post on that... I am a huge UT fan, and have loved all of epic's games to date. It has been true for a while now that ATI and Nv are going in slightly different directions, and I was thinking that ATI was picking the right direction... now that thinking may be skewed by what will almost certainly be the most prolific licensed engine of the "current" generation of games.

The cards are becoming more polarized on what games you play... the likes of oblivion doing better with shader heavy cards, and Unreal3 taking the texture/fill heavy route.

things that make you go hmm...
a b U Graphics card
May 30, 2007 11:56:08 PM

Quote:
LOL some of this stuff is just to silly. If you really think about it .. you would be waiting forever for that NEXT card.. Anyway..


Yep which is why people need to do reasearch and then buy during the good peak periods, we tend to know when they are here. I only advise people to wait under two circumstances; a) money is a concern and their longer term goals (talking a card that needs to last 2-3+ years) would be better served by waiting for a specific known entity (I think there's a group of people I'd put in that category right now for the 65nm 256bit card candidates coming from AMD and nV. b) it's just around the launch period of a new card and we're talking just weeks for information of unknowns and performance relationships. Those are the only two reasons I would ever recommend waiting, otherwise I say do your research and buy the best card you can that suits your needs from what you know at that moment, and then never look back.

Quote:
but it just shows you, you cant believe all the sites and what THEY get.


Exactly which is why I read usually 30-50 reviews per major card launch, especially when new architecture is involved. No single review has the ability to look at the situation from as many angles as all of them combined. Xbit does an awesome job of testing alot of situations, but there's still issues, like the no AA in Oblivion with HDR issue, both companies require it forced in drivers, so I didn't like that they didn't attempt it. But like you say no one is perfect, and I never expect any review to have all the answers.

Quote:
I believe X-bit did a fair review but why mine is so different I have no idea. Nothing is overclocked. For now if you turn off DXT textures then HL2 there is no fog problem.


Well and the fog issue was the same one that the GF8800 series experienced too, so to me that's definitely a target fix for drivers. I suspect that to be resolved quickly.

Quote:
Its like reading where they say the card is SOOOOO hot.. WTF is wrong with mine then? Lowest is 49 highest is 83... some are lucky .. some are not.


And it seems to depend on case ambient temps too, alot of the people showing off high temps in Rivatuner screenies also have Ambient temps in the 60-70C, WTF did you expect as a VPU temp with that kind of ambient?
And it seems review bounce aroundswith temps with the HD2900XT at or below the GTS, to well above the Ultra. IMO I think that has alot to do with what's being fed into the HSF, if it's hot air across the copper, it's not going to be effective despite having of ton of CFM, but make it cooler air and the VPU should stay fairly cool. Also that's not the only story either. The X1900XT was hotter than the GF7900, but it was the GF7900 that were notorious for crashing due to heat related stability concerns both on the GPU and board. Now if the HD2900XT runs fine at 200C and all of the excess heat is going out of the case, I don't know why it matters, other than it would definitely heat up your room. But for the card itself, it's not too important unless you plan on a single loop water system with limited radiator. Then I'd worry alot about heat generated from the chip, not just lame temp readings in most reviews.

Quote:
And i fyou dont like ATI great.. if you love NV great.. I could care less.


And the agnostic approach is best, read all you can with an open mind, pick up the nuances of what seems out of place from review to review, and then make a rational decision regardless of MFR.

That's the best policy to ensure your money is well spent.\
a b U Graphics card
May 31, 2007 12:07:12 AM

Quote:

I'd disagree with the OP's view that R600 is holding its own agianst 8800GTX. Maybe the one review says it is, but if you look at all the different reviews on the internet it seems pretty clear it really isn't.


Well I'd say once again that depends on the situation, like your linux example there are many situations where it notonly holds it's own but outpaces the GTX and even Ultra. But yes those are rare, but like Linux, for some people those cases may be the deciding facotr.

And for me, I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with the OP's statement about the XT v GTX, but the situations I was commenting on, weren't even close to being that objective, and instead added some spin to the thread and replied to Jaydejohn as if he was saying something to sway to OP in an unrealistic way that would be any different from you simply saying you disagree with the OP. Jaydeejohn's reply essentially was agreement, and advising him that no those ar old drivers, so hey could be better.

That wa my issue.

Personally I'm pretty platform agnostic, I'm action specific though. And like you I look for my needs and meet them.

I see no benefit in a Turion for my needs right now, some I'm going Napa/SantaRosa, I am however intrigued by the HD2K's video features, GPGPU features, and some of their gaming features. But since my value goes 2D>>>>Video>>>Gaming>GPGPU for what matters most, then I'm already leaning towards a solution, but I'm also keeping my options open by reading both.

More people need to do that IMO, and less worrying of the sticker their rig will have or free t-shirt they'll get with purchase. If I had my way I'd be getting a Matrox because to me they didn't have anywhere near the issues as the others from an 'action specific' point of view (and from top notch first hand experience point of view), but Matrox is virtually out of the market, so you move on and buy what's best for the money at doing the tasks you want them to do.
a b U Graphics card
May 31, 2007 12:27:19 AM

Quote:

interesting thing I saw in this info here.


Yeah I saw that too, I'm gonna send you another interview among a few I've been seeing recently, that have changed my view on how devs are going to employ DX10 in early games, and while Sweeny et al's words are interesting, it's the complete opposite direction of what they and everyone else was espousing last year and before that leading up to DX10. The texture fill-rate was not the limiting factor in those discussions for anyone but a single person who wasn't going the DX10 path (except the XNA portion for X360) and was the lone voice in the wilderness going against the norm (and got a few onverts on the way), and that was Carmack with his talk of MegaTextures.

I think alot will depend on the games and their environments, I'm not surprised that UT3 will be texture heavy, all previous incarnations were about texture quality not thing's like vertex shader heavy foliage, fog, etc. Whereas a game like Crysis or FSX has the potential to flip the scneraio and it wouldn't really on expansive textures so much as efficient texture and then the use of geometry shaders and buffer renders/write-outs to create scenery. So I think there's still the two paths, but the annoying thing is that it seems that the second path will be a tacked on model which doesn't exploit it the way it should be (efficiency being key) increasing workload not being an effective replacement to reduce it.
BTW, I'm not surprised that Epic is ging the texture route considering their major partner, kinda like a few of the D3 decisions.

Quote:
after reading the whole post on that... I am a huge UT fan, and have loved all of epic's games to date. It has been true for a while now that ATI and Nv are going in slightly different directions, and I was thinking that ATI was picking the right direction... now that thinking may be skewed by what will almost certainly be the most prolific licensed engine of the "current" generation of games.


I agree, like HL2 and D3 it will be a stepping stone for many other games, an already is. Both companies need to ensure their architectures can play to the major models coming out (Crysis-Cryengine2 and UT3/UE3) so that they aren't left at a base functionality dissadvantage.

Quote:
The cards are becoming more polarized on what games you play... the likes of oblivion doing better with shader heavy cards, and Unreal3 taking the texture/fill heavy route.


Well Oblvion you can also push into the texture heavy realm with mods, but I agree, there are two different methods, as I mention about Crysis I think it will be a repeat of the HL2 D3 era where thos two different paths sort of outline the way ahead with only a few people straying far, like the X2-X3 reunion exceptions.

Quote:
things that make you go hmm...


Yeah and when Carmack first mentioned mega textures that when I first strated saying Hmm, ecause really it seems the complete opposite direction of what they were all pumping before about more efficient models and easier meshes, to achieve far more complex results without the overhead. This seems to simply increase the texture load without much imporvement. And like we see with the 4Kx4K texture mods on Oblivion, that doesn't giv you widely playable benefits where the lower end cards can get a similar experience. It make me wonder about the playability of the GF8600/HD2600 options I'm considering for myself i the laptop, but really since gaming is about a 20% decision factor for me, I'm not about to go above those power/heat considerations just to be able to crank the settings for a few games. Of course I will be in the minority. I was just hoping for better from our early DX10 games.

PS: I'm a big UT fan too, and along with Oblivion/Morrowind, UT2K4 is the only thing that keep resident space on my HD from computer to computer. So I suspect UT3 will become a resident too.
May 31, 2007 2:26:21 AM

Ape, cleeve, paul know more about gpu's than anyone i know. So STFU! :twisted:
a b U Graphics card
May 31, 2007 2:36:47 AM

Quote:

interesting thing I saw in this info here.


Yeah I saw that too, I'm gonna send you another interview among a few I've been seeing recently, that have changed my view on how devs are going to employ DX10 in early games, and while Sweeny et al's words are interesting, it's the complete opposite direction of what they and everyone else was espousing last year and before that leading up to DX10. The texture fill-rate was not the limiting factor in those discussions for anyone but a single person who wasn't going the DX10 path (except the XNA portion for X360) and was the lone voice in the wilderness going against the norm (and got a few onverts on the way), and that was Carmack with his talk of MegaTextures.

I think alot will depend on the games and their environments, I'm not surprised that UT3 will be texture heavy, all previous incarnations were about texture quality not thing's like vertex shader heavy foliage, fog, etc. Whereas a game like Crysis or FSX has the potential to flip the scneraio and it wouldn't really on expansive textures so much as efficient texture and then the use of geometry shaders and buffer renders/write-outs to create scenery. So I think there's still the two paths, but the annoying thing is that it seems that the second path will be a tacked on model which doesn't exploit it the way it should be (efficiency being key) increasing workload not being an effective replacement to reduce it.
BTW, I'm not surprised that Epic is ging the texture route considering their major partner, kinda like a few of the D3 decisions.

Quote:
after reading the whole post on that... I am a huge UT fan, and have loved all of epic's games to date. It has been true for a while now that ATI and Nv are going in slightly different directions, and I was thinking that ATI was picking the right direction... now that thinking may be skewed by what will almost certainly be the most prolific licensed engine of the "current" generation of games.


I agree, like HL2 and D3 it will be a stepping stone for many other games, an already is. Both companies need to ensure their architectures can play to the major models coming out (Crysis-Cryengine2 and UT3/UE3) so that they aren't left at a base functionality dissadvantage.

Quote:
The cards are becoming more polarized on what games you play... the likes of oblivion doing better with shader heavy cards, and Unreal3 taking the texture/fill heavy route.


Well Oblvion you can also push into the texture heavy realm with mods, but I agree, there are two different methods, as I mention about Crysis I think it will be a repeat of the HL2 D3 era where thos two different paths sort of outline the way ahead with only a few people straying far, like the X2-X3 reunion exceptions.

Quote:
things that make you go hmm...


Yeah and when Carmack first mentioned mega textures that when I first strated saying Hmm, ecause really it seems the complete opposite direction of what they were all pumping before about more efficient models and easier meshes, to achieve far more complex results without the overhead. This seems to simply increase the texture load without much imporvement. And like we see with the 4Kx4K texture mods on Oblivion, that doesn't giv you widely playable benefits where the lower end cards can get a similar experience. It make me wonder about the playability of the GF8600/HD2600 options I'm considering for myself i the laptop, but really since gaming is about a 20% decision factor for me, I'm not about to go above those power/heat considerations just to be able to crank the settings for a few games. Of course I will be in the minority. I was just hoping for better from our early DX10 games.

PS: I'm a big UT fan too, and along with Oblivion/Morrowind, UT2K4 is the only thing that keep resident space on my HD from computer to computer. So I suspect UT3 will become a resident too.


Ape does every single one of your post have to be a book? :roll: Everything you say is just jumbled up crap in a pathetic attempt at trying to make it appear that you are intelligent. :lol: 


I mean honestly, I bust out laughing before I even get through with a paragraph of yours because before you can even get to the end of all the jibberish that you write you have already changed topics about 5 times and by the time you do make it to the end you cant even remember WTF it was you were saying in the first place :roll:



You may not realize it either but a lot of the guys over at xtremesystems.org get a big ass kick out of you and lots of laughs :lol:  Sometimes, and in most of the Apes posts, alot of words are not only edjucational/informational but also to enlighten people. I suggest you read this http://books.google.com/books?id=YD4SAAAAIAAJ&dq=The+co...
!