Line conditioning (more newbie questions)

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"mb" <relax@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c59ef91593efe10989690@news.east.cox.net...
> Forgive me if this subject has been covered ad nauseum, but as delivery
> day for my new CRT RP HD monitor draws near, I'd like to have everything
> ready in terms of cabling. Obviously I'll be plugging the set and
> components into a quality surge supressor, but I was wondering if the
> "line conditioning" connections for the coax coming from the wall then
> to the digital HD/DVR set-top box are worth using or even including in
> my purchase? Instinctively I shy away from extra points of connections
> for fear they will cause a weak link and degrade the signal. Thanks for
> any thoughts.

Use them or not, it shouldn't matter. With digital, you either get a signal
or you don't. Instead of static or imperfections, the worst you are likely
to see is dropouts now and then, but if you subscribe to cable, you should
be used to that anyway. heh

You might as well use them, but if you really want my suggestion, try taking
your 'quality' surge suppressor back, use the money for a couple very cheap
power strips, and spend the rest on something more useful, like a UPS for
your DVR so if the power goes out, your shows will still be recorded. (also
is handy for cordless phones)

So-called 'quality' surge suppressors use the same components as cheapo
units, usually just a cap and a couple resistors, and they do wear out,
meaning that in a couple years you'll have a plain old power strip that
looks like a quality surge suppressor. It doesn't matter how pretty, heavy,
or shiny those things are either.

The most amusing thing is the Monster Cable power strip, which is supposed
to do all these great things with your power for about $200. For that
amount of money, and using solid and proven electrical principles, you can
get a dedicated circuit run from your 'fuse' box straight to the wall where
your fancy equipment resides. This will give you 'cleaner' power, do the
most to protect your gear from remote lightning and brownouts (which can
affect a single circuit in your home and destroy your stuff), and lesson the
amount of extension cords and power strips you need, further 'cleaning' your
power.

Anyway, as for your original question, if your cable/satellite system was
installed properly, you don't need that extra 'protection', or the extra
cable this thing probably didn't come with.

Pagan

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

If you are buying a "quality surge supressor", then you
might as well by a Monster protector. Might as well be
scammed by the best. A protector adjacent to electronics can
even contribute to damage of those electronics. It does not
even claim to protect from the type of transient that
typically damages electronics. It hopes you will not learn
that different types of transients exist.

What are you going to "line condition". A line conditioner
can only attenuate certain frequencies. Which frequencies do
you want to attenuate? IOW what good signals do you want to
eliminate? Attenuating signals is what a "line conditioner"
will do.

If you want the installation to installed correctly the
first time, then the single point earth ground must already
exist and already make a 'less than 10 foot' connection to
phone and AC electric 'whole house' protectors. Yes- phone
company provides a 'whole house' protector for free. But
cable will require no protector. Cable gets same protection
by first dropping down to the single point earth ground,
making a very short wire connection to that earth ground, then
rising back up to enter the building. They cannot do this
(must install compromised protection) if you have not
installed a single point ground.

The most common source of destructive transients are those
wires highest on poles that connect that transient directly to
your electronics. As trader has properly posted: you want a
'whole house' protector on AC mains that makes a 'less than 10
foot' connection to that earth ground.

The plug-in protector costs more and provides no effective
protection. Read their own specs for the so many missing
facts. Where do they claim protection for each type of
transient? Where do they provide a dedicated connection to or
even discuss single point earth ground? No wonder it
typically also has too few joules.

Learn from another's damage even though he had a plug-in
protector:
"network card and modem not working" on 3 Sept 2003 in
newsgroup microsoft.public.windowsme.hardware at
http://tinyurl.com/5h82o
which in turn cites another discussion on technical details.

mb wrote:
> Forgive me if this subject has been covered ad nauseum, but as delivery
> day for my new CRT RP HD monitor draws near, I'd like to have everything
> ready in terms of cabling. Obviously I'll be plugging the set and
> components into a quality surge supressor, but I was wondering if the
> "line conditioning" connections for the coax coming from the wall then
> to the digital HD/DVR set-top box are worth using or even including in
> my purchase? Instinctively I shy away from extra points of connections
> for fear they will cause a weak link and degrade the signal. Thanks for
> any thoughts.
>
> mb

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I appreciate everyone's input. Would living in a large multi-unit
apartment complex where filtering the main coming into my unit not being
an option alter any of these points?

mb

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Usually the services in large apartment buildings are
properly earthed. Some have a utility transformer right at
the service entrance that could mean all AC electric lines are
earthed. Unfortunately, you don't know.

If the building is steel and concrete, then steel I-beam
that a breaker box is mounted or connected to is earth
ground. A 'whole house' protector at that mains breaker box
would then provide effective protection.

Cable, if properly installed, also first connects to same
single point ground before entering building. Sometimes the
apartment management cannot be bothered to let it be installed
properly. Its not their electronics.

mb wrote:
> I appreciate everyone's input. Would living in a large multi-unit
> apartment complex where filtering the main coming into my unit not being
> an option alter any of these points?
>
> mb

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

oooh i love those warrantees that claim they will pay for damages if
your equipment is damaged by a surge thru their surge protector...read
it very carefully.they all say the same thing..basically they will pay
if you use the surge protector within its rated spec...now theres the
trick..see with in its rated spec the equipment wont be damaged and so
they dont have a problem.if the surge is higher than their rated spec
which pretty much means anything that gets thru and damages your stuff
then it gives them an out not to pay if they choose....voltage spikes
can run pretty high and no strip will stop a lightning surge on a power
system....

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

a dedicated circuit has nothing to do with protecting from transient
voltage spikes on that line .a lightning strike or downed utility pole
will still fry your equipment.a ups either off line or on-line style
will still pass thru sizable spikes as even on the on line type has
monitoring circuits that are connected to the power lines.at all
times....ups systems have the same line filtering as most line
conditioners....

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

i agree lightning is the biggest danger and theres no stopping that....
theres 3 basic kinds of ups systems.
the first and cheapest is a standby ups.these are the usual under 200
buck type...they run on ac first and then switch to battary on power
failure or a surge above a preset level..they take every hit as far as
spikes and surges
2nd type is a line interactive---these cost more ,still run on ac power
first but contain voltage regulation and spike and surge
protection..better than a standby unit in regards to spikes and surges
but not a whole lot better]\
3rd type is a on-line...these are the most expensive ,they run on
battary power and are totaly off the line except for the battary
charger..the ac only recharges the battary....maintainance is high on
these as the battaries are very expensive and need to be replaced ofton
as they are always working...these provide total line isolation....

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Mr Fixit" <MrFixit@msn.com> wrote in message
news:gnf7v0d59kcluofngmnngnpn8rc4r743ot@4ax.com...
> To cut to the chase here, if I may, all of this technical discussion is
> great, but of little help to the layman trying to protect their home
> entertainment center (or PC), etc. I would therefore like to suggest
> anyone confused by all of this to visit the following web site where it's
> all explained, including some low cost recommendations:
>
>
<http://computer.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=surge-protector.htm&url
=http://www.djsociety.org/Surge_1.htm>
>

You are correct. I'm not sure how this discussion went from that to wild
theory on what doesn't work, with nobody mentioning what does work.

Fact is, there is nothing going to protect against millions of volts of an
unfortunately placed lighting strike, and if the power supply from the mains
is so bad folks need to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars to protect a
PC or stereo, then it might be time to move, or just run everything off a
generator.

Pagan

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

If isolation alone was effective protection from lightning,
then electronic power supplies already contain sufficient
protection. Power supplies already have galvanic isolation.
So why is that not sufficient? Because lightning voltages
(not shunted to earth) will increase, as necessary, to
overwhelm isolation. This concept called current source is
from first year electrical engineering. But you need not
understand that. If not earthed, then transient voltages will
increase as necessary to overwhelm isolation.

Effective protection has always been about earthing before
the transient can enter a building. Does a telco use
isolation to protect their $multimillion computer from the
miles of wire overhead and everywhere in town? Of course
not. They too use same principle that Ben Franklin
demonstrated in 1752. Earthing.

Posted so many times was the solution for all homeowners.
This in my very first post:
> If you want the installation to [be] installed correctly the
> first time, then the single point earth ground must already
> exist and already make a 'less then 10 foot' connection to
> phone and AC electric 'whole house' protectors.

Bottom line fact: a surge protector is only as effective as
its earth ground. No earth ground means no effective
protection.

Lets review some of Dave's examples. First, the naive often
assume lightning entered via phone line only because modem was
damaged. How did lightning avoid the telco installed 'whole
house' protector? Second, an assumption that electricity
enters a building, damages something, then stops is nonsense.
Electricity first forms a complete electrical circuit as is
taught in elementary school science. No circuit means no
electricity. Only then does something or many things in that
electric circuit fail. First a complete circuit must exist
which means everything damaged must first have an incoming and
outgoing electrical path.

The most common source of modem damage is a strike to wires
highest on pole (wires that would protect the phone line from
being struck - just another reason transient did not enter on
phone line). Transient enters on AC mains seeking earth
ground. We use elementary school science (about electricity);
find a complete circuit. Incoming on AC electric, through
computer, out via modem, down phone line to earth ground.
Modem damage is most commonly created by transients entering
on AC mains - not incoming on phone lines. We now have a
complete circuit from cloud to earth that explains modem
damage.

What was the incoming and outgoing circuit path? Without
both an incoming and outgoing path, then transients cannot
damage electronics. 'Surge entered on phone line to damage
modem' is often a myth promoted by forgetting basic technical
knowledge - such as lessons from elementary school science.

Same transient has been demonstrated (by replacing ICs) to
enter a building (computers were powered off). Enters on AC
mains. Two plug-in protectors provided that transient with
more wires to destructively enter adjacent computers.
Transient then exited on network cards to obtain a third
computer (that had no plug-in protector). Transient incoming
through network card and out via the modem (this was the only
computer with a modem) to earth ground. Transient circuit was
proven by replacing every damaged IC in that circuit path.
Notice every damaged part had the prerequisite incoming and
outgoing electrical path.

First transient forms a complete circuit from cloud to earth
via electronics. Then damage occurs someplace in that
circuit. Modem was not damaged from a transient on phone line
(exemptions due to multiple earth grounds ignored for the
moment).

The second example: Did a struck flag pole 100 feet away
induce surges? Again a classic myth. We earth direct
lightning strikes down a lightning rod where down wire is only
four feet from a computer. The direct lightning strike (and
fields on that downlead wire) did not even reboot the
computer. How does a lightning strike 100 feet away have
sufficient fields when a wire only 4 feet away could not even
reboot the computer - let alone damage anything? These
'induced fields' are hyped routinely without numbers. Once we
apply numbers, those fields just are not destructive.

BTW, why are plug-in UPSes and power strips not effective
protection? The path to earth ground is bundled tightly with
other wires. IOW the plug-in protector causes 'induced
transients'. Wire with transient must be bundled with other
wires to induce a transient on those other wires. This is
dicussed extensively in IEEE papers.

But the flag pole can make a direct electrical connection to
electronics inside the building.

Problem more likely was created by a buried conduit, pipe,
or other conductive material (or soil) that carries the
transient into the building. This figure from the National
Institute of Standards and Technology demonstrate how multiple
earth ground and other grounding problems can created (some
will claim "induce" ) destructive transients inside a
building. Fax machine damaged because building did not have
the all so critical 'single point earth ground':
http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html

Same problem can be created by AC electric lines that
terminates at the last building. Same problem is demonstrated
by four legged animals that are killed when lightning strikes,
for example, a nearby tree. Was that horse killed by an
induced transient? Of course not. The complete electric
circuit was down tree, through ground, up horse hind legs, and
down horses front legs. Horse was part of a complete
electrical circuit. One must first learn a complete circuit
from cloud to earth to discover reasons for damage - or dead
animals.

Isolation may have simply taken the one electronic device
out of a circuit that is incoming at flag pole, enters
building on left side earth ground, rises up through
electronics, crosses building, then drops back down to another
earth ground on building right side. Same circuit that also
killed the horse. Notice the "induced surge" is a myth caused
by not first learning the numbers (note: no Electromagnetic
Field numbers were provided to prove that induced surge
because the number don't exist).

Unfortunately, Dave has posted classic myths about
lightning. First, a complete circuit must be defined. One
does not stop, block, filter, absorb, or isolate such
transients. Those transients are shunted - which means a
complete transient circuit must be understood.

Homeowners have very easy solutions. Begin with the single
point ground that would also conform to post 1990 National
Electrical Code requirements. Then every incoming utility
makes a direct connection to that single point ground either
by direct wire (cable TV and satellite dish) or via a 'whole
house' protector (AC electric and phones). Right there, we
have shunted a transient to earth before transient gets to
electronics. Since the transient is earthed, then galvanic
isolation that exists in all electronics will not be
overwhelmed. Electronic damage avoided because human did his
job.

Any isolation that will be effective already exists in
electronics. Internal electronic appliance protection assumes
you (the homeowner) has routed all incoming utilities to first
make a short ('less than 10 foot') connection to earth
ground. This is about as simple and obvious as can be
explained. This sentence bluntly defines #1 step in transient
protection (also provides human safety requirements).

Transient protection is all about earthing. The most
critical component of that protection system is a single point
ground. No complex for any homeowner to comprehend.

BTW, all homeowners should appreciate we are only discussing
secondary protection. Homeowners must also inspect their
primary protection:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Again, notice the one essential component - single point
ground. Isolation that will be effective is already inside
electronics. Isolation what works IF homeowner has properly
earthed all incoming utilities to the single point ground.

Dave Oldridge wrote:
> ...
> Look, the only REAL protection from lightning is isolation, pure and
> simple. I've never seen an induced lightning spike jump even a foot
> (4 inches is another story!). And those are the most common killers
> of electronics in my experience (lost 4 modems, two ethernet cards--
> repairable--and a monitor in one strike and the whole computer
> except for the hard drive in another). In the first case the
> lightning entered the premises through the phone line and jumped
> into the etherenet wiring in the building. In the second, it came
> in, as I stated elsewhere, via an underground ethernet. The latter
> proved to be a chronic problem as the offices were situated on a
> fairly high spot with a huge metal flagpole just 100 feet away.
> The induced surges on the ethernet were a HUGE problem, but once we
> isolated that piece of wire, the power wiring gave us zero problems.
> I even ran one computer in that office for six months straight
> without a reboot.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Ethernet card contains maybe 2000 volts galvanic isolation.
How did the transient enter through network card and not enter
through power supply? Well the network card was connected
directly to a large lightning rod - called the other
building. Damage was due to a fundamental violation of
protection. That ethernet wire must connect (via a protector)
less than 10 feet to the single point ground before entering
and leaving each building. Lightning struck one building,
exited via the ethernet cable, entered computer in second
building, exited maybe into second building's safety ground,
and then into earth. Now we have defined the complete circuit
from cloud to earth.

Again we demonstrate that damage is directly traceable to an
incoming wire that did not first connect to the building's
single point earth ground. Again we demonstrated that
isolation exists and was overwhelmed because the single point
ground was not provided. Again we have demonstrated damage
that no plug-in UPS or power strip protector would eliminate.

Furthermore, transients need not pass through a power
supply. The adjacent UPS or power strip protector simple
distributes (shunts) a destructive transient to all wires. IOW
the plug-in UPS or protector simply gives a destructive
transient other paths through adjacent electronics. Now the
transient has many more paths to enter and damage adjacent
electronics. And so we have the most common destructive
path. Incoming on AC electric green wire. Bypasses power
supply (and any isolation provided by an interactive or
continuously on-line UPS) to connect directly to motherboard.
Through motherboard into modem via the PNP transistor that
drives modem's off hook relay. Into relay coil. Through
isolation inside that relay to relay wipers. Then out to
earth ground via phone line.

Classic example of how modems are damaged. Specific
components listed because I have diagnosed and repaired this
so often. One most commonly damaged component in that modem's
DAA section (more buzz words due to extensive experience and
underlying theory) is that PNP transistor.

Notice in every case, the problem is created because the
human did not install and connect to a single point earth
ground. Also notice that any protection 'claimed' for a UPS
is simply bypassed. Where is the isolation of an interactive
UPS when the green wire carries destructive transients
completely around that UPS? Welcome to concepts that were
well understood even before WWII.

Can protection be obtained by unplugging everything? Well
the human is available at most only 1/3rd of the day.
Furthermore how is the human suppose to know of every incoming
transient before it can happen. Human want protection that
works every time and that is available 24/7. This is called
'whole house' protector that costs about $1 per protected
appliance. You tell me which the human should do? Unplug
every clock radio, electric clock, smoke detector, bathroom
and kitchen GFCI, and dimmer switch because he suspects a
thunderstorm? Or pay $1 to protect each appliance
constantly? This is not a difficult decision. Do what
mankind has been doing since 1752 when Ben Franklin
demonstrated effective protection - and it costs so little.

Dave Oldridge wrote:
> The thing is, those microsecond surges rarely make it past the power
> supply unless they are showing up on other wires. The worst damage
> I've ever had to computer equipment came from a surge over an
> UNDERGROUND ethernet line in a thunderstorm. In fact that coax got
> to be SO notorious that we put a cheap hub at either end of it and
> just replaced the hubs when there was a thunderstorm (it was about
> 200 feet underground from our office to our ISP's).
>
> And TV's are about the same. A microsecond surge is going to do
> more damage on a cable or antenna lead in than it will on the
> power pipe. They are just so short in duration that the capacitors
> in the power supplies usually buffer the energy regardless of
> voltages.
>
> That said, the BEST protection during thunderstorms, and I speak
> from experience here, is pulling ALL plugs from the power sockets
> and removing all outside antenna, cable and network connections
> from all devices.
>
> Of course you sort of have to BE there to do that!

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:41F445DB.FB0F81C5@hotmail.com:

> If isolation alone was effective protection from lightning,
> then electronic power supplies already contain sufficient
> protection. Power supplies already have galvanic isolation.
> So why is that not sufficient? Because lightning voltages
> (not shunted to earth) will increase, as necessary, to
> overwhelm isolation. This concept called current source is
> from first year electrical engineering. But you need not
> understand that. If not earthed, then transient voltages will
> increase as necessary to overwhelm isolation.
>
> Effective protection has always been about earthing before
> the transient can enter a building. Does a telco use
> isolation to protect their $multimillion computer from the
> miles of wire overhead and everywhere in town? Of course
> not. They too use same principle that Ben Franklin
> demonstrated in 1752. Earthing.
>
> Posted so many times was the solution for all homeowners.
> This in my very first post:
>> If you want the installation to [be] installed correctly the
>> first time, then the single point earth ground must already
>> exist and already make a 'less then 10 foot' connection to
>> phone and AC electric 'whole house' protectors.
>
> Bottom line fact: a surge protector is only as effective as
> its earth ground. No earth ground means no effective
> protection.
>
> Lets review some of Dave's examples. First, the naive often
> assume lightning entered via phone line only because modem was
> damaged. How did lightning avoid the telco installed 'whole
> house' protector? Second, an assumption that electricity
> enters a building, damages something, then stops is nonsense.
> Electricity first forms a complete electrical circuit as is
> taught in elementary school science. No circuit means no
> electricity. Only then does something or many things in that
> electric circuit fail. First a complete circuit must exist
> which means everything damaged must first have an incoming and
> outgoing electrical path.
>
> The most common source of modem damage is a strike to wires
> highest on pole (wires that would protect the phone line from
> being struck - just another reason transient did not enter on
> phone line). Transient enters on AC mains seeking earth
> ground. We use elementary school science (about electricity);
> find a complete circuit. Incoming on AC electric, through
> computer, out via modem, down phone line to earth ground.
> Modem damage is most commonly created by transients entering
> on AC mains - not incoming on phone lines. We now have a
> complete circuit from cloud to earth that explains modem
> damage.
>
> What was the incoming and outgoing circuit path? Without
> both an incoming and outgoing path, then transients cannot
> damage electronics. 'Surge entered on phone line to damage
> modem' is often a myth promoted by forgetting basic technical
> knowledge - such as lessons from elementary school science.
>
> Same transient has been demonstrated (by replacing ICs) to
> enter a building (computers were powered off). Enters on AC
> mains. Two plug-in protectors provided that transient with
> more wires to destructively enter adjacent computers.
> Transient then exited on network cards to obtain a third
> computer (that had no plug-in protector). Transient incoming
> through network card and out via the modem (this was the only
> computer with a modem) to earth ground. Transient circuit was
> proven by replacing every damaged IC in that circuit path.
> Notice every damaged part had the prerequisite incoming and
> outgoing electrical path.
>
> First transient forms a complete circuit from cloud to earth
> via electronics. Then damage occurs someplace in that
> circuit. Modem was not damaged from a transient on phone line
> (exemptions due to multiple earth grounds ignored for the
> moment).
>
> The second example: Did a struck flag pole 100 feet away
> induce surges? Again a classic myth. We earth direct
> lightning strikes down a lightning rod where down wire is only
> four feet from a computer. The direct lightning strike (and
> fields on that downlead wire) did not even reboot the
> computer. How does a lightning strike 100 feet away have
> sufficient fields when a wire only 4 feet away could not even
> reboot the computer - let alone damage anything? These
> 'induced fields' are hyped routinely without numbers. Once we
> apply numbers, those fields just are not destructive.
>
> BTW, why are plug-in UPSes and power strips not effective
> protection? The path to earth ground is bundled tightly with
> other wires. IOW the plug-in protector causes 'induced
> transients'. Wire with transient must be bundled with other
> wires to induce a transient on those other wires. This is
> dicussed extensively in IEEE papers.
>
> But the flag pole can make a direct electrical connection to
> electronics inside the building.
>
> Problem more likely was created by a buried conduit, pipe,
> or other conductive material (or soil) that carries the
> transient into the building. This figure from the National
> Institute of Standards and Technology demonstrate how multiple
> earth ground and other grounding problems can created (some
> will claim "induce" ) destructive transients inside a
> building. Fax machine damaged because building did not have
> the all so critical 'single point earth ground':
> http://www.epri-peac.com/tutorials/sol01tut.html
>
> Same problem can be created by AC electric lines that
> terminates at the last building. Same problem is demonstrated
> by four legged animals that are killed when lightning strikes,
> for example, a nearby tree. Was that horse killed by an
> induced transient? Of course not. The complete electric
> circuit was down tree, through ground, up horse hind legs, and
> down horses front legs. Horse was part of a complete
> electrical circuit. One must first learn a complete circuit
> from cloud to earth to discover reasons for damage - or dead
> animals.
>
> Isolation may have simply taken the one electronic device
> out of a circuit that is incoming at flag pole, enters
> building on left side earth ground, rises up through
> electronics, crosses building, then drops back down to another
> earth ground on building right side. Same circuit that also
> killed the horse. Notice the "induced surge" is a myth caused
> by not first learning the numbers (note: no Electromagnetic
> Field numbers were provided to prove that induced surge
> because the number don't exist).
>
> Unfortunately, Dave has posted classic myths about
> lightning. First, a complete circuit must be defined. One
> does not stop, block, filter, absorb, or isolate such
> transients. Those transients are shunted - which means a
> complete transient circuit must be understood.
>
> Homeowners have very easy solutions. Begin with the single
> point ground that would also conform to post 1990 National
> Electrical Code requirements. Then every incoming utility
> makes a direct connection to that single point ground either
> by direct wire (cable TV and satellite dish) or via a 'whole
> house' protector (AC electric and phones). Right there, we
> have shunted a transient to earth before transient gets to
> electronics. Since the transient is earthed, then galvanic
> isolation that exists in all electronics will not be
> overwhelmed. Electronic damage avoided because human did his
> job.
>
> Any isolation that will be effective already exists in
> electronics. Internal electronic appliance protection assumes

Wrong. Electronic switches and fuses typically provide an isolation that
can be measured in mm of air or vacuum. Induced spike voltages can
easily jump that. But even a foot of air is capable of insulating some
pretty enormous voltages. Go look up the tables for the necessary
voltages to jump various distances in dry air if you doubt me. Pulling
the wires that lead to the outside right off the equipment is the BEST
way to ensure against lightning damage. It won't save you from a direct
hit but 99% of lightning damage to electronics equipment is from induced
surges in wiring, not direct strikes.

Think of the wiring in and around your equipment as being a sort of
antenna and the lightning strike as being a very strong nearby
transmitter (because that's actually more or less what is happening). If
you keep the antenna very short, that keeps the induced voltages down.
For one thing it severely limits the frequencies at which the system will
resonate. For another, for a given conductor diameter, the voltage will
be larger at longer wavelengths.

> you (the homeowner) has routed all incoming utilities to first
> make a short ('less than 10 foot') connection to earth
> ground. This is about as simple and obvious as can be
> explained. This sentence bluntly defines #1 step in transient
> protection (also provides human safety requirements).

There is nothing wrong with doing this, but it is not necessarily the
protection you think it is. It will still put high voltages at your
equipment on wavelengths that are odd multiples of 1/4 wave at the length
of the grounding connection.

> Transient protection is all about earthing. The most
> critical component of that protection system is a single point
> ground. No complex for any homeowner to comprehend.

That will no doubt help with power line spikes that usually come in on
the conductors and the ground in parallel, but it is NOT a solution for
spikes that arrive via antenna leads, telephone connections (though
grounding may help these somewhat) and network wiring.

Believe me, I've been through this. That building we had all the trouble
in with the 200 foot underground ethernet cable had EVERYTHING earthed
six ways to Sunday. But that 200 foot underground line would pick up
enough voltage every thunderstorm to smash out the ethernet cards at
either end. We would have used wireless, but it wasn't available at that
time, so we just bought cheap hubs and replaced as needed, either
replacing the hub or the damaged chip, whichever was practical.

But all the grounding in the world did not help. I mean we're talking
about a coaxial cable, earthed at both ends and STILL it built up
voltages.

The ethernet wiring in my trailer used to pick up spikes, too, but not
such large ones. Usually I was there to pull all the plugs out during a
storm. If there was no easy path from the wall socket to the equipment,
from an antenna to the equipment and from the phone line to the
equipment, then I was usually safe. In other words, no matter what OTHER
precautions you take, don't be afraid to unplug everything! It works!


--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

If what you post was true, then the telco is suffering
numerous and massive outages to their $multi-million switching
computers. Cell phone towers are constantly damaged. 911
operators remove headsets (stop taking calls) during
thunderstorms. And with 25 direct strikes every year to the
Empire State Building, then FM and TV stations are constantly
damaged.

An old story from the early days of Ham radio. They
suffered lightning damage. They even disconnected the antenna
and place that lead inside a mason jar. They still suffered
damage. Then the antenna was earthed. No more damage. Even
isolation from a mason jar was not effective.

You think fuses and switches with millimeter separation will
stop what even miles of sky could not? You think fuses that
take milliseconds to blow will open fast enough to stop the so
destructive microseconds transient? Numbers that you
continuously avoid say you are wrong. These are damning
numbers. Explain the contradiction.

Furthermore how much spacing is recommended for downleads of
lightning rods. Some say as much as 6 feet. Two feet is
considered minimal. This is not due to induced fields from
nearby strikes. This is due to breakdown voltages. So how
does a millimeters fuse or switch stop that breakdown voltage?

How does a flag pole 100 feet away induce a spike but
contacts on a switch only millimeters apart does not? More
damning numbers.

Breakdown voltage. Another number you have avoided. Once
we discuss breakdown voltages, then your isolation techniques
again have no merit.

No numbers are provided for fields rumored to create induced
spikes. Why not? If correct, then those numbers would be
found in the so many IEEE papers. IEEE papers do discuss
induced transients. But your induced spikes are only ghost
stories - not found in those IEEE papers.

We have generations of industry experience, fuses that are
clearly too slow, high reliability locations that use earthing
to not suffer damage from direct strikes, a real explanation
why that struck flag pole can be part of a destructive
circuit, numbers that you don't provide and that say your
speculations are unsupported, figure from the NIST that shows
how bad grounding causes damage, and IEEE papers that
disagree with your conclusions. When will you provide
supporting information? Your speculations are not even
tempered with numbers or responsible sources. When will you
put up electromagnetic field numbers to prove your 'induced'
speculation?

But lets assume your are correct about these induced
transients. Then clearly every neighborhood radio and TV is
damaged when lightning strikes. Clearly every automobile
radio is destroyed. They are not damaged? Correct. Number
of damaged radios? Zero. Where is all this damage from
induced spikes?

Transient protection is about earthing. You claim "it is
NOT a solution for spikes that arrive via antenna leads,
telephone connections (though grounding may help these
somewhat) and network wiring." Where do you think these
principles were applied first - to demonstrate no surge
damage? In broadcast and ham radio stations and in every
telephone switching center. Do you invent this stuff as you
go? Did you even learn the history of transient protection as
was well documented in GE and Westinghouse papers before WWII?

Believe you? How can I? You invent induced spikes that
contradict generation of industry experience. You don't
provide numbers. You even claim a millimeter fuse will blow
fast enough AND provide isolation when miles of sky could
not. You even ignore that 250 volt rating on fuses. 250
volts alone says a fuse could not isolate the destructive
surge. Just another number you avoid. Where are any
supporting facts to validate your 'induced spike'? Even
unplugging has been demonstrated with numbers to be unreliable
protection.

A benchmark in protection is Polyphaser. Their application
notes are considered legendary. Do they discuss their product
line? Do they promote isolation for protection? Of course
not. Polyphaser app notes discuss the most important factor
in transient protection - earthing:
http://www.polyphaser.com/ppc_technical.asp

I know I will not convince you otherwise. You are sure you
have sufficient knowledge - even when numbers contradict your
speculations. Your 'induce spike' theory is no long the
point. You are being exampled as why so many promote
ineffective protection methods - numbers, science concepts,
and generations of experiments and experience all be damned.

Any isolation that will provide sufficient protection is
already inside electronics. Appliances have sufficient
protection that may be overwhelmed if not earthed before that
transient can enter a building. Well proven in high
reliability facilities, demonstrated by the underlying theory,
explained by numbers, and even demonstrated by a dead horse.
But somehow all those facts mean nothing? That is the point.

A first indicator of junk science is no numbers. How does a
computer sit only four feet away from a lightning rod downlead
- and not even reboot? An induced strike would clearly damage
a computer only four feet away - assuming a struck flag pole
100 feet away also creates destructive fields. More damning
numbers. Explain how fields only four feet away are trivial
but fields 100 feet away are so destructive? These induced
strikes are classic urban myth.

Dave Oldridge wrote:

> Wrong. Electronic switches and fuses typically provide an isolation
> that can be measured in mm of air or vacuum. Induced spike voltages
> can easily jump that. But even a foot of air is capable of insulating
> some pretty enormous voltages. Go look up the tables for the
> necessary voltages to jump various distances in dry air if you doubt
> me. Pulling the wires that lead to the outside right off the
> equipment is the BEST way to ensure against lightning damage. It
> won't save you from a direct hit but 99% of lightning damage to
> electronics equipment is from induced surges in wiring, not direct
> strikes.
>
> Think of the wiring in and around your equipment as being a sort of
> antenna and the lightning strike as being a very strong nearby
> transmitter (because that's actually more or less what is happening).
> If you keep the antenna very short, that keeps the induced voltages
> down. For one thing it severely limits the frequencies at which the
> system will resonate. For another, for a given conductor diameter,
> the voltage will be larger at longer wavelengths.
>
>> you (the homeowner) has routed all incoming utilities to first
>> make a short ('less than 10 foot') connection to earth
>> ground. This is about as simple and obvious as can be
>> explained. This sentence bluntly defines #1 step in transient
>> protection (also provides human safety requirements).
>
> There is nothing wrong with doing this, but it is not necessarily
> the protection you think it is. It will still put high voltages at
> your equipment on wavelengths that are odd multiples of 1/4 wave at
> the length of the grounding connection.
>
>> Transient protection is all about earthing. The most
>> critical component of that protection system is a single point
>> ground. No complex for any homeowner to comprehend.
>
> That will no doubt help with power line spikes that usually come in on
> the conductors and the ground in parallel, but it is NOT a solution for
> spikes that arrive via antenna leads, telephone connections (though
> grounding may help these somewhat) and network wiring.
>
> Believe me, I've been through this. That building we had all the trouble
> in with the 200 foot underground ethernet cable had EVERYTHING earthed
> six ways to Sunday. But that 200 foot underground line would pick up
> enough voltage every thunderstorm to smash out the ethernet cards at
> either end. We would have used wireless, but it wasn't available at
> that time, so we just bought cheap hubs and replaced as needed, either
> replacing the hub or the damaged chip, whichever was practical.
>
> But all the grounding in the world did not help. I mean we're talking
> about a coaxial cable, earthed at both ends and STILL it built up
> voltages.
>
> The ethernet wiring in my trailer used to pick up spikes, too, but not
> such large ones. Usually I was there to pull all the plugs out during a
> storm. If there was no easy path from the wall socket to the equipment,
> from an antenna to the equipment and from the phone line to the
> equipment, then I was usually safe. In other words, no matter what
> OTHER precautions you take, don't be afraid to unplug everything! It
> works!
>
> --
> Dave Oldridge+
> ICQ 1800667
>
> A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Pagan wrote:
> "w_tom" <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:41F446E8.A12952A2@hotmail.com...
> <snip>
> > A 'cut to the chase' was posted many times previously. Also
> > included in that previous 3 Sept 2003 discussion were specific
> > model numbers and other examples. All comes back to the same
> > point that the 'HowStuffWorks' does completely avoid
> > discussing: a surge protector is only as effective as its
> > earth ground. You know that 'HowStuffWorks' piece is flawed.
> > They don't even mention earthing. No earth ground means no
> > effective protection.
>
> No argument there, however, the poster who first asked how to protect
his
> system lives in an apartment complex. As the manager would probably
not
> appreciate one of the tenents making electrical and possibly
structural
> changes to the building's power supply, and since the manager is
obligated
> to provide a secure electrical supply by his liability, it's probably
safe,
> or at least practical, to assume the ground is good.
>
> That being said, the biggest danger in this instance, from what I
see, is
> localized surges and dropoffs caused by other tenents.
>
> Pagan

This is a whopping assumption. The amount of surge protection, if any,
can vary all over the place. A typical home that's built today has
zero for AC surge protection, unless a homeowner specifically request
it. Unless someone has some evidence to the contrary, I don't see why
an average apartment building would be any different. And apartments
come in all varities don't they? Many are nothing more than part of a
two or three family house. And since when is a localized surge and
dropoff from another tenant even a danger? The real danger is
typically caused by something quite different and more severe -
lightning.



>
> > Mr Fixit wrote:
> > > To cut to the chase here, if I may, all of this technical
discussion
> > > is great, but of little help to the layman trying to protect
their
> > > home entertainment center (or PC), etc. I would therefore like to
> > > suggest anyone confused by all of this to visit the following web
> > > site where it's all explained, including some low cost
> > > recommendations:
> > >
>
<http://computer.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=surge-protector.htm&url
> =http://www.djsociety.org/Surge_1.htm>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Seems you are missing the point. If a surge from lightning enters a
dwelling, there ain't squat you can do about it, except hope you don't
become personally involved with the circuit. "

That's simply not true. A destructive surge of thousands of volts can
come down the power line from a lightning strike that wasn't even near
the building in question. Lightning could hit a overhead line down the
street and still have a resulting nasty surge appear in your home.
That is the more typical case and is far more common than a direct
strike to the building or service entrance. This type of event is
protected against by surge protector which provides a path to ground
for the transient.

As for faulty appliances screwing up power in an apartment building
and needing surge protection, I think Tom had an excellent point. If
that were the case, we's all have lots of experience by now with one
appliance interfering with another wouldn't we? It might happen in
rare cases, but a lightning transient entering via external wires, be
they AC, cable, or phone is far more likely, unless they are protected
correctly.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

The National Electrical Code demands that both phone and
cable connections make a connection to what is the single
point earth ground. A requirement first for human safety also
provides the transistor safety. My cable company recently
retrained their installers after AT&T sold them off. Now
connections to earth ground must be shorter than the
connection to any TVs or cable modem. This cable company
requirement is in beyond what is required for human safety.
Yes, once installers were so poorly trained as to even install
interior grade cable outside and underground. Then blame the
degraded service on anything but untrained installers. That
has changed. Cable company is now installing effective
protection as baby Bells have been installing for decades.
Both are required by the National Electrical Code and by the
FCC to earth their incoming wires.

Leonard Caillouet wrote:
> We recommend verifying that grounding on the a.c. service is clean
> and tight, that all incoming lines are grounded to that point as
> per codes, and good quality surge suppression that covers all
> lines at the home theater system. Whole house suppression is a
> good idea, but phone and cable companies rarely do it.
>
> Direct lightning strikes are likely going to do some damage
> regardless of precautions. More common are the many homes nearby
> that get smaller surges. These can be protected, IME. We almost
> never see damage on equipment in our installations, done by our
> technicians. My business doubles during storm season, however,
> with equipment damaged by surges. Curious that it is almost
> never equipment connected to surge suppressors we sell in
> correctly installed systems.
>
> Good sense installations don't cost thousands. Again, pay
> attention to good grounding, buy surge suppressors with large
> capacity, three way protection, and protection for all lines into
> the system. Get whole house suppression and suppression on each
> system within the home. And don't bother with excessive
> filtration/conditioning systems unless they are needed for some
> specific noise problem, which is rare.
>
> Leonard

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

> We will stop what 3 miles of sky could not? Good luck
> trying to prove that claim. Surge protection is only as
> effective as its earth ground - the most critical 'system'
> component.


A brief google groups of your name 'w_tom' along with the words "surge
protector" brings up about a 5000 posts on the subject going back 5
years, spanning more groups than I care to ennumerate.

You've been making this argument for a very long time, anywhere you can.
Whether you are right or wrong Nobody here is going to affect your
position.

In my own experience, I beleive inexpensive surge protectors have
prevented damage to some of my equipment, and I think they are a useful
and worthwhile investment. I agree completely that Monster et al
products are grossly overpriced and marketed under a haze of myth,
superstition, and outright lies. And I even agree that by and large your
assement of the effectiveness of 'surge protectors' against a direct
lightning strike is accurate.

However, I remain unconvinced that they are completely useless. Not
every surge that hits my equipment has the potential to leap miles of
sky. And even if the internals of the equipment -should- be able to
handle it as well as the surge device does... I'm unconvinced that they
always do. If nothing else, frying a $20 replaceable-by-me 'surge
protector' instead of $60+ worth of electronics repaired by a technician
at $90.00+/hr seems like a good tradeoff... and hey I needed a power bar
anyway.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Somewhere around Wed, 26 Jan 2005 00:31:29 -0500, while reading
alt.tv.tech.hdtv, I think I thought I saw this post from w_tom
<w_tom1@hotmail.com>:

> . . .

Wow! With that much verbiage, you must be right. But my experience is that
the more someone talks, the less they know, and try to cover up their lack
of knowledge by overwhelming a person with so much talk that the person just
gives up.

Good job!
--
Marty
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...
well, I have others." - Groucho Marx

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Destructive transient occurs typically once every eight
years. Just another reason why unplugging is so ineffective
AND why we spend a massive $1 per protected appliance - so
that one transient will not damage everything. Apparently
damage is acceptable to you. Good enough. But don't impose
your low standards on others. Others can spend $1 instead of
your $15 or $50 to obtain real protection.

A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
No earth ground means no effective protection. Protection is
about transients that occur typically once every eight years.
Number that varies with geographical location and underlying
geology.

Dave Oldridge wrote:
> Very few DIRECT strikes are ever experienced. I've only seen two
> in over 30 years.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Lets assume you have a transient that damaged the
protector. Why was the adjacent appliance not damaged? After
all, same transient hit both simultaneously. Yes, protector
does not sit between transient and appliance. Transient hits
both simultaneously. Reality: appliance protected itself. Any
protector that fried provides no effective protection.
Effective protectors don't fry. Even worse, the protector can
provide more destructive paths through an adjacent appliance.
Where is the protection? Frying - which means it is not
effective.

Over so many years, I repeatedly ask the same question.
Post manufacturer's numerical specs for protection from a
typically destructive transient. No one has done so. The
closest one came:
> SURGE PROTECTION AND FILTERING
> Normal mode clamping response time 0 ns, instantaneous
> Normal mode surge voltage let through <5% of test peak
> voltage when subjected to IEEE 587 Cat. A 6kVA test
> Normal mode noise suppression Full time EMI/RFI filtering
> Modem/10Base-T/100Base-Tx network cable port single line
> (2 wire, RJ11) or network (UTP, RJ45) compatible jacks

Damning fact they hope we don't notice. Destructive
transients are longitudinal mode. Manufacture avoids
discussing longitudinal mode and discussing earth ground so
that we will make erroneous assumptions.

Find specs today that even mention normal mode. With even
less facts, then you will not ask, "What about longitudinal
mode?" Better to just claim generic transient protection and
hope the naive will make blanket assumptions.

An adjacent $20 protector does nothing for you while
enriching the manufacturer. It does even less if it fries.
Electronics already has sufficient protection (as required by
industry standards) IF a destructive transient is earthed.
And again, the plug-in protector can even contribute to damage
of an adjacent appliance. A plug-in manufacturer will starve
you of facts hoping you will 'wish' it does something useful.

No mention of longitudinal mode surge protection even though
destructive transients are longitudinal mode. Forgets to
mention that a plug-in protector can provide a transient with
more paths through adjacent appliance. What you don't know
won't hurt .... them.


42 wrote:
> A brief google groups of your name 'w_tom' along with the words "surge
> protector" brings up about a 5000 posts on the subject going back 5
> years, spanning more groups than I care to ennumerate.
>
> You've been making this argument for a very long time, anywhere you can.
> Whether you are right or wrong Nobody here is going to affect your
> position.
>
> In my own experience, I beleive inexpensive surge protectors have
> prevented damage to some of my equipment, and I think they are a useful
> and worthwhile investment. I agree completely that Monster et al
> products are grossly overpriced and marketed under a haze of myth,
> superstition, and outright lies. And I even agree that by and large your
> assement of the effectiveness of 'surge protectors' against a direct
> lightning strike is accurate.
>
> However, I remain unconvinced that they are completely useless. Not
> every surge that hits my equipment has the potential to leap miles of
> sky. And even if the internals of the equipment -should- be able to
> handle it as well as the surge device does... I'm unconvinced that they
> always do. If nothing else, frying a $20 replaceable-by-me 'surge
> protector' instead of $60+ worth of electronics repaired by a technician
> at $90.00+/hr seems like a good tradeoff... and hey I needed a power bar
> anyway.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:41F82A59.D1FAAF53@hotmail.com:

> Destructive transient occurs typically once every eight
> years. Just another reason why unplugging is so ineffective
> AND why we spend a massive $1 per protected appliance - so
> that one transient will not damage everything. Apparently
> damage is acceptable to you. Good enough. But don't impose
> your low standards on others. Others can spend $1 instead of
> your $15 or $50 to obtain real protection.
>
> A surge protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

That's nice. Today, I live 20 feet above ground level here. And I'm not
permitted to put things over the balcony and into the ground, so we're
stuck using existing wiring and/or copper pipe. A 20-foot ground wire
will have all kinds of voltage at the upper end, anyway. Not DC voltage,
to be sure, but voltage that is quite capable of spiking semiconductors.

> No earth ground means no effective protection. Protection is
> about transients that occur typically once every eight years.
> Number that varies with geographical location and underlying
> geology.

Yep.....but earth ground isn't always effective protection. That
ethernet cable I told you about had one of those (and I mean with a
ground rod driven 8 feet into the dirt) at each end. It didn't help a
bit. Why? Because induction does not only take place at DC.

Now maybe YOU could have engineered it differently. The professionals
who put it in didn't and I could not see anything wrong with what they
did. Of course today, I'd just do it in a non-conducting optical fiber
and be done with it.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

w_tom <w_tom1@hotmail.com> wrote in news:41F89198.53B43BF3@hotmail.com:

> No problem, Dave. Nothing posted here was for your benefit
> anyway. You even think destructive transients are DC.

You even think you can read for meaning. Why should I believe anything
you say you have read, when you cannot even read my posts for meaning.

> Destructive microsecond transients are not DC. Just another
> little fact that one with basic electrical knowledge should
> have known. That is the point. You just know; technical
> facts be damned.

Just another stupid misreading of what I actually posted. If you can't
read what I write, then don't even bother to reply. You're not worth
correcting.

> BTW, if those ethernet cable installers had to install 8
> foot ground rods, then the installation was defective. That
> coax was not connected to an existing single point ground.

Therein is the problem. How do you get a SINGLE POINT GROUND when the
electrical systems in both buildings are grounded separately? But the
fact is, even a single point ground will not help you. I did have JUST
such a ground on an antenna system once. The lead was exactly 16 feet
long and led directly to a single six-foot rod that was pounded into
salt-water-soaked sand a few hundred yards into a sand bar in the
Atlantic ocean. Applying RF to the system resulted in 5000 volts at the
top of the ground lead at 14mhz. Not enough to fry anything, but that
was just from the internal workings of the system. I got a BETTER RF
ground by simply removing the wire from the rod and insulating it (though
at the expense of more radiation from the upper end of the ground wire).

And, believe me, the ELECTRICAL ground for the equipment was different
from the RF ground. The point is, lightning is not DC. It's not even
CLOSE. But YOU had to misrepresent what I wrote and then yell about it.

Don't even bother to reply. Just go take a remedial reading course until
you can actually read what I post.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"mb" <relax@home.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1c63623db57e4e5d989694@news.east.cox.net...
> This discussion has become interesting and useful way beyond my original
> question and I apprecitate everyone's time, effort and input.
>
> My complex is in northwest Florida and has 230 units averaging 1200 sq.
> ft. I think the construction would fall into the "steel & concrete"
> category, but I'm not sure. Interior studding is metal of some kind.
> Compared to south Florida, this area isn't the lightning capitol of the
> world, but we get our fair share, and judging from sound and flash
> alone, we've had a few close calls, but I've never had anything damaged
> using inexpensive power strips.
>
> Having said this, I've never paid $1500 for a television set before, so
> therein lies my concern. As always, thanks.

You may have noticed, I've pretty much bowed out of this discussion. I
simply don't have the background, time, or energy to endlessly argue with
everybody, especially those who don't really understand your position and/or
offer huge technical discussions while leaving out anything resembling a
solution.

I'd say your best protection above all others is a good warranty, the kind
most folks (including me) feel is a rip-off in most cases. Some stores
offer 30 days or so after you buy to purchase their in-house warranty, and
it may be a good idea if the company, such as Best Buy or Sears, is going to
be around for a while.

You also may want to review or insurance or contact your agent.

If it were me, I'd do the above, then buy a fairly cheap surge protector, or
even better a UPS, or both, and if a hurricane or other huge storm comes
calling, unplug your gear, including the antenna/cable/sat leads. If your
paranoid and/or have the bucks, one of those Panamax suppressors might be
better. The other expensive surge protectors and line conditioners,
especially ones with their own warranties, are pure rip-offs.

Despite what some folks say about a UPS, it certainly can't hurt, and it
sure is handy when the power goes out and you have a cordless phone plugged
in, not to mention a DVR or TIVO.

And for all those good people who are going to follow this post with a
million-and-one reasons why nothing I mentioned works, then back up your
claims and OFFER SOME SOLUTIONS THAT DO WORK. :-)

Pagan

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <3p6dnVLmDKBKrNPfRVn-ow@giganews.com> "S.P."
<schmartypantz@yahooooo.com> writes:

>Is it safe to say that installing my own grounding rod where the cable lines
>(I have 3) meet the house will result in a much better ground than the
>pathetic way they strap it to a water spigot that has to run 60 feet through
>the house, and then through the water meter, before being grounded?

Perhaps. Any "ground" is better than none and it is as much for your own
safety as anything else. The goal here is in being able to provide some
basic level of protection from electrocution while at the same time
realizing that nothing will protect your equipment from a direct lightning
hit. (i.e., one which hits a tree in your yard or an antenna on your roof
or the pole from which your power/phone/cable service comes)

Inarguably the most dangerous "ground" is one which has been stupidly
attached to a natural gas pipe. I've seen it several times...

Ordinarily the best "ground" is the ground rod driven in by the power
company at the electrical service entrance point. These are (normally) 8
feet long and is the point at which everything (power, phone, cable, etc)
**should** be grounded. Anytime you have multiple grounding points you
have the potential of creating a "ground loop" which can be the source of
some really strange problems. A cold water pipe "ground" can be a very
good grounding point only if it's copper or iron pipe and a grounding
strap is in place around the meter. Since local water distribution
companies have been using the much cheaper PVC pipe for the last several
decades, a water pipe ground may very well -not- be true "ground".

Cable TV and phone companies (and sat-tv professional installers) will
drive their own ground rods in usually only when there's no convenient or
obvious ground connection available at their entrance point. Just as a
point of interest, CATV/Phone company ground rods are typically only 4~6
feet long and much smaller diameter than the one installed by the power
company.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

A lot of what can be done is dependant on local codes. I know in my area,
when I had my house re-piped with copper (from steel), they had to bring the
grounding up to code. This involved strapping the hot water, cold water, gas
line, ground rod, and meter box all together in one continuous connection.
Made lots of sense to me in that it definitely minimized the ground loop
problem, but it sure made it interesting for the plumber to get it all
connected that way. I did have to drive my own separate ground rod for my
chimney mounted antenna, as it wasn't practical to tap into the existing
ground system because of its location.

"Greywolf" <greywolfin45@*spamisbad*sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:5By3e.28291$hU7.11569@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com...
> "Mr Fixit" <MrFixit@msn.com> wrote in message
> news:ie9t41l8bvih6lhacl87l69jqildq6nnlu@4ax.com...
>> In article <3p6dnVLmDKBKrNPfRVn-ow@giganews.com> "S.P."
>> <schmartypantz@yahooooo.com> writes:
>>
>>>Is it safe to say that installing my own grounding rod where the cable
>>>lines
>>>(I have 3) meet the house will result in a much better ground than the
>>>pathetic way they strap it to a water spigot that has to run 60 feet
>>>through
>>>the house, and then through the water meter, before being grounded?
>>
>> Perhaps. Any "ground" is better than none and it is as much for your own
>> safety as anything else. The goal here is in being able to provide some
>> basic level of protection from electrocution while at the same time
>> realizing that nothing will protect your equipment from a direct
>> lightning
>> hit. (i.e., one which hits a tree in your yard or an antenna on your roof
>> or the pole from which your power/phone/cable service comes)
>>
>> Inarguably the most dangerous "ground" is one which has been stupidly
>> attached to a natural gas pipe. I've seen it several times...
>>
>> Ordinarily the best "ground" is the ground rod driven in by the power
>> company at the electrical service entrance point. These are (normally) 8
>> feet long and is the point at which everything (power, phone, cable, etc)
>> **should** be grounded. Anytime you have multiple grounding points you
>> have the potential of creating a "ground loop" which can be the source of
>> some really strange problems. A cold water pipe "ground" can be a very
>> good grounding point only if it's copper or iron pipe and a grounding
>> strap is in place around the meter. Since local water distribution
>> companies have been using the much cheaper PVC pipe for the last several
>> decades, a water pipe ground may very well -not- be true "ground".
>>
>> Cable TV and phone companies (and sat-tv professional installers) will
>> drive their own ground rods in usually only when there's no convenient or
>> obvious ground connection available at their entrance point. Just as a
>> point of interest, CATV/Phone company ground rods are typically only 4~6
>> feet long and much smaller diameter than the one installed by the power
>> company.
>>
> Right. If that spigot is attached to ground strapped all metal piping
> within 5ft of pipe run to the water main entrance to the building it is a
> good ground. You check with your local building department to see if it's
> a code violation though. Some areas don't permit water pipe grounding. If
> a separate rod is sunk, it must be bonded to the main building ground
> system with at least a 6 guage copper wire.
>
> Pat
>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

You guys/gals are like a short course in electrical building codes. Thanks.
Hmmm. In my own case, several years ago I had a direct strike to a tree on
which the telephone wires were run. You can see how the peeled bark and
dead wood end at the point where the phone wires grounded the strike through
my computers and phones. Much electronic damage was done. Surge
suppressing power strips were laughed at by the strike because it entered
through the modems and spread through the Ethernet wires.

My cable wires hit the house and are grounded to the external spigot on the
furthest part of the house away from where the electric wires and lead water
pipe enter. The electric panel is grounded through the water pipe after the
water meter. I have to check and make sure there is a strap bridging the
meter. The telephone wires are grounded with a wire from the external 6
pair box to a spigot on that side of the house. The cable wires, though,
ground through about a 70 foot run of 1/2 inch copper water pipe. It sounds
like if I put a real grounding spike on the far side of the house for the
cables it might cause a ground loop, unless I run a 6 gauge copper wire
parallel to the water pipe all the way to the lead pipe ground. Am I wrong
to think this?