Building/upgrading my first pc

[FirstTimeBuilder]

I am considering upgrading/building a new pc using some older parts--is it worth it or should i consider starting from scratch?

Currently, I'm running an older Gateway with a Pentium 4 3Ghz w/ 800 Mhz FSB with about 1024 Mb of Ram.

My idea was to buy a new case, but use the existing CPU/RAM/Audio card and whatever else i can use while upgrading the video card immediately (which i desperately need regardless. I'm currently using a 128 Mb Radeon 9600G).


I had to replace my PSU a couple months ago (am now using an Antec 500W ATX 12V, v2.0) so I'm hoping that will be enough to power more toys, fans, etc.

The main problem i'm having now is, I believe, heat related. My computer randomly reboots when it's been on for a while, and I am hoping that a new breezy case with better fans will be an easy and relatively inexpensive solution which will allow for further upgrades in the future.

I've had other issues in the past such as my audio card not being recognized by my mobo. Re-seating the card fixes this. I haven't had to do this recently but it's been a problem from day 1. I'm assuming its a junky motherboard so i'd likely be replacing that.

I don't do anything fancy with my computer except play MMO's like Lineage II, burn DvD's, play music/videos, etc.

My current setup is fast enough for most things imo, except for ultra-smooth gaming at high the highest resolutions (which i hope a video card upgrade will fix). I'm not expecting to get any real speed boost out of a new case/fans/ram/video card but mostly a smoother running system that I can upgrade even further when the time comes.

I'm new at this whole thing but i've had to replace hardware before and have always wanted to build a new computer so I'm thinking this will be sort of a nice starting point and middle ground. Maybe with my next pc, i can start truly from scratch.

Does anyone think my needs justify salvaging these older parts or am i just crazy :?:


Thanks, in advance.

 

[deusex]

Moore's Law......AAhhhhhh

Every 18 months...

YEs, you should upgrade - CHeap as never before now

 

[raven_87]

hell, mmo's are nothing taxing.

you can find a suitable board; is your P4 a 775 or 478?

toss in another Gig of Ram, and a decent GPU and you'll be fine.

 

[g-paw]

I'd go with a new build and keep the Gateway as a backup. Once the new machine is up and running and you've got all your data on the new machine, I'd do a clean, full format, install of Windows on the Gateway From how you describe your usage you could do a nice machine for well under $1000. What's your budget?

 

[userax]

If money is a concern, then upgrade now and build a new one later. It will take ~270 to upgrade your computer (x1950pro, case + fans) but after the upgrade, you'll play pretty much all your games at max and smoothly. Therefore, no need for a costly new build since you got all the power you'll need. However, when you want more power, in 2 years, cpu + gpu will be much much better. AMD has it's new phenom which is supposedly pretty good(40-50% increase?) and Intel has it's N____something which is supposed to be even better. And the ATI and Nvidia's gpus are all first directx10 generation, which means they kind of suck. After 2 years, they'll be on their 2nd or 3rd generation which should give them much more of a kick. Same trend happened with directx9 gpus. So upgrade now, save money, and when everyone else are still on their dual cores + gts/x, you'll be sky high.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

I'm not opposed to spending some money on some nice new components, however i've pretty much outlived my older gateway, or at least most of it...

I've got nothing on the old hard drive as I had to reformat it recently and lost anything of any importance anyhow so in the meantime i was thinking of moving that over to a new case. It's 120 gigs so it may make a good slave drive.

I've blown the old PSU and monitor recently. I upgraded the original PSU to a new Antec (500W) and have a pretty nice wide screen ViewSonic monitor now. I like the idea of having two PC's, (after all how many is too many?) but buying another monitor at the moment is not something I want to do.

The main problem is that any upgrades would require some serious cooling. The case was always kind of ill-designed and with only the processor and PSU fans never ran very cool to begin with. It's been restarting at random on me ever since i installed that new PSU, I assume it's a heat issue as there are no fans blowing into the case.

It's a mid tower with room for expansion, but I think my time would be better spent getting fans into a new case rather than trying to figure out how to cool down this old rig.

For starters I was thinking of a new motherboard, video card, case, fans, and maybe another 512 mb of ram (i currently have two 256 sticks and one 512 stick in there. i think its 400 mhz DDR SDRAM). Everything else should, ideally, be usable for the time being.

RAM is cheap so if a new motherboard requires newer RAM, then so be it. I'm hoping to get away with the 500W PSU I have now to power everything and then start replacing parts when I see some good deals.

I was thinking of putting about $600 - $800 dollars into some new components, seeing how it went, and then trying to replace things of lesser importance; DVD drive, hard drive, audio card, etc.

My main concern was that I'd be spending time/money on a new build based around my P4 and have that be the weakest link. It seems that new mother boards are P4 and Core 2 Duo compatible. If it's possible, I can swap out the processor too when prices on the core's come down. As for the P4, I'm not sure if it's a 775 or a 478 or even what these mean. Is it number of pins? Regardless, what's the easiest way to find out and will this make a difference when choosing a mother board?


Thanks again for the replies!

 

[g-paw]

Something like this for a start:
MOBO http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16813130082
CPU http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16819115004
RAM http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16820134117
Case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068

While it has SLI, which I wouldn't use, it has onboard firewire if you have or willing be getting a camcorder. Given I'm not into gaming I'll defer to others for the video card. Any number of nice cases given you have a PSU. For me the two most important things in a case is how easy it is to work in and they are reasonably quiet, have a 3 Antec Sonata IIs that I obviously like. Best to get a 120mm rear fan to quiet the case

 

[bigblack]

First of all, welcome to the forum!

You will need to troubleshoot your random reboots of your current build. As you describe it, there is a fair chance your new PSU is causing the reboots. If you still have the old one, swap them and try to find the culprit. It is a basic, first step.

The second step is to determine if your cpu is a socket 775, or a socket 478. These are types of sockets and the numbers correspond to pins, or very small balls that act like pins. A simple way to know is to open the case and look at the cooler of the cpu. If it is circular (the cooler, not the fan!), then you have a socket 775 cpu. If it is rectangular, then most probably you have a socket 478 cpu, or an after market cooler. Another easy way is to download and install CPU-Z http://www.cpuid.com/download/cpu-z-140.zip and then run it to get all the info of your cpu.

Troubleshoot your restart problem, post the details of your cpu and we will try to help you upgrade whatever component is necessary.

Photos of your rig would help...

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

Thanks for the welcome as well as that app. pretty cool.

I do indeed, have a socket 478 cpu.

As for the old PSU...it's gone. I had to replace it because fan in it stopped working and began to make this terrible grinding noise.

I'm only guessing that the PSU is overheating. Typically, when it reboots, the back of the PSU does feel quite warm. I'm not sure what the other causes may be however.

 

[raven_87]

though its not my call what route to take, I usually myself go with a new build

obviously a C2D - the E4300 above is nice, but the E6320 is a bit cheaper

I need to sig my board choices.... DFI, Asus or Gigabyte being the first 3.

You can pick up that kingston, or you can throw down for something a bit better; I'm not all to sure what you expenses or use of machine aside from light mmo's.


and for the love of god why a midtower case? seriously, go full tower at this point. anything less and you'll be buying a new tower if you go to upgrade something big (like a GPU)

 

[bigblack]

Thanks for the welcome as well as that app. pretty cool.

I do indeed, have a socket 478 cpu.

As for the old PSU...it's gone. I had to replace it because fan in it stopped working and began to make this terrible grinding noise.

I'm only guessing that the PSU is overheating. Typically, when it reboots, the back of the PSU does feel quite warm. I'm not sure what the other causes may be however.

If by changing the psu you started having these problems, then it is not the psu overheating but rather a defective psu. I'm afraid that either you will have to test it with a friend's psu, or test your psu in a friend's pc, or RMA it and get a refund if possible.

Bad news for the cpu as well. It does not fit in any modern mobo i know of that will also permit you to reuse your ram and upgrade your video card without costing you too much. You see, either you have to buy a 478 mobo with AGP and DDR support so you can fit your cpu and ram and buy a 7600GT for AGP (that will cost you more than the PCI-express version), or you will have to forget your old pc and start from scratch, which is more expensive overall but a better solution in my opinion.

Let me propose something within your $600-$800 budget

Mobo Gigabyte 965 DS3 v1.3 $99.99 free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128042

Cpu Intel C2D E4300 $114.50 free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115013

Ram Geil 2X1GB 800Mhz kit DDR2 $83.99 Free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231098

Hard disc Seagate Barracuda 250GB SATA2 $66.99 free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148142

Video card SAPPHIRE Radeon X1950PRO 256MB $145.99, $125.99 after rebate. Shipping $5.64
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102061

Case Rosewill R6AR6-SL 0.8mm SECC 120mm Fan ATX Mid Tower $49.99 free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147045

DVD-RW Samsung 18X SATA DVD-RW Lightscribe black $37.99 free shipping
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151141

This gives a total of ~$580. You will have a new, fast and solid pc, totally capable of playing any of today's games. If gaming is your main purpose, change the video card for a 8800GTS and you will still have $70 of your $800 budget to upgrade to a E6420 if you want. If you do game but it is not your main priority, then the 1950Pro is perfect for you. Do not discard the hard disc as unnecessary because your old hard disk is ide and new mobos do not always support ide natively. You don't really need a sound card, all modern mobos have very good integrated solutions.

Well, what do you think?

Edit: I read the above post. Yes, if you can spare the extra, get a full tower.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

i guess it's time to give up the ghost...

thx for your imput, i'll check out those parts and see what happens.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

i guess it's time to give up the ghost...

thx for your imput, i'll check out those parts and see what happens.

 

[g-paw]

Once you narrow you choice of mobos down to 2 or 3, go to the mfg web site and check out the manuals for the boards you're considering. This will be what you'll be using during the build. Once you decide on the board and the company you want to get the RAM from, go to the RAM mfg site and see what RAM is compatible with the board, just enter the mfg and model number of the board. Also, go to newegg and make a Wish List of a couple of builds to price them. After you make your final decision you can post the parts for comments if you want.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

I like most of the parts that BigBlack suggested. Below are the parts that I am considering, let me know what you all think.

Case: LIAN LI PC-G70B Black Aluminum ATX Full Tower Computer Case

Video Card: SAPPHIRE 100185L Radeon X1950XT 512MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 VIVO HDCP Video Card

Mobo: GIGABYTE GA-965P-S3 LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard

CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 Allendale 1.8GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E4300

RAM: GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model GX22GB6400UDCA

Hard Drive: Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250820AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM


I do have a few questions as to what else I may need, and compatibility among the above items.

1. Will I need a CPU fan/heat sink or do they come with, and if so, is the stock heat sink/fan enough?

2. If I do want to add fans to my case in the future, will I be able to without having to replace my mobo?

3. With these larger video cards, will I have issues fitting it onto my mobo?

4. Is my 500W Antec PSU that I currently have powerful enough?

5. I'm not planning on getting a new DVD-R drive just yet as I'm assuming my old one is compatible and can float me by for a while. How can I tell?

6. Can I put my Audigy 2 and ethernet cards in the PCI slots of this new mobo or do i need newer versions?

As you'll see the only two things (i think) that I changed in BigBlack's suggestion were the case and the video card. I like the idea of having a nice big case as I've had nothing but heat issues with my current case and am hoping that this case will give me the space to upgrade or rebuild down the road. The video card is similar but double the memory, is it worth it or just overkill?

Again, thx for the imput!

 

[avarice]

The Lian Li Case is nice - no doubt about it. I like my Antec P180, and the ThermalTake Armour series is very popular as well.

I would suggest the Nvida 8800 GTS - it's one of the best cards out there - DX10 compatible, etc.

To answer some of your direct questions - the HS/Fan does come in the boxed CPU - and does a fair job - especially compared to the previous Intel offerings with the 478 pin CPUs. A good after market cooler is a good idea if you plan to over clock - a really good one is recommended if you plan on pushing the envelope. The arctic Cooler freezer Pro (below in my sig) is solid - though not intended for envelope pushing. Review the forums if that is what you plan to do.

Additional fans can be added to any case - depending on where you wish to drill the holes. If you plan to mod the case - you need to know where the fans will go and if they will fit with your existing drives. You will also need to take everything out - clean the case before and after the drilling to ensure that you get all of the metal flecks out - metal and circuitry are a bad combination.

You will not have a problem with the mother board - but if your case has drive bays which get in the way you will. Of the three cases I have mentioned, the only one which would be tight would be the P180 - though it would still fit.

The antec PSU you have should be enough - though you should go and calculate your power utilization to be sure. If you find you need more power, there are additional PSUs which are intended to power the graphics card and are the size of a CD ROM drive. They co-exist with the existing PSUs.

Your existing peripherals should be fine - though your ethernet card might be moot - as most motherboards have either 100Mb or 1000Mb ethernet built in. Also most new motherboards have decent sound - though many would question that statement. I would suggest using your sound card, and leaving the Ethernet out for now.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

Thanks for the feedback.

Mobo-

I don't know much about over clocking and won't try it out at first; I'd like to learn more about it and give it a go once things are up and running though. I've read a bit about it and gather that I may need specialized cooling on the north/south bridge as well as better cooling on the cpu. If I remember correctly, my PSU required a 3-pin connector on my current mobo. I assume this was to monitor fan speed of the second fan on the PSU, though I don't see that as an option in my bios--an entire conversation altogether.

I guess my main concern regarding my mobo was having enough 3-pin connectors for the fans I may add later on in order to over clock the cpu. I don't need the latest and greatest mobo, but just want to make sure that the one i'm considering (GIGABYTE GA-965P-S3) isn't limiting in this regard.

Video Card-

I don't need anything blazing fast as my current, yet outdated, P4 rig seems to do the job just fine, when it's not crashing, rebooting, or a myriad of other games it likes to play.

As for the gpu, I've heard the X1950 series is suitable for what I do. I don't play the most current FPS's or anything, but I do play some MMO's, namely Lineage II. I've heard that the Nvidia stuff conflicts with it, but I know some people prefer Nvidia over ATI as well as the other way around. I've also heard that it's better to buy the the directX 9 cards anyhow as the the directX 10 cards are overpriced atm and have driver issues being new.

I'll do some research and take a look at that Nvidia 8800 GTS. The two cards I've liked have been the X1950 pro and the X1950 XT. If anyone has any more imput on any of those three cards, your thoughts are most appreciated.

cheers

 

[g-paw]

If I read the specs on the Liam case correctly, it comes with 3 120mm fans and I can't imagine you'd ever need more than this. In fact, if you ever pushed the machine to the point these fans couldn't handle the heat, you're very likely have to move to liquid cooling. Unlike the old P4s, the new CPUs don't generate nearly as much heat.

 

[foxrocks]

Paying $200+ for a case while skimping on the graphics card seems odd to me. I know you don't 'need' an 8800GTS to play Lineage, but I'm sure it will have a more significant impact on your gaming enjoyment in the future than a flashy case.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

It may seem odd, but I'd rather buy a 2nd or 3rd generation DX10 card if and when i need one and not now.

Besides, the case will last a long time, whereas I can always upgrade the card if needed.

It's flashy? I kinda thought it was the antithesis of flashy with no lit up fans or case window.

At any rate, i'm playing on a P4 with a Radeon 9600 series so any upgrade, I'm suspecting, will be a huge improvement.

Thanks for the imput though, I'm still not sold on Nvidia's stuff as i've read alot about people having problems with them, at least playing the games that I play.

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

By the way, if anyone can suggest a cheaper case of comparable quality, do let me know--i'd rather put the money elsewhere though i am tired of my dumpy Gateway case, which is the real motivation.

I've looked at the Antec 900 and the P180B and some of the thermaltake armor stuff but, man, those lame doors on that thermaltake....I dunno, i just can't get over them.

As for the antec, i have a hard time mounting my PSU on the bottom, though i like the idea. My PSU has a bottom fan, so I'm a bit ambivalent but I might try it.

I also agree with a previous poster, that a full tower is in order.

BTW: how much of a difference does a 800 Mhz fsb vs higher rated fsb's make?

 

[bigblack]

By the way, if anyone can suggest a cheaper case of comparable quality, do let me know--i'd rather put the money elsewhere though i am tired of my dumpy Gateway case, which is the real motivation.

I've looked at the Antec 900 and the P180B and some of the thermaltake armor stuff but, man, those lame doors on that thermaltake....I dunno, i just can't get over them.

As for the antec, i have a hard time mounting my PSU on the bottom, though i like the idea. My PSU has a bottom fan, so I'm a bit ambivalent but I might try it.

I also agree with a previous poster, that a full tower is in order.

BTW: how much of a difference does a 800 Mhz fsb vs higher rated fsb's make?

To answer your last question first, i would say that it is considerable. Your first oc will be exactly that: to take the E4300 from 800 to 1066 (200FSB to 266FSB). For some applications the % speed difference is directly proportionate to the overclock percentage. For most games, it simply doesn't matter because the bottleneck is the video card and not the cpu.

As for the case, this one is an excellent full tower. Find it in black and you will have one of the most solid, roomy and well ventilated cases.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119042

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

Thank's, I really like that case. Seems to have everything I need/want.

About the FSB, I think my question may have led you to think i know more than i do...

I was looking at cpu/mobo comob's and was seeing a gigabyte mobo with a FSB of 1333/1066 for the same price as one with a FSB of 800 mhz.
I was thinking of upgrading the cpu to one with a 1066 FSB and was wondering if that kind of an upgrade was noticable/ worthwile.

The combination i had in mind was:

CPU

Motherboard

 

[bigblack]

Thank's, I really like that case. Seems to have everything I need/want.

About the FSB, I think my question may have led you to think i know more than i do...

I was looking at cpu/mobo comob's and was seeing a gigabyte mobo with a FSB of 1333/1066 for the same price as one with a FSB of 800 mhz.
I was thinking of upgrading the cpu to one with a 1066 FSB and was wondering if that kind of an upgrade was noticable/ worthwile.

The combination i had in mind was:

CPU

Motherboard

Ok, let's start with some basics. All this is valid only for Intel cpus, AMD uses a different architecture.
Intel cpus use a special channel for cpu-ram communication called FSB (front side bus). For older Pentium 4 cpus, this channel or bus was clocked at 533 or 800 Mhz. In fact a "base frequency" is quadrupled to get these numbers. For example a FSB of 800 means that the cpu is communicating with the memory at the speed of 200Mhz quad pumped (200Mhz*4). I don't know if it is clear because there are many technical details involved, but the bottom line is that we refer to the FSB using two numbers that are actually the same: a base frequency (133Mhz, 200Mhz, 266Mhz, 333Mhz) or this base frequency but multiplied by four (533Mhz, 800Mhz, 1066Mhz, 1333Mhz). Newer intel cpus, namely the Core 2 Duos use either the 800Mhz (200Mhz quad pumped or 200*4) or the 1066Mhz bus (266Mhz quad pumped or 266*4). Near the end of 2007 the FSB of newer cpus will reach 1333Mhz (or 333Mhz*4). I suppose that it is clearer after that.

Now, a mobo that supports 800Mhz (200*4) can only accept older P4 and Celeron cpus. Most modern mobos support up to 1333Mhz officially but can be overclocked up to 1600Mhz or even more.

Your choice of mobo is excellent for the money. Depending on your needs and your budget you can install any C2D currently on the market. For $800 i would rather advise you to get a P35 mobo and a E4300 and upgrade to a better processor by spring next year, or wait until July 22nd and get a dirt cheap E6600. If you stick with a $600 budget, you have my full build from newegg some posts up. In any case, i would not advise you to get an E6320, especially at this time. You can overclock the E4300 very, very easily (refer to my previous post!) to E6600 speeds and save the E4300-E6320 price difference towards a P35 mobo that has support for future processors. This will permit you to easily upgrade when necessary.

A solid P35 mobo:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128050

 

[FirstTimeBuilder]

Thank's. I think that makes total sense, as well as your first recommendation.

Here's what I intend to buy. What do you think?

CASE:

COOLER MASTER CM Stacker STC-T01-UW Black/ Silver Aluminum Bezel, SECC Chassis ATX Full Tower

MOBO:

GIGABYTE GA-G33M-DS2R LGA 775 Intel G33 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard

*Edit* I think i'm going to go with, what looks like, the non-micro ATX version: GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3R. Hopefully it will be roomier and with the same specs.

CPU:

Intel Core 2 Duo E4300 Allendale 1.8GHz LGA 775 Processor Model BX80557E4300

GPU:

SAPPHIRE 100176L Radeon X1950PRO 256MB GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card

RAM:

GeIL 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400)

Hard Drive:

Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 ST3250820AS 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s

It seems like a great upgrade from what i'm running now, with tons of potential to upgrade in the future. It should be a fun first build.

With my 500W antec PSU I should be off and running soon; this should be a fun first build.




Am I good to go?