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I cant convince my dad to build so....

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June 5, 2007 12:50:08 AM

my dad is going to get this PC...

http://www.peachdirect.com/product.tml?sku=RX900AA%23AB...

and theres nothing i can do to stop him, i tryed to tell him to build one but nope he wont listen, i was wondering if i will be able to OC it? the ram in it is probably slow, and the motherboard is a Intel 945G, is there anyway i can OC it and what do you suggest???

More about : convince dad build

a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 12:57:31 AM

Nope, you will not be able to OC.

The BIOS in brandname PCs have no OC'ing capabilities at all; except maybe Alienware.
June 5, 2007 12:57:51 AM

At least it isn;t a DELL .................


The allendale looks oceable - but don;t expect much if you don;t get discrete graphics
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a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 12:59:37 AM

Quote:
my dad is going to get this PC...

http://www.peachdirect.com/product.tml?sku=RX900AA%23AB...

and theres nothing i can do to stop him, i tryed to tell him to build one but nope he wont listen, i was wondering if i will be able to OC it? the ram in it is probably slow, and the motherboard is a Intel 945G, is there anyway i can OC it and what do you suggest???


Hopefully the 945G MB will come will a PCI-E 16x slot. You can buy a good PCIE graphics card and accompolish a huge upgrade from the onboard graphics chip you will otherwise be using. I use an ASUS MB 945G with an ATI 1800xt. The 945G chipset is a good enough overclocker, but not close the the 965 chipsets. I can O'c my 805-D from 2.6 to 3.5 on the 945G. That's about the chipsets limit, but still pretty good. I'm sure you can O'c the C2D, but getting a good graphics card is more important. Check to be sure the MB has a PCIE expansion slot.
a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 1:01:13 AM

You are probably right.
June 5, 2007 1:56:28 AM

i read somewhere that you have to have 667mhz ram or better to OC is this true?
June 5, 2007 2:48:37 AM

You can probably out do that system if you built it.

$200 for a decent proc.
$150 for a good mobo
$120 vista h. premium or bout $180 for vista ultimate (BOTH OEM)
$100 decent hd.
$70-80 2 GB DD2 667
$30-50 DVD-R
- x2 Just for kicks
$100 Nice Case Whatever flavor you like

Totals around the same, price is a bit off cuz I'm kinda guessing from the prices I saw earlier this week.
a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 2:54:43 AM

Quote:
You can probably out do that system if you built it.

$200 for a decent proc.
$150 for a good mobo
$120 vista h. premium or bout $180 for vista ultimate (BOTH OEM)
$100 decent hd.
$70-80 2 GB DD2 667
$30-50 DVD-R
- x2 Just for kicks
$100 Nice Case Whatever flavor you like

Totals around the same, price is a bit off cuz I'm kinda guessing from the prices I saw earlier this week.


Nice.

Now all you have to do is talk to the OP's dad and convince him building is better than buying. Good luck 'cause if he's not going to listen to his own son, I doubt he'll listen to a complete stranger.
June 5, 2007 3:16:03 AM

Quote:
my dad is going to get this PC...

http://www.peachdirect.com/product.tml?sku=RX900AA%23AB...

and theres nothing i can do to stop him, i tryed to tell him to build one but nope he wont listen, i was wondering if i will be able to OC it? the ram in it is probably slow, and the motherboard is a Intel 945G, is there anyway i can OC it and what do you suggest???


it is very sad thing. you know......... you can have way better system with this budget. Good luck.
a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 3:40:10 AM

I did not see any information on the slots or bays in the PC. In particular, there was absolutely no listing that it had a PCI-e slot to add a good graphics card later, nor any information about other available PCI slots or how many if any internal bays are available.

If you cannot confirm the existence of a PCI-e slot, then maybe you can explain to your Dad how silly it is to buy a PC without one.
June 5, 2007 3:45:46 AM

On the up and up, even if you don't OC that system it will still be reasonably fast.
June 5, 2007 3:51:08 AM

Agreed, it is a sad day in computerland.
To the OP: No that HP won't overclock if it's like their other ones. HP computers have very very little in the way of BIOS options. And you will probably get their signature restore on the hidden partition with no disks. So when your hard drive takes a dump you will have to call India and try to explain how you need the disks because of a HDD failure over and over again, and hope you can make tech support understand what a SMART HDD hardware failure is. Then you might get the six disk set that only allows you to create the hidden partition. Also HP likes to use 2/3 size POS power supplies, and some of them like to eat HDDs. When you need to replace the PS you need to move everything into another case because a real PS won't fit into the original case. Therefore you may get the building experience without the quality. Tell your dad not to buy a POS HP... or Dell, or Gateway for that matter. Not to mention you might actually learn something if you are not already proficient in computer building.
June 5, 2007 4:02:05 AM

Quote:
Nope, you will not be able to OC.

The BIOS in brandname PCs have no OC'ing capabilities at all; except maybe Alienware.


I'm pretty sure most enthusiast builders (like Falcon-NW) allow their customers to have overclocking options in the BIOS. Alienware may in fact NOT have those options, since it's been bought by Dell.
June 5, 2007 4:03:51 AM

Most brand name PC's are coming with PCI-e expansion slots. Everyone aside from the very cheap pc manufac's have seen how damaging it is to sell a computer with no future upgrade ability.

One thing to do before your warranty is up is to call HP support and tell them to send you the restore disks. They usually dont ask too many questions if it's still under warranty. But once the warranty is up, it's sometimes more expensive to get them to ship you restore disks than it is to buy a full OEM copy of windows.

This PC is a total ripoff, honestly. I just put together a PC with the same proc (For overclocking) A good p965 overclocking board, a decent coolermaster case (Something cheap and breathable) and 4 gigs of 800mhz ram for 600 or so on NewEgg.com. But I'll also be saving quite a bit of money on MSDN copies of the OS, and other vital software such as Anti-virus. But I wont have to deal with HP's dreaded and notorious Bloat-ware! Yay!

If you can, show him these forum posts, and pray that it will change his mind. If not, I really do pity you. Heh.
June 5, 2007 4:16:30 AM

Quote:
...software such as Anti-virus.
Might I suggest AVG antivirus and antispyware. They are free for personal use and won't pig your computer out like, God help us, McAfee and Norton. And of course you have Lavasoft's Ad-Aware and Spybot S&D.
June 5, 2007 4:29:56 AM

Avast! is nice...for a free app
June 5, 2007 4:40:37 AM

Quote:
...software such as Anti-virus.
Might I suggest AVG antivirus and antispyware. They are free for personal use and won't pig your computer out like, God help us, McAfee and Norton. And of course you have Lavasoft's Ad-Aware and Spybot S&D.

I wouldnt waste my time with most of those. So far from an industry standpoint, symantec AV seems to be the best. Very little footprint, quick updates, and quick and professional UI. And it does the job of AVG, plus it can detect rootkits, and it will detect adware/spyware/malware.

And best of all? Most schools and uni's offer it completely free of cost to the student.

(It's hidiously overpriced for the average consumer though.)

Then again, the only thing I use a virus-scanner for is to scan other HD's on a rack-drive.
June 5, 2007 5:31:57 AM

Quote:
...software such as Anti-virus.
Might I suggest AVG antivirus and antispyware. They are free for personal use and won't pig your computer out like, God help us, McAfee and Norton. And of course you have Lavasoft's Ad-Aware and Spybot S&D.

I wouldnt waste my time with most of those. So far from an industry standpoint, symantec AV seems to be the best. Very little footprint, quick updates, and quick and professional UI. And it does the job of AVG, plus it can detect rootkits, and it will detect adware/spyware/malware.

And best of all? Most schools and uni's offer it completely free of cost to the student.

(It's hidiously overpriced for the average consumer though.)

Then again, the only thing I use a virus-scanner for is to scan other HD's on a rack-drive.

I used symantic's Norton system works years ago and it was sh!t. I killed all but the antivirus for $30-40 a year and it was bloated, but nowhere near as bad as McAfee, which is death to a computer. I like the Idea that they have a rootkit detector, I wasn't aware of that, but it still has a much larger footprint than AVG, and AVG updates every day or two, instead of once a week. Symantic Ghost has also caused me headaches, not often mind you, but big ones. Their all-in-one firewall antivirus etc. is maximum bloat. Symantec has gotten too big and they are starting to act like MS. Also, if I could get it free, I probably still wouldn't use it anymore. AVG free is the way to go, don't underestimate it.
June 5, 2007 5:44:38 AM

Whats he going to use it for?
June 5, 2007 1:24:20 PM

Quote:
...software such as Anti-virus.
Might I suggest AVG antivirus and antispyware. They are free for personal use and won't pig your computer out like, God help us, McAfee and Norton. And of course you have Lavasoft's Ad-Aware and Spybot S&D.

I wouldnt waste my time with most of those. So far from an industry standpoint, symantec AV seems to be the best. Very little footprint, quick updates, and quick and professional UI. And it does the job of AVG, plus it can detect rootkits, and it will detect adware/spyware/malware.

And best of all? Most schools and uni's offer it completely free of cost to the student.

(It's hidiously overpriced for the average consumer though.)

Then again, the only thing I use a virus-scanner for is to scan other HD's on a rack-drive.

I used symantic's Norton system works years ago and it was sh!t. I killed all but the antivirus for $30-40 a year and it was bloated, but nowhere near as bad as McAfee, which is death to a computer. I like the Idea that they have a rootkit detector, I wasn't aware of that, but it still has a much larger footprint than AVG, and AVG updates every day or two, instead of once a week. Symantic Ghost has also caused me headaches, not often mind you, but big ones. Their all-in-one firewall antivirus etc. is maximum bloat. Symantec has gotten too big and they are starting to act like MS. Also, if I could get it free, I probably still wouldn't use it anymore. AVG free is the way to go, don't underestimate it.

I think you're confusing Symantec's Norton Antivirus for Symantec Antivirus. Two completely different programs. And a Huge difference both in performance, and price.

I'll compare footprint size today, while I'm at work, and post here.
June 5, 2007 1:49:31 PM

900$ and Integrated graphic ?

for 900$ you can build a better spec comp with 8800gts 320Mb, 2gb ram.

Tell your dad that.

Sad indeed.
June 5, 2007 2:12:40 PM

Ask your Dad to post here.

Have him post his reasons for selecting a pre-built vs a customer.
What are his concerns for a custom built PC?

What is wrong with the PC?

The first issue is the CPU.
The E4300 runs at a default FSB of 800Mhz.
This really kills performance and makes it far slower then an E6300 at default speeds even though they run at basically the same CPU speed since it has a FSB of 1066.

In a custom computer, you can adjust the FSB so the E4300 runs at a much faster speed. This will allow the E4300 to run much faster without even overclocking the CPU.

The motherboard is also very old.
While integrated graphics are bad, the 945g are not nearly as good as 965g. This means even watching Video on this PC will not be great.

Putting in a decent video card may not be possible since the PSU is likely not going to be able to handle much.

The HDD may not be very good either.
They did not specify PMR recording.
PMR drives are faster due to higher density of data.
The higher density generally means less platters which improves reliability due to less moving parts.
The data on the platters themselves is also safer since the orienation of the charges causes them to interfere with each other less.
June 5, 2007 2:13:47 PM

Ask your Dad to post here.

Have him post his reasons for selecting a pre-built vs a customer.
What are his concerns for a custom built PC?

What is wrong with the PC?

The first issue is the CPU.
The E4300 runs at a default FSB of 800Mhz.
This really kills performance and makes it far slower then an E6300 at default speeds even though they run at basically the same CPU speed since it has a FSB of 1066.

In a custom computer, you can adjust the FSB so the E4300 runs at a much faster speed. This will allow the E4300 to run much faster without even overclocking the CPU.

The motherboard is also very old.
While integrated graphics are bad, the 945g are not nearly as good as 965g. This means even watching Video on this PC will not be great.

Putting in a decent video card may not be possible since the PSU is likely not going to be able to handle much.

The HDD may not be very good either.
They did not specify PMR recording.
PMR drives are faster due to higher density of data.
The higher density generally means less platters which improves reliability due to less moving parts.
The data on the platters themselves is also safer since the orienation of the charges causes them to interfere with each other less.
June 5, 2007 2:15:56 PM

OK, lets say your Dad refuses to build.

Have him buy a decent PC such as this one from Dell Outlet....
It's $300 cheaper which he can use to buy 3year on site support which is great. Beats the HP warranty by a mile.

This PC has far better graphics and a CPU that will kill the other.
Its More PC, Less Money, and a much better warranty.




XPS 410
(System Identifier: DDB9C362)


XPS 410 Mini-Tower: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6420 (4MB L2 cache,2.13GHZ,1066FSB)
Genuine Windows Vista Business

System Price : $699.00

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Operating System
Genuine Windows Vista Business
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Memory
2 GB DDR2 Non-ECC SDRAM 677MHz (2 DIMMs)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Floppy Drive
1.44 MB Floppy Disk Drive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hard Disk Drive
80 GB EIDE SATA Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Video
256MB nVidia Geforce 7300LE TurboCache
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Certified Refurbished
Certified Refurbished
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Base
XPS 410 Mini-Tower: Intel Core 2 Duo Processor E6420 (4MB L2 cache,2.13GHZ,1066FSB)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Media Bay
16X DVD ROM Drive
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Software Upgrade
Corel Paint Shop Pro XI - Advanced photo editing
Microsoft Works 8.5
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardware Upgrade
USB Keyboard
Dell Optical USB 2-button Mouse
June 5, 2007 2:26:29 PM

Just tested the footprint between Symantec AV, AVG AV, and Norton AV 2007.

With all services taken into account, AVG is using 6.2mb more than Symantec AV, and Norton is using 38mb more than AVG.
a b B Homebuilt system
a b V Motherboard
June 5, 2007 2:28:09 PM

Quote:
At least it isn;t a DELL .................


If he's not building his own, he'd be better off with a Dell than that HP. For $50 less than the HP, an XPS 410 would come with the keyboard and mouse, 19" lcd and 2 gigs of ram. It would also include a low end video card that would certainly be better than onboard graphics. If a monitor is not needed the cost would drop to $730, which would allow for a cpu and video upgrade that would make the Dell a more powerful computer for the same cost as the HP.
June 5, 2007 2:49:06 PM

Quote:
my dad is going to get this PC...

http://www.peachdirect.com/product.tml?sku=RX900AA%23AB...

and theres nothing i can do to stop him, i tryed to tell him to build one but nope he wont listen, i was wondering if i will be able to OC it? the ram in it is probably slow, and the motherboard is a Intel 945G, is there anyway i can OC it and what do you suggest???


How can I say this? You being ripped off...

If you look at HP page (and it's shop), for this kind of money you get better!

something like this http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can...

The OEM pcs usually don't have any options to overclock/better the performance, and usually are made of "value" parts that don't even oc all that... Moreover somethings like the psu are usually underpowered (sometimes even at its limits).

However you get the assurance of a name brand (whatever that means) that if anything goes wrong they will solve the issue (people believe it until the first time there are problems).
June 5, 2007 3:17:45 PM

At least try to get him read posts in this thread...
June 5, 2007 4:25:20 PM

Quote:
At least it isn;t a DELL .................


If he's not building his own, he'd be better off with a Dell than that HP. For $50 less than the HP, an XPS 410 would come with the keyboard and mouse, 19" lcd and 2 gigs of ram. It would also include a low end video card that would certainly be better than onboard graphics. If a monitor is not needed the cost would drop to $730, which would allow for a cpu and video upgrade that would make the Dell a more powerful computer for the same cost as the HP.
Yeah. I think that of all the builders out there Dell is one of the best. I had my sister buy a Dell recently and it's been absolutely great. Dell Outlet rocks. :D 
June 5, 2007 4:45:07 PM

Perhaps you should consider some less conventional methods. Clearly, one parent should not stand between you and your dream computer... do what you must.

*hands the OP a hammer*
June 5, 2007 5:01:42 PM

That is an expensive site.

not just for pc, but for almost evrything in there.
June 5, 2007 6:23:15 PM

My old Dell didn't even come with an AGP yet they said it was good for gaming. Screw Dell and their eastern tech support. HP isn't any better though kid. Your dad is just afraid of what he doesn't understand or he's unmotivated to learn. Building a PC today is like putting air in your tires. It's not hard. Some crap to get you started....

Just buy everything on Newegg, it'll be cheap and easiest for you. (www.newegg.com)

Intel E6600 Core2Duo processor
EVGA 8800GTS 320mb video card

2 sticks of matching 1GB DDR2-667mhz ram (or better yet 800mhz ram, although you may have to set the timings in the bios and they'll cost a tad more) Brand? Many good ones, anyone here can suggest more on this and find you a good price on good sticks.

Some might ask why I said EVGA, it's because they sell the most video cards of anyone and they're pretty good. They also tend to be near the cheapest. I'm trying to make this simple for him.

PSU suggestions? I'd go no lower than a 600w PSU.

Motherboard suggestions? Pick a brand, and find one with an Intel ICH8 and the Intel P975 chipset.

For a case, you're going to want a mid or full ATX case. Any will do, but remove any PSU's that come with it (recycle it or save it for use in an older computer with a dead or dying PSU). Installation of the parts is fairly simple if you can follow directions. There are a number of guides online and the forums are always here for you. Ask away. We disagree and act like jerks to each other on here a LOT, but one thing we ALL agree on...building your own personal PC is just about always the way to go, both from a financial standpoint, and because it's more "yours".

We've helped 60 year old women and 14 year old boys build THEIR own PC's. Maybe it's time you guys give it a try. Work together on it, it's a great father/son hobby.
June 5, 2007 6:43:42 PM

Quote:
Perhaps you should consider some less conventional methods. Clearly, one parent should not stand between you and your dream computer... do what you must.

*hands the OP a hammer*

I seriously hope that if you ever have kids they are hellraisers. You deserve it man. ;) 
June 5, 2007 6:51:36 PM

Quote:
Perhaps you should consider some less conventional methods. Clearly, one parent should not stand between you and your dream computer... do what you must.

*hands the OP a hammer*

I seriously hope that if you ever have kids they are hellraisers. You deserve it man. ;) 
If I have any, it'll be an accident.
!