Who do I believe

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

If it says 1080i, it is HD resolution but the program you are watching may
only have been shot with a 4:3 camera and not a wide screen 19:9 one. This
happens quite often on the stations which are otherwise HD. Most of the
commercials are still 4:3.

1080i and 780p look very similar. Remember 1080i is interlaced, 780p is
progressive so they look very close. If the 1080 was 1080p it would look
considerably better.



<harri85274@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1106615060.397095.33910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>I have the new rca box that tells me when I'm watching hdtv. On my 55"
> inch screen, hd is shown with shaded line above and below, when I
> believe its a 16:9 show. In CBS I sometimes see it with those lines and
> also side lines. The hd lights up on the box indicating that I am
> watching hd. The info box also says its 1080. Sometimes on ABC, it says
> 780 resolution. Is this correct? If not, why the hell do they make it
> difficult to determine when you are actually watching hd and sd and
> whatever? Sometimes I can't tell the difference between digital and hd,
> and don't tell me I would know the difference if its hd. There doesn't
> seem to be much difference between 780 and 1080.
>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Being a CBS station, we set our HDTV digital encoder to always output a
1080i format signal. When we are broadcasting upconverted analog programs,
we "insert" our 480i picture in the middle of the 1080i signal with black
side bars. Your receiver will tell you that you are watching HD, although I
am actually only transmitting a 480i signal.

Why would I do such a thing? It takes about 2 or 3 seconds for my
encoder to change formats. If I were to actually switch formats between
broadcasting a true 480i signal and a true1080i signal, my encoder would
burp every time I changed the format. This would cause your HD set to also
burp (picture freeze or pixelate) while it locked to the new format.

This would not be too bad most of the time, since most of my broadcast
day is spent sending out 480i pictures. During CBS HD programs however, I
would have to switch between 480i and 1080i for all local commercials. This
would cause you to lose a few seconds of the program while my encoder and
your set locked on the new format going into and coming from every local
break. I doubt you would care about losing the first few seconds of my
commercial break, but you might not be too happy missing the first few
seconds of the program at the end of the break.

As for knowing when you are watching SD or HD: We leave the side bars
on during SD programs. We do not stretch our 4:3 SD picture to fill out
your 16:9 screen. We thought that it just looked tacky with that much
distortion and resolution loss. If you don't see the side bars on my TV
station, the picture you're watching is true HDTV; no question about it.
Well, almost.
We broadcast "Star Trek: Enterprise", which is recorded (analog) in
letterbox format. We change the encoder to "letterbox", which zooms in and
fills out the 16:9 screen. Since it only zooms, it does not distort the
picture but it does decrease the resolution. One of our ardent HDTV fans
didn't like the "postage stamp" picture on his widescreen set, and he asked
us to do this. We do it for this program and any movie we get in analog
letterbox format. BTW: changing between "keyhole" and "letterbox" does not
cause any burps in my digital encoder.

Not one viewer has commented negatively about the black side bars on my
SD pictures. We had one viewer who stated that he liked my black side bars
(probably because the "other guys" have gray side bars).

The difference between 720p and 1080i? Both are High Definition TV
formats, but (IMHO) 720p produces better pictures when movement is involved.
1080i makes a better picture if there is limited movement. If you look hard
enough (at a static picture) you will see that 1080i produces a better
picture than 720p. In the real world of moving pictures, I doubt most
people could tell the difference between 1080i and 720p until the movement
becomes really fast (NASCAR, for instance).


Richard



<harri85274@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1106615060.397095.33910@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> I have the new rca box that tells me when I'm watching hdtv. On my 55"
> inch screen, hd is shown with shaded line above and below, when I
> believe its a 16:9 show. In CBS I sometimes see it with those lines and
> also side lines. The hd lights up on the box indicating that I am
> watching hd. The info box also says its 1080. Sometimes on ABC, it says
> 780 resolution. Is this correct? If not, why the hell do they make it
> difficult to determine when you are actually watching hd and sd and
> whatever? Sometimes I can't tell the difference between digital and hd,
> and don't tell me I would know the difference if its hd. There doesn't
> seem to be much difference between 780 and 1080.
>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
news:jItJd.20254$Gj.19432@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> Let'see. 1080i has 1080x1920 lines of resolution. 720 has 720 x 1280.
> You don't need to be Einstein to do the math here folks. They do NOT look
> similar. As far as your brain is concerned 1080 has DOUBLE the static
> resolution. And the ONLY place you MIGHT see a difference between 1080i
> and 1080p is in VERY high horizontal motion...otherwise, same resolution.
>
> Of course, if you can blink your eyes at exactly 1/30th of a second, and
> discern individual frames, then you might see more of a difference. <g>

So, are you saying here that they DO look alike or DON'T look alike? What
difference do you think it would make on a screen that has one native
resolution, such as my Sony LCD RP that shows everything at 788p?

Seems to me that other conditions involved in getting the final picture onto
your screen create most of the picture differences we see. For example, the
substantial difference between the look of the FOX game and the CBS game on
Sunday was not due to the different resolutions, I think, since other
football games at 720p, including FOX's, have looked MUCH better than what
FOX came up with on that day. ESPN, seems to me, has the best-looking
football video, for its Sunday night games, and those are in 720p.

I'm still waiting for the first HD "blimp cam", though. The ONE place you
REALLY need HD! The stadium from a blimp in SD on an HD set looks
approximately like a big cow patty.

mack
austin

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

curmudgeon wrote:
> What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!

You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
native resolution.

Strange that 1080i is mostly found on smaller sets where if it had any
advantage (NOT), it would be more apparent on a large screen.

Now 1080P is another story. But you can't fit 1080P into a 6 MHz DTV
channel with MPEG2. Matter of fact you really can't fit a 1080i program
into a 6 MHz channel can you. I think you could fit 1080P into a 6 MHz
channel with MPEG4. Especially as it matures. It is a young codec with
unknown efficiencies still to be discovered. In the meantime broadcast
1080i is a joke played on us by CBS and Sony.

Maybe Congress could be persuaded to revisit the compression scheme
requirement, MPEG2, and drop it. And while they are at it, since this
would obsolete all current receivers anyway, they could revisit the
modulation 8-VSB at the same time.

Maybe this time they could test it first against all comers like COFDM
DVB-T, ISDB-T and DMB-T all far superior to our 8-VSB.

Bob Miller

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>curmudgeon wrote:
>>
>>>What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!
>>
>>You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
>>especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
>>native resolution.
>
>
> Most large CRT rear projection hdtv's are 1080i.
>

Be careful, bob is in denial about 8-VSB. Pointing out more facts of
life to him might just be too much.

Matthew

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

1080i and 720p do look very similar. This is evident in all of the
discussions about which format is better. If there would be a clear winner,
there wouldn't be discussions, right?
Here's why they look similar:
http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_54a.pdf look at page 19 and 24.
Both signals, 1080i and 720p use the same sample rate. This implies that
they both can carry the same amount of information.
Look at the bandwidth calculation (horizontal resolutio x vertical
resolution x vertical frequency):
1080i:
1920x1080x60/2 (/2 because it's interlaced!) = 62208000 = 62.2 MHz
720p:
1280x720x60 =55296000=55.3MHz
480i:
704x480x60/2 =10137600 =
10.1MHz.
Standard NTSC broadcast =6 MHz
Again, 1080i and 720p are very similar. And yes, of course they fit into the
allocated 6MHz broadcast channel. I know the math is right (you really don't
have to be Einstein to multiply a few numbers, do you?) and I see it with my
own eyes, every day.




"Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
news:10vd8c45odltcb0@corp.supernews.com...
> cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>curmudgeon wrote:
>>>
>>>>What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!
>>>
>>>You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
>>>especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
>>>native resolution.
>>
>>
>> Most large CRT rear projection hdtv's are 1080i.
>>
>
> Be careful, bob is in denial about 8-VSB. Pointing out more facts of life
> to him might just be too much.
>
> Matthew

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Why would the fox broadcast on sunday be so good for some, and bad for
others? I don' think fox has 2 sets of hd cameras at every game??

My broadcast over comcast was PERFECT. Except those blimp shots...LOL. I
watched cbs/steelers and it didn't have near the quality for me. But I know
that's comcast's fault....obviously.

Don

"Mack McKinnon" <MckinnonRemoveThis@tvadmanDeleteThisAsWell.com> wrote in
message news:MZtJd.65403 For example, the
> substantial difference between the look of the FOX game and the CBS game
> on Sunday was not due to the different resolutions, I think, since other
> football games at 720p, including FOX's, have looked MUCH better than what
> FOX came up with on that day. ESPN, seems to me, has the best-looking
> football video, for its Sunday night games, and those are in 720p.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <aGDJd.5625$YD5.5095@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>>curmudgeon wrote:
>>>
>>>>What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!
>>>
>>>You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
>>>especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
>>>native resolution.
>>
>>
>> Most large CRT rear projection hdtv's are 1080i.
>>
>
> I really don't know, how well are they selling? All I hear about is DLP,
> 720P max and plasma which are mostly 480P and 720P max.
>
DLP at 1080 is going to be relatively available soon (if not already.)

John

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
> cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
> > Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> >>curmudgeon wrote:
> >>
> >>>What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!
> >>
> >>You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
> >>especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
> >>native resolution.
> >
> >
> > Most large CRT rear projection hdtv's are 1080i.
> >
>
> I really don't know, how well are they selling? All I hear about is DLP,
> 720P max and plasma which are mostly 480P and 720P max.
>
I don't know Bob, you are the one that said "You are right, 720P obviously
is better, they don't look similar, especially on most large format HDTV
sets which are overwhelmingly 720P native resolution". Why don't you tell
us?

> >>Strange that 1080i is mostly found on smaller sets where if it had any
> >>advantage (NOT), it would be more apparent on a large screen.
> >>
> >>Now 1080P is another story. But you can't fit 1080P into a 6 MHz DTV
> >>channel with MPEG2. Matter of fact you really can't fit a 1080i program
> >>into a 6 MHz channel can you. I think you could fit 1080P into a 6 MHz
> >>channel with MPEG4. Especially as it matures. It is a young codec with
> >>unknown efficiencies still to be discovered. In the meantime broadcast
> >>1080i is a joke played on us by CBS and Sony.
> >>
> >>Maybe Congress could be persuaded to revisit the compression scheme
> >>requirement, MPEG2, and drop it. And while they are at it, since this
> >>would obsolete all current receivers anyway, they could revisit the
> >>modulation 8-VSB at the same time.
> >>
> >>Maybe this time they could test it first against all comers like COFDM
> >>DVB-T, ISDB-T and DMB-T all far superior to our 8-VSB.
> >>
> >>Bob Miller
> >
> >
> > Chip
> >

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Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>>cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
>>
>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>curmudgeon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>What don't you understand in the sentence "They do NOT look similar"?!
>>>>
>>>>You are right, 720P obviously is better, they don't look similar,
>>>>especially on most large format HDTV sets which are overwhelmingly 720P
>>>>native resolution.
>>>
>>>
>>>Most large CRT rear projection hdtv's are 1080i.
>>>
>>
>>I really don't know, how well are they selling? All I hear about is DLP,
>>720P max and plasma which are mostly 480P and 720P max.
>>
>
> I don't know Bob, you are the one that said "You are right, 720P obviously
> is better, they don't look similar, especially on most large format HDTV
> sets which are overwhelmingly 720P native resolution". Why don't you tell
> us?
>

It is not in his nature to back up his claims with facts. It is also not
in his nature to be correct.

Matthew

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> John S. Dyson wrote:
>>>
>>> I really don't know, how well are they selling? All I hear about is
>>> DLP, 720P max and plasma which are mostly 480P and 720P max.
>>
>> DLP at 1080 is going to be relatively available soon (if not already.)
>
> Soon as in when and at what price? Probably the very top end.

A 1080p DLP set (the HLR5688W) will be available from Samsung next
month. List price will be $5000 for a 56" set, street price should be
less than that. So it'll definitely cost more than a 720p set, but the
pricing certainly isn't out of line.

Samsung has additional 1080p models coming along later in the year.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <m0SJd.6217$YD5.5236@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In stores that I visit DLP and Plasma dominate. Maybe I am too
> > dismissive of RPTV CRTs because I have never liked them. In fact I
> > have always found RPTV not very interesting with the exception of a
> > 1080P Sony SXRD 71 "
>
> The only RPTV CRT sets I have seen lately have been in low-end and
> mid-range stores (Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics, Best Buy, etc.)
> High-middle-range and high-end stores (Showcase Electronics, Jerry's,
> etc.) do not carry them at all around here.

Never heard of those stores. Where are they located?
Chip

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Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Michelle Steiner <michelle@michelle.org> wrote:
> In article <20050126183705.477$16@newsreader.com>,
> cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net wrote:
>
> > > The only RPTV CRT sets I have seen lately have been in low-end and
> > > mid-range stores (Circuit City, Ultimate Electronics, Best Buy, etc.)
> > > High-middle-range and high-end stores (Showcase Electronics, Jerry's,
> > > etc.) do not carry them at all around here.
> >
> > Never heard of those stores. Where are they located?
>
> Circuit City is a nationwide chain that sells all sorts of electronics
> equipment--and some of their stores also sell appliances and the like.
>
> Best Buy is another nationwide chain--well, not quite nationwide;
> they're not in Nebraska, the Dakotas or Nevada; there might be some
> other states they're not in because I didn't check them all.
>
> Ultimate Electronics is a chain in 14 states, mostly west of or
> bordering the Mississippi. (In Colorado, it's known as SoundTrack.)
>
> Jerry's is a Phoenix chain with two stores.
>
> Showcase is in Southern California and in Arizona. It's part of the
> Tweeter chain; the chain covers all the states bordering on Mexico and
> the Gulf of Mexico (except Mississippi and Louisiana), and the entire
> eastern seaboard and New England (except for Vermont)--plus Tennessee
> and Illinois.

I should have said that I know about CC and BB. They are here in CT.
The other ones are not here, although we do have Tweeter here.
Chip

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