Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

My dad changed his mind! sort of...

Tags:
  • Homebuilt
  • Quad Core
  • Hewlett Packard
  • Systems
Last response: in Systems
Share
June 9, 2007 3:41:43 AM

well he saw a quad-core HP PC, and decided to get that one. here it is
http://www.peachdirect.com/product.tml?sku=GC674AA%23AB...

i know it was a rip off for what you can build it for, but im not complaining, i blows the doors off the E4300 1 GB ram 320gb HD we were orginally going to get, he really liked the fact that it was much more future proof than the E4300, im going to put a better graphics card in it, but i am really low on money i have about a $140, i was looking at the X1950pro and the 7900GS these cost around $140, but i wont be able to get a new PSU, do you think the PSU in it will be able to run these cards? its probably only a 300-350watt psu, can any of you help me?

More about : dad changed mind sort

June 9, 2007 4:49:22 AM

i dont know... i doubt they would put a quad core into a 350w pc... Though i have seen weirder. Anyways. For such a psu to run a 1950... Highly NOT recommended. I wouldn't put a card like taht in anything less that 500w personally (well maybe 450 if it was made by a really reputable company).
June 9, 2007 11:40:57 AM

I'd never buy a pre-built pc. I'd much rather for a few hundred less, get faster ram (they always use pc2 5300), a faster dvd burner, a nicer case, something better than the $10 350w psu dell, hp, ect uses, a bigger monitor, and somether better than a GeForce LE video card.
Related resources
June 9, 2007 12:43:32 PM

i'm not sure of the link but there is a psu calculator that can tell you exactly how much your components will run, if you find that aand either look on the sticker on the side of the psu to determine size or call and ask/ you can make an informed decision on wether or not you can use those cards. i agree with the guy above though I would think that with a quad and a 350G HD it would be 400+ but pre builts have to skimp somewhere. you may find a nice used one on craigslist if you need to upgrade it too.

good luck
June 9, 2007 1:54:11 PM

Quote:
I'd never buy a pre-built pc. I'd much rather for a few hundred less, get faster ram (they always use pc2 5300), a faster dvd burner, a nicer case, something better than the $10 350w psu dell, hp, ect uses, a bigger monitor, and somether better than a GeForce LE video card.
Back in the 90's that was true, however nowadays you break even building you own system, or sometimes buying a pre built is cheaper, that being said, having control over which components go in your system is what keeps most people building ther own systems.
June 9, 2007 2:21:42 PM

Quote:
I'd never buy a pre-built pc. I'd much rather for a few hundred less, get faster ram (they always use pc2 5300), a faster dvd burner, a nicer case, something better than the $10 350w psu dell, hp, ect uses, a bigger monitor, and somether better than a GeForce LE video card.
Back in the 90's that was true, however nowadays you break even building you own system, or sometimes buying a pre built is cheaper, that being said, having control over which components go in your system is what keeps most people building ther own systems.

Actually, I did a test on that. I was trying to determine what would be the lowest cost build I could do with the parts that are out there, retail. Well, after coming about $10 from a full build (including monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers), I wondered how much I could get it from dell. Well, I had to pump up the dell and the computer I was pricing a little to get nearly matching parts (Dell's mobo's are a little tailored) and I found I was about a hundred to a hundred and fifty less with my build. Once you figured tax and added shipping to the parts. If you look at the really high end, the new tech builds and high end components, you will find you pay allot less if you build it yourself.
June 9, 2007 2:47:27 PM

While there are many times that a prebuilt will be cheaper they generally charge ridiculous amounts for the upgrades to high end components. That means that normally if you want to go high end then you can do it for less if you build it yourself.

You do have to consider what tech support and full system warranties are worth to you though. Also many people neglect the cost of the operating system that compes with the machine. My OEM copy cost $125 that often makes the difference at the upper middle ranges.

I only built my machine because I wanted to have raid array's and they were not yet offered by Dell. I also like to know the type and quality of the components in my machines (HDD, RAM, PS, and MB primarily worry me), Though at least the newer dells I have looked inside of have standard PSs and MBs unlike the 90's when then had the f'd up power connectors.
June 9, 2007 3:06:23 PM

That system I was talking about earlier, when I was pricing to build, included OS too, and had much better PSU and ram. If you buy the system at low to mid range prebult with no customization, then yes, you might come out ahead on price, but you would have VERY little room to upgrade with. As for the tech support, I worked Dell's when it was actually good, and even then it wasn't worth it. The only reason to buy a prebuilt is if you don't know enough to build your own, otherwise build your own, You'll be happier in the long run.
June 9, 2007 3:32:35 PM

Up front let me say im sorry. That PC will drop in price by $250 next month as the new quad price will be $266.

The power supply in HP's are cheap and will only handle a low end GPU. Worst yet 99% of all HP/Compaq's are proprietary mean PSU, mobo, and case will only work with HP hardware. You are not stuck with only a 350w PSU as you can pay upwards of $200 just to get a better one.

Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium would be nice if it was the 64bit version. Sorry to say its not as all HP sales is the 32bit Vista. This means you will be forced to upgrading the OS if you ever upgrade your RAM as 32bit only address 3.3 to 2.5GB's. The reason you got (2x1024MB & 2x512MB) at 3072MB instead of 2X2048MB at 4GB's. Say it with me Windows ME all over again.
http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopping/computer_can...

Why is this important to a GPU upgrade? Now if you install a Video card with more memory than your current GPU as GPU memory is counted on the max addressable RAM. You may end up reducing the amount of system memory Vista can use.

The Q6600 is the highest CPU sold for this model and I dont think HP will upgrade the bios for the 45nm Penry.

All in its an OK system for those who dont intend on changing anything but the RAM and OS.
June 9, 2007 3:37:13 PM

I have built 4 of my own in the past and I probably will continue to do so. However when I look at it lately I begin to wonder if it is really worth it. I happen to like to do but I no longer feel that I should be automatically telling people to build their own. Especially when I look at a lot of the deals that are out there. $400 off this machine or that, free monitors (somtimes even really nice ones), etc. I really have to pay attention these days to know of it is worth it.

I'm also happy to say that Dell's techsupport has made a good turn around, now they just have to keep it up long enough to get their reputation back. On the other hand I have had to deal with HP's tech support a couple of times lately and they are REALLY awfull.
June 9, 2007 4:19:03 PM

"Why is this important to a GPU upgrade? Now if you install a Video card with more memory than your current GPU as GPU memory is counted on the max addressable RAM. You may end up reducing the amount of system memory Vista can use."

i dont get what your saying here? Are you saying that i will get better preformance in FEAR from a 128MB 7300LE than a X1950pro or 7900GS?
Can someone please explain this to me?
June 9, 2007 4:33:22 PM

What Elbert was pointing out is that since 32 bit operating systems can only address a certain amount of memory ~3 GB if your computer has 3 GB and then you put in a card with 256 MB of memory in the machine it will be forced to ignore some of your main memory.

If you were able to get windows XP 64bit or Windows Vista 64bit from HP (they only sell 32 bit versions) then you could use all the system memory and the graphics memory. That is why HP sells a system with 2x1GB and 2x512 MB Ram sticks because windows can't use 4GB and people would complain.
June 9, 2007 4:39:37 PM

so would i need to upgrade my videocard for FEAR? or would i have enough memory to fun it well on my 7300LE? I getting real confused, i though Video ram and normal ram were different from each other?
June 9, 2007 4:53:36 PM

Video and System ram are different from eachother but wondows still has to work with a grand total. I don't know the requierments of fear but you can check out Tom's graphics charts to see how it will play FEAR at your resolution. Remember that the 7300 LE has very little (if any) memory of its own and actually uses a part of system memory. This makes the card a fair amount slower than the regular 7300 and it slows down your OS when the graphics chip is running memory requests (that happens a lot when you are in a game).
June 9, 2007 5:00:22 PM

The charts are available here. I don't see FEAR as one of their benchmarks any more but I'm sure someone here can tell you which remaining game will be the best comparison.
June 9, 2007 5:10:44 PM

I would also like to point out that the price drop coming soon will put allot of prebuilt systems even higher then if you build it, because they have stock that they need to use up.

If you can build your computer, then you can fix it, and with the warranty on most parts now, unless you get a 5 year warranty from a prebuilt, it's about the same with the time you have to put into T/Sing a problem.


If you can build your own system, you are better off doing so. If you can't then a prebuilt is the way to go.
June 9, 2007 5:23:43 PM

You need to explain this to your dad as he may get mad at you for his RAM going from 3072 to say 2816. If your dad calls HP they will tell him to get the max RAM he will have to upgrade to Vista 64bit or take out the new GPU. Your dad could get mad at HP and either way it could end up being bad for you. He may tell you take the GPU out then your stuck.

This may impact if you want get a GPU with 256 or 512MB's. IE the more video RAM the lower your main system RAM will go down. Here in I can tell you for a fact the 512MB will take the system RAM down. A 256MB GPU could only change the RAM total a little. It could be the exact amount of the GPU's memory.

Many things are counted in on the 32bit limit. The CPU's cache, system RAM, GPU memory, USB, bios, and ect... which counting the exact amount is very hard.

Now the 7900GS or the x1950 will beat the 7300LE no question. Do the upgrade if your dad is ok with some system memory loss. Your PSU may cant handle either of these GPU's and a better choice may be the HD2600xt for your PSU's sake.

Do you play middle school football?
June 9, 2007 10:56:37 PM


Thats refering to the CPU and we are talking about the OS. In a way the same problem but M$ wouldnt make Vista 64bit address an Exabyte. That said the post if off as todays CPU's RAM register is only 40bit or 48 virtual which comes to about 16 Petabytes.
June 10, 2007 8:15:25 AM

could you guys explain this to me in simpler terms?
June 10, 2007 9:13:11 AM

old hand


Joined: Jan 03, 2006
Posts: 897



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:32 am
Post subject: Re: My dad changed his mind! sort of... [in reply to: troy88]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The power supply in HP's are cheap and will only handle a low end GPU. Worst yet 99% of all HP/Compaq's are proprietary mean PSU, mobo, and case will only work with HP hardware. You are not stuck with only a 350w PSU as you can pay upwards of $200 just to get a better one.


this is wrong you can use any generic atx powersupply in hp's iv done it tons of times they follow the standard atx standards and wiring :lol: 
June 10, 2007 2:46:20 PM

A 32bit Operating system has a 32bit memory register at max. Your Vista being a 32bit Operating system can only register upto 3.3 Gigabytes of the differant types of memory in your computer. Now your system has 3 Gigabytes of system memory IE RAM. That only leaves 300 Megabytes at max for all other memory devices. If you go over this number then your OS cuts the overage from your system memory IE RAM.

This does not count drive but things like video card memory, CPU cache, ect... so you have a lot of devices on that last 300 megabytes. The systems bios plays big a roll as poor programming may cause your max to be less than the full 3.3 gigabytes.

Now with a GPU having 256 megabytes of video memory you only have at most 64 megabytes left for the other devices. A GPU having 512 megabytes will already be over the 300 megabytes by more than 200 megabytes. That 200 megabytes will force the system to cut your system memory by the same amount if not more to recognize those devices needed.

Vista 64bit on the other hand can register 8 gigabytes for the standard version and 16 gigabytes for Vista premium. While 64bit can register over an 1000 Petabytes Microsoft has placed a low limit on home versions for profit reasons.
June 10, 2007 2:57:48 PM

Notice 99% which the 1% comes into play when they have no options when tech is changing as it is right now. Compaq created the ideal of proprietary and HP has done their far share and sooner of later it will bit you in the bottom. Now try a computer made before 2002 and you will see 100% chance of compaq and a high percent of HP, DELL, and Emachines have proprietary part. These companys will do this again as it mean more money to them for replacement parts.

Now whats wrong is not replying to my post on this issue.

Compaq owned by HP so check the proprietary link below.
http://www2.geek.com/discus/messages/27/26854.html?1139...
Note Compaq's proprietary version of FIC's AZ31
Note even HD's are proprietary in some cases.
http://www.kamcom.com/compaqdrives.htm
Quote:
The HP graphics cards are proprietary; we use the same GeForce chips as everyone else, but HP does the optimization in the chipset and within the graphics card itself.

http://blogs.pcworld.com/staffblog/archives/004322.html
Dell is kind of funny because try upgrading the Intel 945G on new systems with Intels latest drivers. Ive tryed and it seams only hacked drivers will work. Dells website has the only non hacked drivers that will work.

Try buying XP to downgrade Vista off Dells new desktops. Their HD will blue screen you.

Now on to HP's PSU. Heres an example on no standard PSU fiting the case.
http://www.ocia.net/articles/hpmod/page3.shtml
I really like his choice of tools for the operation. Note the chainsaw ill have to add this to my tool set.
http://www.ocia.net/articles/hpmod/page2.shtml
June 10, 2007 3:33:41 PM

"This does not count drive but things like video card memory, CPU cache, ect... so you have a lot of devices on that last 300 megabytes. The systems bios plays big a roll as poor programming may cause your max to be less than the full 3.3 gigabytes."

is this going to have a big effect on preformance? because i only going to use a 256mb GPU and my CPU cache is 8mb, would it be wise to take out one of the 512mb sticks of ram to give more cushion? becuase all i do is music, surf the web, and game so unless it has a noticeable effect on preformance does it really matter?
June 10, 2007 3:53:14 PM

Quote:
"This does not count drive but things like video card memory, CPU cache, ect... so you have a lot of devices on that last 300 megabytes. The systems bios plays big a roll as poor programming may cause your max to be less than the full 3.3 gigabytes."

is this going to have a big effect on preformance? because i only going to use a 256mb GPU and my CPU cache is 8mb, would it be wise to take out one of the 512mb sticks of ram to give more cushion? becuase all i do is music, surf the web, and game so unless it has a noticeable effect on preformance does it really matter?

No the performance should not suffer in games at all. The better GPU should up your performance a good deal. Im just telling you so you can tell your dad. He could get upset after you've already purchased the GPU. Tell your dad a new GPU may lower your 3 gigabytes of RAM only a little due to the operating system limits.

The only thing this will hurt is your dad may think he is being cheated by HP if you dont tell him or he could think theres a problem with the system.

Do not take the 512mb stick out as that will move you from dual channel to single. Removing the 512mb stick will hurt performance. If you already removed the 512mb stick put it back in and make sure your grounded to the case and the PSU is unpluged.

To minimize the amount of RAM the OS doesnt see due to the 32bit you may want to only get a 256 megabyte GPU. I would suggest the HD2600xt as it doesnt require a PCI-E power connector and at 45watts should work with a 350watt PSU. The HD2600xt should benchmark about that of the 7900GS but this is a guess. The HD2600xt working with your PSU isnt a guess as ATI has released this information.
June 10, 2007 4:34:23 PM

I sure see a lot of nit picking here.

The computer your dad is looking at is a very powerful machine at a very good price, which will be hard to beat anywhere. There might be some drop in price when Intel CPUs go down, but this is such a good price now there might not be better options later.

While building your own system may provide certain benefits as others documented above, it is apparent your Dad is not interested in this option so it should not be pushed further. Frankly, other than the potential power supply issue - which might not be a practical issue - and given your intended use - I see no problem here and don't think you are losing much if anything by going with the prebuilt system in your situation.

The 3 GB of RAM is excellent - and should be more than you will ever need in the forseeable future unless you are running some very sophisticated video processing programs. More than you will ever be able to use with games in the forseeable future. It is possible that if you get a memory card with 512 MB of memory you might have a very small, marginal loss of use of part of the main memory - but it would be negligible and unnoticeable.

The PSU does present a potential issue. It is most likely 350w. However, I had a Dell computer with a 350w PSU and had no problems. My CPU (P4 3.2Ghz) and video card (6600 GT) were fairly power hungry - although I don't know exactly how they compare to your option. My research showed that Dell PSU were reputed to be fairly robust, known to take heavy loads, and did not have a high failure rate. I know nothing about HP PSUs.

Here is a link to power requirements calculator:

http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.js...

I recently purchased an 7900 GS on sale for $100AR. It is a strong mainstram card and the power requirement is 45w, less than the in the 6600 GT I had in my Dell system. You might want to consider it.
!