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Really big antenna (in doubt)

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Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.

http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...


Originally posted by dturturro
"Wow, 35 miles out and you're getting good reception from a Silver
Sensor? Are you doing anything else? "

Answer by trekkerj
"I'm in the same vicinity and use a Radio Shack double bowtie inside and
get everything perfectly. In our case, it's not the distance, but the
altitude and line of sight to the ESB. From where I am, I can see
Manhattan from my complex in certain spots, and I'm on a 600 ft hill. It
helps a whole lot. A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but
much closer to sea level, and he can't get anything with an indoor antenna."

Now if we were using COFDM and an SFN like they use in MOST other
countries we would NOT need this obscene broadcast tower at Ground Zero
with MEGA Watts of power blasting the city. We would have low power
transmitters located around the city that would guarantee reception to
those confined to sea level or who suffer from other defective locations
8-VSB can not address.

Another defect of relying on single humongous transmitters and their
high altitude towers is vulnerability. In just the last few years we
have seen the fire in Moscow's broadcast tower, the World Trade Center
terrorist attack and numerous collapses of 1000 ft. towers due to
fatigue or weather. In all cases broadcasting suffers long periods of
blackout in large areas and a mad rush more even more people to cable
and satellite. I don't know if Moscow is back yet or not.

None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with COFDM
would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two transmitters
would not affect the broadcast reception much and they could be back on
the air very soon. Low power solid state transmitters can be backed up
easily also so that in the case of a power loss the station will stay on
the air.

In New York's recent blackout I was privy to watching our mayor tell us
what we should do on TV but I was in northern Michigan at the time. No
one in New York could watch his informative lecture.

Big and powerful is better except when its not and its NOT in modern
broadcasting.

Bob Miller

More about : big antenna doubt

Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
> and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
> miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
> below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
> Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
>
> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...

The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that web
page. Why are you still making things up?

Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?

Matthew
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with COFDM
> would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two transmitters
> would not affect the broadcast reception much and they could be back on
> the air very soon.

Sure Bob ... will you pay to cover Wyoming with an SFN?

No? Then we need 2000 foot towers and megawatt transmitters
and the most efficient method we can get.


Bob, quit thinking that NYC is America. It is not.

Wyoming and Texas are America. Hint: what states are
the President and Vice President from?

Doug McDonald
Related resources
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
> and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
> miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
> below). He is too close to sea level.

What does sea level have to do with it?

I get perfect reception from a new (on a week) 1MW Ch. 28 8-VSB station
that is 61 miles away on a 1000 foot tower, using a
double bowtie antenna with no reflector pointing 30 degrees
in the wrong direction. That antenna has a gain (over isotropic)
of about 4 dB. In addition to the earth's curvature,
there is a 150 foot hill in the way, roughly half way in between
me and the station.

COFDM would not help.

Doug McDonald
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.

Huh?? Booby you're so full of it..

The cushions of my sofa are located about 8ft above mean sea level.
Any lower and they would be floating !!!

I have no problems picking up flawless (H)DTV signals from a 8VSB
transmitter located seventy miles away. Fort Pierce WTVX-DT (chan 50,
301kW).

I watch that distant channel on a regular basis, at least once a
week, maybe more, no hickups, digital perfect.


----

Side note: That distant station was ground zero for two major
hurrincane strikes last year. I enjoyed watching their TV anchor
persons test their luck, (and lack of good judgement), right up to the
point where they were blown off the air. Then I would tune into a
station a little bit futher down the coast until they got blown off
the air, and so on.

B.T.W. They were very impressive storms, eight(8) hours into
hurricane Frances, only 3 out of the 40+ area TV transmitters were
still on the air.
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:23:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.

Huh?? Booby you're so full of it..

The cushions of my sofa are located about 8ft above mean sea level.
Any lower and they would be floating !!!

I have no problems picking up flawless (H)DTV signals from a 8VSB
transmitter located seventy miles away. Fort Pierce WTVX-DT (chan 50,
301kW).

I watch that distant channel on a regular basis, at least once a
week, maybe more, no hickups, digital perfect.


----

Side note: That distant station was ground zero for two major
hurricane strikes last year. I enjoyed watching their TV anchor
persons test their luck, (and lack of good judgement), right up to the
point where they were blown off the air. Then I would tune into a
station a little bit father down the coast until they got blown off
the air, and so on.

B.T.W. They were very impressive storms, eight(8) hours into
hurricane Frances, only 3 out of the 40+ area TV transmitters were
still on the air.
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:55:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast
>> antennas and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj
>> friend 10 miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see
>> AVSForum post below). He is too close to sea level. Another small
>> defect in 8-VSB. Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works
>> in Death valley.
>>
>> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>
>
> The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that web
> page. Why are you still making things up?
>
> Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
>
> Matthew

Put your glasses on Matt.

From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
"A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to SEA
LEVEL"
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 9:55:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast
>>> antennas and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help
>>> trkkerj friend 10 miles from the city (New York) even if they build
>>> it (see AVSForum post below). He is too close to sea level. Another
>>> small defect in 8-VSB. Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how
>>> it works in Death valley.
>>>
>>> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>>
>>
>>
>> The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that
>> web page. Why are you still making things up?
>>
>> Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
>>
>> Matthew
>
>
> Put your glasses on Matt.
>
> From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
> "A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to SEA
> LEVEL"

So, you are not only still making things up, you still refuse to back
what you say up with real supporting evidence.

Matthew (nobody reads your posts anymore)
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:48:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Doug McDonald wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with
>> COFDM would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two
>> transmitters would not affect the broadcast reception much and they
>> could be back on the air very soon.
>
>
> Sure Bob ... will you pay to cover Wyoming with an SFN?
>
> No? Then we need 2000 foot towers and megawatt transmitters
> and the most efficient method we can get.
>
>
> Bob, quit thinking that NYC is America. It is not.
>
> Wyoming and Texas are America. Hint: what states are
> the President and Vice President from?
>
> Doug McDonald

We do plan on covering Wyoming and COFDM can use high power transmitters
when it makes sense. But you don't use such in cities like New York if
you are after good reception and low power, low cost reliable coverage.
One big wind and half of Wyoming loses signal with your 2000 ft antenna.

NYC pays out a lot of tax dollars to the welfare states of Texas and
Wyoming. Our president basically bought rural America's vote with huge
welfare payments to farmers . Money he would not have if it wasn't for
city slickers in places like NYC that are stupid enough to go on
financing a bankrupt farm system in the US that can't seem to survive
without a major handout.

It was that rural population that came out to vote in unprecedented
numbers to support their welfare mama, President Bush, terrified of
losing their welfare checks.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:48:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:48:53 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Doug McDonald wrote:
>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with
>>> COFDM would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two
>>> transmitters would not affect the broadcast reception much and they
>>> could be back on the air very soon.
>>
>>
>> Sure Bob ... will you pay to cover Wyoming with an SFN?
>>
>> No? Then we need 2000 foot towers and megawatt transmitters
>> and the most efficient method we can get.
>>
>>
>> Bob, quit thinking that NYC is America. It is not.
>>
>> Wyoming and Texas are America. Hint: what states are
>> the President and Vice President from?
>>
>> Doug McDonald
>
>We do plan on covering Wyoming and COFDM can use high power transmitters
>when it makes sense. But you don't use such in cities like New York if
>you are after good reception and low power, low cost reliable coverage.
>One big wind and half of Wyoming loses signal with your 2000 ft antenna.

No you can't..

1st.. COFDM bleeds all over it's channel boundaries and ends up
interfering with adjacent NTSC channels, which needs a good 30 to 35dB
of Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio for a decent picture.

2nd. You have to transmit at substantially higher power, 5 to 6dB
(~4x power), just to over come just the inherent S/N requirements for
6Mhz HDTV COFDM receivers. P.S..Don't even blabber about wider Mhz
channel assignments, or different compression schemes, it won't fly.

3rd. Then COFDM need's an extra 10 to 15dB of S/N ratio to
overcome impulse noise issues. COFDM's design suffers from ~1000x
data loss from minor impulse noise events. Thus COFDM needs a
significantly greater S/N head room to reduce the probability of
interference from nearby impulse noise sources.

(P.S. Now you're getting close to the S/N ratio needed by NTSC to
deliver a decent signal. I.E. 30 to 35dB S/N ratio verses 14dB for
8VSB).

4th. By the time you get done with items 2 & 3 .. You've wiped out
the adjacent NTSC channels (item #1) and are consuming at least 20x
more energy. You can't deploy a system without a viable migration
path, the public wont stand for it.. COFDM is a failed technology
that is unsuitable for the US.

...Snip .. Bob's rant about taxation.
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:54:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Doug McDonald wrote:

> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast
>> antennas and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj
>> friend 10 miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see
>> AVSForum post below). He is too close to sea level.
>
>
> What does sea level have to do with it?
>
> I get perfect reception from a new (on a week) 1MW Ch. 28 8-VSB station
> that is 61 miles away on a 1000 foot tower, using a
> double bowtie antenna with no reflector pointing 30 degrees
> in the wrong direction. That antenna has a gain (over isotropic)
> of about 4 dB. In addition to the earth's curvature,
> there is a 150 foot hill in the way, roughly half way in between
> me and the station.
>
> COFDM would not help.
>
> Doug McDonald
>
>
8-VSB is very arbitrary isn't it. You can get in on a bounce from 61
miles but not at 10 in NYC because of ground clutter. All the more
reason for getting rid of big sticks that use massive power to throw
their signals over the radio horizon and play havoc with co-channels in
other cities.

Much better to use low power on short sticks in an SFN so that
interference with co-channels is minimized and so, with COFDM and SFNs,
you can sculpt carefully and efficiently the coverage of any station.

Have any more good reasons to ditch 8-VSB?

Bob Miller
Anonymous
January 31, 2005 11:54:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> 8-VSB is very arbitrary isn't it. You can get in on a bounce from 61
> miles but not at 10 in NYC because of ground clutter. All the more
> reason for getting rid of big sticks that use massive power to throw
> their signals over the radio horizon and play havoc with co-channels in
> other cities.
>
> Much better to use low power on short sticks in an SFN so that
> interference with co-channels is minimized and so, with COFDM and SFNs,
> you can sculpt carefully and efficiently the coverage of any station.
>

There you go again .... your SFN hangup. Are you prepared to pay
the power bills in Wyoming that are three times what they
would be with 8-VSB? (Note that it's in fact three times
the wall power, since it's the peak power that determines
wall plug power).

And Bob ... why do you think that NIMBY will not be
a problem for your SFNs?

Doug McDonald
February 1, 2005 12:53:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:zIuLd.2711$Nn1.193@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
> and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
> miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
> below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
> Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
> Originally posted by dturturro
> "Wow, 35 miles out and you're getting good reception from a Silver Sensor?
> Are you doing anything else? "
> Answer by trekkerj
> "I'm in the same vicinity and use a Radio Shack double bowtie inside and
> get everything perfectly. In our case, it's not the distance, but the
> altitude and line of sight to the ESB. From where I am, I can see
> Manhattan from my complex in certain spots, and I'm on a 600 ft hill. It
> helps a whole lot. A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but
> much closer to sea level, and he can't get anything with an indoor
> antenna."
> Now if we were using COFDM and an SFN like they use in MOST other
> countries we would NOT need this obscene broadcast tower at Ground Zero
> with MEGA Watts of power blasting the city. We would have low power
> transmitters located around the city that would guarantee reception to
> those confined to sea level or who suffer from other defective locations
> 8-VSB can not address.
> Another defect of relying on single humongous transmitters and their high
> altitude towers is vulnerability. In just the last few years we have seen
> the fire in Moscow's broadcast tower, the World Trade Center terrorist
> attack and numerous collapses of 1000 ft. towers due to fatigue or
> weather. In all cases broadcasting suffers long periods of blackout in
> large areas and a mad rush more even more people to cable and satellite. I
> don't know if Moscow is back yet or not.
> None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with COFDM
> would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two transmitters
> would not affect the broadcast reception much and they could be back on
> the air very soon. Low power solid state transmitters can be backed up
> easily also so that in the case of a power loss the station will stay on
> the air.
> In New York's recent blackout I was privy to watching our mayor tell us
> what we should do on TV but I was in northern Michigan at the time. No one
> in New York could watch his informative lecture.
> Big and powerful is better except when its not and its NOT in modern
> broadcasting. > Bob Miller

Bob, you should thank our government that we didn't end up with that feeble,
flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM system England was stuck with.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 7:22:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:MavLd.2740$Nn1.2442@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast
>>> antennas and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help
>>> trkkerj friend 10 miles from the city (New York) even if they build
>>> it (see AVSForum post below). He is too close to sea level. Another
>>> small defect in 8-VSB. Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how
>>> it works in Death valley.
>>>
>>> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>>
>>
>> The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that
>> web page. Why are you still making things up?
>>
>> Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
>>
>> Matthew
>
> Put your glasses on Matt.
>
> From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
> "A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to
> SEA LEVEL"

I doubt if elevation makes a lot of difference except insofar as it
affects line of sight transmissions. The line-of-sight distance depends
on the antenna height at each end and the height of any obstructions. If
the path is obstructed, then multipath is likely. If there exists a
direct path, then multipath can be minimized by using a highly directive
antenna at the receive end. But if the direct path is obstructed,
sometimes a good reflection is available. Reflections from solid
structures are best. Hills are OK, but may change seasonally and with
weather.

And, all other things being equal, the higher the transmitting antenna,
the more direct coverage it has.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:24:07 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Dave Oldridge wrote:

> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in
> news:MavLd.2740$Nn1.2442@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:
>
>
>>Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast
>>>>antennas and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help
>>>>trkkerj friend 10 miles from the city (New York) even if they build
>>>>it (see AVSForum post below). He is too close to sea level. Another
>>>>small defect in 8-VSB. Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how
>>>>it works in Death valley.
>>>>
>>>>http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>>>
>>>
>>>The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that
>>>web page. Why are you still making things up?
>>>
>>>Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
>>>
>>>Matthew
>>
>>Put your glasses on Matt.
>>
>> From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
>>"A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to
>>SEA LEVEL"
>
>
> I doubt if elevation makes a lot of difference except insofar as it
> affects line of sight transmissions. The line-of-sight distance depends
> on the antenna height at each end and the height of any obstructions. If
> the path is obstructed, then multipath is likely.

Lack of signal, loss of signal strength and multipath are all possible
in varying degrees.

> If there exists a direct path, then multipath can be minimized by using a highly directive
> antenna at the receive end. But if the direct path is obstructed,
> sometimes a good reflection is available. Reflections from solid
> structures are best. Hills are OK, but may change seasonally and with
> weather.
>
> And, all other things being equal, the higher the transmitting antenna,
> the more direct coverage it has.
>

The more "direct coverage it has"? How about lots of short range local
coverage and lots of indirect multipath coverage. Multipath is your
friend wit COFDM, it is not a bad thing it is good.. I am talking about
an SFN where there are multiple transmitters with the likelihood that
you will have one near you or even be able to receive multiple usable
signals from multiple antennas all of which signals can be aggregated.
All signals actually including all the multipath signals can be
aggregated using, if you want, multiple or diversity antenna to receive.

The problem in New York is that lots of people in close to the 8-VSB
transmitter can not receive a signal because of multipath and or no line
of sight. Neither is a problem with a properly designed SFN using COFDM.
That is why all proposals for mobile DTV for the US, Qualcomm's, Crown
Castle's, XM's and Sirius all plan on using COFDM. Qualcomm and Crown
Castle will use SFNs also. Sirius and XM use same frequency terrestrial
repeaters.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:39:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

>
> Now if we were using COFDM and an SFN like they use in MOST other
> countries we would NOT need this obscene broadcast tower at Ground Zero
> with MEGA Watts of power blasting the city. We would have low power
> transmitters located around the city that would guarantee reception to
> those confined to sea level or who suffer from other defective locations
> 8-VSB can not address.

Don't over look the value of a good antenna.
I hope that COFDM works better for TV frequencies then on the HF
frequencies. There are currently, that I know of, two modifications of
DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale, COFDM for short wave broadcasting) for
amateur radio use; WinDream and HamDream that run under the Windows
platform. Recently I tried both COFDM versions on approx. 14.36 Mhz with
a simple vertical omni directional antenna and under noisy reception
conditions. I could clearly hear the analog SSB (single side band) voice
transmission, but when pictures were attempted using either WinDream or
HamDream, reception failed. Others on the frequency also had reception
problems. The reception problem was blamed on multipath ;)  Maybe the
guard interval was not long enough, since multipath on the short wave
bands can easily range from milliseconds to tenths of a second. On the
other hand, others who had bigger better higher and directional
antennas, got perfect digital reception. Seems like this also applies to
VHF/UHF digital TV. I havent given up though, digital communications for
amateur radio use does look promising. Hopefully, when I have a chance I
can try COFDM again or maybe even write a software version for 8VSB ;) .
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:39:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Tim Keating wrote:


>
> No you can't..

Yes I can..
>
> 1st.. COFDM bleeds all over it's channel boundaries and ends up
> interfering with adjacent NTSC channels, which needs a good 30 to 35dB
> of Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio for a decent picture.

What adjacent NTSC channels? There are none.
>
> 2nd. You have to transmit at substantially higher power, 5 to 6dB
> (~4x power), just to over come just the inherent S/N requirements for
> 6Mhz HDTV COFDM receivers. P.S..Don't even blabber about wider Mhz
> channel assignments, or different compression schemes, it won't fly.

Latest test in China of the latest COFDM and 8-VSB receivers suggest
that COFDM DVB-T now has a 2.5 db advantage over 8-VSB.
>
> 3rd. Then COFDM need's an extra 10 to 15dB of S/N ratio to
> overcome impulse noise issues. COFDM's design suffers from ~1000x
> data loss from minor impulse noise events. Thus COFDM needs a
> significantly greater S/N head room to reduce the probability of
> interference from nearby impulse noise sources.

Impulse noise is a non issue with COFDM today as the British bought 1.5
million last quarter, similar success in Italy and Germany. Australia
and Japan doing very well though Japan's ISDB-T was beefed up some with
impulse noise in mind.

> (P.S. Now you're getting close to the S/N ratio needed by NTSC to
> deliver a decent signal. I.E. 30 to 35dB S/N ratio verses 14dB for
> 8VSB).
>
> 4th. By the time you get done with items 2 & 3 .. You've wiped out
> the adjacent NTSC channels (item #1) and are consuming at least 20x
> more energy. You can't deploy a system without a viable migration
> path, the public wont stand for it.. COFDM is a failed technology
> that is unsuitable for the US.

Which is being used by XM and Sirius as we speak, Qualcomm and Crown
Castle as soon as they can all for national networks using COFDM at much
lower power levels than 8-VSB.

COFDM is a failed technology? It is used in 802.11 a and g and all new
designations of 802 and WiLan. Qualcomm is said to be considering using
COFDM to replace CDMA for cell phones because it is so much better and
more efficient. COFDM is used by all countries in the world that have
any digital TV modulation at all except Canada, Mexico, S. Korea and the
US. COFDM is used for Electronic News Gathering all over the world
including the US.

COFDM will be used in one form or another in all TV channels sold off
above channel 51. The only place that COFDM has failed is in the BACK
ROOMS of Washington DC where it was disregarded by those who sell our
best interest short every day, Congress.

And I predict that when 8-VSB is discarded as it must be in a year or
ten it will be replaced by a variant of COFDM. Of course OTA could just
fail totally and Congress, Cable and satellite companies would get just
what they want, a loss of a competitor and the right to sell off the
rest of the TV spectrum.

Bob Miller
>
> ..Snip .. Bob's rant about taxation.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:44:53 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

David wrote:

> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:zIuLd.2711$Nn1.193@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
>>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
>
> > http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>
>>Originally posted by dturturro
>>"Wow, 35 miles out and you're getting good reception from a Silver Sensor?
>>Are you doing anything else? "
>>Answer by trekkerj
>>"I'm in the same vicinity and use a Radio Shack double bowtie inside and
>>get everything perfectly. In our case, it's not the distance, but the
>>altitude and line of sight to the ESB. From where I am, I can see
>>Manhattan from my complex in certain spots, and I'm on a 600 ft hill. It
>>helps a whole lot. A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but
>>much closer to sea level, and he can't get anything with an indoor
>>antenna."
>>Now if we were using COFDM and an SFN like they use in MOST other
>>countries we would NOT need this obscene broadcast tower at Ground Zero
>>with MEGA Watts of power blasting the city. We would have low power
>>transmitters located around the city that would guarantee reception to
>>those confined to sea level or who suffer from other defective locations
>>8-VSB can not address.
>>Another defect of relying on single humongous transmitters and their high
>>altitude towers is vulnerability. In just the last few years we have seen
>>the fire in Moscow's broadcast tower, the World Trade Center terrorist
>>attack and numerous collapses of 1000 ft. towers due to fatigue or
>>weather. In all cases broadcasting suffers long periods of blackout in
>>large areas and a mad rush more even more people to cable and satellite. I
>>don't know if Moscow is back yet or not.
>
> > None of this is necessary. An SFN (Single Frequency Network) with COFDM
>
>>would be super reliable since the loss of one or even two transmitters
>>would not affect the broadcast reception much and they could be back on
>>the air very soon. Low power solid state transmitters can be backed up
>>easily also so that in the case of a power loss the station will stay on
>>the air.
>>In New York's recent blackout I was privy to watching our mayor tell us
>>what we should do on TV but I was in northern Michigan at the time. No one
>>in New York could watch his informative lecture.
>
> > Big and powerful is better except when its not and its NOT in modern
>
>>broadcasting. > Bob Miller
>
>
> Bob, you should thank our government that we didn't end up with that feeble,
> flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM system England was stuck with.
>
>
The one where they sold 3 million receivers last year and will sell 5
million this year? That England? Equivalent sales in the US would have
been 18 and 30 million. How many OTA 8-VSB stand alone and integrated
DTV sets did we sell in the US last year? How many will we sell this year?

Bob Miller
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:49:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

numeric wrote:

>
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>>
>> Now if we were using COFDM and an SFN like they use in MOST other
>> countries we would NOT need this obscene broadcast tower at Ground
>> Zero with MEGA Watts of power blasting the city. We would have low
>> power transmitters located around the city that would guarantee
>> reception to those confined to sea level or who suffer from other
>> defective locations 8-VSB can not address.
>
>
> Don't over look the value of a good antenna.
> I hope that COFDM works better for TV frequencies then on the HF
> frequencies. There are currently, that I know of, two modifications of
> DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale, COFDM for short wave broadcasting) for
> amateur radio use; WinDream and HamDream that run under the Windows
> platform. Recently I tried both COFDM versions on approx. 14.36 Mhz with
> a simple vertical omni directional antenna and under noisy reception
> conditions. I could clearly hear the analog SSB (single side band) voice
> transmission, but when pictures were attempted using either WinDream or
> HamDream, reception failed. Others on the frequency also had reception
> problems. The reception problem was blamed on multipath ;)  Maybe the
> guard interval was not long enough, since multipath on the short wave
> bands can easily range from milliseconds to tenths of a second. On the
> other hand, others who had bigger better higher and directional
> antennas, got perfect digital reception. Seems like this also applies to
> VHF/UHF digital TV. I havent given up though, digital communications for
> amateur radio use does look promising. Hopefully, when I have a chance I
> can try COFDM again or maybe even write a software version for 8VSB ;) .
>
That would be retro in the max. Never heard of anyone suggesting the use
of 8-VSB for anything anywhere anytime except for its intended use to
inflict pain, cost and delay on the US consumer and our digital
transition.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 8:55:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Interesting quote from the UK website

http://www.freeview.co.uk/whatdoineed/aerials.html

Please note it is unlikely that you will be able to receive good
quality digital reception through a set-top aerial and if possible
we suggest you upgrade to either a rooftop or loft aerial.
February 1, 2005 11:01:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote >>

>>Bob, you should thank our government that we didn't end up with that
>>feeble,
>> flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM system England was stuck with.
>>
>>
> The one where they sold 3 million receivers last year and will sell 5
> million this year? That England? Equivalent sales in the US would have
> been 18 and 30 million. How many OTA 8-VSB stand alone and integrated DTV
> sets did we sell in the US last year? How many will we sell this year?
>
> Bob Miller


Yes, that same system. And the earlier one too. Not concerned with your
sales figures, because *the boxes were practically give-aways* (and your
figures are most probably lies, anyway).

Perhaps you should take in some basis telecommunications courses to
understand the difference between DTV and HDTV. May I recommend Technical
Career Institute? I believe they also offer a few Shopping Cart Repair
courses in case you're interested.

Anyway, I'm concerned with a feeble, flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM
system.
The same one that prompted about 10,000 complaints on British newsgroups and
various British DTV forums over the years.

I joined a number of those forums just to do searches for terms like
"impulse noise", "freezes", "interference", "appliance", "light
switch"......I read many, many hundreds of postings by frustrated customers.

Can anyone imagine sports fans here [in the USA] losing their picture
because a neighbor decides to mow his lawn? That's the kind of COFDM system
the Brits had to put up with.

Thank God we didn't end up with your darling POS COFDM system.
February 1, 2005 11:13:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote
> below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
> Doesn't work well near sea level.

The salt water is reacting with the orthogonal impulse noises created from
the vestigial sidefins of the little fishies.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 12:36:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:


>
> Latest test in China of the latest COFDM and 8-VSB receivers suggest
> that COFDM DVB-T now has a 2.5 db advantage over 8-VSB.
>


Give us the technical details, which you refuse to provide.

Exact ferequency bandwidths and all parameters of the
tyransmission, and the receivers. A particular important
point is how close the reeivers are to the theortical limit.

Any post that claims that DVB-T COFDM takes less power
than 8-VSB at the same bitrate abd bandwidth is ludicrous, because
of absolute theoretical limitations of each, and the fact
that they currently now closely approach theory.

You can't quote "Chinese sources" without exact data and
proof of that data. No reputable published study has
shown COFDM even approaching 8-VSB.

Doug McDonald
February 1, 2005 12:48:14 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Frank Provasek" <frank@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:9RELd.4778$S3.4575@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Interesting quote from the UK website
>
> http://www.freeview.co.uk/whatdoineed/aerials.html
>
> Please note it is unlikely that you will be able to receive good quality
> digital reception through a set-top aerial and if possible we suggest you
> upgrade to either a rooftop or loft aerial.
>
>

You'll also see the [almost] exact same statement on the BBC website.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 1:48:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 05:39:52 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Tim Keating wrote:
>
>
>>
>> No you can't..
>
>Yes I can..
>>
>> 1st.. COFDM bleeds all over it's channel boundaries and ends up
>> interfering with adjacent NTSC channels, which needs a good 30 to 35dB
>> of Signal to Noise (S/N) ratio for a decent picture.
>
>What adjacent NTSC channels? There are none.

Another one of Bob's fantasies.. and LIES...

Just a small sample from South Florida..

WSVN... ( NTSC) on channel 7.
WSVN-DT (Digital) on channel 8.

WPLG (NTSC) on channel 10.
WPLG-DT (Digital) on channel 9.

WPEC (NTSC) on channel 12.
WPEC-DT (Digital) on channel 13.

I could quote at least another 30 more examples just in South
Florida alone. But Booby has his head stuck in the sand.


Hint to Booby.. any TV broadcast system deployed must work in both
rural and metropolis settings.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 3:32:53 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin (nothere@notnow.never) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> >>> http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
> >>
> >> The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that
> >> web page. Why are you still making things up?
> >>
> >> Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
> >>
> >> Matthew
> >
> >
> > Put your glasses on Matt.
> >
> > From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
> > "A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to SEA
> > LEVEL"
>
> So, you are not only still making things up, you still refuse to back
> what you say up with real supporting evidence.

At this point, the words "sea" and "level" don't appear at all on
the referenced page, so, yes, Bob is again taking a boring story and
changing it to suit his agenda.

In this case, a story about physical problems with building a really tall
antenna (nearly 900' taller than the ones were on the WTC) is suddenly one
about how it is hard to receive ATSC near sea level.

--
Jeff Rife | "Ahhh, what an awful dream! Ones and zeroes
| everywhere...and I thought I saw a two!"
| -- Bender, "Futurama"
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 3:40:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>What does sea level have to do with it?
>
>I get perfect reception from a new (on a week) 1MW Ch. 28 8-VSB station
>that is 61 miles away on a 1000 foot tower, using a
>double bowtie antenna with no reflector pointing 30 degrees
>in the wrong direction

Don't worry, it's just more rantings from our desperate resident Snake Oil
Salesman. You see BOB just doesn't know what to do anymore. The 8VSB train has
run right over him and his scare tactics have been fruitless. Fortunately,
forums like this can help spread FACTS, not LIES that BOB perpetuates. His
constant lies, embellishments and distortions were the reason he got booted off
of AVS. Of course he tried to get back on using aliases, but you could always
smell the lies a mile away.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 3:51:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>Latest test in China of the latest COFDM and 8-VSB receivers suggest
>that COFDM DVB-T now has a 2.5 db advantage over 8-VSB.

So why don't you GO to these socialist/communist countries that you so admire?
You do nothing but waste bandwidth on this and other forums that you got booted
off of. You speak of COFDM doing this and that (but of course NEVER in high
definition). You are a disgusting little man.

>Qualcomm is said to be considering using
>COFDM to replace CDMA for cell phones because it is so much better and
>more efficient.

Sure BOB, because in THOSE systems there are a million repeaters that are
necessary to get the coverage. That is NOT, repeat NOT, repeat NOT how the U.S.
TELEVISION BROADCASTING system works. I know you despise the U.S. system (as
you seem to despise this country).

Worthy of repeating folks, BOB does NOT own a high definition television.

>And I predict that when 8-VSB is discarded as it must be in a year or
>ten it will be replaced by a variant of COFDM.

Ah, so now BOB's horizon for the cessation of 8VSB is up to 10 years. You see
he's predicted the collapse of our system year after year after year. The only
thing that happens is it gets more and more and more ENTRENCHED. Why? Because
it works so damn well!!!
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 3:54:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>That is why all proposals for mobile DTV for the US, Qualcomm's, Crown
>Castle's, XM's and Sirius all plan on using COFDM.

Ah yes, that MISERABLE COFDM XM reception here in the N.Y. area. Thank God we
don't have that as our TV modulation standard. Thank God!!! Anybody with XM
here in the N.Y. area knows what I'm talking about. Dropouts here dropouts
there, and this from lowly RADIO reception. Can you IMAGINE what high
definition transmission would look like? Wow! Did we ever make the correct
decision in the U.S.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 3:59:16 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>Please note it is unlikely that you will be able to receive good
>quality digital reception through a set-top aerial and if possible
>we suggest you upgrade to either a rooftop or loft aerial.
>

I do wish you wouldn't confuse BOB with the facts!!!!
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:20:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Frank Provasek wrote:
> Interesting quote from the UK website
>
> http://www.freeview.co.uk/whatdoineed/aerials.html
>
> Please note it is unlikely that you will be able to receive good
> quality digital reception through a set-top aerial and if possible
> we suggest you upgrade to either a rooftop or loft aerial.
>
>
Well what would you do if you were writing a blurb for this site? You
write as conservative as you can just like they do on drug commercials.
The reality on the ground in the UK is that many are able to easily
receive the DTV signal indoors with the simplest antennas. This in spite
of the realities below.

One, they have infinitesimal power levels on their 480 transmitters
ranging from the highest, 20 kWs to the lowest THREE Watts. The average
is around ONE kW. If you add all the power for all 480 digital TV
transmitters in the UK together they do not equal ONE normal US DTV
station.

Can you imagine the disclaimer that would be written for the North
Eastern US including New York, Boston, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh if
all the power being used with 8-VSB by all the stations on the air in
that entire area totaled less than is being used by ONE station in
Providence RI? Can you even imagine this?

Two, they are using an ancient form of COFDM which, while far better
than 8-VSB, is a far cry from what is currently available with COFDM or
even what was available in 1999. They locked in a little early in their
enthusiasm. For example they can not even use an SFN with their version
of COFDM.

Still they are the leader in DTV OTA broadcasting in the world selling
1.5 million receivers in the 4th quarter of 2004 alone. If the US had
been selling DTV receivers for the last 5 years ( of the 7 we have been
at it) at the rate the UK has been selling them in their first two
years, the US would have sold 75 million receivers so far. I say the
last 5 years because it was in 2000 that the US had its last fling at
switching to a more advanced version of COFDM and didn't. In the end
they WILL however, sooner or later switch to COFDM or free OTA will die.

The math? 5 million receivers sold in the UK so far. 5 million per two
years would be 12.5 million over 5 years. The US is 6 times the size of
the UK so if we had a similar sales rate over a 5 year period instead of
the 2 that the UK has had we would have a total of 6 X 12.5 million or
75 million.

Compare to what we have!! A mandate, no 5th gen receivers for sale, few
4th gen receivers for sale. The death of free OTA staring us in the face.
Broadcasters (all of them) demanding must carry of multicasting on
cable. Seems they have NO faith in their OTA spectrum and its future.

Now all it will take in this political screaming match in DC is for one
Senator to stand up and say " lets sell off all OTA TV spectrum". Could
happen.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:20:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Frank Provasek wrote:
>
>> Interesting quote from the UK website
>>
>> http://www.freeview.co.uk/whatdoineed/aerials.html
>>
>> Please note it is unlikely that you will be able to receive good
>> quality digital reception through a set-top aerial and if possible we
>> suggest you upgrade to either a rooftop or loft aerial.
>>
>>
> Well what would you do if you were writing a blurb for this site?

Tell the truth, like you would ever think of doing that.

Matthew
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:21:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.


Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:23:19 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 01 Feb 2005 12:54:18 GMT, vidguy7@aol.com (Vidguy7) wrote:

>>That is why all proposals for mobile DTV for the US, Qualcomm's, Crown
>>Castle's, XM's and Sirius all plan on using COFDM.
>
>Ah yes, that MISERABLE COFDM XM reception here in the N.Y. area. Thank God we
>don't have that as our TV modulation standard. Thank God!!! Anybody with XM
>here in the N.Y. area knows what I'm talking about. Dropouts here dropouts
>there, and this from lowly RADIO reception. Can you IMAGINE what high
>definition transmission would look like? Wow! Did we ever make the correct
>decision in the U.S.


Same here at sea level in South Florida. XM is a joke.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:26:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
>
>
>
> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>

How much of Florida's population is more than 100 feet above sea level?

Matthew
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:29:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 10:48:28 -0500, Tim Keating
<NotForJunkEmail@directinternet11.com1> wrote:

> Just a small sample from South Florida..
>
>WSVN... ( NTSC) on channel 7.
>WSVN-DT (Digital) on channel 8.
>
>WPLG (NTSC) on channel 10.
>WPLG-DT (Digital) on channel 9.
>
>WPEC (NTSC) on channel 12.
>WPEC-DT (Digital) on channel 13.


Side note. All of these are receivable over all of Miami, Broward and
West Palm Beach.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:35:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

David wrote:

> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote >>
>
>>>Bob, you should thank our government that we didn't end up with that
>>>feeble,
>>>flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM system England was stuck with.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>The one where they sold 3 million receivers last year and will sell 5
>>million this year? That England? Equivalent sales in the US would have
>>been 18 and 30 million. How many OTA 8-VSB stand alone and integrated DTV
>>sets did we sell in the US last year? How many will we sell this year?
>>
>>Bob Miller
>
>
>
> Yes, that same system. And the earlier one too. Not concerned with your
> sales figures, because *the boxes were practically give-aways* (and your
> figures are most probably lies, anyway).
>
> Perhaps you should take in some basis telecommunications courses to
> understand the difference between DTV and HDTV. May I recommend Technical
> Career Institute? I believe they also offer a few Shopping Cart Repair
> courses in case you're interested.
>
> Anyway, I'm concerned with a feeble, flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM
> system.
> The same one that prompted about 10,000 complaints on British newsgroups and
> various British DTV forums over the years.
>
> I joined a number of those forums just to do searches for terms like
> "impulse noise", "freezes", "interference", "appliance", "light
> switch"......I read many, many hundreds of postings by frustrated customers.
>
> Can anyone imagine sports fans here [in the USA] losing their picture
> because a neighbor decides to mow his lawn? That's the kind of COFDM system
> the Brits had to put up with.
>
> Thank God we didn't end up with your darling POS COFDM system.
>
>
Here is a video of mobile reception of COFDM in New York City. This with
3 inch and 12 inch omni antennas.

Mobile reception is just indicative of how easy it is to receive COFDM.

www.viacel.com/bob.wmv

The British system is an old COFDM system and still it has none of the
problems that David alludes to. You can go on this site to read or even
ask the questions that you like. The first receiver sold in the UK did
have problems with impulse noise due to design flaws but this has been
corrected in later models.

http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=...

Bob Miller

10,000 complaints out of 5 million sold in the last two years doesn't
sound like a lot to me. How many complaints would the odd 500,000 8-VSB
receivers sold over the last 7 years generate?

Word of mouth is what has pushed the 5 million UK sales. Word of mouth
is what has KILLED sales of 8-VSB receivers.

Bob Miller
February 1, 2005 6:35:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4lNLd.3311$Nn1.2853@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> David wrote:
>
>> "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote >>
>>
>>>>Bob, you should thank our government that we didn't end up with that
>>>>feeble,
>>>>flimsy and very poorly designed COFDM system England was stuck with.

>>>The one where they sold 3 million receivers last year and will sell 5
>>>million this year? That England? Equivalent sales in the US would have
>>>been 18 and 30 million. How many OTA 8-VSB stand alone and integrated DTV
>>>sets did we sell in the US last year? How many will we sell this year?
>>>
>>>Bob Miller
>> Yes, that same system. And the earlier one too. Not concerned with your
>> sales figures, because *the boxes were practically give-aways* (and your
>> figures are most probably lies, anyway).
>>
>> Perhaps you should take in some basis telecommunications courses to
>> understand the difference between DTV and HDTV. May I recommend
>> Technical Career Institute? I believe they also offer a few Shopping
>> Cart Repair courses in case you're interested.
>>
>> Anyway, I'm concerned with a feeble, flimsy and very poorly designed
>> COFDM system.
>> The same one that prompted about 10,000 complaints on British newsgroups
>> and various British DTV forums over the years. I joined a number of those
>> forums just to do searches for terms like "impulse noise", "freezes",
>> "interference", "appliance", "light switch"......I read many, many
>> hundreds of postings by frustrated customers.
>>
>> Can anyone imagine sports fans here [in the USA] losing their picture
>> because a neighbor decides to mow his lawn? That's the kind of COFDM
>> system the Brits had to put up with.
>>
>> Thank God we didn't end up with your darling POS COFDM system.
>>
>>
> Here is a video of mobile reception of COFDM in New York City. This with 3
> inch and 12 inch omni antennas.
>
> Mobile reception is just indicative of how easy it is to receive COFDM.
>
> www.viacel.com/bob.wmv
>
> The British system is an old COFDM system and still it has none of the
> problems that David alludes to. You can go on this site to read or even
> ask the questions that you like. The first receiver sold in the UK did
> have problems with impulse noise due to design flaws but this has been
> corrected in later models.
>
> http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board/forumdisplay.php?f=...
>
> Bob Miller
>
> 10,000 complaints out of 5 million sold in the last two years doesn't
> sound like a lot to me. How many complaints would the odd 500,000 8-VSB
> receivers sold over the last 7 years generate?
>
> Word of mouth is what has pushed the 5 million UK sales. Word of mouth is
> what has KILLED sales of 8-VSB receivers.
> Bob Miller

Did you ever learn how to search for certain terms on google groups?

Thank GOD we didn't end up with the exact same POS COFDM system, you know,
the one you were trying to shove up everyone's ass on AVS forum 6 years ago?

"feeble, flimsy and very poorly designed". Does this remind you of
anyone's business acumen?
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 6:35:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> The British system is an old COFDM system

....just like the one that you wanted to push on the US years ago. It's
a good thing that smarter people than you made the decision about digital
TV in the US.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/99/Apr/columbine.html
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 7:10:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin (nothere@notnow.never) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
> > I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
> >
>
> How much of Florida's population is more than 100 feet above sea level?

The 10 guys that think Bob Miller is right. :) 

The highest point in Florida is 345' above sea level, so the entire state
shouldn't be able to receive ATSC, according to Bob.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Peanuts/TenPin.gif
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 9:13:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin (nothere@notnow.never) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>>>>http://broadcastengineering.com/newsletters/bth/2005013...
>>>>
>>>>The words "sea" and "level" don't appear in the same article on that
>>>>web page. Why are you still making things up?
>>>>
>>>>Could it be that you are getting _even more_ desparate?
>>>>
>>>>Matthew
>>>
>>>
>>>Put your glasses on Matt.
>>>
>>> From my post, an excerpt from an AVSForum post...
>>>"A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but much closer to SEA
>>>LEVEL"
>>
>>So, you are not only still making things up, you still refuse to back
>>what you say up with real supporting evidence.
>
>
> At this point, the words "sea" and "level" don't appear at all on
> the referenced page, so, yes, Bob is again taking a boring story and
> changing it to suit his agenda.
>
> In this case, a story about physical problems with building a really tall
> antenna (nearly 900' taller than the ones were on the WTC) is suddenly one
> about how it is hard to receive ATSC near sea level.

The sea level part is only illustrative of the problem many (most) have
in receiving 8-VSB in any "challenged" environment. Sea level is just
humorous. It is the fact that you cannot receive 8-VSB reliably today
after SEVEN years of trying to fix it in areas of multipath even very
near to VERY high powered 8-VSB transmitters on very high towers. It is
about how those high towers and massive transmitters are not needed with
the world standard COFDM.

The reference is to a post on AVSForum at not to the story on the building.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=dfb60f4...

sea level is in the post... Don't have to make this up. The poster
suggest that his friend cannot get reception with 8-VSB even though he
is real close to the Empire State Building because he is close to "sea
level".

Yesterday 04:28 AM
I'm in the same vicinity and use a Radio Shack double bowtie inside and
get everything perfectly. In our case, it's not the distance, but the
altitude and line of sight to the ESB. From where I am, I can see
Manhattan from my complex in certain spots, and I'm on a 600 ft hill. It
helps a whole lot. A friend of mine is 10 miles closer to the city, but
much closer to sea level, and he can't get anything with an indoor antenna.
-------

AVSForum is the single best source of information on the problems with
8-VSB and the single best reason that most people pass on buying OTA
8-VSB receivers. It shows the power of the Internet and how it can save
people from bad purchase decisions.

Others in a similar vein today on AVSForum....

I'm beginning to think that people, like me, who are very close to the
ESB are having more reception problems than people who are 20-30 miles
away...

-----

I agree DanC-P I am less than 10 miles away (in Brooklyn) with a clear
line of site and have only received WPIX-HD once since the towers went
down. Futhermore, I received better reception on same stations with
indoor antenna (Rat Shack double bow-tie) than I do now with a roof top
antenna (Square Shooter).
-----
Originally posted by jcord51
I for one am very happy that the Combiner is finally up. Unfortunately I
wish that the stations would get their act together. Channel 4 was one
of my best channels, now it's unusable. Channel 5 and 11 are "here
today, gone tomorrow". All I want to do is get a reliable orientation
for my Wingate antenna. I really don't want to keep going up a roof 30
feet to get a lock. I'm only 8 miles away from the ESB and have these
problems, I can only imagine what some of you are going through. Here's
a question for you Guys, should I just lock in on Channel 2, since it is
the only one at full strength, and just wait for the others to follow suit?
-----
Concerning full power - in addition to WCBS-DT, WABC-DT and WWOR-DT are
now both transmitting at full power. NBC and PIX , as of last Friday,
are still not at 100%.

Even though all of the Combiner stations are using WCBS-DT's antenna,
they all transmit at different frequencies. Unless you have totally
unobstructed line-of-sight to the Empire State Building, different
frequencies will react and interact differently. It's enough to drive a
sane person crazy. I'm plagued with multipath reflections, and if I get
one station well from the Combiner, I lose a diifferent one. With my
indoor Silver Sensor, I'm constantly changing its positioning. And, in a
given day, reception can change drastically. I can empathize for those
of you using an outdoor antenna.

Additionally, we're awaiting WNET-DT to connect its new transmitter to
the Combiner.

Channel 5 is planned to be at full power by Sunday for the Super Bowl.

Wish you well,

Gary

-----
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 9:18:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife wrote:

> Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>
>>The British system is an old COFDM system
>
>
> ...just like the one that you wanted to push on the US years ago. It's
> a good thing that smarter people than you made the decision about digital
> TV in the US.
>
Never suggested the UK system. In 1999 we wanted to use 8K COFDM as we
do today. The British settled on 2K COFDM because they thought it would
take to long for the silicon for 8K and that it would be too expensive.

8K happened quicker than they expected. They wish they could switch
easily. Having already sold 5 million receivers makes it hard to switch.

Not the case in the US where we are still stuck basically at zero.

Bob Miller
February 1, 2005 11:25:57 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lKPLd.3462$Nn1.1337@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
>
> Not the case in the US where we are still stuck basically at zero.
>
> Bob Miller

WE?!
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 11:48:23 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
>
>
>
> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>
Sea Level is a euphonism "for does not work well near the transmitter
because of ground clutter induced multipath". A poster used "sea level"
to describe that condition near the Empire State Building like that.
Anonymous
February 1, 2005 11:48:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
>
>>
>> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
>> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>>
>
> Sea Level is a euphonism "for does not work well near the transmitter
> because of ground clutter induced multipath". A poster used "sea level"
> to describe that condition near the Empire State Building like that.

It's so much fun to see you backpedal.

Matthew
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 12:29:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 01 Feb 2005 12:51:36 GMT, vidguy7@aol.com (Vidguy7) wrote:


>Ah, so now BOB's horizon for the cessation of 8VSB is up to 10 years. You see
>he's predicted the collapse of our system year after year after year. The only
>thing that happens is it gets more and more and more ENTRENCHED. Why? Because
>it works so damn well!!!

It may work well for some of you, but in my location, about 55 miles
from the transmission towers, reception is nothing to brag about.
Using a Radioshack yagi on the roof and a Samsung SIR TS360 receiver,
signal strength on the receiver's meter oscillates between 10 and 45 %
and during a rain storm last week reception was lost for hours at a
time.

Pehaps this unreliable service is why no one that I know is using OTA
DTV and no store in my city, population of over 200,000, sells an ATSC
receiver, as far as I know.

charlie (who is not an agent of a foreign power trying to bring down
the USA by complaining about poor TV reception, although he does
believe that the present administration is doing great harm to our
country)
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 12:49:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Doug McDonald" <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:cto7mc$ahg$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...


>
> Any post that claims that DVB-T COFDM takes less power
> than 8-VSB at the same bitrate abd bandwidth is ludicrous, because
> of absolute theoretical limitations of each, and the fact
> that they currently now closely approach theory.
>
> You can't quote "Chinese sources" without exact data and
> proof of that data. No reputable published study has
> shown COFDM even approaching 8-VSB.

Considering all that has gone before ...

In "one year or ten," when COFDM actually goes on the air on channels
above 51, will the masses be able to compare it to 8VSB? (Think in terms
of comparing our existing analog AM radio to its FM counterpart; the
advantages and drawbacks of each are apparent and they co-exist.)

I want full color, full motion, big screen, sharp-as-a-tack HDTV in my
suburban living room. I know I will get it from local broadcasters
in 8VSB because it is being delivered now by over twenty stations
here in SoCal. What will be coming out of the COFDM community
along those same lines? If it isn't planned to be full color, full motion,
big screen, sharp-as-a-tack HDTV, what's the end game of this war
of words?
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 2:28:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 20:48:23 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 18:23:27 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Forgot to mention that in the US we need the biggest broadcast antennas
>>>and the highest powered transmitters also. Won't help trkkerj friend 10
>>>miles from the city (New York) even if they build it (see AVSForum post
>>>below). He is too close to sea level. Another small defect in 8-VSB.
>>>Doesn't work well near sea level. Wonder how it works in Death valley.
>>
>>
>>
>> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
>> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>>
>Sea Level is a euphonism "for does not work well near the transmitter
>because of ground clutter induced multipath". A poster used "sea level"
>to describe that condition near the Empire State Building like that.


The entire market I speak of (WPB, Broward and Dade) are no higher
than 15' above sea level. All are viewable everywhere in an 80 mile
radius. I think someone is wrong here.
Ground clutter induced multipath sounds like the wrong diagnoses.
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 2:56:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
>>> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Sea Level is a euphonism "for does not work well near the transmitter
>> because of ground clutter induced multipath". A poster used "sea
>> level" to describe that condition near the Empire State Building like
>> that.
>
>
> It's so much fun to see you backpedal.
>
> Matthew

Not backpedling but explaining in detail what for the average reader
should, I thought, have been self explanatory.

In the future I will dumb down my post.

Bob Miller

Bob Miller
Anonymous
February 2, 2005 2:56:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Matthew L. Martin wrote:
>
>> Bob Miller wrote:
>>
>>> the_professor@atbi.com wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sure works well in the South Florida market at sea level.
>>>> I am watching West Palm Beach in Miami right now as I type this.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sea Level is a euphonism "for does not work well near the
>>> transmitter because of ground clutter induced multipath". A poster
>>> used "sea level" to describe that condition near the Empire State
>>> Building like that.
>>
>>
>>
>> It's so much fun to see you backpedal.
>>
>> Matthew
>
>
> Not backpedling but explaining in detail what for the average reader
> should, I thought, have been self explanatory.
>
> In the future I will dumb down my post.

Impossible!!!

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
!