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WD Raptor with Vista problems

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June 25, 2007 12:46:00 PM

Interesting article

http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/2007/06/25/wd-raptor-nvid...

A debug tool is offered but what does this debug tool actually do ?

More about : raptor vista problems

June 25, 2007 2:25:54 PM

They don't show the source of the code at all. Therefore no one should recommend using it for a problem that they cant fully explain themselves. If the problem really exists and this is the solution then I find it more prudent to wait for either Nvidia or WD to release an official patch for the issues.

Otherwise it sounds like BS. With wording like it this...
Quote:
Attaching the hard drive to a different SATA port can sometimes eliminate the problem for a short while.

...its seems like they have no clue what the real culprit is. Anyone who points to a random occurance of a problem and then arbitrarily picks out a component as the problem really has NO understanding of the issue at hand.

Quote:
So we repeated our initial component-swapping marathon and finally determined a second source of error - Nvidia's 7000 and 8000 line of graphics cards. Once again, as soon as we copied the system, OS and all, from the WD1500 to another hard drive, the issues disappeared. Also, when Vista was installed on a system using an ATI graphics card (X1900 line), no errors appeared, even when the WD1500 was used.

With this statement it seems the problem has nothing to do with WD and lies more in the lap of Nvidia. To confirm the problem they should have tested the setup with other video cards like Matrox or other integrated solutions like VIA. If the problem doesnt exist between those manufacturers and WD then it definitely points to Nvidia.

This makes more sense as we've seen in past articles that the IO on Nvidia's hard disk controller is truly pathetic. And even to this day, months and months after the 8800 series, Nvidia still has some issues that need to be addressed with their graphics cards.

Quote:
Until now, we had quite a number of WD1500s in use in our Lab. However, the recurrence of the problems detailed above and its comparatively low capacity of only 150GB - which is hardly state of the art - force us to part ways with this model. Tom's Hardware will no longer the WD1500 for testing from our Munich labs.

In the end the truth is finally revealed. They just wanted an excuse to bash WD for something that is probably not their fault. This sounds more like a way of validating another manufacturer paying more money to advertise their products in THG's benchmark tests.
June 25, 2007 2:34:22 PM

Poor article. The research and troubleshooting is very "voodoo", with little control of component swap-outs and documentation of each particular hardware, software, and driver combination.

The conclusion that Vista isn't the problem is incorrect. The truth is that since no other OS was tested, Vista's role in the problem is unknown.

Though motherboards were swapped out, only Intel chipsets were tested. By not testing an AMD or NForce chipset, you cannot exclude something common across Intel's chipsets from being part of the problem, either.

The existence of their "debug" service indicates that they found a reason or work-around for solving the issue, but didn't disclose what that was to us. What are they trying to hide? What does the service actually do? I highly doubt it patches the NVidia or Western Digital drivers, and it can't mess with the graphics card's or hard drive's ROM code, so that leaves what? Chipset/BIOS/motherboard hardware registers? (That certainly would seem to deflect blame away from the two hardware manufacturers if chipset settings fix the problem. That would appear to blame Intel, which wasn't even considered as a factor.) What else could it do? Registry settings/Vista internal settings? (That also deflects blame away from the hardware manufacturers and would seem to place blame on Microsoft.)

Again, poor article, poor research, and invalid conclusions.
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June 25, 2007 3:11:20 PM

well i asume this error does not happen with XP as how many users have XP computers with raptors

if thay are even reading this post do the Raptors work when thay are setup in RAID 0 as the OS no longer has direct access to the hard disk so i asume the prolem would go away (goes tho an driver that access the raid array) unless it is an Vista + Nvidia problem + WD in the same pc (i blame Nvidia drivers still but thay did test intel and nvidia chip sets so we could blame M$ VIsta with its New driver model there be an fix i guess from windows update on vista to resove this {probly do that Debug thing on vista start up})

heh fun fun
June 25, 2007 3:45:14 PM

Quote:
Also, when Vista was installed on a system using an ATI graphics card (X1900 line), no errors appeared, even when the WD1500 was used.


With this statement it seems the problem has nothing to do with WD and lies more in the lap of Nvidia. To confirm the problem they should have tested the setup with other video cards like Matrox or other integrated solutions like VIA. If the problem doesnt exist between those manufacturers and WD then it definitely points to Nvidia.

This makes more sense as we've seen in past articles that the IO on Nvidia's hard disk controller is truly pathetic. And even to this day, months and months after the 8800 series, Nvidia still has some issues that need to be addressed with their graphics cards.

Quote:
Until now, we had quite a number of WD1500s in use in our Lab. However, the recurrence of the problems detailed above and its comparatively low capacity of only 150GB - which is hardly state of the art - force us to part ways with this model. Tom's Hardware will no longer the WD1500 for testing from our Munich labs.

In the end the truth is finally revealed. They just wanted an excuse to bash WD for something that is probably not their fault. This sounds more like a way of validating another manufacturer paying more money to advertise their products in THG's benchmark tests.[/quote]

I'll toss my 2 cents worth in. Some of the listed bugs, such as clicking on "Control Panel", "My Computer", have shown up on my computer while using XP. Further, on that computer, I'm not using a Raptor, but a Seagate drive. The one common thing is that I have a card from Nvidia, a 7800 GTX model. After installing a 8800 GTS on a second computer, also using XP but having a Hitachi drive, I started having similar problems. This time I went to Nvidia and found a notice that their 7XXX and 8XXX cards have known issues with AMD CPUs and require changes in the registry to accomidate their cards. I didn't see a problem stated concerning Intel CPUs, but I wasn't looking for that, so a notice for Intel problems might have existed that I didn't see.

I have a 150 gig Raptor in a third computer that uses Vista and have had no problems so far. Oh, did I mention that it uses a ATI X1900 XTX? To quote a line from the so called review in the first paragraph on page 4, "Also, when Vista was installed on a system using an ATI graphics card (X1900 line), no errors appeared, even when the WD1500 was used". What's this? The Raptor works fine with an ATI card, but not with an Nvidia card. So the reviewer says that the problem is with the hard drive, not the with Nvidia. That sounds like some extremely biased reporting to me.

So in my experience, I've seen similar errors that the reviewer noted with Vista and the WD1500 on two computers that use XP and different make hard srives (Seagate and Hitachi), having only an Nvidia card in common. I've so no such error in a computer that uses Vista and an ATI X1900 XTX. In my opinion and estimation, that points more to a video card problem than a hard drive problem. Of course, this reflects just the experience of myself and not that of the esteemed reviewer.
June 25, 2007 3:52:04 PM

To all those saying they should test it with XP, XP has a different device driver model, so if the contention that the problem is the driver is correct, then testing XP will accomplish precisely nothing.

It would be nice to have more explanation as to what the tool that is claimed to solve the problem does, and how they figured out to do that something.
June 25, 2007 4:21:17 PM

Uh, I had the same problem with XP SP2.

I thought it was a possible virus problem so I ghosted to an earlier image of XP from March.

Its working perfectly now.

I have Vista Ultimate 64 on a separate drive using dual boot. I haven't noticed any issues but honestly I hardly ever use it and it seems frought with pop messages and weirdness anyways so how can you tell???? :roll:
June 25, 2007 4:38:26 PM

I think the testing leaves alot to be desired but the conclusions are the same 8800 + WD + Vista = problem.

If it was a choice in my machine Vista would go first (not even there till SP1 or SP2) then the raptor. Why junk a £250 graphics card before a £150 hard drive.
June 25, 2007 4:55:56 PM

I have 2 Raptor 74gb drives running in RAID 0 using Abits IN32x-MAX onboard controller, and a Point of View 8800GTX and i'm running Vista Home Premium 32bit. So far I have had none of the problems described in the article and i've been running Vista for over 3 weeks.
June 25, 2007 5:14:53 PM

good 2 know, i just got my raptor by the mailman today, not that i wanna use vista anyways but still. :oops: 
June 25, 2007 5:42:18 PM

I have a pair of Raptor 150's (non-Raid) and an 8800GTX running under Vista Ultimate 32 with no problems at all. My second machine is running a 74 gig Raptor and a pair of 36 gig Raptors with a 8800GTS 320 and Vista Home Premium with no problems. My last machine is running a 74 gig Raptor with a 6800GT card and Win XP Pro. No problems.
June 25, 2007 6:02:45 PM

:)  thank u for letting me know, got a little scared there.. but whats up with the tom's article then O.o

btw i can see you run vista with 4gb ram can u feel anything from going to 2gb to 4gb?
June 25, 2007 6:12:43 PM

After reading this article twice over I still find myself very perplexed by the conclusion. The article itself attempts to solidify a logical argument, but the article seems thrown together with a lot of potentially key testing factors missing. Also... it just felt like there was some agenda at work here.

They prove it to be an issue with Vista when using both 7xxx-8xxx Nvidia graphics cards and the WD Raptor 150. They then go on to prove that the issue does not occur when using an ATI card... further isolating the issue to Nvidia's corner... yet the conclusion is to shun WD Raptors from the testing labs.

To me this is false logic... the conclusion doesn't represent a totality of the facts. What else is going on here I wonder?
June 25, 2007 6:17:48 PM

Upon my last refresh of THG... the article has magically went *poof*! out of existence from the main page.

heh... nvm... its still on the UK one.
June 25, 2007 7:08:17 PM

Quote:
Upon my last refresh of THG... the article has magically went *poof*! out of existence from the main page.

Maybe they are debugging someone... I think that article is the worst I've ever read here at Toms, looks like put together using a shovel. I also wonder what that debugging tool is doing, as far as I know debugging tools finds bugs and writes a logfile, fixing the errors is done by the user of the debugging tool.

My guess is that when booting the "debugging" tool is changing some registry setting that for some reason is changed when the computer is shut down.

I wonder if this is related to the iaStorV.sys error on some intel chipsets.
June 25, 2007 7:29:23 PM

To : bullaRh

I went with 4 gigs on my new build because I got a good deal on the memory. I plan on installing Ultimate 64 on this machine soon and figured the extra 2 gigs could not hurt any. Right now Vista "sees" 3.25 gigs. Have I noticed any difference between 2 and 4 gigs? Maybe a little, but it would be more subjective as I have not run any benchmarks.
June 25, 2007 7:58:12 PM

i hope these "issues" are sorted out in SP1
June 25, 2007 7:59:42 PM

I'm running Vista Ultimate 32-bit in a dual boot with XP Pro on a 74gb Raptor with a 150gb Raptor X as game install drive and an Xfx 8800 GTX. I have yet to see any problems like those mentioned.
June 25, 2007 8:00:36 PM

thats coz your using a different HDD contoller
June 26, 2007 2:20:32 AM

Quote:
After reading this article twice over I still find myself very perplexed by the conclusion. The article itself attempts to solidify a logical argument, but the article seems thrown together with a lot of potentially key testing factors missing. Also... it just felt like there was some agenda at work here.

They prove it to be an issue with Vista when using both 7xxx-8xxx Nvidia graphics cards and the WD Raptor 150. They then go on to prove that the issue does not occur when using an ATI card... further isolating the issue to Nvidia's corner... yet the conclusion is to shun WD Raptors from the testing labs.

To me this is false logic... the conclusion doesn't represent a totality of the facts. What else is going on here I wonder?


That's basically the point I was making in my post above. They experienced a problem, they figured out it occured with the Nvidia card but not the ATI card, so they choose to blame the Raptor. Makes me wonder what they been drinking, or smoking. There is no logic to their conclusion unless they just have a personal grudge for some reason and found an excuse to vent it. The logical conclusion would be that Nvidia still needs to work on their drivers so that their cards work with Vista.
June 26, 2007 6:38:56 AM

My guess is that they decided to ditch the Raptor because its a bit tricky to do game reviews without an Nvidia card... :lol: 

However, it sounds to me like both need to be ditched in reality.


Oh, and guys... can I have your old Raptors please?
:wink:
June 27, 2007 12:27:26 PM

I have the nvidia mobo, an 8800GTX and some WD 150 raptors in a raid 6 array on an Areca PCi express RAID card - and I see this issue using vista32bit (not tried 64 bit vista).

I have never seen the issue using XP sp2. The system is rock solid stable under XP sp2.

From 2 days testing I've found that I only see the problem when I have the nvidia version 15.00 platform driver installed (not tried any prior versions), i.e. with only the Vista drivers installed following Vista installation on the raid6 array plus maybe a windows update chipset update (I haven't studied exactly what the first windows update did yet) and the 158.45 video drivers, I don't see the issue. At least not yet - I've only had Vista installed for 2 days.

Pleased that THG are reporting it but utterly bemused, to the point of screaming and pulling my hair out, as to why its as clear as mud what the debug tool does. Very amateurish - not what I expect from THG.

Unfortunately I have no ATI cards to test. I do have other hdds and I may look at troubleshooting this further.
June 27, 2007 12:41:05 PM

I think the issue occurs when the Raptors are on the motherboards HD controller not on an expansion card.
June 27, 2007 12:43:35 PM

hmm, no. I see the issue and I my raptors are in a raid array on an expansion card.
June 27, 2007 12:53:42 PM

My mistake. reading through the article again I found this.

Quote:
In our experience, operating the drive on an (expensive) add-in controller does not avoid the issue.
June 27, 2007 3:20:27 PM

I still can't figure out what exactly the problem is supposed to be?

A button on the vista menu is unclickable...I've had that happen in XP on various machines, the answer is the OS is pitching a fit atm, please try again in a few seconds.

I have Vista x64 Ultimate with a 150 Raptor X and an Nvidia 8800 GTS and I have seen nothing remotely resembling any thing that might have been mentioned in the article.

The UAC annoyance is the worst I get.
June 27, 2007 5:35:50 PM

The control panel window opens but is completely devoid of icons; more than a little annoying I think.

Right click on the desktop and select personalise desktop does nothing at all, not even an empty window.

Most other functionality is unaffected.
August 19, 2007 5:11:14 PM

Sadly I didn't read this post until AFTER I put together my rig. As of now I have a MSI P6N diamond, q6600 Quad Core, EVGA 8800GTX and of course 2 wd1500 Raptors.

I first tried to run Raid and Vista 64 would see it but freeze when expanding the install. Then I tried Vista 32 and the same thing would happen freeze at expanding. I removed the raid and kept one drive in, Vista 64 didnt even see the drive. So I tried Vista 32bit and it saw the drive and installed fine. My problem of course is I have a 64bit processor I want Vista 64 in my system and I want it running in Raid. Is it really such an issue that even 2 months after this article there still hasnt been a fix posted?

Can anyone help please!?
August 21, 2007 12:16:57 AM

No one?
August 21, 2007 1:05:20 AM

I am sorry but this points to the classic hardware conflict with the OS helping right along. Even if Vista has a different hardware manager/layer it still needs to play nice with others. I would lay blame on two of the vendors. M$oft and one of the other two hardware vendors. I used to see similar issues with modems and other sound devices. If you placed the sound card in first and fully configured then the modem would place itself PnP around the sound card. The modem had more robust driver set. If you placed the modem first the sound card would install itself over the default selection that the modem would choose. Thereby giving a hardware conflict. So the fix? Install the sound card first. Simple. It would seem that they have similar issue with a hardware conflict probably given the new hardware manager and the PnP used.

This is just a guess from the info provided but I would be willing to bet money on it. All they need to do is a little more isolation testing and things would probably work themselves out. Might even be as simple as the mobo selecting a hardware location for the Raptor that is later in the same location as the vid card want's to place itself.

Too little info to discern really.
August 21, 2007 1:10:33 AM

In fact,

After re-reading this these folks must be young and have never had to resolve hardware conflicts as everything they describe is just that a hardware conflict. I understand that is what they are stating too. But there is almost ALWAYS a work around. Try adding devices in a different order. Change the configuration of the device. Change the hardware location of the device. Once you have the rue culprit just remember you install procedures. Not really that hard.
August 21, 2007 1:11:46 AM

In fact why don't we all just give up on that premium hardware when things get a little bit tough..

Yeah that is what we should teach the kids..

Grrrrrrrrrrrr!!!
January 21, 2008 10:20:39 PM

I had issues with 3 Raptor 150's in my new Rig with an nVidia 680i M/B but I can't blame nVidia nor Western Digital and I doubt the Video Cards had anything to do with it.

First off, troubleshooting takes a great deal of knowledge in order to find out actualy what's going wrong. It's easy to just keep replacing things untill you find the culprit, if you have the Money.

Like allot have posted here, it could be allot of issues. Power Supply, Chipset, the H/D itself, bad BIOS the list goes on and on.

When you have either a Hardware conflict or Hardware not performing like it should you have to take many things into concideration such as what is it doing, did it work before something happened like a BIOS or driver update etc.

Toms article shows the yank and replace method of troubleshooting, not real trobleshooting. When you do it this way you might be eliminating the issue, not the problem and to accuse one manufacturer for a problem that hasn't really been solved is poor tech advice to say the least.

After going after the H/D problem in a methotdical maner I found, after allot of headaches, the problem was as simple as the wrong SATA Cable.
I used the Cables supplied by nVidia and found they weren't supporting the Data transfer rates and it was wreaking havoc because the Bottleneck was within the Cable, not the video Cards, Chipset nor BIOS and especially not with Windows Vista.
When I replaced the Cables everything worked fine.
Another issue with these H/D's has to do with the nVidia BIOS and memory Blocking. This must be disabled or the H/D's will not work at all.

I think if People sat down and studied their systems more and tinkered less we wouldn't have issues and arguments like this.
!