Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

Passive cooling P!!! 733Mhz ?

Tags:
  • CPUs
  • Cooling
  • Fan
  • Product
Last response: in CPUs
Share
June 26, 2007 11:30:25 AM

i want to know how easy or hard is to make the cpu run without fan but heatsink only. i have spare AMD cooler for Athlon x2 am2. if i put that on without fan somehow would that be sufficient? oh and advices on a silent psu? need only 250 or maybe less for the old atx that was with pentium 3. *making a media pc*

More about : passive cooling 733mhz

June 26, 2007 12:01:26 PM

why don't you go new system? get something like the thermalright ultra 120, with an e4300@1200mhz, and an hd2600xt passive? fast and cool.pitty the 2600 isnt out yet
June 26, 2007 12:10:30 PM

well i have the old p3 doing nothing.. i want it to put it to use. dont have the money for a new pc either.
Related resources
June 26, 2007 12:41:51 PM

ahh, ok, well i'd say if you could get that x2 HSF to mount properly get good contact ext it would be great, i had some old hp pos that ran a passive 850 on a hsf similar to that
June 26, 2007 1:49:58 PM

I used to run a Celeron 533 (Coppermine) fanless with an Orb cooler back in the day but that was with the Vcore reduced in the BIOS. I tried the same trick with Pentium 3 667 but it ran too hot. The Orb is a basic heatsink by today’s standards so a half decent modern heatsink will handle it fine.
If you’re on a tight budget try something like a Scythe Katana as that supports S370. If it doesn’t work fanless then use the fan and set the RPM to 5V or so at which point you will not hear it. I used a Katana with a Core 2 Duo with the fan at low speed and it had no problem cooling it. Katana details here:
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cpu/012/scktn_detail....

If your BIOS allows under-volting then try that as well; not many S370 boards allow that.

I have a Silverstone ST30NF which is a nice 300W fanless power supply: http://www.silverstonetek.com/products/p_contents.php?p...
June 26, 2007 2:26:46 PM

Quote:
i want to know how easy or hard is to make the cpu run without fan but heatsink only. i have spare AMD cooler for Athlon x2 am2. if i put that on without fan somehow would that be sufficient? oh and advices on a silent psu? need only 250 or maybe less for the old atx that was with pentium 3. *making a media pc*

You can do it even with some existing hardware but these points are to be considered:
-You have to mod the AMD heatsink to fit a P3 socket
-To work properly it has to be at least one of the copper-finned or better the heatpipe AMD heatsink because the plain aluminum one is the worst you can get.
-The case would better be a Micro ATX mini tower for best efficiency
-Place a good 120mm fan at the rear of your case and extend a duct to fit the heatsink so you can absorb all the hot air away efficiently
-look for the socket 370 vcore mods to drop the voltage.
-look for a fanless PSU; I have seen some with large cooling fins extending outside.
...Anyway, a $26 Socket 754 Sempron 3000+ locked to 800-1000mhz and undervolted to 1.1V comfortably from windows with RMClock will:
-run cooler
-perform better
-require cheaper DDR compared to SDR RAM
-not require you to mod the cooler you already have
June 26, 2007 3:43:09 PM

Quote:
If your BIOS allows under-volting then try that as well; not many S370 boards allow that.


Two words: pin mod.
June 26, 2007 6:23:22 PM

Once upon a time a had a coppermine (733) that I had ran passively inadvertently. One day I popped it open to replace the HD and found my non functioning cpu fan. The processor had been running fine. I was heavy into BF1942 at the time and would have noticed any throttling.
My point is that it can't be too hard to do.
June 26, 2007 6:52:42 PM

Quote:
Once upon a time a had a coppermine (733) that I had ran passively inadvertently. One day I popped it open to replace the HD and found my non functioning cpu fan. The processor had been running fine. I was heavy into BF1942 at the time and would have noticed any throttling. My point is that it can't be too hard to do.

I think you’re missing the point here, we know it’s not hard to do; it’s more a matter of what’s the minimum spec heatsink that it requires.
I’ve passively cooled a C2D @ 2.4GHz so a coppermine with its large die and low TDP is relatively trivial.
June 26, 2007 6:55:57 PM

I'm not missing the point. I'm stating that in my case it simply worked with no modification even if by accident.
June 26, 2007 7:00:49 PM

Quote:
I'm not missing the point. I'm stating that in my case it simply worked with no modification even if by accident.

OK, what heatsink were you using?
June 26, 2007 7:38:37 PM

Quote:
OK, what heatsink were you using?


Stock? That was many moons,(computers) ago.
June 26, 2007 7:44:39 PM

Quote:
OK, what heatsink were you using?

Stock? That was many moons,(computers) ago.
Does that mean you don't remember?

If you weren't using the stock cooler then it invalidates your premise.

BTW, I don't think coppermine supported thermal throttling, I think that came in with the P4.
June 26, 2007 7:47:55 PM

It was stock. I just don't recall exactly what it looked like. I don't know if there were different stock coolers. I do know I never upgraded it from the stock cooler.
June 26, 2007 7:54:55 PM

Quote:
It was stock.

You managed better than I did although it may be that I was put off by Intel’s published figures for max temps and I could have pushed it more. In those pre thermal throttling days I was more conservative.
Do you remember if you used a case fan? That would have helped and I didn’t start using those until my first P4.
a b à CPUs
June 26, 2007 8:05:12 PM

Yeh, Dell didn't passively cool them, they just used a ducted fan.
June 26, 2007 8:10:58 PM

You got me curious so after digging through a pile of computer case boxes etc. I found the old guy (never threw it out). I had one intake fan and the power supply actually overlapped the cpu socket area. It's 80mm fan would have been pulling some air from right over the cpu heat sink before exhausting.
June 26, 2007 8:19:53 PM

Quote:
Well Dell always used passive cooling on the P3's but they ducted case sides funneling in air to the heatsink and the heatsinks were 2-3 times the size of a X2 heatsink. I really dont think it would be sufficient.
Why not use a fan??


they still passively cool the x2s in the dimensions
June 26, 2007 8:53:25 PM

Quote:
You got me curious so after digging through a pile of computer case boxes etc. I found the old guy (never threw it out). I had one intake fan and the power supply actually overlapped the cpu socket area. It's 80mm fan would have been pulling some air from right over the cpu heat sink before exhausting.

I’d almost forgotten about power supplies that overlap the CPU; that must have helped. From your experience it sounds worth a go, although I just remembered that the OP also asked about a fanless power supply so he may need to use a case fan. In which case I suggest using a 120mm case fan as they can be very quiet.

Personally I think that fanless cooling is over rated as if you use low noise fans, ducting and under-volt the CPU and fans you’ll get a better solution. I’ve been building very low noise systems for 7 or 8 years now and hard drives are the hardest think to manage; I can’t wait for cheap flash drives. :D 
June 26, 2007 8:56:37 PM

A P3 733 at stock voltage with the stock heatsink can idle in windows w/ACPI-HALT-Cooling all day long without a fan, as it's roughly 8W.

Full load is a different story. You don't need a giant heatsink (and frankly I'd be careful with on, since trying to strap a modern giant sized sink onto the socket 370 lugs is likely to result in it not making good contact, or it would have to be stapped down so tightly that it was a risk of cracking the naked P3 core.

You don't need a copper or copper bottomed heatsink, the P3 does not have high enough thermal density for it to matter at 733MHz and stock or lower vcore. The heatsink limitation is the basic fin conductivity and fin surface area. You'll want a 'sink with a lot of tall widely spaced tines and/or ideally a duct attached to either the PSU intake or the case exhaust.

Do you really need this passive? You can get a no-frills all aluminum socket A heatsink wearing a 80x25mm fan for about $6. Undervolt that fan so it runs at 5V or about 400-1000 RPM and it will live long and do so silently, with minimal dust buildup since it is such a low airflow rate.

As others mentioned lowering the vcore is a good thing to try. Depends on which coppermine stepping it is, how low you'd be likely able to go. "Some" of the mid to later steppings could do 733MHz at around 1.35-1.4V, and AFAIK none of them required as much as 1.6V to run stabily at a mere 733MHz.

However, we haven't even addressed the purpose of the system. For some uses even a P3 733 would be overkill and could be downclocked to 550MHz or even lower without any real penalty. For example one of my oldest fileservers does RAID and GbE and still has a Celeron 500 in it. It's not CPU limited, never peaks above 70% utilization and even that only for fractions of a second at a time. IOW, if you can underclock it, you can undervolt even more.

P3 did have thermal shutdown integral. I suggest you set it up, fire up CPUBurn or Prime95's Torture test and touch-test the heatsink to see how hot it is. If you can leave your fingers on for a few seconds it's cool enough (obviously Prime95 shouldn't err either).
June 26, 2007 9:19:35 PM

Quote:

I’ve been building very low noise systems for 7 or 8 years now and hard drives are the hardest think to manage; I can’t wait for cheap flash drives. :D 


Sorry for going off topic but now you've hit something I've given a lot of thought to.

My antec case is by no means a quiet system but still the hard drives are the loudest components. I'm coveting two ssd's in raid 0. I'm hoping the combination of Raid 0 and ssd access time will perform well. I've decided that when I can buy two 64gig sata ssd's for a total cost of 1000 CDN inc. tax I'm in. I know that bigger cheaper ones will come out soon after but I've picked that as my commit point. If they get faster sooner maybe I'll commit one drive at a time.
June 26, 2007 9:24:04 PM

Is it a Socket PIII or Slot PIII. Cuz you might get the HS on the Socket one, but not on the Slot one.
June 26, 2007 10:36:25 PM

Quote:
I’ve been building very low noise systems for 7 or 8 years now and hard drives are the hardest think to manage; I can’t wait for cheap flash drives. :D 

My antec case is by no means a quiet system but still the hard drives are the loudest components.
If you only need 1 or 2 drives then you can make it very very close to silent now and there’s no need to wait for SSDs.
To start with you need to choose a drive that is inherently quiet and engage its Acoustic Management features if you are looking for the lowest possible noise. Samsung and Western Digital typically have the quietest drives; check www.silentpcreview.com for details.
I use an Antec P180/182 and it’s very well designed for low noise computing with a bit of tweaking. Just focussing on the hard drive situation these are the two solutions that have worked for me.

1. Remove the drive bay in the lower chamber and place a foam sheet on the floor of this chamber and rest your drive on it. Replace the Antec fan in the lower chamber with a Nexus 120mm fan and lower the speed to ~600 RPM.

2. Remove the drive cage in the main chamber of the case. Place a foam sheet on the floor of this chamber and sit your drive on top of it. I actually place my drive in a very basic metal hard drive cooler and sit this on top of the foam. The cooler is basically a thin metal sheet that covers the bottom and sides of the drive and hardly helps the temperature. It does though create a useful means by which I can easily attach an 80mm fan to cool the drive. I slide the drive forward so that part of the cooler is exposed and attach the fan to the free part of the cooler; I’m using elastic bands to hold it in place. I under-volt the Nexus fan to 5V or so and it easily cools the drive; it’s a 400GB Samsung and its temperature is never more than 30/31 Centigrade. Without the fan the temperature can easily climb to 50C I remember. With the fan being so close it doesn’t need to move much air to significantly reduce the temperature.
June 26, 2007 11:19:27 PM

I can't imagine it'd be that hard to run of those passively, my old p4 2.66 ran passively, my friend now has that system and it still runs fine and at acceptable temps, and my athlon 64 3500+ is running passively right now at 52c at about 75% load as i type this.

Just make sure you have good case cooling, and I'm not sure how you're gonna mod that heatsink to fit on a p3 though :?
a b à CPUs
June 26, 2007 11:37:37 PM

Quote:
i want to know how easy or hard is to make the cpu run without fan but heatsink only. i have spare AMD cooler for Athlon x2 am2. if i put that on without fan somehow would that be sufficient? oh and advices on a silent psu? need only 250 or maybe less for the old atx that was with pentium 3. *making a media pc*


that 733 aint goin to be a good media pc - DVD wont play back on anything less then P4 (A 1.2ghz Tualatin still wont play dvds properly without skipping), and forget about recording things (encoding performance).

As for passive operation, why not just volt mod all the fans to 7.5v or even 5v (some fans wont work at 5v so beware)?
June 26, 2007 11:44:53 PM

Quote:
that 733 aint goin to be a good media pc - DVD wont play back on anything less then P4 (A 1.2ghz Tualatin still wont play dvds properly without skipping), and forget about recording things (encoding performance).

As long as your GPU performs MPEG2 decoding you don’t need anything fast. I used to watch DVDs with a Celeron 533 (coppermine) and an ATI card no problem.
June 27, 2007 12:15:16 AM

Do not set a drive with circuit-board down on foam, that has a high potential to at least corrupt it from chipset lockup, if not permanent damage. On the other hand, if it's flipped over and there's still some airflow over the PCB it should do ok.
June 27, 2007 12:24:42 AM

Quote:
that 733 aint goin to be a good media pc - DVD wont play back on anything less then P4 (A 1.2ghz Tualatin still wont play dvds properly without skipping), and forget about recording things (encoding performance).


You must be joking. Even a lowly K6-3/450MHz can play back a DVD flawlessly, providing the video has at least partial MPEG acceleration (and anything from ATI around '98 did, anything from nVidia did from about '99-'00, and now integrated video does too). I just ended up trashing my Aunt's old system which was K6-2/450 & Voodoo2 video (or was it Voodoo3, I mean the first Voodoo generation that wasn't only an accelerator) which we watched DVDs on frequently.

You have some other hardware configuration problem if a Tualatin can't play a DVD, probably the video card driver as a Tualatin can even fully software decode a DVD fine, or maybe the optical drive was in PIO Mode and it sucked up too much of the CPU time.

MPEG4, especially 4/10 is another story requiring far more decoding muscle as nothing but the newest generations of video cards have sufficient decoding but DVD is only a matter of a correct configured system newer than about 9 years old.

Quote:
As for passive operation, why not just volt mod all the fans to 7.5v or even 5v (some fans wont work at 5v so beware)?


yes that's a good idea, or go for a current limiting solution instead like using a series resistor on each fan, around 68 Ohm for fans spec'd above 0.18A current and around 100Ohm for those spec'd below that. The benefit of the series resistor is that some fans start pulsating below a certain RPM which can actually create more noise than if they'd ran a little faster, and that pulsation is from the current surge at each (n)th energization of the motor, so current limiting resistors directly combat this effect unlike steady voltage or many PWM controllers.
June 27, 2007 12:32:49 AM

I can watch movies just fine on my Dad's 500MHz Celeron laptop.
June 27, 2007 9:39:23 AM

Quote:
Do not set a drive with circuit-board down on foam, that has a high potential to at least corrupt it from chipset lockup, if not permanent damage. On the other hand, if it's flipped over and there's still some airflow over the PCB it should do ok.

I’ve been doing this for many years without problems, but as you say better safe than sorry.
My current drive sits in a metal drive cooler and the cooler sits on the foam which removes this potential risk.
June 27, 2007 10:30:42 AM

You should be fine as long as your case has good airflow,otherwise you'll end up with overheating issues.A P3 733mhz cpu still runs quite warm.I would get the heatsink to fit,then I would install a fan just for safeties sake.Besides,if you can make it work,just think of the overclocking potential.Goodluck.

Dahak

AMD X2 5600+ @ 2.8ghz(stock)
M2N32-SLI DELUXE MB
2 GIGS DDR2 800 RAM
THERMALTAKE 850WATT PSU
7950GT KO(WAITING FOR MY OTHER TO COME BACK FROM RMA)
ACER 22IN. LCD
SMILIDON RAIDMAX GAMING CASE
80GIG/250gig SATA2 HD's
XP MCE
June 27, 2007 11:53:10 AM

Quote:


that 733 aint goin to be a good media pc - DVD wont play back on anything less then P4 (A 1.2ghz Tualatin still wont play dvds properly without skipping), and forget about recording things (encoding performance).


Well THAT'S certainly rot! I have a P3-1000 S370 non-tualatin, still running W2K, built in 2001 as an editor. It plays DVDs via software perfectly, and does analog captures to AVI (huf or YV12) with no dropped frames and 75% CPU utilization. It is still an active video editor/multimedia machine. Mpeg2 renders are a bit long for current preferences, but my C2D takes care of the back-end stuff. The computer I'm on right now is a Slot 1 P3-600, and it does DVDs on a Matrox G200, and handles most (not all) online video content. The faster P3s were great chips, the Tualatin even more so.
June 27, 2007 2:20:11 PM

Quote:
Do not set a drive with circuit-board down on foam, that has a high potential to at least corrupt it from chipset lockup, if not permanent damage. On the other hand, if it's flipped over and there's still some airflow over the PCB it should do ok.

I’ve been doing this for many years without problems, but as you say better safe than sorry.
My current drive sits in a metal drive cooler and the cooler sits on the foam which removes this potential risk.

It is very likely to overheat the drive. Some drives will overheat just sitting on a desk, not even being insulated by foam.

If the drive cooler has great design so it passively causes airflow through it, or has a built-in fan(s), that would be great but frankly these measures shouldn't be necessary for most people, drives, environments. Typically all that's needed is a rubber grommet mounting to the case, unless the case is terribly cheap (thin metal and gaps prone to vibrate/resonate).
June 27, 2007 2:26:01 PM

Quote:
You should be fine as long as your case has good airflow,otherwise you'll end up with overheating issues.A P3 733mhz cpu still runs quite warm.


No, a P3 733 doesn't run very warm at all. You can use a $2 heatsink (w/fan) to cool one and even then undervolt the fan to 5V.

Intel Specs a P3/733 as having a max TDP (thermal design power) of a mere 19.1W, and that is using special scenarios to produce high load, not intermittent loading as you'd have in any typical application scenario where an aging CPU would be appropriate. At idle it would run cool enough passively cooled without even one single fan in the system, but a proper design will keep it cool enough at full load, since various things can unintentionally cause (near enough to) full load temps like if the OS locks up ceasing to send the HALT-idle commands.
June 27, 2007 3:45:28 PM

Quote:
It is very likely to overheat the drive. Some drives will overheat just sitting on a desk, not even being insulated by foam.

If the drive cooler has great design so it passively causes airflow through it, or has a built-in fan(s), that would be great but frankly these measures shouldn't be necessary for most people, drives, environments. Typically all that's needed is a rubber grommet mounting to the case, unless the case is terribly cheap (thin metal and gaps prone to vibrate/resonate).

As I said I’ve been using this method for years with no drive failures. I use an Antec P180/182 nowadays and make sure that the drive receives some airflow otherwise the temps get a bit high for my comfort although still within spec.
I’m currently using a Nexus 80mm at about 5V and it keep the drive at 30C.

I’ve tried alternative drive mounting methods and they just can’t compete with foam in my experience. Now that I have the drive in a small metal carrier it removes the risk of the foam damaging the drive that some people are wary of.
June 27, 2007 4:25:06 PM

Quote:
As I said I’ve been using this method for years with no drive failures.


And as I've said, it's likely to kill the drive. If the manufacturers had no care about this they would not leave the PCB exposed, it is subjecting the drive to potential ESD damage as well as impact damage which costs them more than a 3 cent piece of foam would. Instead they accept it to keep airflow around the PCB.
June 27, 2007 5:29:43 PM

Quote:
And as I've said, it's likely to kill the drive. If the manufacturers had no care about this they would not leave the PCB exposed, it is subjecting the drive to potential ESD damage as well as impact damage which costs them more than a 3 cent piece of foam would. Instead they accept it to keep airflow around the PCB.

The difference is I’m talking from experience and you are talking theoretically. :p 

I don’t think that hard drive PCBs are that sensitive to ESD, otherwise they’d be enclosed.
July 4, 2007 7:23:15 AM

Quote:
And as I've said, it's likely to kill the drive. If the manufacturers had no care about this they would not leave the PCB exposed, it is subjecting the drive to potential ESD damage as well as impact damage which costs them more than a 3 cent piece of foam would. Instead they accept it to keep airflow around the PCB.

The difference is I’m talking from experience and you are talking theoretically. :p 

I don’t think that hard drive PCBs are that sensitive to ESD, otherwise they’d be enclosed.

Not at all, you seem to have an extremely limited experience as an end-user, while I have had drive after drive show lockup from this.

I don't know how to say it gently, but you are foolish, just plain wrong to advocate something others have clearly shown is problematic.
July 4, 2007 10:16:32 AM

Quote:
Not at all, you seem to have an extremely limited experience as an end-user, while I have had drive after drive show lockup from this.

I’m glad you have clarified that this has been a significant problem for you as from your previous posts this wasn’t clear to me. Would you expand on the nature of the exact problems that you have experienced in this area?

Quote:
I don't know how to say it gently, but you are foolish, just plain wrong to advocate something others have clearly shown is problematic.

Nobody has yet clearly shown me that this is a problem but if they do I will certainly take it under advisement. You stated that “it's likely to kill the drive”, but without further elaboration I can’t know how meaningful your experience is so I will tend to place more weight on my own personal experience. Again, if you would elaborate on your experiences in this area I would be grateful.
July 4, 2007 11:32:31 AM

You must be kidding, I really need to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak, educating you from square one about providing sufficient cooling instead of insulating a drive by putting a layer of foam against it?

Have you not heard of any of the drives that succumb to failure when allowed to overheat? Maybe you should go to storagereview.com and see some failure rates, or even easier, just stop disregarding each report in turn, as if you can discount them all because you "think" you know better?

Sorry, but I'm not interested in an argument, anyone naive enough to disregard time-tested cooling can try your foam-insulated EZ-Bake-Oven strategy to cooling a drive if they like. It's not my data.
July 4, 2007 12:47:20 PM

Quote:
You must be kidding, I really need to "reinvent the wheel" so to speak, educating you from square one about providing sufficient cooling instead of insulating a drive by putting a layer of foam against it?
Have you not heard of any of the drives that succumb to failure when allowed to overheat? Maybe you should go to storagereview.com and see some failure rates, or even easier, just stop disregarding each report in turn, as if you can discount them all because you "think" you know better?
Sorry, but I'm not interested in an argument, anyone naive enough to disregard time-tested cooling can try your foam-insulated EZ-Bake-Oven strategy to cooling a drive if they like. It's not my data.

I mentioned monitoring of drive temps in a previous post so I don’t know why you are referring to this issue at all!
Quote:
As I said I’ve been using this method for years with no drive failures. I use an Antec P180/182 nowadays and make sure that the drive receives some airflow otherwise the temps get a bit high for my comfort although still within spec. I’m currently using a Nexus 80mm at about 5V and it keeps the drive at 30C.


Instead I was asking you to back up this assertion.
Quote:
Do not set a drive with circuit-board down on foam, that has a high potential to at least corrupt it from chipset lockup, if not permanent damage.

Have you had much experience with this issue or are you stating a general concern?
As I stated previously I’ve had no problems with using foam to reduce drive noise as I monitor and moderate the drive temps. But if I am taking a significant risk by using foam I’d be grateful if you’d share any first hand experience that you have.
!