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System Builder Marathon, Sept. '09: AMD System Value Compared

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September 29, 2009 6:14:20 AM

So when will these things be given away?
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September 29, 2009 6:21:08 AM

Wait one more day, they should have the contest page up tomorrow (I guess so anyway)
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September 29, 2009 6:26:22 AM

Out of the 3 of them, got to love the $1250 one. Especially since it has "quadfire" on-board. Don, u made at least one reader happy :) .

On another note, this reminds me of the 3x260 vs 2x280 article you guys wrote a while back so i would like to see, if possible, another follow up article based on this concept of "the more the merrier"

Lastly, don't be shy in using more then 2 graphics cards in future system builder marathons since it's a nice change of air.
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September 29, 2009 6:36:48 AM

that 650 SBM would look great on my desk beside my aging computer... Btw does it run on diesel?
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September 29, 2009 6:56:03 AM

SpadeMOut of the 3 of them, got to love the $1250 one. Especially since it has "quadfire" on-board. Don, u made at least one reader happy . On another note, this reminds me of the 3x260 vs 2x280 article you guys wrote a while back so i would like to see, if possible, another follow up article based on this concept of "the more the merrier"Lastly, don't be shy in using more then 2 graphics cards in future system builder marathons since it's a nice change of air.

Now I want to see a Pentium four paired with 4x 5870... I'm serius.
Though some of us are iffy about multiple cards. Heavily diminishing returns do come into effect with a multi-card setup.
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September 29, 2009 7:06:18 AM

Now can we get a comparison between these SBM Ati/AMD setups vs an updated Intel/Nvidia SBM setups. Instead of the previous April setups you guys compared these ATi/AMD computers it would be great if you could build updated systems with Nvidia cards in SLI with the new i5 and updated i7 chips. Perhaps still including the Qextreme chips if need be. It would be a true comparison to see which system would be the most worth it to buy for the price ranges.

Then it would be great to see a chart with all of these systems being compared. For instance seeing the 3x4890 $2,500 build vs an i7 3xGTx285 build for the same price! Pls try to include AA in crysis benches even though they might be low in 2560x1600, at least we will get an idea of how important the next gen cards will stack up and utilize the AA x4 and DX11. Thanks and nice work as these articles are interesting. You guys should make a magazine or supply articles to the likes of PC world for real bench testing and not general reviews.
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September 29, 2009 7:58:46 AM

I always thought more than 2 gfx cards was a waste of money but it seems to work ok for you guys despite the slugish cpus.

good marathon.
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September 29, 2009 7:59:02 AM

All of these builds look great to me.I am impressed by the ingenious way you folks have put these together it was very inventive.I liked the quadfire $1,250 system build as well.You have shocked us all here I think (well many of us) and done these builds in some unusual ways quite a surprise.
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September 29, 2009 8:55:17 AM

demonhorde665why the hell does every ioen call amd cpu's "sluggish" for f--ks sake theya re any thing butr sluggish , sure they arn't teh fastest player in teh field but shit they arn't sluggish you fanboy. if some oen could run a 40 in 3.1 seconds but stil gets beat by some one that can run it in 3.02 would you call the loser a slug ?? (for the record average athelete running time for a 40 meter dash is about 4.5 seconds)


if anything i'm an amd fanboy - 5600+ and 4850 over here.

I didn't call them slugs i called them slugish. THG have shown i7s do better at gaming especially when u stack up the gfx.
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September 29, 2009 9:27:03 AM

08nwsulaSo when will these things be given away?


I'll be updating the link to the contest today sometime in all three stories, then having the news team post a news piece letting everyone know that the contest is ready! Good luck!!
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September 29, 2009 9:40:52 AM

iv always liked intel , however i think these AMD systems are really kool. definatly adds some new stuff to the site and that 2500 machine was a beauty with all the eye candy. it's neat to see the value you get leaving extra money for all them graphics cards for gaming. Also i was realy impressed with that AMD processor there starting to make a nice comeback, and there grpahics cards are lookin sweet.
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September 29, 2009 9:49:05 AM

if i had $2500 i would definitely not buy an amd cpu! furthermore i wouldn't buy quad or triple crossfire if i had all the money in the world!
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September 29, 2009 11:47:18 AM

Great rigs, they all look and perform extraordinary!

Yet there are parts worth 640$ more in the performance build compared to the others (ssd's and bd-re) which doesn't affect gaming performance, at least not in the way measured on the article - The ssd's probably do but you did not include loading times, minimum fps etc.

Also the liquid cooling value is rather questionable, given that it only added few mhz compared to the ~40$ (100$ less) rosewill fort120 hsf. Did you try switching fan direction / making push/pull config on the water cooling? I guess it'll cool the cpu somewhat better and still be quite enough to keep the system out of the red zone.

I know that's nitpicking and you didn't mind value in your 2500$ rig, and I really appreciate all the efforts and thoughts put into these systems, but that's still rather unfair since (gaming) performance/value was one of the criterias, when the 2500$ system would actually perform the same as a ~1800$ one.
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September 29, 2009 11:52:50 AM

Forgot the ~80$ raid 1, also an unnecessary addition in the value chart. Well you get the point.

I didn't include the adapters / antec spotcool cuz that's roughly (and I'm being fair here) the same price as the dvd-rw's on the other systems.
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September 29, 2009 12:21:21 PM

Nice article but 4890 is GDDR5 not GDDR4
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September 29, 2009 12:32:33 PM

Although it would be WAY MORE DIFFICULT for Tom's, it would be interesting to set goals for certain games as to frame rates for certain settings and then see what the cheapest setup (cpu, graphics, memory, etc.)would be to achieve the various performance standards. This way, instead of being "open ended" where "faster is better", decide on acceptable frame rates then build to those frame rates. In this way the current battles of Intel vs. AMD and Nvidia vs. AMD/ATI would be better demonstrated, IMO.
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September 29, 2009 12:34:35 PM

No comparisons to last years SBMs?!!?
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September 29, 2009 1:22:35 PM

Cangelini! I HATE that Rhode Island is banned from your contests! I know our laws are horrible, but Jeez! LOL cut me a break!
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September 29, 2009 1:23:22 PM

oh man, im soo taking one of these rigs home with me =]
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September 29, 2009 1:31:42 PM

Great series of articles. Seems like the $800 range is really the sweeter spot when looking at the 650 and 1250 systems. Allows you to jump up to the PII X4 and step up the video cards a little bit as well. Would love to see a true "Max Value" build contest. A system that plays all] your test systems at 1680x1050 at chosen settings (maybe High without AA) minus Crysis of course and performs really well with productivity. I think a lot of us are in that category.
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September 29, 2009 1:41:48 PM

awaken688Great series of articles. Seems like the $800 range is really the sweeter spot when looking at the 650 and 1250 systems. Allows you to jump up to the PII X4 and step up the video cards a little bit as well. Would love to see a true "Max Value" build contest. A system that plays all] your test systems at 1680x1050 at chosen settings (maybe High without AA) minus Crysis of course and performs really well with productivity. I think a lot of us are in that category.

yah, $800 would probably be the best place between price/performance.

exceptional series, liked the AMD love =P
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September 29, 2009 1:52:08 PM

Seriously everyone whines and bitches about seeing AMD because they want Toms to be "fair" but in reality there isnt much reason to use AMD cpu's for a good comp build right now. Every one of these systems were held back by the cpu at one point or another during the benchmarking and its undeniable that the i'series from intel is the only way to go. Sure you can always throw out the price/value argument but when considering a x4/i5 there really isnt that big of price gap and when building a gaming rig you dont want to be overly miserly in the first place (if you have to be that penny pinching you shouldnt be building a gaming rig in the first place).

Now for graphics it AMD all the way. Better value, great performance (now all out superior performance), better sacaling, even work better with intel processors in most cases.

And you can call me a intel fanboy but its the farthest thing from the truth. I own tons of AMD stock (bought it in 07 when it was around $8 per share and have been hoping it will come back up). Im just a little disheartened that AMD has been out of the CPU game for so long. Phenom came around too late in the game and hasnt delivered the performance it should have. Come on AMD, release something great Ive been holding off on a new build for 3 years now cant wait too much longer!!!!!
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September 29, 2009 2:12:51 PM

Very minimal gains when you spend more than $1250 for a PC. But I think that realistically, who's gonna spend $2500 on a PC right now and have it be an AMD build? Tom's did a good job comparing these AMD builds but I don't see much benefits by going from $1250 to $2500.
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a b À AMD
September 29, 2009 2:25:13 PM

I liked this series of articles. It really looked at some different angles and made them interesting. Some of the people who are whinging now need to realize these builds are EXAMPLES, not RECOMMENDATIONS. You can do them, but whether or not you should depends on your circumstances. For myself, if I cannot comfortably afford an Intel i7 (on LGA1156) by January, I'll probably be quite happy with an AMD 955BE.
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September 29, 2009 2:49:43 PM

Good article, sadly the benches dosnt show the full diffrence between the riggs. SSD disk does help a lot to reduce framedrops, same does 8 gb of memory, so at least the min framrates are needed to get a good pic of the diffrenses, and well i guss this rigs was built b4 5870 arrived, becouse a high end gamingrig at that price shell contain 2 off them, then fit the other peaces accordinginly.

And i do hope that Toms will do an review with PHII vs i5/i7 with 2 5870 in both rigs, am courious what that will tell us.
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September 29, 2009 2:52:17 PM

But good builds all of them, presuming they was built before 5xxx graphic cards arrived.
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September 29, 2009 2:56:04 PM

My only concern with the value charts is with gaming resolution. If I was comparing a top end gaming machine I would not use the two lower resolutions to compare my average values. Say you are planning to game @ 1920x1200 very high details. The performance charts would look more like this, give or take some points since I grabbed the data from the charts and could be some errors.

Setting Res PC Total Perc
Very High 1920x1200 2500 OC 458 199%
Very High 1920x1200 2500 PC 825 359%
Very High 1920x1200 1250 OC 403 175%
Very High 1920x1200 1250 PC 371 161%
Very High 1920x1200 650 OC 256 111%
Very High 1920x1200 650 PC 230 100%

Maybe in the future you could show the gaming performance by resolution.

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September 29, 2009 3:21:00 PM

I love these systems, especially the 2500. I've been itching to see SSDs in action... it was a bit disappointing to not see it compared to any of the May machines. Can't wait to enter the contest.
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September 29, 2009 4:06:03 PM

batkersonAlthough it would be WAY MORE DIFFICULT for Tom's, it would be interesting to set goals for certain games as to frame rates for certain settings and then see what the cheapest setup (cpu, graphics, memory, etc.)would be to achieve the various performance standards. This way, instead of being "open ended" where "faster is better", decide on acceptable frame rates then build to those frame rates. In this way the current battles of Intel vs. AMD and Nvidia vs. AMD/ATI would be better demonstrated, IMO.


cool ideea.

One of the things that most ppl forget is that "real world" results are what we are really all about. It is all fine and dandy if an i7 is X times faster than phenomII in bungholio marks and has 20 frames more on a game... If I take both to a LAN and can stomp on a n00b at 60 frames from either on my synced LCD then I don't notice a diff and both are identical to me.

This is not saying one is not "better" than the other, just that in practice they are the same for me. (Assuming they both can hit that 60 frames synced on my LCD, depending on what res I need) Synthetic tests are good to measure raw performance (and simple FPS results are still synthetic even on a legit game) but that "real" perception is where you "see" what your $ has bought you. In that way, the top two systems here would blend in w/ any intel system with the same graphics.

...but I digress... Good article. lol.
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September 29, 2009 4:16:36 PM

Can anyone please tell me how the performance per dollar chart was made? I am a bit lost in the calculation
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a b À AMD
September 29, 2009 4:23:37 PM

Exactly, sojrner. The visible difference, if any, is what counts. There's no need to spend the money if you won't see a difference.
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September 29, 2009 4:24:52 PM

awaken688 Would love to see a true "Max Value" build contest. A system that plays all] your test systems at 1680x1050 at chosen settings (maybe High without AA) minus Crysis of course and performs really well with productivity. I think a lot of us are in that category.


Like that idea, except MAX value @ 1680x1050 with Ultra settings + aa/af and automatic fail (score = 0) under 30fps average. (ok, maybe lower settings for crysis)
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September 29, 2009 4:35:31 PM

Also on a MAX value contest, maybe for each fail you get a 50$ penalty.
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September 29, 2009 5:09:06 PM

If someone wanted to build a great system I suppose one could take the $2500 system as designed and adjust the price down

by replacing the SSDs, water cooling, RAID1 1TB drives, blue-ray, power supply, spot cooling, and 3rd video card replacing

them with more modest hardware. I imagine the gaming benches wouldn't be much lower, yet the value factor would be a LOT

higher.

Although maybe that 3rd video card would still be required which would also require a beefy power supply still. I guess

I'm not entirely sold yet on the performance gains of more than 2 video cards. Even so, getting rid of all the other

questionable fluff (although cool fluff!) could be an excellent compromise.

I really would also be interested in seeing the new i5 in a setup going against these. I'm sure that'll come soon enough,

though.

Also I'd love to see a few performance numbers from the $1250 and $2500 systems minus a video card or two. Depending on

those numbers I could finally be swayed to the idea of multi-GPU systems. Spending an extra couple hundred dollars for a

couple more FPS just doesn't sit well with me.

Regardless, thanks a ton for these articles!
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September 29, 2009 5:19:17 PM

i would of liked to see a dx11 board in the most expensive system. hopefully they will put one into the next build.
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September 29, 2009 6:03:17 PM

The only thing the 1250$ system needs is a pair of SSD's like the 2500$ pc if you want it to be a good gaming machine as well as boot up really fast. The winner shouldn't have any trouble buying them and adding it to it.

I'm a bit concerned with the OC. If the computers come to the "winners" with the OC settings preset, is it possible that if they have higher ambient air temperatures, their pc's will have problems and might lock up? If they are at the limit (where they were built) of stability, it's possible a 1-3 degree of ambient air temperature puts them over the top...
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September 29, 2009 6:22:49 PM

I think that for gaming today an all AMD build at about $800 is definately the sweet Spot. Here's what I'd do:

AMD Phenom II X3 720 $119 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
The X4 945 is better but current games get almost no benefit from a 4th core

Gigabyte AM3 Mobo $80 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
It might be worth it to go for a Mobo with 2 PCIe x16 slots for a possible crossfire setup later on

4GB DDR3 1333 Ram $73: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

ATi 5870 $380: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

500GB HDD $57: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
it might be better to go for 1TB of storage at an extra $25

Case, PSU and DVD drive will probably be $100-150



There we go , an ultimate AMD gaming rig for $800-900 depending on your options, And it can probably beat an i7 920 with a pair of GTX260s in most games.
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September 29, 2009 6:28:09 PM

4x4850s would require a 1000watt PSU at full load. I call bs on this article...
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September 29, 2009 6:30:43 PM

youssef 2010Can anyone please tell me how the performance per dollar chart was made? I am a bit lost in the calculation

sojrnercool ideea.One of the things that most ppl forget is that "real world" results are what we are really all about. It is all fine and dandy if an i7 is X times faster than phenomII in bungholio marks and has 20 frames more on a game... If I take both to a LAN and can stomp on a n00b at 60 frames from either on my synced LCD then I don't notice a diff and both are identical to me.This is not saying one is not "better" than the other, just that in practice they are the same for me.


Remember that an i7 + 1366 mobo has dropped in price enough to match a high end Phenom 2 setup. An i7 has the processor advantage, motherboard advantage, and ability to do Sli and Crossfire.

At this time, the i7 stomps the Phenom2 at the same price point.
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September 29, 2009 6:50:04 PM

I like these exotic and esoteric builds how about sometime in the future include a portable phase change (cryogenic) machine in a build.
Perhaps a $5,000 SBM machine.Or would that be too crazy.
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September 29, 2009 7:30:07 PM

I have had problems with my sli setup and I am concerned the frame rate benchmarks don't show real world playability of games. How stable are these 3 and 4 card configurations in the real world? I've seriously considered sticking to single card / single processor solutions.
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Anonymous
September 29, 2009 8:10:33 PM

Why wouldn't the low budget crowd buy a 30" monitor? The Hanns G 27.5" has been around $350 for six months, and as low as 275 during that stretch.

Isn't better to get a huge monitor with the 650 build instead of spending an extra 600 bux and staying with a 22"?
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September 29, 2009 9:28:20 PM

BlueScreenDeathRemember that an i7 + 1366 mobo has dropped in price enough to match a high end Phenom 2 setup. An i7 has the processor advantage, motherboard advantage, and ability to do Sli and Crossfire. At this time, the i7 stomps the Phenom2 at the same price point.

You are totally missing the point I made. I'm saying that in "real world" usage you won't notice a difference on games between either blue or green. Thus, your fanboi posturing is moot.

I do however remember reading in the 1250 system about the motherboard advantage... but, correct me if I'm wrong here... wasn't that advantage for the msi board used? Not a fan statement, just pointing out another fallacy in your argument.

:D 
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September 29, 2009 10:03:21 PM

Love these SBM articles. No matter what PCs I have at the time, I love to see what's possible within a given budget. Helps when friends ask me for recommendations.
awaken688Great series of articles. Seems like the $800 range is really the sweeter spot when looking at the 650 and 1250 systems.
These (excellent) SBM articles are great demonstrations/comparisons of what you could purchase for your money, but in the real world, users (read: enthusiasts who read this site) often carry over some components from their previous computers like the monitor, hdd or case, thus lowering costs. I think most of us love these articles to show us what we could purchase while we also calculate in our heads what we actually will buy instead.

I've been pricing two new gaming machines for myself and my lady so I'm quite familiar with what I can get right now for my money. For a gaming machine, I think $800-1000 is the sweet spot but that assumes a person is going to game at 1900x1200 or less and will also use their existing monitor. For gamers wanting strong framerates while playing at 2560x1600, $1000 is a small budget and something closer to $1,500 is more realistic.

liquidsnake718Now can we get a comparison between these SBM Ati/AMD setups vs an updated Intel/Nvidia SBM setups... For instance seeing the 3x4890 $2,500 build vs an i7 3xGTx285 build for the same price!
Lately, there have been several articles around the hardware community proving beyond a doubt that for some odd reason, Nvidia video cards are performing better on AMD systems than on Intel, meanwhile ATI vids are performing better on Intel instead of their own AMD cpus. It's very bizarre because there is NO way AMD/ATI can be happy with this as it diminishes the value of their own brand of cpus.

Also, your idea of comparing 3x GTX285 vs 3x Radeon 4890 isn't much of a comparison. Looking at Newegg prices, the Nvidia setup would cost a minimum (with rebates and no tax etc) of $900 on up to $1200 versus an those 3 Radeons that would lose on performance, but only cost $500 (again, w/ rebates) up to ~$700.
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September 29, 2009 10:45:01 PM

jtt283I liked this series of articles. It really looked at some different angles and made them interesting. Some of the people who are whinging now need to realize these builds are EXAMPLES, not RECOMMENDATIONS. You can do them, but whether or not you should depends on your circumstances. For myself, if I cannot comfortably afford an Intel i7 (on LGA1156) by January, I'll probably be quite happy with an AMD 955BE.


That's always the problem with putting one of these parts lists together: Every builder wants to put ALL the money into CPU and graphics to maximize benchmarks and WIN the comparison, but readers often need more hard drive capacity and better overall features. Those requests are accomodated by taking away from CPU and Graphics budgets.

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September 29, 2009 11:10:01 PM

inmyravWhy wouldn't the low budget crowd buy a 30" monitor? The Hanns G 27.5" has been around $350 for six months, and as low as 275 during that stretch. Isn't better to get a huge monitor with the 650 build instead of spending an extra 600 bux and staying with a 22"?


You can't compare a 27.5" display to a 30" since one has 1920x1200 resolution and the other 2560x1600. You'll pay around 3x as much for the 30"
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September 29, 2009 11:32:55 PM

Aye, too many people do not understand that jumping up to gaming at 2560x1600, unless you're cheap and buy suspect parts, requires a lot more cash. Better GPUs to get decent image quality and good framerates, a more powerful PSU to support the vid card(s), and of course the monitor cost. Plus that Hann's 27" monitor is fine for gaming, but not that great for people who do professional work and it has shown to be less than reliable for many users (a lot of the comments on newegg show failures after the first year). If all you do is game/surf/youtube then maybe that Hann 27" is worth the risk because it's so inexpensive and huge, but most people tend to use just 1 or 2 monitors and that 27" takes up a lot of space. I'd rather have a 24" with good parts and build-quality.

I also agree with Crashman/jtt283, the SBM articles focus on benchmarks but each individual's real-world use isn't the same. In my case, I really wanted to put an SSD into my new computer, but just couldn't justify the cost when there's barely room in my budget for new much-needed RAID backup drives. I'd need at least a 120GB SSD model for my system drive and right now they're just too pricey for my tastes so I'm sticking w/ my striped SATA raid array. Hopefully by next summer prices will drop enough I can fit an SSD into my budget.


cknobmanSeriously everyone whines and bitches about seeing AMD because they want Toms to be "fair" but in reality there isnt much reason to use AMD cpu's for a good comp build right now. Every one of these systems were held back by the cpu at one point or another during the benchmarking and its undeniable that the i'series from intel is the only way to go.


The focus of this SBM comparison was gaming systems, and because of that I think you're wrong about AMD. Currently, I'm building two new (mildly oc'd) systems for me and my lady to game on, I'll be using an i7 920 and she'll be sporting an i7 860. Since we weren't in a rush, we've had time to research these systems for about 6 months and were mainly waiting to see how things turned out w/ the P55 chipsets. Now that I've been able to compare p55 and x58 versus AMD I can safely say that for the same cost, AMD's gaming performance is absolutely equal to Intel's i7 offerings. The main reason we're going Intel are twofold:

1) We'll use our gamer boxes for video encoding and one as an HTPC for the living room. Intel is better at encoding and the i7 860 is a very cool chip for a (quiet) HTPC. We considered an i5 750, but I didn't wanna give up the performance and HT.

2) Price. We live in LA and can drive to a Microcenter. It's a bit of a drive, but we'll save $140 (plus tax) on the two Intel cpus versus buying them at Newegg, Mwave etc. If we couldn't get the i7 920 for $200 and the 860 for $230, then an AMD 955 BE is only $190 from several nearby retailers as well as newegg and would almost for sure have been our cpu of choice, even if we didn't overclock. For gaming at 1900x1200, the Phenom 940/955 and 945 are an outstanding value and will keep from hitting CPU bottlenecks just as well as the i7 920 that I'll be overclocking.

If we didn't have the ability to buy our two Intel i7 cpus for the (relatively) bargain price of ~$468 out the door, then two Phenom X4 955s for ~$415 was going to be pretty impossible to beat, at least for my money. YMMV

maniac5999I think that for gaming today an all AMD build at about $800 is definately the sweet Spot. Here's what I'd do:AMD Phenom II X3 720 $119 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6819103649The X4 945 is better but current games get almost no benefit from a 4th core

True that most games don't need more than two cores, but a few do use 3 or even 4 cores and if you're building a new system right now, depending on how frequently you upgrade, it might be wise to go for 4 cores. Unless I planned on upgrading my cpu sometime between now and, say, summer or at worst Xmas of 2010, I'd go for the Phenom 940/955. That said, the X3 720 is an excellent cpu for ~$120.
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September 29, 2009 11:34:30 PM

orion76I have had problems with my sli setup and I am concerned the frame rate benchmarks don't show real world playability of games. How stable are these 3 and 4 card configurations in the real world? I've seriously considered sticking to single card / single processor solutions.


I can say that I played with the QuadFire $1250 machine and I didn't experience any problems playing a few levels through our benchmark games and even a couple more.
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a b À AMD
September 29, 2009 11:35:59 PM

Crashman...readers often need more hard drive capacity and better overall features. Those requests are accomodated by taking away from CPU and Graphics budgets.


No argument from me on that one.
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