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Drop outs from mulitpath at 20 miles

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Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:35:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.

NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
roof top antenna 10FT above his house.

Bob Miller

From AVSForum
Alexvd (today)

CBS still has dropouts

Hello,

I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
two story house, with lots of trees around.

CBS is driving me nuts.

I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.

Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV
1080.

The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor.
That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of
my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try
this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.

How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal
quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.

Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
the roof but it is still working quite well.

Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is the
channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
channel scan but it does not fix it.

POST #4701 | Report this post to a
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> [a bunch of junk]


Please stop posting AVSForum content here. If we wanted to read that,
we'd go over to AVSForum. Mmmkay?
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.

Do you have any idea how pathetic it is to cherry pick posts from a
different forum in a vain attempt to bolster your asinine claims?

No? I didn't think so.

> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
> Bob Miller
>
> From AVSForum
> Alexvd (today)
>
> CBS still has dropouts
>
> Hello,
>
> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
> two story house, with lots of trees around.
>
> CBS is driving me nuts.
>
> I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
> indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.
>
> Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
> went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
> Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
> much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV
> 1080.
>
> The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
> around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
> now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
> used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor.
> That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of
> my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try
> this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.
>
> How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
> tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal
> quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.
>
> Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
> Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
> runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
> easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
> the roof but it is still working quite well.
>
> Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
> work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
> full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is the
> channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
> channel scan but it does not fix it.
>
> POST #4701 | Report this post to a

Matthew
--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
Related resources
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 12:35:47 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Booby...... We all know your unemployed, give it a brake, and if we like we
can read AVS ourselves. You need to take care of your family, if you have
one? In any event you need a life really badly, maybe you can find a real
job with VoOM???


Fear can hold you prisoner
Hope can set you free

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:SUoXd.4831$cN6.2943@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>
> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
> Bob Miller
>
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:06:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 21:35:46 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>

I'm glad you are not a Jesus freak.


>NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
>roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
>Bob Miller
>
> From AVSForum
>Alexvd (today)
>
>CBS still has dropouts
>
>Hello,
>
>I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
>two story house, with lots of trees around.
>
>CBS is driving me nuts.
>
>I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
>indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.
>
>Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
>went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
>Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
>much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV
>1080.
>
>The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
>around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
>now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
>used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor.
>That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of
>my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try
>this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.
>
>How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
>tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal
>quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.
>
>Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
>Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
>runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
>easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
>the roof but it is still working quite well.
>
>Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
>work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
>full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is the
>channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
>channel scan but it does not fix it.
>
>POST #4701 | Report this post to a
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:12:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in news:SUoXd.4831$cN6.2943
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>
> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
> Bob Miller
>
> From AVSForum
> Alexvd (today)
>
> CBS still has dropouts
>
> Hello,
>
> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
> two story house, with lots of trees around.
>
> CBS is driving me nuts.
>
> I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
> indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.
>
> Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
> went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
> Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
> much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV
> 1080.
>
> The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
> around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
> now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
> used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor.
> That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of
> my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try
> this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.
>
> How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
> tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the
signal
> quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.
>
> Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
> Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
> runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
> easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
> the roof but it is still working quite well.
>
> Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
> work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
> full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is
the
> channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
> channel scan but it does not fix it.
>
> POST #4701 | Report this post to a

To be blunt, UHF is line of sight and this sounds like he has no direct
path to the CBS transmitting antenna (or he is aimed so far off it as to
not be receiving any direct signal to speak of).

TV, whether digital or analogue is still radio and all the things in the
radio antenna handbooks still apply.

The NJN problem sounds like it's something the broadcaster is doing.

--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:12:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Dave Oldridge wrote:

> To be blunt, UHF is line of sight
This is absolutely false.

UHF is far, far beyond line of sight. All my Fox stations
are not line of sight, and all are 100% reliable with
an antenna pointing at them.

One is 27 miles away and behind a hill a mile away,
needing an antenna about 35 feet high (mine is 23) to
be LOS.

One is about 63 miles away with about 35 miles of
dirt in the way and needs an antenna height of 225 feet at my
house to be LOS.

The third is 68 miles away and also has
35 miles of dirt in the way and needs a 138 foot antenna at my house to
be LOS.. This latter one has a calculated and measured typical standard
path loss of over 175 dB.

All DTVs work fine at those distances. The corresponding
analogs are too snowy to be watchable, at least most of the time,
except the closest one, which suffers a moderately bad ghost at
5 microseconds.

Doug McDonald
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 6:12:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist, that it can be caused
by a car going by and that having a house 20 ft tall with a 10 ft
antenna on it will NOT SAVE you from that multipath.

To have a working DTV transition in the US we need reliable plug and
play receivers that work with simple indoor antennas and that cost less
than $100.

Bob Miller

PS: And my message was repeated seven times so far. Not bad



Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>
>
> Do you have any idea how pathetic it is to cherry pick posts from a
> different forum in a vain attempt to bolster your asinine claims?
>
> No? I didn't think so.
>
>> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
>> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>>
>> Bob Miller
>>
>> From AVSForum
>> Alexvd (today)
>>
>> CBS still has dropouts
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have
>> a two story house, with lots of trees around.
>>
>> CBS is driving me nuts.
>>
>> I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
>> indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.
>>
>> Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
>> went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
>> Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
>> much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith
>> DTV 1080.
>>
>> The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
>> around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
>> now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
>> used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first
>> floor. That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the
>> roof of my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice.
>> Dont try this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.
>>
>> How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
>> tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the
>> signal quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.
>>
>> Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
>> Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
>> runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
>> easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
>> the roof but it is still working quite well.
>>
>> Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
>> work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
>> full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is
>> the channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
>> channel scan but it does not fix it.
>>
>> POST #4701 | Report this post to a
>
>
> Matthew
March 9, 2005 8:39:09 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:

>To have a working DTV transition in the US we need reliable plug and
>play receivers that work with simple indoor antennas and that cost less
>than $100.


You still don't understand that the signal indoors is diffracted
through the openings in the building. It is also reflected by objects
and people inside the building. These reflections can cause total
cancellation of the signal (we're not talking about multipath here).

Indoor antennas for TV are a matter of luck. Sometimes they work,
more often they don't.

TV receivers that work with simple indoor antennas aren't going to
happen. The physics doesn't care if it is COFDM, 8VSB, or NTSC ---
when the signal doesn't get to the antenna, it doesn't work.


>PS: And my message was repeated seven times so far. Not bad

Repeating it doesn't make it so.

Alan
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:34:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Alan wrote:
> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>
>>To have a working DTV transition in the US we need reliable plug and play receivers that work with simple indoor antennas and that cost less
>>than $100.
>
>
>
> You still don't understand that the signal indoors is diffracted through the openings in the building. It is also reflected by objects
> and people inside the building. These reflections can cause total cancellation of the signal (we're not talking about multipath here).

I do understand and have tested COFDM receivers in buildings of many
kinds with simple antennas and COFDM works with simple antennas in
buildings very well. Others have also tried and are going forward with
broadcasting of DTV signals to very simple antennas on cell phones and
they will work. I am also testing a 5th gen receiver with LG chip and
even it works pretty well indoors with a simple antenna.

In fact it works so well that we probably will use it. 8-VSB has lots of
problems and has had no end of excuses why it would not work when the
truth is that it was a poorly designed modulation and on top of that the
receiver manufacturers who made receivers for it did a half a***d job.
The smart ones stayed far away.

That is why you have so few 8-VSB receivers being made and less sold
with no advertising and few retail outlets that put them in their front
windows let alone on their shelves. We have half the number of receiver
models that OZ has with only 1/14 th our population with few of them
actually on store shelves while in OZ their COFDM receivers are well
advertised and in good supply at retail outlets. In the UK they have
four times the number of COFDM receivers as we had 8-VSB receivers sell
millions of them.

I still do understand that you can have nulls caused by signals
canceling each other out but that is not the problem with indoor
reception with simple antennas since if there is a null there is a
signal receivable near by and the antenna can be moved. That alone will
solve most reception problems in a fixed home environment. In a mobile
environment diversity receivers are a good solution.

>
> Indoor antennas for TV are a matter of luck. Sometimes they work, more often they don't.
>
> TV receivers that work with simple indoor antennas aren't going to happen. The physics doesn't care if it is COFDM, 8VSB, or NTSC ---
> when the signal doesn't get to the antenna, it doesn't work.
>
In a big stick 8-VSB environment there will be outlaying areas where
simple indoor antennas will not work but with 5th gen LG receivers a
high percentage of fixed locations will work indoors with simple antennas.
>
>
>>PS: And my message was repeated seven times so far. Not bad
>
>
> Repeating it doesn't make it so.

I don't repeat it.

The repeating was by my friends who frail at my post and in doing so
point at my post over and over again. What more can I ask for. They are
so helpful.

Our friend Alexvd from AVSForum makes it so. He either is telling the
truth or not. He says that cars going by his home cause drop-outs so bad
he cannot watch CBS even though he has a rooftop antenna and that indoor
reception doesn't work at his location only 20 miles from the
broadcaster. I guarantee that COFDM will work at his location indoor
with a simple omni antenna. And I think that a 5th gen LG receiver will
work indoors at his location with a simple loop antenna.

Bob Miller
>
> Alan
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 9:49:00 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:SUoXd.4831$cN6.2943@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>
> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
> Bob Miller
>
> From AVSForum
> Alexvd (today)
>
> CBS still has dropouts
>
> Hello,
>
> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
> two story house, with lots of trees around.
>
> CBS is driving me nuts.
>
> I finally put up a CM 4228. For a longtime I was using a Silver Sensor
> indoors and it was dropping out like crazy.
>
> Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would have
> went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all runs via
> Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All channels are now
> much more stable and have 70% or better signal strenth on my Zenith DTV
> 1080.
>
> The only thing is that CBS still drops out. The signal bar jumps all
> around when cars go by my house. Its the only channel that does this
> now. Every other channel is fine and does not fluctuate. This behavior
> used to happen when I had the silver sensor indoors on the first floor.
> That is what forced me to put the antenna on a 10ft mast on the roof of
> my house. Installed it in December with lots of snow and ice. Dont try
> this at home kids. My brother almost fell of the roof.
>
> How could cars still be affecting the signal that high up. I have not
> tweaked the antenna with my compass to see if I could improve the signal
> quality. However it is driving me nuts and I need to fix this.
>
> Is this multipath. Could it be fixed by aligning the antenna better.
> Should I bother with getting a Titan amplifier. Seems like a waste. My
> runs are around a 100ft but the radio shack antenna seemed to fix that
> easily. I dont have the radio shack antenna closest to the antenna on
> the roof but it is still working quite well.
>
> Also wtf is up with NJN. I get NJN on 58-1,58-5. All the subchannels
> work except the 58-5. It worked at one point and now no longer. I get
> full signal strength but no HDTV. This really stinks because that is the
> channel with Smart Travels. My wife and I love this show. I did a
> channel scan but it does not fix it.
>
> POST #4701 | Report this post to a

The signal could be marginal due to external noise like FM or multipath.
Try putting another FM filter in line before the amp or better yet since you
are using a UHF only antenna put a uhf/vhf splitter with the input from the
antenna and the UHF output to the amp with a terminator on the vhf
connection. This gets rid of VHF noise and FM that might be loading the amp
down. I found that my gain increased 100% and my noise level dropped 8 db
when I did this.

The FM trap in the antenna amps don't cut out FM enough for some locations.
UHF/VHF splitters trap out FM better than a FM trap as FM is further into
the rejection area.

FM can cause the amp to modulate incoming signal and with a third generation
ATSC tuner cause slow channel change, remapping issues and dropouts of
marginal channels. These problems don't show up on a 4th gen tuner but
excessive noise (FM and other ) cause dropouts when conditions become
marginal.
March 9, 2005 11:10:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote
>snip
[recapping 6 years of continuous lies...]

I wonder why poor bob even bothers to cherry-pick complaints like this, when
he can just as
easily push his daughter aside and just use her internet account to make
fake postings.

As he himself admitted to doing before at AVS.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 11:16:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Not cherry picking, I was very specific.

Cue definition of "cherry picking"

You really are a moron, bob.

Matthew
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 1:23:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

LOL
Ya mean like Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush............ ;-)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:

>
>>
>
> Do you have any idea how pathetic it is to cherry pick posts from a
> different forum in a vain attempt to bolster your asinine claims?
>
>
>
>>

--
Ric Seyler
March 9, 2005 4:10:03 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:


> Its connected to a Radio Shack amp. (I think it is 1571) I would
> have went with a titan but I didnt think I would need it. This all
> runs via Rg6 quad shield with Paladin Sealtite connectors. All
> channels are now much more stable and have 70% or better signal
> strenth on my Zenith DTV 1080.


Solution:
This early adopter should remove the noisy rat shack cable amp and
replace the 1st-gen 8VSB receiver.

New 8VSB receivers are not plagued by multipath problems. I've *seen*
the dramatic reception difference in new vs old receivers, and it is
amazing.

eBay the old equipment, and upgrade costs are minimal.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 5:44:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>
> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>
> Bob Miller
>
> From AVSForum
> Alexvd (today)
>
> CBS still has dropouts
>
> Hello,
>
> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
> two story house, with lots of trees around.
>
> CBS is driving me nuts.
>

Twenty miles under normal terrain conditions is no big deal; but in
mountainous areas, reception may vary widely. The terrain in
Mountainside may make digital reception difficult; signal levels may be
weak. Also he may be having problems with the antenna system; the
antenna pre-amp he is using may make reception worse then no pre-amp. I
wouldn't make any assumptions about COFDM or any other modulation method
with unknown location parameters. To really find out what the problems
are, you need to visit his house (he's about 24 line of sight miles
away), take a spectrum analyzer, bring the 5th gen receiver to compare
against ;) .
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 5:44:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

numeric wrote:
>
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>>
>> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
>> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>>
>> Bob Miller
>>
>> From AVSForum
>> Alexvd (today)
>>
>> CBS still has dropouts
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have
>> a two story house, with lots of trees around.
>>
>> CBS is driving me nuts.
>>
>
> Twenty miles under normal terrain conditions is no big deal; but in
> mountainous areas, reception may vary widely. The terrain in
> Mountainside may make digital reception difficult; signal levels may be
> weak. Also he may be having problems with the antenna system; the
> antenna pre-amp he is using may make reception worse then no pre-amp.

> I
> wouldn't make any assumptions about COFDM or any other modulation method
> with unknown location parameters.

Really? That's all bob does.

> To really find out what the problems
> are, you need to visit his house (he's about 24 line of sight miles
> away), take a spectrum analyzer, bring the 5th gen receiver to compare
> against ;) .
>

Right. Of course information is the last thing bob needs before he
decrees that it is the fault of the 8-VSB boogie man.

Matthew
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 5:44:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 14:44:12 GMT, numeric <numeric@att.net> wrote:

>
>
>Bob Miller wrote:
>> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>>
>> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
>> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>>
>> Bob Miller
>>
>> From AVSForum
>> Alexvd (today)
>>
>> CBS still has dropouts
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have a
>> two story house, with lots of trees around.
>>
>> CBS is driving me nuts.

The AVSforum poster is also complaining about WNJN.. ~45 degrees
off axis from the NY stations. So it's likely that he has his
antenna pointed somewhere in between those two locations.

WCBS is transmitting Digital on channel 56.
That high band significantly shrinks the gain profile of CM 4228..
Enough that an off axis antenna might place WCBS right in a -25dB
NULL node. see

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html

>Twenty miles under normal terrain conditions is no big deal; but in
>mountainous areas, reception may vary widely. The terrain in
>Mountainside may make digital reception difficult; signal levels may be
>weak. Also he may be having problems with the antenna system; the
>antenna pre-amp he is using may make reception worse then no pre-amp. I
>wouldn't make any assumptions about COFDM or any other modulation method
>with unknown location parameters. To really find out what the problems
>are, you need to visit his house (he's about 24 line of sight miles
>away), take a spectrum analyzer, bring the 5th gen receiver to compare
>against ;) .

The original AVS poster is also using an ancient, (Designed 5 to 6
years ago, Zenith DTV 1080), HDTV receiver.

All the comments in this thread are fairly useless since, the AVS
forum poster has probably NO IDEA that BOB copied his post to this
usenet group.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:54:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in news:D 0ldoc$62s$1
@news.ks.uiuc.edu:

> Dave Oldridge wrote:
>
>> To be blunt, UHF is line of sight
> This is absolutely false.
>
> UHF is far, far beyond line of sight. All my Fox stations
> are not line of sight, and all are 100% reliable with
> an antenna pointing at them.

Not compared with VHF and not even close to HF ionospheric propagation.

> One is 27 miles away and behind a hill a mile away,
> needing an antenna about 35 feet high (mine is 23) to
> be LOS.

Are you saying this station has only a 131ft. tower? Or is the hill part
of your calculation?

You will get a certain amount of knife-edge effect over hills and such.
But vegetation absorbs it quite handily (and variably depending on
weather). Not only that, 27 miles is quite an easy hop for a reflected
dog-leg.

> One is about 63 miles away with about 35 miles of
> dirt in the way and needs an antenna height of 225 feet at my
> house to be LOS.

871 feet above ground level seems more representative of TV towers
generally.

Are you considering the height of the antenna at both ends of the path?
Most TV transmitting antennas are fairly high (a lot of them around here
are on mountains at elevations ranging from 2000 to 6000 feet). I've
seen the path loss curves for terrestrial propagation. They are much
sharper at UHF than they are at, say Channel 7 VHF. That's not to say
there isn't ANY signal at over-the-horizon distances, just that it's rare
to actually get enough for digital data recovery. High transmitter
power, high receive antenna gain and good receive preamps can boost that
distance, all other things being equal, but the path losses are still
quite sharp, fading much faster than VHF signals do. VHF signals exhibit
a kind of "step" effect. If you get enough signal to cover about 110
miles, there will be almost no additional loss out to around 250. This
"step" is still present at UHF, but has a slope to it, so that additional
losses mount rather more rapidly.

> The third is 68 miles away and also has
> 35 miles of dirt in the way and needs a 138 foot antenna at my house to
> be LOS.. This latter one has a calculated and measured typical standard
> path loss of over 175 dB.

OK, so you must be working with a pretty good preamp.

> All DTVs work fine at those distances. The corresponding
> analogs are too snowy to be watchable, at least most of the time,
> except the closest one, which suffers a moderately bad ghost at
> 5 microseconds.

It is still a bit early in the game for me to experiment around here yet.
The proposed stations in Vancouver BC 65 miles are not on the air and
Seattle is just a bit too far (250 miles) to expect much.

Analogue VHF is terrible here. The only station I get with any useable
signal on rabbit ears is Channel 14, the French CBC outlet in Vancouver,
which is UHF and still quite snowy here. The rest are both too snowy and
too ghosted to be of any use, so I don't hold out much hope for digital
signals at lower power from the same towers. Maybe an outdoor antenna on
the balcony would help, but I'm not putting out any money until I know
that at least someone in this area has some digital OTA reception. In
the meantime, my satellite reception is solid.

On the plus side, the Vancouver stations will occupy a very small arc on
the horizon from here and I may be able to use a fairly narrow beam
antenna to bring them all in (thinking yagi with around 12-15dbd gain).


--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:54:25 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Dave Oldridge wrote:

>
>
>>One is 27 miles away and behind a hill a mile away,
>>needing an antenna about 35 feet high (mine is 23) to
>>be LOS.
>
>
> Are you saying this station has only a 131ft. tower? Or is the hill part
> of your calculation?


No, I am saying that if **I** had a 131 foot tower, it would
be high enough that it would be line of sight.

>
> You will get a certain amount of knife-edge effect over hills and such.
> But vegetation absorbs it quite handily (and variably depending on
> weather). Not only that, 27 miles is quite an easy hop for a reflected
> dog-leg.
>
>
>>One is about 63 miles away with about 35 miles of
>>dirt in the way and needs an antenna height of 225 feet at my
>>house to be LOS.
>
>
> 871 feet above ground level seems more representative of TV towers
> generally.
>

What I am saying is that my computer program for this sort
of stuff says that uing a standard refraction model
in the case in the above sentence an antenna **at my house**
225 feet above groung level would cause it to be line of sight,
including refraction.






> Are you considering the height of the antenna at both ends of the path?

Of course.


>>The third is 68 miles away and also has
>>35 miles of dirt in the way and needs a 138 foot antenna at my house to
>>be LOS.. This latter one has a calculated and measured typical standard
>>path loss of over 175 dB.
>
>
> OK, so you must be working with a pretty good preamp.

Yes, but most of the time a standard one with a 5 dB NF
will work fine. Occasionally the super duper GaAs one is in
fact actually needed.

>
> On the plus side, the Vancouver stations will occupy a very small arc on
> the horizon from here and I may be able to use a fairly narrow beam
> antenna to bring them all in (thinking yagi with around 12-15dbd gain).

Yes, you may need that. I need a good Yagi for my hardest
station. Strangely the next hardest one needs only a Radio Shack
dual-bowtie (but remember that I have it at 25 feet above the ground).

I should add that these are not low power stations ... the closest
and farthest ones are about 300 kW and the middle one is 1 MW. (ERP,
average power).

Doug McDonald
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:55:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

numeric wrote:
>
>
> Bob Miller wrote:
>
>> Why is this guy complaining. This is excellent reception around here.
>>
>> NO indoor reception at 20 miles and drop outs from passing cars with a
>> roof top antenna 10FT above his house.
>>
>> Bob Miller
>>
>> From AVSForum
>> Alexvd (today)
>>
>> CBS still has dropouts
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I now live in Mountainside, NJ about 20mi outside of the city. I have
>> a two story house, with lots of trees around.
>>
>> CBS is driving me nuts.
>>
>
> Twenty miles under normal terrain conditions is no big deal; but in
> mountainous areas, reception may vary widely. The terrain in
> Mountainside may make digital reception difficult; signal levels may be
> weak. Also he may be having problems with the antenna system; the
> antenna pre-amp he is using may make reception worse then no pre-amp. I
> wouldn't make any assumptions about COFDM or any other modulation method
> with unknown location parameters. To really find out what the problems
> are, you need to visit his house (he's about 24 line of sight miles
> away), take a spectrum analyzer, bring the 5th gen receiver to compare
> against ;) .
>
Remember that if this is a bad reception area, doesn't sound like it to
me since he gets other stations, COFDM would be able to fill in with on
channel repeaters or the network could have been (would have been) an
SFN to begin with.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 7:55:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Boobster...... You can rant all you like, copy from AVS, what ever, when did
you last WORK and get paid for it? It's time to get a real job, booby!


Fear can hold you prisoner
Hope can set you free

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:iUFXd.5487$cN6.3278@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 10:58:47 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that
at
> any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this

> case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist, that it can be
caused
> by a car going by and that having a house 20 ft tall with a 10 ft
> antenna on it will NOT SAVE you from that multipath.

Are you as 'worried' with those folks that are getting rock-solid 8VSB
reception from 35 miles and more out from the transmitter? No? I didn't
think so. BOOBSTER, you're always so fair and balanced....NOT.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 11:07:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> That is why you have so few 8-VSB receivers being made and less sold
> with no advertising and few retail outlets that put them in their
front
> windows let alone on their shelves.

How is it that this IDIOT can post this same bullshit day after day
after day? It's times like this that I really wish this ng were
moderated. Just as with AVS, the BOOBSTER would be terminal as the
result of his chronic lying and misleading statements. Once again you
deceiving BOOBSTER, there is no market for 8VSB STAND ALONE RECEIVERS
since most people use the INTEGRATED (BOB, that means they're built
into the satellite receiver) unit in their satellite receiver. But hey,
I know for a fact you will ignore this and every other post that points
out your deception and post the same bullshit tomorrow or the next day.
Then we'll hear about Mark Schubin's apartment and after that we'll
take another delightful stroll through the Hearing room back in
Washington. A few days later we'll be back to "why aren't there any
8VSB receivers sold or advertised". We go through this full-circle
litany of lies, distortions and embellishments from you day after day
after day. You are an idiot of unparralleled proportions. Having met
many people in many walks of life BOB, you have set a new benchmark for
lunacy. Congratulations. You are truly one very sick puppy.
Anonymous
March 9, 2005 11:13:48 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> Remember that if this is a bad reception area, doesn't sound like it
to
> me since he gets other stations, COFDM would be able to fill in with
on
> channel repeaters or the network could have been (would have been) an

> SFN to begin with.

Sure BOOBSTER, with a COFDM system for OTA HD, we'd need 10s of
thousands of your wonderful repeaters all over the place in every city.
Maybe we could put one on every streetlight in America. That WOULD
work!!! Oh, and we know how great those COFDM repeaters are via XM
radio. Great stuff BOOBY, it got me back to FM quicker than anything
else could have.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 2:30:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Doug McDonald <mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu> wrote in
news:D 0nh7i$op5$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu:

> Dave Oldridge wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>>One is 27 miles away and behind a hill a mile away,
>>>needing an antenna about 35 feet high (mine is 23) to
>>>be LOS.
>>
>>
>> Are you saying this station has only a 131ft. tower? Or is the hill
>> part of your calculation?
>
>
> No, I am saying that if **I** had a 131 foot tower, it would
> be high enough that it would be line of sight.

I calculated the transmitting tower height from your figures.

>> You will get a certain amount of knife-edge effect over hills and
>> such. But vegetation absorbs it quite handily (and variably
>> depending on weather). Not only that, 27 miles is quite an easy hop
>> for a reflected dog-leg.


>>>One is about 63 miles away with about 35 miles of
>>>dirt in the way and needs an antenna height of 225 feet at my
>>>house to be LOS.
>>
>>
>> 871 feet above ground level seems more representative of TV towers
>> generally.
>>
>
> What I am saying is that my computer program for this sort
> of stuff says that uing a standard refraction model
> in the case in the above sentence an antenna **at my house**
> 225 feet above groung level would cause it to be line of sight,
> including refraction.

Yes, but again, your figure implies that the transmitting tower is 871
feet.

>> Are you considering the height of the antenna at both ends of the
>> path?
>
> Of course.

>>>The third is 68 miles away and also has
>>>35 miles of dirt in the way and needs a 138 foot antenna at my house
>>>to be LOS.. This latter one has a calculated and measured typical
>>>standard path loss of over 175 dB.
>>
>>
>> OK, so you must be working with a pretty good preamp.
>
> Yes, but most of the time a standard one with a 5 dB NF
> will work fine. Occasionally the super duper GaAs one is in
> fact actually needed.

I do quite a bit of FM work near 450mhz and I find that 40 miles is about
normal for a repeater with a tower in the 100 feet above ground range. I
can often hear more than I can be heard because I use a GaAs FET preamp
both there and on 144Mhz. Of course if there is any kind of temperature
inversion, it will probably affect UHF more strongly than VHF. At times,
on the east coast, I used to hear signals from hundreds of miles away.

>> On the plus side, the Vancouver stations will occupy a very small arc
>> on the horizon from here and I may be able to use a fairly narrow
>> beam antenna to bring them all in (thinking yagi with around 12-15dbd
>> gain).

> Yes, you may need that. I need a good Yagi for my hardest
> station. Strangely the next hardest one needs only a Radio Shack
> dual-bowtie (but remember that I have it at 25 feet above the ground).

> I should add that these are not low power stations ... the closest
> and farthest ones are about 300 kW and the middle one is 1 MW. (ERP,
> average power).

The problem here is that they are proposing to broadcast in the sub-KW
power range, which means the signals will be really weak unless they are
direct-wave.


--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667

A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 2:30:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Dave Oldridge wrote:

>>>871 feet above ground level seems more representative of TV towers
>>>generally.
>>>
>>
>>What I am saying is that my computer program for this sort
>>of stuff says that uing a standard refraction model
>>in the case in the above sentence an antenna **at my house**
>>225 feet above groung level would cause it to be line of sight,
>>including refraction.
>
>
> Yes, but again, your figure implies that the transmitting tower is 871
> feet.
>

Well, actually it is about 980 feet above ground level.

>
> The problem here is that they are proposing to broadcast in the sub-KW
> power range, which means the signals will be really weak unless they are
> direct-wave.
>
>

Yes, that is true. For these long distances you really do need the
big guns transmitters.

Doug McDonald
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 7:24:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
> any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
> case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>
Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!

The key to COFDM or 8VSB is that neither are going to be perfect,
and in the case where CATV isn't the obviously best choice, 8VSB
is likely to do as well as or better than COFDM. In the cases
where CATV is the best choice by far, COFDM might sometimes be better than
8VSB, but who cares? any sane person would be using CATV over and
above either COFDM or 8VSB.

Bogus and biased claims like yours (and admittedly, the accurate,
but spin laden claims that I have made above) aren't helpful to
decide between 8VSB or COFDM for home HDTV use... Do you know why,
Bob? It is because 8VSB is the standard, free, OTA HDTV delivery
mechanism in the USA!!! :-).

>
> that it can be caused
> by a car going by
>
that it (COFDM signal loss) is easily caused by numerous appliances in
the house, in very
close proximity to any indoor antenna used for COFDM reception.

Of course, that is likely a major reason why the BBC suggests
the use of outdoor antennas with COFDM.

Bob, why don't you just admit that both COFDM and 8VSB don't provide
perfect reception? Why don't you just admit that 8VSB is the standard,
free, OTA broadcast distribution mechanism for HDTV in the USA?

John
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 4:34:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

John S. Dyson wrote:
> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>
>
> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!

How insanely out of touch with reality. The exact opposite is true in
the real world. In the UK they have an average of ONE kW per transmitter
that is 1000 WATTS and they sold SIX million receivers that have an
average cost of under $70 last year. Somebody likes the reception that
is being offered by these EXTREMELY LOW POWERED COFDM TRANSMITTERS.

In the US where we have virtually zero sales of OTA receivers except by
MANDATE and 1,000,000 WATT transmitters, 1000 times more powerful than
the average in the UK and where the lowest cost receiver is $200 we have
a stagnate transition.

So the tables are exactly turned from what you suggest. IN ALL countries
using COFDM the power levels used by broadcasters are SMALL fractions of
what 8-VSB uses in the US. And even then you can't receive a signal as
little as eight blocks from a MEGAWATT transmitter in Manhattan.
>
> The key to COFDM or 8VSB is that neither are going to be perfect, and in the case where CATV isn't the obviously best choice, 8VSB
> is likely to do as well as or better than COFDM. In the cases where CATV is the best choice by far, COFDM might sometimes be better than
> 8VSB, but who cares? any sane person would be using CATV over and above either COFDM or 8VSB.
>
> Bogus and biased claims like yours (and admittedly, the accurate, but spin laden claims that I have made above) aren't helpful to
> decide between 8VSB or COFDM for home HDTV use... Do you know why, Bob? It is because 8VSB is the standard, free, OTA HDTV delivery
> mechanism in the USA!!! :-).

Not for long. I don't think the US public will stand for it once the
reality of what is happening in other countries starts making the
mainstream press. It will be particularly galling once the French and
Chinese pass us by with their OTA HDTV. I would say the 2008 Olympics
will be a humbling experience for American visitors there.
>
>>that it can be caused by a car going by
>>
>
> that it (COFDM signal loss) is easily caused by numerous appliances in the house, in very close proximity to any indoor antenna used for COFDM reception.

I think the testimony from real world users in OZ on here puts that to rest.
>
> Of course, that is likely a major reason why the BBC suggests the use of outdoor antennas with COFDM.

No the main reason is to cover their a** since as most readers here no
all such entities must cover all possibilities with overly broad
conservative statements. And there is the small matter of only being
able to use ONE kW transmitters because of ongoing analog broadcasting.

Bob Miller
>
> Bob, why don't you just admit that both COFDM and 8VSB don't provide perfect reception? Why don't you just admit that 8VSB is the standard,
> free, OTA broadcast distribution mechanism for HDTV in the USA?

> John
>
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 10:27:46 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:34:22 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>John S. Dyson wrote:
>> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>
>>
>> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>
>How insanely out of touch with reality. The exact opposite is true in
>the real world. In the UK they have an average of ONE kW per transmitter
>that is 1000 WATTS and they sold SIX million receivers that have an
>average cost of under $70 last year. Somebody likes the reception that
>is being offered by these EXTREMELY LOW POWERED COFDM TRANSMITTERS.

Another lie booby.. When will you ever learn..

.... a quick average of BBC based DTV xmiters in UK.. yields an
average of

3.37 Kw per tansmitter.. see

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/tv_transmitters/tv_digit...

If I remove the tramitters under 250 watts.. (Dinky repeaters don't
count for much).. The averange jumps to 5.2 kw per transmitter..

Additionally.. suming up the transmitter power per channel yeilds

An average 275 Kw per channel to deliver limited COFDM service from
~85 antenna towers.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 1:13:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> John S. Dyson wrote:
>> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>
>>
>> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>
> How insanely out of touch with reality.
>
Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).

Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.

John
March 11, 2005 2:40:19 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
> In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> > John S. Dyson wrote:
> >> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> >>
> >>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
> >>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
> >>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
> >>>
> >>
> >> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
> >> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
> >> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
> >> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
> >> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
> >> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
> >> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
> >
> > How insanely out of touch with reality.
> >
> Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
> you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
> insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
>
> Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
>

John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were staying
in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the UK,
you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF relay
transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20 (yes
20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of Freeview
viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.


> John
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 3:06:24 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

In article <39c46iF61d5d4U1@individual.net>,
"ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> "John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
> news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
>> In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>> > John S. Dyson wrote:
>> >> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >>
>> >>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>> >>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>> >>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>> >> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>> >> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>> >> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>> >> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>> >> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>> >> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>> >
>> > How insanely out of touch with reality.
>> >
>> Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
>> you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
>> insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
>>
>> Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
>>
>
> John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were staying
> in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the UK,
> you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF relay
> transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20 (yes
> 20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of Freeview
> viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.
>
But remember, I watch HDTV almost every day with an indoor antenna using
8VSB transport, yet people like Bob claim that it doesnt work. It is
NOT CREDIBLE that a coverage that would require at least 10kW on analog
(given the same RF bandwidth) only takes 20Ws on digital. The difference
of approx 30db is a little more than the approx 10dB advantage (peak
analog vs. average digital.)

I am NOT arguing COFDM vs. 8VSB, but the HDTV wannabes overseas and
the HDTV haters in the US seem to be making the argument!!!

John
March 11, 2005 3:23:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:D 0qne0$2h0l$1@news.iquest.net...
> In article <39c46iF61d5d4U1@individual.net>,
> "ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > "John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
> > news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
> >> In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> >> > John S. Dyson wrote:
> >> >> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> >> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
> >> >>
> >> >>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that
at
> >> >>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in
this
> >> >>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
> >> >> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
> >> >> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
> >> >> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
> >> >> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the
problems
> >> >> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
> >> >> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
> >> >
> >> > How insanely out of touch with reality.
> >> >
> >> Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
> >> you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
> >> insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
> >>
> >> Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
> >>
> >
> > John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were
staying
> > in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the
UK,
> > you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF
relay
> > transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20
(yes
> > 20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of
Freeview
> > viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.
> >
> But remember, I watch HDTV almost every day with an indoor antenna using
> 8VSB transport, yet people like Bob claim that it doesnt work. It is
> NOT CREDIBLE that a coverage that would require at least 10kW on analog
> (given the same RF bandwidth) only takes 20Ws on digital. The difference
> of approx 30db is a little more than the approx 10dB advantage (peak
> analog vs. average digital.)
>
> I am NOT arguing COFDM vs. 8VSB, but the HDTV wannabes overseas and
> the HDTV haters in the US seem to be making the argument!!!
>
Just as I (living in the UK) for exactly the same reasons as yourself
wouldn't dream of criticising 8VSB, for the very obvious reason of never
having had any hands-on experience of it.

Yet by the same token some people on your side of the pond are prepared to
'theoretically' tear COFDM to pieces without themselves having had any
'practical' experience of it.


> John
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 3:23:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

ivan wrote:

> Yet by the same token some people on your side of the pond are prepared to
> 'theoretically' tear COFDM to pieces without themselves having had any
> 'practical' experience of it.
>

Any who are complaining about XM radio have first hand experience.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 4:07:48 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

In article <39c6ntF5vbi80U1@individual.net>,
"ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
> "John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
> news:D 0qne0$2h0l$1@news.iquest.net...
>> In article <39c46iF61d5d4U1@individual.net>,
>> "ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>> >
>> > "John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
>> > news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
>> >> In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >> > John S. Dyson wrote:
>> >> >> In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>> >> >> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that
> at
>> >> >>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in
> this
>> >> >>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>> >> >> COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>> >> >> overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>> >> >> the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>> >> >> to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the
> problems
>> >> >> with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>> >> >> likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>> >> >
>> >> > How insanely out of touch with reality.
>> >> >
>> >> Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
>> >> you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
>> >> insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
>> >>
>> >> Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
>> >>
>> >
>> > John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were
> staying
>> > in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the
> UK,
>> > you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF
> relay
>> > transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20
> (yes
>> > 20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of
> Freeview
>> > viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.
>> >
>> But remember, I watch HDTV almost every day with an indoor antenna using
>> 8VSB transport, yet people like Bob claim that it doesnt work. It is
>> NOT CREDIBLE that a coverage that would require at least 10kW on analog
>> (given the same RF bandwidth) only takes 20Ws on digital. The difference
>> of approx 30db is a little more than the approx 10dB advantage (peak
>> analog vs. average digital.)
>>
>> I am NOT arguing COFDM vs. 8VSB, but the HDTV wannabes overseas and
>> the HDTV haters in the US seem to be making the argument!!!
>>
> Just as I (living in the UK) for exactly the same reasons as yourself
> wouldn't dream of criticising 8VSB, for the very obvious reason of never
> having had any hands-on experience of it.
>
> Yet by the same token some people on your side of the pond are prepared to
> 'theoretically' tear COFDM to pieces without themselves having had any
> 'practical' experience of it.
>
Note that if you read my commentary (that which you might be criticizing),
you might read further and realize that it was meant to be an example
of a Bobism to help wake him up.

However, my suggestions about the weaknesses of COFDM are accurate, but
just like multipath might be more of an issue for 8VSB, it isn't the
problem that I see (the problems that I have are related more to
interference and overly hot signals, which COFDM isn't really any
better at dealing with.) AN overloaded front end is likely to be
even more troubling for COFDM (because any bursty intermod products
will act similar to impulse.) My guess is that one reason why people
don't see pixelization on COFDM as often as when transient damage
causes it on DV25 or on OTA 8VSB, it is because the damage has longer
timeframe effects on COFDM (destroying more data because of the encoding
method.) Short term noise bursts on 8VSB tend only to destroy a limited
amount of data, and not large amounts of data that are spread amongst
numerous carriers at a low baud rate per carrier.

Too often, non-multipath related problems are mistaken to be the
oh so very feared multipath. It is blown far far out of proportion
as a problem.

I don't care about the COFDM vs. 8VSB argument, but when someone
claims that my setup that I watch HDTV almost every night cannot
work, their incompetency is proven. Multipath can be a problem
in my setup, but it isn't the prominent problem... In my situation,
with difficult mixes of signal levels, COFDM is likely going to be
just as troubled (or moreso) than 8VSB. It isn't worth condemning
8VSB or COFDM, however. (It will be nice when NTSC is turned off,
and the interference from NTSC transmitters and the overwhelmed
front ends will be less troubled.)

COFDM is imperfect, but no-one should feel insulted. 8VSB is
imperfect, but no-one should feel insulted. Only those who have
based all of their credibility on the demise or hatred of another
system should feel so much about the modulation systems.

(NO matter what, until the flicker... Whoops!!!)

John
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:12:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

ivan wrote:
> "John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
> news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
>
>>In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>
>>>John S. Dyson wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>>>>COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>>>>overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>>>>the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>>>>to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>>>>with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>>>>likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>>>
>>>How insanely out of touch with reality.
>>>
>>
>>Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
>>you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
>>insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
>>
>>Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
>>
>
>
> John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were staying
> in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the UK,
> you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF relay
> transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20 (yes
> 20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of Freeview
> viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.

He doesn't want to hear that Ivan, it rocks his boat. He is in denial
and can't comprehend that 8-VSB is indefensible. A 20 Watt transmitter
is incomprehensible in the 8-VSB world.

Bob Miller
>
>
>
>>John
>
>
>
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:36:37 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

John S. Dyson wrote:
> In article <39c46iF61d5d4U1@individual.net>,
> "ivan" <ivan'H'older@yahoo.co.uk> writes:
>
>>"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
>>news:D 0qgqn$2evh$1@news.iquest.net...
>>
>>>In article <y1YXd.4980$oO4.4956@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>
>>>>John S. Dyson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>>>>Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>>>>>COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>>>>>overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>>>>>the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>>>>>to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>>>>>with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>>>>>likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>>>>
>>>>How insanely out of touch with reality.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Thank you -- I have been giving you feedback as EXACTLY the way that
>>>you seem to the rest of the community. Your claims are indeed mostly
>>>insane, and I gave you a small taste of your own medicine... :-).
>>>
>>>Think now, about how insane you really seem to us.
>>>
>>
>>John, If you'd have looked out of the window of that hotel you were staying
>>in on the outskirts of Bristol on the last occasion that you visited the UK,
>>you would have most likely noticed the small 'Kings Weston Hill UHF relay
>>transmitter', which despite only having a digital output of a mere 20 (yes
>>20) Watts, still manages to deliver solid reception to thousands of Freeview
>>viewers in a surrounding area of up to at least 10 kilometres away.
>>
>
> But remember, I watch HDTV almost every day with an indoor antenna using
> 8VSB transport, yet people like Bob claim that it doesnt work. It is
> NOT CREDIBLE that a coverage that would require at least 10kW on analog
> (given the same RF bandwidth) only takes 20Ws on digital. The difference
> of approx 30db is a little more than the approx 10dB advantage (peak
> analog vs. average digital.)
>
> I am NOT arguing COFDM vs. 8VSB, but the HDTV wannabes overseas and
> the HDTV haters in the US seem to be making the argument!!!
>
> John

Why does it have to be in your world that someone who correctly
criticizes the 8-VSB modulation is an HDTV hater. What's to hate about
HDTV? And why shouldn't people overseas want HDTV. HDTV is great. But
you would equate again 8-VSB with HDTV.

HDTV comes from satellites and cables and terrestrial broadcast. It is
delivered via different modulations and in Europe they have one and
will have three satellites delivering HD soon. France will also have
terrestrial COFDM MPEG-4 delivered HD.

Its like claiming I must hate milk because I criticize the milkman for
doing a bad job of delivery. What kind of thinking demands that you make
these ridiculous transpositions?

I can still love HD and suggest that maybe OTA broadcasting is not the
best way to deliver it or maybe OTA shouldn't be used to deliver it or
that the customer, the viewer should be treated with more respect by
their government which seems to believe it has to deceive its citizens
to get them to buy DTV capable TV sets.

Otherwise they would put a sticker on every MANDATED integrated DTV set
saying in big print. YOU SHOULD NOT BUY THIS DTV SET IF YOU ARE ONLY
PLANNING ON USING IT WITH CABLE OR SATELLITE SINCE THIS DTV SET HAS AN
OTA RECEIVER THAT ADDS $100 TO $150 TO ITS PRICE WHICH IS A WASTE FOR
YOUR PURPOSES!! THIS IS YOUR GOOD GOVERNMENT LOOKING OUT FOR YOUR BEST
INTEREST

What they want to put on that analog set (listened to the hearing this
morning) is a sticker that says WARNING THIS SET IS A BAD BUY SINCE IT
WILL BE USELESS IN AS LITTLE AS TWO YEARS, YOU SHOULD BUY A DIGITAL TV
SINCE IT WILL BE REQUIRED FOR EVERYTHING IN AS LITTLE AS TWO YEARS.

Though witnesses at the hearing said at least three times that only 15%
of viewers needed these digital receivers Congresspersons still insisted
on saying that a draconian warning should be put on all analog TV sets
today saying that they would be totally obsolete in a few years.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 8:43:05 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Matthew L. Martin wrote:
> ivan wrote:
>
>> Yet by the same token some people on your side of the pond are
>> prepared to
>> 'theoretically' tear COFDM to pieces without themselves having had any
>> 'practical' experience of it.
>>
>
> Any who are complaining about XM radio have first hand experience.
>
> Matthew
>
Not until you give co-ordinates of where you are having reception
problems to see if it is within the coverage area of a repeater. Last
time I was given a location there was NO COFDM repeater coverage in the
area. XM does not use COFDM on their satellites.

And it may be difficult to compare what may be heroic COFDM repeaters in
the 2.4 MHz spectrum to what COFDM is doing in the 700 MHz spectrum. I
would not want to operate a TV broadcast or radio broadcast network in
2.4 MHz. The cell sites have to be very small. I do not envy Crown
Castle their spectrum in the 1.5 MHz either.

The fact is that across all spectrum, whatever the difficulties of a
particular band, we find almost all RF today using COFDM and for good
reason.

Bob Miller
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 9:29:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Tim Keating wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:34:22 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>John S. Dyson wrote:
>>
>>>In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>>
>>>
>>>Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>>>COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>>>overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>>>the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>>>to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>>>with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>>>likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>>
>>How insanely out of touch with reality. The exact opposite is true in
>>the real world. In the UK they have an average of ONE kW per transmitter
>>that is 1000 WATTS and they sold SIX million receivers that have an
>>average cost of under $70 last year. Somebody likes the reception that
>>is being offered by these EXTREMELY LOW POWERED COFDM TRANSMITTERS.
>
>
> Another lie booby.. When will you ever learn..
>
> ... a quick average of BBC based DTV xmiters in UK.. yields an
> average of
>
> 3.37 Kw per tansmitter.. see
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/tv_transmitters/tv_digit...
>
> If I remove the tramitters under 250 watts.. (Dinky repeaters don't
> count for much).. The averange jumps to 5.2 kw per transmitter..

They actually count for a lot, each one delivers programming to large
areas of the UK with lots of population.

BTW thanks for making my point. Or do you think that the difference
between 1 kW and 3.37 kWs is a lot? Seems that John Dyson thinks
anything below 300 kW is puny. Many here in the US consider 100 kW to
300 kW is puny low power stuff that is the reason 8-VSB doesn't work yet.
>
> Additionally.. suming up the transmitter power per channel yeilds
>
> An average 275 Kw per channel to deliver limited COFDM service from ~85 antenna towers.

And how did you come up with " limited' what does that mean and where
did it come from? It seems the citizens of the UK think it is a big
deal, some 30 free channels of DTV and 12 or so digital radio channels
thrown in. Some six million receivers have been sold to get that
"limited" COFDM service.

I have no idea what adding up the power of all the stations on a
particular channel does for you. If I add up all the power of say just
the DIGITAL stations in Anchorage Alaska only because they are at the
top of the list

http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt

AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
AKANCHORAGE333 250.0

I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW

Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has
using COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to
digital TV as the entire nation of the UK.

Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all
their power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.

So what is this about COFDM needing more power???

Bob Miller
March 11, 2005 10:42:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:NUaYd.6925$cN6.4863@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> Tim Keating wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:34:22 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John S. Dyson wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>>>>COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>>>>overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>>>>the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>>>>to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>>>>with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>>>>likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>>>
>>>How insanely out of touch with reality. The exact opposite is true in the
>>>real world. In the UK they have an average of ONE kW per transmitter that
>>>is 1000 WATTS and they sold SIX million receivers that have an average
>>>cost of under $70 last year. Somebody likes the reception that is being
>>>offered by these EXTREMELY LOW POWERED COFDM TRANSMITTERS.
>>
>>
>> Another lie booby.. When will you ever learn.. ... a quick average of
>> BBC based DTV xmiters in UK.. yields an
>> average of
>>
>> 3.37 Kw per tansmitter.. see
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/tv_transmitters/tv_digit...
>>
>> If I remove the tramitters under 250 watts.. (Dinky repeaters don't
>> count for much).. The averange jumps to 5.2 kw per transmitter..
>
> They actually count for a lot, each one delivers programming to large
> areas of the UK with lots of population.
>
> BTW thanks for making my point. Or do you think that the difference
> between 1 kW and 3.37 kWs is a lot? Seems that John Dyson thinks anything
> below 300 kW is puny. Many here in the US consider 100 kW to 300 kW is
> puny low power stuff that is the reason 8-VSB doesn't work yet.
>>
>> Additionally.. suming up the transmitter power per channel yeilds An
>> average 275 Kw per channel to deliver limited COFDM service from ~85
>> antenna towers.
>
> And how did you come up with " limited' what does that mean and where did
> it come from? It seems the citizens of the UK think it is a big deal, some
> 30 free channels of DTV and 12 or so digital radio channels thrown in.
> Some six million receivers have been sold to get that "limited" COFDM
> service.
>
> I have no idea what adding up the power of all the stations on a
> particular channel does for you. If I add up all the power of say just the
> DIGITAL stations in Anchorage Alaska only because they are at the top of
> the list
>
> http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt
>
> AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
> AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
> AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
> AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
> AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
> AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
> AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
> AKANCHORAGE333 250.0
>
> I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW
>
> Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has using
> COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to digital TV
> as the entire nation of the UK.
>
> Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all their
> power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.
>
> So what is this about COFDM needing more power???
>
> Bob Miller



careers@railnetwork.tv
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:14:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, Tim Keating wrote:
>> http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt

I wonder why Bob Miller has to cite as a source an obscure Southern
California vendor of wireless microphones and similar equipment. They're
probably a few techno-nerds who, in their spare time, collect techie data
from various and sundry sources with the emphasis being on quantity rather
than quality in the collection.

They'd probably be horrified if they heard that Usenet crank Bob Miller
was citing them as a source to bolster his crackpot arguments.

> Next let's go to the real source.. the FCC database..
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Using the real source?!? Who'd ever thunk it?

-- Mark --

http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
Si vis pacem, para bellum.
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 12:36:31 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:29:01 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Tim Keating wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 13:34:22 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>John S. Dyson wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <vQtXd.4190$oO4.2927@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
>>>> Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> writes:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not cherry picking, I was very specific. I want people to know that at
>>>>>any point in the coverage area of an 8-VSB broadcast station, in this
>>>>>case 20 miles, that multipath can and DOES exist,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Impulse noise DOES exist, which seriously increases the needed
>>>>COFDM signal level. The additional 20dB of signal required to
>>>>overcome impulse noise (of course, that is variable), can change
>>>>the needed 100kW to 1MW for covering a large metro area into 10MW
>>>>to 100MW for reliable COFDM indoor coverage. To overcome the problems
>>>>with COFDM (where it is worse than 8VSB), then TV stations would
>>>>likely have to pay 10-100X the electicity bills!!!
>>>
>>>How insanely out of touch with reality. The exact opposite is true in
>>>the real world. In the UK they have an average of ONE kW per transmitter
>>>that is 1000 WATTS and they sold SIX million receivers that have an
>>>average cost of under $70 last year. Somebody likes the reception that
>>>is being offered by these EXTREMELY LOW POWERED COFDM TRANSMITTERS.
>>
>>
>> Another lie booby.. When will you ever learn..
>>
>> ... a quick average of BBC based DTV xmiters in UK.. yields an
>> average of
>>
>> 3.37 Kw per tansmitter.. see
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/tv_transmitters/tv_digit...
>>
>> If I remove the tramitters under 250 watts.. (Dinky repeaters don't
>> count for much).. The averange jumps to 5.2 kw per transmitter..
>
>They actually count for a lot, each one delivers programming to large
>areas of the UK with lots of population.
>
>BTW thanks for making my point. Or do you think that the difference
>between 1 kW and 3.37 kWs is a lot? Seems that John Dyson thinks
>anything below 300 kW is puny. Many here in the US consider 100 kW to
>300 kW is puny low power stuff that is the reason 8-VSB doesn't work yet.
>>
>> Additionally.. suming up the transmitter power per channel yeilds
>>
>> An average 275 Kw per channel to deliver limited COFDM service from ~85 antenna towers.
>
>And how did you come up with " limited' what does that mean and where
>did it come from? It seems the citizens of the UK think it is a big
>deal, some 30 free channels of DTV and 12 or so digital radio channels
>thrown in. Some six million receivers have been sold to get that
>"limited" COFDM service.
>
>I have no idea what adding up the power of all the stations on a
>particular channel does for you. If I add up all the power of say just
>the DIGITAL stations in Anchorage Alaska only because they are at the
>top of the list
>
>http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt
>
>AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
>AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
>AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
>AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
>AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
>AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
>AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
>AKANCHORAGE333 250.0

Too bad you can;t even cut and paste correctly..
here is a proper cut and paste.. from that link..


Mayhew & Company NTSC/DTV Channel assigments effective 09/20/2004
State City NTSC HDTV DTV Pwr. in KW
AK ANCHORAGE 2 18 1000.0
AK ANCHORAGE 4 20 234.4
AK ANCHORAGE 5 22 1000.0
AK ANCHORAGE 7 24 1000.0
AK ANCHORAGE 9 26 1000.0
AK ANCHORAGE 11 28 50.0
AK ANCHORAGE 13 30 1000.0
AK ANCHORAGE 33 32 50.0


Notice a bunch of the numbers have conviently been altered thru
selective usage/deletion of spaces. Also notice the numbers seam a
bit too rounded for my taste.. Did someone just make up numbers??

I smell a BM con job... Check out the research below..

>
>I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW

Too bad you don't know how to check facts, cut and paste, or add..

>
>Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has
>using COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to
>digital TV as the entire nation of the UK.
>
>Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all
>their power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.

Next let's go to the real source.. the FCC database..

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

Plugging in Anchorage, Alaska.
Select Digital television, all records, and ask for a detailed
query..


MoCP for KYES chan 6 .. xmit power 45 kW ERP
MoCP for KAKM chan 8 ..xmit power 50 kW ERP
MoCP for KTUU chan 10 .xmit power 21 kW ERP
MoCP for KIMO chan 12 .xmit power 41 kW ERP
MoCP for KTBY chan 20 .xmit power 54.4 kW ERP
MoCP for KTVA chan 28 .xmit power 52 kW ERP
CP for KDMD chan 32 .xmit power 50kW ERP


That seven channels average DTV xmit power 44 kW ERP..
total power 313.4 kW, that's less than 5% of BM's calculation.. .

ok.. maybe he was using the old NTSC xmit power ratings..
Checking... .found 9 NTSC stations covering Anchorage,
highest NSTC xmit power is 316 kW.


BM's link and numbers are NOT EVEN CLOSE..
And as usual BM.. stands for Bullshitlyingconartist Miller..
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 2:54:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Boobster..... Why are you posting here, and NOT WORKING?


Fear can hold you prisoner
Hope can set you free

"Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:bN9Yd.5761$oO4.1398@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> He doesn't want to hear that Ivan, it rocks his boat. He is in denial and
> can't comprehend that 8-VSB is indefensible. A 20 Watt transmitter is
> incomprehensible in the 8-VSB world.
>
> Bob Miller
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 7:38:56 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

>Boob Miller borishly wrote:

> No I was just in a hurry and got bad data


You do that alot don't ya?
Anonymous
March 11, 2005 10:20:29 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:
> No I was just in a hurry and got bad data having picked the first web

> site that came up and the first info on the list which is outdated.

Right BOOBSTER, we sure believe THAT. Unreal.
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 2:41:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Tim Keating wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:29:01 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>

>>
>>http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt
>>
>>AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
>>AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
>>AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
>>AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
>>AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
>>AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
>>AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
>>AKANCHORAGE333 250.0
>
>
> Too bad you can;t even cut and paste correctly..
> here is a proper cut and paste.. from that link..
>
>
> Mayhew & Company NTSC/DTV Channel assigments effective 09/20/2004
> State City NTSC HDTV DTV Pwr. in KW
> AK ANCHORAGE 2 18 1000.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 4 20 234.4
> AK ANCHORAGE 5 22 1000.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 7 24 1000.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 9 26 1000.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 11 28 50.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 13 30 1000.0
> AK ANCHORAGE 33 32 50.0
>
>
> Notice a bunch of the numbers have conviently been altered thru
> selective usage/deletion of spaces. Also notice the numbers seam a
> bit too rounded for my taste.. Did someone just make up numbers??
>
> I smell a BM con job... Check out the research below..
>
>
>>I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW
>
>
> Too bad you don't know how to check facts, cut and paste, or add..
>
>
>>Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has
>>using COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to
>>digital TV as the entire nation of the UK.
>>
>>Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all
>>their power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.
>
>
> Next let's go to the real source.. the FCC database..
>
> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html
>
> Plugging in Anchorage, Alaska.
> Select Digital television, all records, and ask for a detailed
> query..
>
>
> MoCP for KYES chan 6 .. xmit power 45 kW ERP
> MoCP for KAKM chan 8 ..xmit power 50 kW ERP
> MoCP for KTUU chan 10 .xmit power 21 kW ERP
> MoCP for KIMO chan 12 .xmit power 41 kW ERP
> MoCP for KTBY chan 20 .xmit power 54.4 kW ERP
> MoCP for KTVA chan 28 .xmit power 52 kW ERP
> CP for KDMD chan 32 .xmit power 50kW ERP
>
>
> That seven channels average DTV xmit power 44 kW ERP..
> total power 313.4 kW, that's less than 5% of BM's calculation.. .
>
> ok.. maybe he was using the old NTSC xmit power ratings..
> Checking... .found 9 NTSC stations covering Anchorage,
> highest NSTC xmit power is 316 kW.
>
>
> BM's link and numbers are NOT EVEN CLOSE..
> And as usual BM.. stands for Bullshitlyingconartist Miller..


No I was just in a hurry and got bad data having picked the first web
site that came up and the first info on the list which is outdated. In
fact only two stations are on the air in Anchorage, KDMD at 30 Watts and
my friend Jeremy Lansman's KYES at 20 Watts. Both with around a 400 Watt
ERP. Jeremy tells me he has a customer 40 miles out.

Lets go to the second on the list Alabama and a SINGLE city in Alabama,
Mobile and we will use the FCC web site for our info this time not to
get it wrong ( like the FCC web site doesn't get it wrong now and again.

Mobile Alabama has five stations listed,

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=AL&call=&arn=&city...

WALA 29 kW (CP MOD)
WMPV 500 kW (CP)
WKRG 1000 kW (CP MOD)
WEIQ 199 kW (LIC)
WPMI 1000 kW (LIC)

Total 2728 kW

That is Mobile Alabama has 1000 kW more power allocated to DTV on these
five stations than the UK has on all its 484 DTV transmitters which is
about 1700 kW.
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 10:36:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:41:11 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Tim Keating wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:29:01 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
>
>>>
>>>http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt
>>>
>>>AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
>>>AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE333 250.0
>>
>>
>> Too bad you can;t even cut and paste correctly..
>> here is a proper cut and paste.. from that link..
>>
>>
>> Mayhew & Company NTSC/DTV Channel assigments effective 09/20/2004
>> State City NTSC HDTV DTV Pwr. in KW
>> AK ANCHORAGE 2 18 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 4 20 234.4
>> AK ANCHORAGE 5 22 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 7 24 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 9 26 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 11 28 50.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 13 30 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 33 32 50.0
>>
>>
>> Notice a bunch of the numbers have conviently been altered thru
>> selective usage/deletion of spaces. Also notice the numbers seam a
>> bit too rounded for my taste.. Did someone just make up numbers??
>>
>> I smell a BM con job... Check out the research below..
>>
>>
>>>I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW
>>
>>
>> Too bad you don't know how to check facts, cut and paste, or add..
>>
>>
>>>Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has
>>>using COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to
>>>digital TV as the entire nation of the UK.
>>>
>>>Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all
>>>their power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.
>>
>>
>> Next let's go to the real source.. the FCC database..
>>
>> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html
>>
>> Plugging in Anchorage, Alaska.
>> Select Digital television, all records, and ask for a detailed
>> query..
>>
>>
>> MoCP for KYES chan 6 .. xmit power 45 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KAKM chan 8 ..xmit power 50 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTUU chan 10 .xmit power 21 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KIMO chan 12 .xmit power 41 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTBY chan 20 .xmit power 54.4 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTVA chan 28 .xmit power 52 kW ERP
>> CP for KDMD chan 32 .xmit power 50kW ERP
>>
>>
>> That seven channels average DTV xmit power 44 kW ERP..
>> total power 313.4 kW, that's less than 5% of BM's calculation.. .
>>
>> ok.. maybe he was using the old NTSC xmit power ratings..
>> Checking... .found 9 NTSC stations covering Anchorage,
>> highest NSTC xmit power is 316 kW.
>>
>>
>> BM's link and numbers are NOT EVEN CLOSE..
>> And as usual BM.. stands for Bullshitlyingconartist Miller..
>
>
>No I was just in a hurry and got bad data having picked the first web
>site that came up and the first info on the list which is outdated. In
>fact only two stations are on the air in Anchorage, KDMD at 30 Watts and
>my friend Jeremy Lansman's KYES at 20 Watts. Both with around a 400 Watt
>ERP. Jeremy tells me he has a customer 40 miles out.
>
>Lets go to the second on the list Alabama and a SINGLE city in Alabama,
>Mobile and we will use the FCC web site for our info this time not to
>get it wrong ( like the FCC web site doesn't get it wrong now and again.
>
>Mobile Alabama has five stations listed,
>
>http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=AL&call=&arn=&city...
>
>WALA 29 kW (CP MOD)
>WMPV 500 kW (CP)
>WKRG 1000 kW (CP MOD)
>WEIQ 199 kW (LIC)
>WPMI 1000 kW (LIC)

Those 1 MW DTV transmitters are replacing 5 MW ERP NTSC stations,
which broadcasts programming to four states. Providing over 20,000
square miles of contiguous coverage.

>Total 2728 kW
>
>That is Mobile Alabama has 1000 kW more power allocated to DTV on these
>five stations than the UK has on all its 484 DTV transmitters which is
>about 1700 kW.

1700kW to cover just spots.. no contiguous coverage over the UK..
Plus.,.. COFDM is reliabilty falls into the dumpster at mid range..
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 10:39:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 23:41:11 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>Tim Keating wrote:
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 06:29:01 GMT, Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net>
>
>>>
>>>http://www.mayhewco.com/newfcc.txt
>>>
>>>AKANCHORAGE218 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE420 234.4
>>>AKANCHORAGE522 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE724 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE926 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE112 850.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE1330 1000.0
>>>AKANCHORAGE333 250.0
>>
>>
>> Too bad you can;t even cut and paste correctly..
>> here is a proper cut and paste.. from that link..
>>
>>
>> Mayhew & Company NTSC/DTV Channel assigments effective 09/20/2004
>> State City NTSC HDTV DTV Pwr. in KW
>> AK ANCHORAGE 2 18 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 4 20 234.4
>> AK ANCHORAGE 5 22 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 7 24 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 9 26 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 11 28 50.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 13 30 1000.0
>> AK ANCHORAGE 33 32 50.0
>>
>>
>> Notice a bunch of the numbers have conviently been altered thru
>> selective usage/deletion of spaces. Also notice the numbers seam a
>> bit too rounded for my taste.. Did someone just make up numbers??
>>
>> I smell a BM con job... Check out the research below..
>>
>>
>>>I get an impressive total of 6,334.4 kW
>>
>>
>> Too bad you don't know how to check facts, cut and paste, or add..
>>
>>
>>>Compared to the Around 1,700 kW the entire nation of the UK has
>>>using COFDM. That is ONE US city has FOUR times the power devoted to
>>>digital TV as the entire nation of the UK.
>>>
>>>Do you want to go on the the other 1,710 US stations and add up all
>>>their power? Probably 1000 times the entire worlds COFDM power level.
>>
>>
>> Next let's go to the real source.. the FCC database..
>>
>> http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html
>>
>> Plugging in Anchorage, Alaska.
>> Select Digital television, all records, and ask for a detailed
>> query..
>>
>>
>> MoCP for KYES chan 6 .. xmit power 45 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KAKM chan 8 ..xmit power 50 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTUU chan 10 .xmit power 21 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KIMO chan 12 .xmit power 41 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTBY chan 20 .xmit power 54.4 kW ERP
>> MoCP for KTVA chan 28 .xmit power 52 kW ERP
>> CP for KDMD chan 32 .xmit power 50kW ERP
>>
>>
>> That seven channels average DTV xmit power 44 kW ERP..
>> total power 313.4 kW, that's less than 5% of BM's calculation.. .
>>
>> ok.. maybe he was using the old NTSC xmit power ratings..
>> Checking... .found 9 NTSC stations covering Anchorage,
>> highest NSTC xmit power is 316 kW.
>>
>>
>> BM's link and numbers are NOT EVEN CLOSE..
>> And as usual BM.. stands for Bullshitlyingconartist Miller..
>
>
>No I was just in a hurry and got bad data having picked the first web
>site that came up and the first info on the list which is outdated. In
>fact only two stations are on the air in Anchorage, KDMD at 30 Watts and
>my friend Jeremy Lansman's KYES at 20 Watts. Both with around a 400 Watt
>ERP. Jeremy tells me he has a customer 40 miles out.
>
>Lets go to the second on the list Alabama and a SINGLE city in Alabama,
>Mobile and we will use the FCC web site for our info this time not to
>get it wrong ( like the FCC web site doesn't get it wrong now and again.
>
>Mobile Alabama has five stations listed,
>
>http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=AL&call=&arn=&city...
>
>WALA 29 kW (CP MOD)
>WMPV 500 kW (CP)
>WKRG 1000 kW (CP MOD)
>WEIQ 199 kW (LIC)
>WPMI 1000 kW (LIC)

Those 1 MW DTV transmitters are replacing 5 MW ERP NTSC stations,
which broadcasts programming to four states. Providing over 20,000
square miles of contiguous coverage.

>Total 2728 kW
>
>That is Mobile Alabama has 1000 kW more power allocated to DTV on these
>five stations than the UK has on all its 484 DTV transmitters which is
>about 1700 kW.

1700kW to cover just spots.. no contiguous coverage over the UK..
Plus.,.. COFDM reliabilty falls into the dumpster at mid range..
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 4:46:58 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv,alt.usenet.kook (More info?)

Bob Miller wrote:

> What is wrong with this picture?

The fact that you have COFDM of the brain?
Your insane worship of a particular modulation scheme??

Your bitter disappointment of vestigial sideband modulation as it
relates to pork prices in Peru?

Bob, come'on ... get over it. American digital TV is going to kick
butt. Why are you such a crybaby?

have some candy ... Winfield %~)

--
CofDm: Church of Deranged Miller
Attend a service today.
Bring your antenna ...
!