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outcome of hdtv failure: why extended service contracts ar..

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Anonymous
March 10, 2005 3:41:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

i bought a samsung 50" HLM507W dlp set in february of 2003. in
january and february of 2005 it started having trouble turning on,
eventually dying completely on about february 11.

since i believed this technology was still an uncertain bet, i bought
the 5 year service contract. that is the good news. the bad news is
that it took almost 2 weeks for the contract fullfilment company to
get a tech in to look at the set. his diagnosis was that the whole
central guts of the picture generating system was shot -and the TI
chip which actually forms the picture was not turning on. this unit
is called the DMD by them. also the cooling fans were beginning to
make noises and were going to fail soon.

it took another two weeks for insurance approval, delivery of parts,
and scheduling before the replacement unit went in. that was today.
the new unit has the newer TI chip, three cooling fans instead of the
two in the original set, a beefed up power supply and improved lamp.
(parts cost $1200). it took about an hour of time for the
installation once they arrived (well within their promised time).

so i lost a month of service, but i now have an improved picture
unit, and the service contract still has three years to run.

i think any hdtv set not using old-fashioned crt technology warrants
the service contract. we are really unable to service these ourselves.
(in the days of tube sets i did most of my own tv repairs.)
--
getting out of bed in the morning is an act of false confidence
- jules feifer
to email me, delete blackhole. from my return address
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 3:41:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so cheap
you come out ahead.

CC
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 10:21:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

calderhome@yahoo.com wrote:
> Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
> video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so cheap
> you come out ahead.
>

You may, or you may not. Service contracts on all of my HT equipement
purchased since April, 1997 would have cost ~$1400. The total amount I
spent in repairs on equipment that was less than 5 years old -- $135.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?
Anonymous
March 10, 2005 11:20:28 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

only if something goes wrong...otherwise, they wouldn't be selling the
contracts at that price


<calderhome@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1110418119.025291.320220@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
> video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so cheap
> you come out ahead.
>
> CC
>
March 10, 2005 6:44:30 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 07:21:28 -0500, "Matthew L. Martin"
<nothere@notnow.never> wrote:

>calderhome@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
>> video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so cheap
>> you come out ahead.
>>
>
>You may, or you may not. Service contracts on all of my HT equipement
>purchased since April, 1997 would have cost ~$1400. The total amount I
>spent in repairs on equipment that was less than 5 years old -- $135.


How about the details. Did you fix it yourself? Was it a service
call? What was the equipment?
Thumper
To reply drop XYZ in address
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 4:26:00 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <1130eu92djeib73@corp.supernews.com>,
"Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote:

> > Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
> > video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so
> > cheap you come out ahead.
>
> You may, or you may not. Service contracts on all of my HT equipement
> purchased since April, 1997 would have cost ~$1400. The total amount
> I spent in repairs on equipment that was less than 5 years old --
> $135.

I had my computer in the shop this week; the repair cost was $420.19
parts, labor, and sales tax. I've owned computers since 1978, and this
is the first repair bill I've had. I shudder to think what twenty-seven
years of service contracts would have cost me; comparatively, the four
hundred twenty is chicken feed.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 7:01:54 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I've never had a TV set fail in less than five years, except for a black
and white set I bought from Sears. That set started smoking when I first
turned it on, so I returned it to Sears for a replacement.

I figure I'm still ahead even if my Samsung CRT Rear Projection fails in
the third year. One year warranty from Samsung, one year extension from
credit card company has me covered for two years. Sears wanted over $600
for a three year service contract, which kicked in at purchase. Only
benefit I could see was a free "tune-up" every 12 months.

Bill

"Matthew L. Martin" <nothere@notnow.never> wrote in message
news:1130eu92djeib73@corp.supernews.com...
calderhome@yahoo.com wrote:
> Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
> video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so cheap
> you come out ahead.
>

You may, or you may not. Service contracts on all of my HT equipement
purchased since April, 1997 would have cost ~$1400. The total amount I
spent in repairs on equipment that was less than 5 years old -- $135.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:06:45 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <yv6dnXEx0b2WHq7fRVn-qg@adelphia.com>,
"Bill Sharpe" <billsharpe@nsadelphia.net> wrote:

> I figure I'm still ahead even if my Samsung CRT Rear Projection fails
> in the third year. One year warranty from Samsung, one year extension
> from credit card company has me covered for two years.

I have an 18 month warranty on my DLP set from Samsung; the normal 12
month, plus a six-month extension for registering the purchase with them.

--
Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 11:21:24 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

After talking with several repair techs, I've come to the conclusion
that this greatly depends on the brand of the set and this is why I
often only recommend a handful of brand names when it comes to CRT RP:
Sony, Hitachi, Mitsubishi, Pioneer (Elite) and Toshiba (Cinema). These
guys use quality assurance tested parts. I don't know what extent each
company goes to in the lab during R&D, but they also make quaity
product and should be reconizied for it and they should not be grouped
among other (some of which are "brand name") manufacturers who produce
inconsistant quality of product.

I find the contracts to be rather pricey. On my $1800 set the contract
was $270 (15%) for a 5-year service agreement and $180 (10%) for a
3-year. The "terms and conditions" of the service agreement where not
laid out in easy to understand lingo; there seemed too much fine print
for my taste, but the two things that I remember explicitly not being
covered were "screen burn-in" and "loss of brightness due to normal
wear". The first is the most common problem, which can easily occur due
to owner abuse (not following the 20% rule, not calibrating their set,
etc..) Considering how easy it is for the consumer to damage their
product I wouldn't want to issue an extended warrenty to cover these
items either, but once you take them off the list, the warrenty isn't
worth it to me.

I've heard of extended warrenties that DO cover burn-in costing as much
as 25% (ouch) for a 3-year. On $3500 plasma, that's around $900(!)


If you look at the defect scale for consumer electronics products you
find the same bell curve as with other products. If something is going
to wrong there's like a 90% chance it will happen either within the
first year or closer to the end of the products lifespan, which for CRT
RP televisions, this almost certainly won't happen within the 3-5 year
service agreement. It could be as early a five years, but only if the
set were left on 24/7. And even in that case, I highly doubt an
extended warrenty is going to pay to repair the CRT guns that have worn
down to natural use. I doubt they will pay for screen burn-in.

I even had one repair tech tell me "...it's a dirty little secret, but
one of the reasons our sales staff pushes Hitachi's so hard is because
their defect rate is next to null... we almost always get a sale on an
extended warrenty and it never gets used" he continued to tell me this
was true for most of the brands throughout their store, albeit to a
lesser degree on other HDTV brands they carried.

I say buy a quality brand and skip the warrenty. You're pay a bit more,
but you'll have a better quality product all-around.


-Jeremy







calderhome@yahoo.com wrote:
> Service contracts are a good idea for CRT based units as well. The
> video amplifier chips tend to brun out, and the contracts are so
cheap
> you come out ahead.
>
> CC
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 10:22:46 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

<Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110774084.086086.253030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>These guys use quality assurance tested parts.

What do you mean by this and what information do you have that the
manufacturers that you listed do anything differently in this regard from
others? I do not disagree with you on the choices of manufacturers, but you
are saying something that is largely meaningless hearsay with statements
like this. For the most part, there is little QA on most parts that goes
beyond that of the original supplier that all of the other brands use. That
does not mean that all brands are equally reliable, but to believe that the
better brands do some QA on most parts that others do not is to believe a
myth. There is a lot more to building in reliability.

> If you look at the defect scale for consumer electronics products you
> find the same bell curve as with other products.

Where do you get this stuff? Do you just make it up? What makes you think
that a bell curve represents the distribution of failures in any given
product. In fact, it is likely not a normal distribution at all but a
combination of more than one type of distribution that varies greatly from
product to product. We typically see products having batches of failures of
the same component or component category as they age out.

> I even had one repair tech tell me "...it's a dirty little secret, but
> one of the reasons our sales staff pushes Hitachi's so hard is because
> their defect rate is next to null... we almost always get a sale on an
> extended warrenty and it never gets used" he continued to tell me this
> was true for most of the brands throughout their store, albeit to a
> lesser degree on other HDTV brands they carried.

It is no secret on all brands that the companies that provide extended
warranties don't pay out anything close to the money they collect, and that
they collect less than half of the sales price of the contract. The other
half goes to the dealer. This is the way nearly all extended warranties
work.

> I say buy a quality brand and skip the warrenty. You're pay a bit more,
> but you'll have a better quality product all-around.

Generally good advice, unless you can get an extended warranty that covers
risks that you feel are excessive for a very cheap price. Extended warranty
companies work with categories sometimes where the upper end products may be
relatively inexpensive to insure. The bottom line is, however, assume that
you don't need it unless you can make a specific case that it is a good
value.

Stick to the good advice and stay away from stating reasons that you have no
support for.

Leonard
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 7:48:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Google's news reader client won't let me respond in-line, but here are
my responses:
By " quality assurance tested parts." I mean that same manufactuers
unit test more than others. For example, I've been told that Hitachi
and Sony manufacture the majority of their parts. So what difference
does it make if they out source the assembly or not, I think by doing
everything themselfs they have better control over the QA process.
Maybe I'm wrong, but then again you do seem to agree with me on the
names I droped as far as being "quality brands".

The comment about the bell curve on consumer electronics products (in a
general context, excluding HDTVs) came from Electrical Engineering :
Principles & Applications by Allan Hambley. Hambley HDTVs in general,
but the referenced defect rate bell curve bubbles all consumer
electronic products in general. HDTVs products make up a percentage of
that and are subject to it as a statistic. If you break out HDTVs by
manufactuer, of course there will be variation, but there's no reason
to believe they wouldn't follow the same pattern.

-Jeremy
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 2:00:10 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

<Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110847729.318203.288500@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Google's news reader client won't let me respond in-line, but here are
> my responses:
> By " quality assurance tested parts." I mean that same manufactuers
> unit test more than others. For example, I've been told that Hitachi
> and Sony manufacture the majority of their parts. So what difference
> does it make if they out source the assembly or not, I think by doing
> everything themselfs they have better control over the QA process.
> Maybe I'm wrong, but then again you do seem to agree with me on the
> names I droped as far as being "quality brands".

Sony and Hitachi do not make more of their parts than, for instance, Philips
or Samsung.

> The comment about the bell curve on consumer electronics products (in a
> general context, excluding HDTVs) came from Electrical Engineering :
> Principles & Applications by Allan Hambley. Hambley HDTVs in general,
> but the referenced defect rate bell curve bubbles all consumer
> electronic products in general. HDTVs products make up a percentage of
> that and are subject to it as a statistic. If you break out HDTVs by
> manufactuer, of course there will be variation, but there's no reason
> to believe they wouldn't follow the same pattern.

I'd like to know where the data comes from. With a given component, say a
transistor or capacitor, the life and distribution of failures is rather
predictable with the constants of the test environment. When you put
hundreds of components together in a complex application like a TV, you end
up with a much more difficult problem and unexpected distributions of
failures. The data is just not available in the real world. The way we
experience failures is typically not in ways that the OEM for the part would
have expected and often not very random. Failure modes tend to follow
patterns in a particular product. The same component may behave very
differently in circuits by two manufacturers. It may also behave
identically, but in a very different way than the OEM predicted. I would be
very surprised if failures in TV product did look like a normal
distribution, though the idea is a useful one overall. I would expect a lot
more noise in the distributions with clusters of failures at various points
in the life of most products. Complex systems can have very chaotic
behaviors that do not reflect the behaviors of individual components.
Recent understanding of complex systems has demonstrated that there is less
reason to believe that they would follow the same pattern.

A good example of a mid-life failure is the tendency to need to resolder
connections on convergence output ICs in RPTV. Many of these need to be
resoldered because the joints crack from thermal cycling. Once you repair
them correctly, that failure will likely never occur again. Does it follow
a normal distribution? Well, it likely does, but the distribution is
shifted to early in the life of the set. Now overlay the distributions for
all failures in the life of the product and you get a noisy mess that is
affected not only by the MTBF or the individual components, but the
interactions and the design and manufacturing variables, like not depositing
enough solder on the connections and using low lead content.

I am not trying to be pedantic, nor really criticizing your conclusions,
just pointing out that the reasons for the outcomes may be much more complex
than you assume. Overall, the "better" manufacturers products don't have as
great a likelihood of having patterns of problems, but they certainly can.
They are also less likely to behave badly in application with other
products.

Leonard
!