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Vista and DX10: Real World DirectX 10 Performance: It Ain't

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July 6, 2007 7:08:01 AM

There is now rather nice article abot Vista and DX10 at Anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3029

Quote:
Both NVIDIA and AMD were very upset over how little we thought of their DX10 class mainstream hardware. They both argued that graphics cards are no longer just about 3D, and additional video decode hardware and DX10 support add a lot of value above the previous generation. We certainly don't see it this way. Yes, we can't expect last years high-end performance to trickle down to the low-end segment, but we should at least demand that this generation's $150 part will always outperform last generation's.


Quote:
This is especially important in a generation that defines the baseline of support for a new API. The 2400 and 8400 cards will always be the lowest common denominator in DX10 hardware. Going forward, developers will have to take that into account, and we won't be able to see key features of games require more horsepower than these cards provide for the next couple of years.


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In short, we really need to see faster hardware before developers can start doing more impressive things with DirectX 10.


The fellows in Anandtech really are not so pleased in to the situation in DX10 hardware section...
a b U Graphics card
July 6, 2007 9:30:07 AM

Reading the article, plus what others Ive read and discussing this, Its no surprise. I believe currently that all gfx hardware is simply not capable of good REAL DX10 ATM. When we see newer archs, and new fab proc at 65 or 55nm then we will finally be able to actually use DX10. I think ATI tried doing this in their arch, but 2 things happened. One , the core leaked badly, and two, the 65nm for it never happened. Look for these proc, of 65 or 55nm to happen, then we will see a more true DX10 card IMHO
July 6, 2007 12:09:40 PM

I think that we've been herded into believing that we are on the cutting edge. As one of the flock, I have been goaded into buying an 8800 thinking that I'm going to be "future proofed". That's one of the most common phrases you hear in the forums. "I just got my 88XX now I'm set for the next 2 years". Well I can only hope that Nvidia - Ati come up with some drastic driver optimizations.

I thought that the whole point of this new API was to DRASTICALLY change the way hardware and software interface and to allow developers/coders to use the full potential of DX10. Although it very early in the game, I think that DX10 is more marketing ploy than reality right now. If we have to wait 3 years for software and mainstream users to jump on the DX10 wagon, us "early pioneers" might just get to Oregon and realize that there's no gold in them hills.
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July 6, 2007 1:56:31 PM

You have got to realize that with every new architecture, and every new technology, the software is always about 3 years behind the real advantages of it. I have been in computers since the TRS-80, and this has held true almost the entire time. AMD released 64bit procs years ago, and we are just now really seeing an industry push to go to that next level, and even now the push is weak. I agree that we should be able to expect certain performance levels of next gen hardware when we buy it, but to say that you will be future proofed is more of a mind-f*** then anything when you are talking about computers. Especially in the gaming world. But to be honest, I ran a GF4ti4200 up until this very month that i upgraded to a GF7600GT. I wasn't getting the highest frame rates in the world, but my card would still run the games. I am just preparing for a slow upgrade process hence the new vid card. But it is only really recently that games come out that use ALL the features in a GF4, GF-FX series cards... Now they won't run those games with full anything, and the fps will be low, but its just the technological stepping stones and those are the bottom step. The current GF8 series cards are that bottom step of DX10. To buy one now is only to make your DX9 stuff run the fastest it can run, because no DX9 card runs as fast as the fastest DX10 card. But to think it will run your DX10 games superfast with the best textures and all that, is simply a misconception that the GPU companies want you to believe. Any game you see released today, save for halo 2 or 3 is it? Which ever one is being solely done on DX10. Will not be fully DX10 and will still use a lot of DX9 stuff. I only expect Halo to be DX10 compliant due to the fact that they should have been working together in the company to make it that way. Alll of this happens because it takes years for companies to make decent software/games.
July 6, 2007 1:57:00 PM

DX10 and vista is a flop. Atleast where the gamer is concerned. And as far as a grafic-card lasting 2 years.. Well I think my old 9800XT Ultra (or whatever it was top of the line back then) lasted almost that long. But then those where the days of 15 inch screens and 1024x768. I do not belive that is possible in the current market. And the rule is that the first of anything most likly is overpriced and underpreforming.

I maintain that for best $/fps so to speak you should buy the second generations top of the line. Like today 7900 or 1950 fex. Because those cards where built to preform with the technology they built in. And they have a few upgrades along the line. While the mainstream 600 series have the new technology but not the horsepower to run it. So you get to see the new pretty effects, in 20 fps...
This may or may not be entierly true overall but it certainly is today. And as benchmarks have shown for the 2600/8600 lines they simply can not run DX10.

But I think they have missed the mainstream market with the new 600 versions. They should be 70$ more and 30% more power and they would be somewhat viable. At the pricerange they are in now they are more like expensive budget cards.. But still budget with all it's drawbacks.

Im not all glued into the various naming conventions but is there any plans to release a 700 variant of the 8000/HD2000 series or a 8600GTX/HD2600XTX or something like that ?
July 6, 2007 3:57:52 PM

Quote:

Im not all glued into the various naming conventions but is there any plans to release a 700 variant of the 8000/HD2000 series or a 8600GTX/HD2600XTX or something like that ?


Ati will be releasing an HD 2600 'Gemini' card soon, with two 2600 GPUs on a single card.

Not sure what Nvidia p[lans to do, I'm hoping for an 8800 GS...


On a side note:
If the 8800 and 2900 cards don't deliver playable gaming for over 2 years from their release, I'll be very surprised.
July 6, 2007 4:30:08 PM

That brings up a good point. The whole point of DX10 was so that drivers, Vista, DX revisions can improve on the playability/ performance and bring about gameplay that is visually better and also smoother. (since dx10 supposedly will perform faster than 9) The early (albeit too early) benchmarks show that this is not so much of a hardware revolution that we have been led to believe. If the performance numbers that we have seen so far are any indication of DX10 performance, than we've all been given the "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" shpiel. Yeah in theory DX10 will be "Faster, better looking, and easier to program" but sometimes theorys are wrong.

Any thoughts?

Edit: forgot my point...

Does anybody know if a game or whatever app that is being used suffers from being DX9 and 10 compatible compared to being only DX10? Does DX10 suffer from any bloating when being utilized in both? I was led to believe that it should outperform previous itterations by default, not as the numbers above show "holy cow we actually got a 2-4 % increase over DX9, look at how amazing that is...".
July 6, 2007 6:07:06 PM

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Not sure what Nvidia plans to do, I'm hoping for an 8800 GS...


I've heard something about an 8800GS a while back before the G84/86 cards hit. If I remember right it was supposed to be 64 or 96 unified shaders on a 256-bit memory bus. If nVIDIA was smart they'd release such a card to make up for the bastardized G84 that can't even keep up with a 7900GS half the time.

Anyways, reasons like this are why I've decided to avoid the first run of DX10 hardware, and have instead bought a 7950GT (and soon buying another), which will be more than adequate for the next year or more, until the next refresh of hardware come along when performance in DirectX 10 justifies the cost of the cards. I can just imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth coming from early adopters when G92 comes around later this year, crushing the 8800GTX/Ultra weeks or months after they bought one.

I've learned my lesson buying 6-series hardware off the bat. Remember how much more powerful the 7800GTX was than the 6800 Ultra? It went to being from a high end card to a mainstream one overnight. I know I was pissed about it.

Unless you gotta have those bragging rights, sometimes it pays to have a little bit of paitence.
July 6, 2007 6:55:31 PM

I agree that first gen buyers of any PC technology more so for people who purchase at launch, are likely to lose out in the long run, and are more like Beta testers thatn anything else, if that's what you're into than you know that goin in. However, it's articles like this one DX10 that justify our purchases only to find out that the reality is that "The future is now" is not true, the future is never now. That's why they call it the future...
July 6, 2007 7:12:12 PM

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Does anybody know if a game or whatever app that is being used suffers from being DX9 and 10 compatible compared to being only DX10? Does DX10 suffer from any bloating when being utilized in both? I was led to believe that it should outperform previous itterations by default, not as the numbers above show "holy cow we actually got a 2-4 % increase over DX9, look at how amazing that is...".


I haven't got my hands on a DX10 card yet kinda waiting or 2nd gens to come out for them, but i can say not all DX9/8 games will play in Vista period, since they changed the way the DirectX is installed into the OS kernel, its made some games incompatible this is also why alot of DX9 games suffer in performance. The driver support from the GPU guys are keeping us playing but we need software patches and a DX9 to DX10 driver to get things rolling smoothly on Vista
July 6, 2007 11:43:42 PM

Well call of juarez is a piece of sh'' game, and lost planet is a console game ported to pc. So no real DX10 game have been tested yet with these card. Lets wait and see what crysis,hellgate london,ut3,bioshock benchmark will bring us.
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