Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

New Computer - Tiny Wallet

Last response: in Systems
Share
July 7, 2007 8:06:58 AM

Greetings-

I am stuck having to make a decision about rebuilding or replacing my current system. With all the new, faster and better parts out there... I am not sure what to think. I use my computer mainly for online research and playing video games... not so much the new demanding games like the FPS and such, just games like Everquest, Everquest 2, Morrowind and older games as well. I am having computer issues that no one can seem to figure out (Game Techs / DEVs , Video Card Techs) so basically all I can do on my computer is read and play Pogo games currently. So I started thinking about wiping my whole computer again and trying to make it work or making a new computer. Which brings me here... to the computer community for advice. This is what I currently have:

ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe
AMD Athlon XP 3200+ Barton
1GB 3200 DDR 400MHz RAM (2-512MB)
GeCube Radeon 9600 Pro 256MB AGP 8x
120GB HD
450W Mad Dog PSU
Win XP SP2

Upgrading seems like an unlikely idea, because I dont understand too much about all the new things in the computer world... and it seems very expensive! From what I understand and forgive me if I am wrong, I am pretty much at the edge of a 32 bit system. I haven't seen any CPU's that are faster, unless I go into the next level of CPU's - 64 bit. Well, I think that would mean a new MB, CPU, Video Card, RAM and OS. Well, seeing how I can't afford to blow $600+ ... this doesn't seem like an option. However, my ignorance may be my downfall in this matter.

So, I come to you seeking advice in the direction I should go. Should I just get a newer AGP card, wipe my computer and deal with what I have or try to make a better system with little money? Thank you for your time and assistance. *cheers*

-Drezzil

More about : computer tiny wallet

July 7, 2007 9:09:36 AM

Unfortunately your best bet is a new system, like you said.

A new graphics card would help with games, but also remember that your cpu is a major bottleneck in this case.

Also, if you buy a new AGP graphics card, you still need to dispose of it when you get a new PC.
July 7, 2007 9:36:38 AM

What would your budget be if you got a new computer?
Related resources
July 7, 2007 10:40:44 AM

heres a relatively inexpensive upgrade you can make, without purchasing a new psu, case, hdd, or optical drive (they can be carried over to your new system)...

ECS GeForce6100SM-M (1.0) Socket AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6100S Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Special AMD & motherboard combo deal, limited time offer
$93.99 for cpu, onboard gpu, and motherboard combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

G.SKILL
G.SKILL 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory - Retail
$54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

the psu you may want to upgrade if it doesnt have sufficient connections, amps, or is just unstable in general... but the above totals $150 + tax & shipping

this way you can also add another GB of ram and a dedicated pcie gpu later on if you wanted to (if you do upgrade to a pcie gpu, youll most likely want a new psu too anyhow)... also, the pcie slot is limited to 8x, and the motherboard im sure isnt designed for heavy OCing, but as long as those are nonissues really, then the motherboard should work fine... ntune may work for OCing however, if the bios doesnt allow much adjusting

edit: the X2 3600+ is oem, so it doesnt come with a hs+f... someone else can probably recommend a decent cpu cooler

also, as far as purchasing a new OS, you might not need to, if you use your current hdd, and just do a repair of the OS with the installation disk, when running with the new hardware installed
July 7, 2007 1:29:26 PM

that's a freakng bargain
easiest HSF to install for AM2 and good value would have to be the coolerMaster hyper tx , it's effective but very tall though. It fits the am2 mounting bracket the same way as the stock HSF with no need to remove anything. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... (which is like $17.00 after rebate ??!!!) otherwise foxconn (well at least that's what's stamped on the AM2 hsf sitting in front of me) made the original HSF for AM2. If shipping o/s from Australia wasn't so damn expensive I'd send it to you. But there's plenty of cheaper HSF (this looks exactly like the AM2 OEM HSF http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...) that are closer to stock but at the price the hyper tx is top notch. See this article http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/09/system_builder_m... (note this for the intel version, it's exactly the same as the AMD version except for the mounting method)

Personally I'd go with 2 gigs of this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
It's just me I'd rather have 2 gigs of average ram that has a little potential to be oc'd than a 1 gig oc/ing monster, especially if I plan on using onboard gfx.

If you have the $ (and IF your PSU can deal wth it) though this maybe overkill http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168... (this a bargain IMO)

But these should be ok as well
http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/07/03/the_best_gaming_...

so for about $150 you're pretty much ready to roll
July 7, 2007 7:43:33 PM

First of all, thank you very much for the kind and helpful responses. I must admit, with all of the given information I am a bit overwhelmed. I guess I need to take a step back and ask some questions so I can understand all of this. I have no knowledge of 64 bit systems, how they work, or the grades of CPUs. I am not a user that OC's anything... simply because I know nothing about it... I am basically a plug and play kinda guy. I have basic computer knowledge, meaning I know how to install software, hardware, drivers and computer maintenance. So, here are a few questions, if I may:

1. If a MB says it supports DDR2 RAM 533/667/800 MHz - does that mean you cant use older RAM in it? Like my 400MHz RAM?

2.What is the difference between AM2, 64FX and X2 CPU's - is it mainly just a matter of the pin patterns or is it like different classes of performance?

3. If I have a 64 bit CPU/MB do I need a 64 bit OS - like windows XP 64 or can I just use regular Windows XP from my older system?

4. Do you need video cards or GPU's to play video games like EverQuest 1 & 2, Morrowind and older video games - or does O/B intergrated graphics work for gaming? Seeing how I am not a power gamer... would I be ok without a GPU / Video Card?

5. Can I use a micro ATX MB in a full size case... or would I need to acquire a new case as well?

Basically, I have a budget around $300 and it would be nice to make a system that is better than what I currently have. If intergrated O/B graphics work better then my currently dying video card ... I guess all I would really need would be RAM, CPU and MB. It would be nice to be able to buy a MB that wouldn't need to be replaced if I decided to upgrade components in the future... like more RAM, adding a GPU or sound card.

I guess thats about it for my questions for now. Thank you again for all the help and assistance. Be well *cheers*

-Drezzil
July 7, 2007 8:13:32 PM

Quote:

1. If a MB says it supports DDR2 RAM 533/667/800 MHz - does that mean you cant use older RAM in it? Like my 400MHz RAM?


That's right. If a board says it supports DDR2 ram and does not mention DDR, it will only support DDR2.

Quote:

2.What is the difference between AM2, 64FX and X2 CPU's - is it mainly just a matter of the pin patterns or is it like different classes of performance?


AM2 is a CPU socket AMD uses, 64FX is a higher class AMD CPU (AMD's version of Intel's Extreme Edition processors), and X2 is AMD's mainstream Dual core processors.

Quote:

3. If I have a 64 bit CPU/MB do I need a 64 bit OS - like windows XP 64 or can I just use regular Windows XP from my older system?


No, you do not need to run a 64 bit operating system on a 64 bit processor. They will still run 32 bit OS'es just fine.

Quote:

4. Do you need video cards or GPU's to play video games like EverQuest 1 & 2, Morrowind and older video games - or does O/B intergrated graphics work for gaming? Seeing how I am not a power gamer... would I be ok without a GPU / Video Card?


Onboard graphics are not really good for anything other than basic gaming (i.e. the games included with Windows). If you really want to play games on your system like Morrowind and EQ, you will need a seperate video card.

Quote:

5. Can I use a micro ATX MB in a full size case... or would I need to acquire a new case as well?


Yes, mATX motherboards will fit in regular sized ATX cases. The only difference is how many mounting holes are used. You can't however, fit a regular sized ATX board in a mATX case.

Here are my suggestions for an upgrade:

CPU: AMD Athlon X2 3800+

Mobo: Asus M2N-E

RAM: OCZ Gold 1GB (2 x 512MB) DDR2-800

Video card: eVGA Geforce 7600GT

Total before taxes and shipping: $320.96
July 7, 2007 9:54:45 PM

Great stuff what the above guy posted, I second that cheap build.

One thing I have to correct him though, or rather add than correct, FX does symbolize another performance class (similar to intel Extreme editions), however that line on the dual core front is blurred on AMD side, because their FX-60 and FX-62 CPUs (dual cores worth about $250-300) are outperformed by their very own Athlon 64 X2 6000+ (On newegg.com is about $190)

Just thought I should clarify that.
July 7, 2007 10:34:55 PM

Quote:
Great stuff what the above guy posted, I second that cheap build.

One thing I have to correct him though, or rather add than correct, FX does symbolize another performance class (similar to intel Extreme editions), however that line on the dual core front is blurred on AMD side, because their FX-60 and FX-62 CPUs (dual cores worth about $250-300) are outperformed by their very own Athlon 64 X2 6000+ (On newegg.com is about $190)

Just thought I should clarify that.


Seems you're correct here. Point taken.
July 7, 2007 10:35:55 PM

Thank you kindly for the responses. All of the information has been greatly appreciated. I have been looking over the suggested products and now with a better understanding of things... the pieces are coming together slowly in my mind.

I have always liked ASUS so I know for sure I am going to go that way if possible. As for the suggested video card... I couldnt help but shiver in fear. I have owned 2 nVidia cards in the past and I never could get them to run... even tech support couldn't get them to run correctly. Perhaps it was just a fluke... but I think I prefer ATi. This little beaten 9600 Pro has been good to me. Adding to me fear of trying something new is the whole PCIe issue... that is completely new to me. Seeing how my current card is very old... it seems anything would be better. If anyone could recommend a nice affordable ATi, the information would be greatly appreciated. As for the CPU, I dont really have much knowledge about how these new 64 bit processors work... but I am assuming the 1.9GHz CPU would be much faster then my current CPU. So perhaps I can lower the cost a little bit more going that route.

The absolute most I could probably spend would be $300 w/ S&H. I am not trying to be cheap or anything... I am just on an extremely tight budget. Thank you again everyone for all the help, advice and knowledge. It is nice to meet such a friendly bunch. Be well *cheers*

-Drezzil
July 7, 2007 11:02:31 PM

SAPPHIRE 100166L Radeon X1650XT 256MB 128-bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP Video Card - Retail

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

That GPU then, I have to admit my personal choice would be the 7600GT, but the X1650XT is ati's counterpart for the 7600GT.
July 7, 2007 11:13:26 PM

For $300 you're almost going to have to settle for onboard video or else get a dirt cheap video card that likely wouldn't be any better. You could easily do an AMD AM2 3800 and possibly a 4200 as well as 2GB of A-DATA RAM then when you have the money get a good video card and you can later upgrade the RAM. If you like ATI and ASUS, here are a couple.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
RAM http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

I have a couple of ASUS M2NV-VM but it's nVidia but a very good board.
July 9, 2007 3:45:09 PM

Why don't you just get the Asrock 4coredualvista board, and a C2D like the E4300. For less then $200 you can be upgraded and still use your vid card and mem until you can afford better. The additional speed of the C2D coupled with your current card should make games at least decently playable until you can afford better.
July 9, 2007 3:45:46 PM

or you could wait a couple more weeks and get an even better proc for the same money.
July 9, 2007 3:51:45 PM


Drezzil said:
Thank you kindly for the responses. All of the information has been greatly appreciated. I have been looking over the suggested products and now with a better understanding of things... the pieces are coming together slowly in my mind.

I have always liked ASUS so I know for sure I am going to go that way if possible. As for the suggested video card... I couldnt help but shiver in fear. I have owned 2 nVidia cards in the past and I never could get them to run... even tech support couldn't get them to run correctly. Perhaps it was just a fluke... but I think I prefer ATi. This little beaten 9600 Pro has been good to me. Adding to me fear of trying something new is the whole PCIe issue... that is completely new to me. Seeing how my current card is very old... it seems anything would be better. If anyone could recommend a nice affordable ATi, the information would be greatly appreciated. As for the CPU, I dont really have much knowledge about how these new 64 bit processors work... but I am assuming the 1.9GHz CPU would be much faster then my current CPU. So perhaps I can lower the cost a little bit more going that route.

The absolute most I could probably spend would be $300 w/ S&H. I am not trying to be cheap or anything... I am just on an extremely tight budget. Thank you again everyone for all the help, advice and knowledge. It is nice to meet such a friendly bunch. Be well *cheers*

-Drezzil


ok... let's try to get you in at about $300 with S/H.
MOBO=http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157107
CPU=http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116037
GPU=http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102035

With this setup, you can use your old ram. Only thing you might need would be a little better power supply. As it still gives you room to upgrade to DDR2 at a later date. The total with shipping comes to $222 minus the $15 mail-in-rebate, for a grand total of $207. That gives you $93 to spend on DDR2 ram or a better power supply.

crim
July 9, 2007 4:40:19 PM

Hello again everyone. Thank you for all of the wonderful replies and support! After giving it alot of thought and thinking about the things I would like to have in my computer, I have decided to try to scrap together a little more money by waiting a little bit longer before I order a system. If I wait a week or so, I should be able to afford a bit more. Now I just need a little help making the decision. The toughest decision has been what MB to go with, but after reading and re-reading the pros/cons and visiting tech support forms for various models... here is what I have come up with. Please have a look and let me know what you think:

ASUS M2N-E SLI Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 500 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+(65W) Windsor 2.0GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

SAPPHIRE 100164DDR2L Radeon X1650PRO 256MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...


I realize it isn't a high-end PC gaming system, but considering what I currently have... I think it would be a major improvement and would have good upgrade potential. I don't really need an SLI board, because I dont ever plan on using two cards at once. As I have stated before, I am not a hard-core gamer playing the newest graphic intense games. The reason I picked this MB would be mainly two reasons - 1. It's ASUS (which is the only board I have ever used and know a little bit about 2. It has two IDE slots (my drives are older and not SATA) . Any suggestions / comments are very welcome. Thank you everyone for your time, knowledge and support. *cheers*

-Drezzil
July 9, 2007 7:39:39 PM

Nice selections.
This should be a nice upgrade for you.

The AM2 motherboards will also support AMDs next Gen chips whenever they arrive.
So if in a year or two you need a bit more power from your CPU, you should have some nice choices.


1730582,16,14308 9 said:
Hello again everyone. Thank you for all of the wonderful replies and support! After giving it alot of thought and thinking about the things I would like to have in my computer, I have decided to try to scrap together a little more money by waiting a little bit longer before I order a system. If I wait a week or so, I should be able to afford a bit more. Now I just need a little help making the decision. The toughest decision has been what MB to go with, but after reading and re-reading the pros/cons and visiting tech support forms for various models... here is what I have come up with. Please have a look and let me know what you think:

ASUS M2N-E SLI Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 500 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Produ ct/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131096

Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ ct.aspx?Item=N82E16820134488

AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+(65W) Windsor 2.0GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor - Retail
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Pr oduct.aspx?Item=N82E16819103068

SAPPH IRE 100164DDR2L Radeon X1650PRO 256MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ ct.aspx?Item=N82E16814102098


I realize it isn't a high-end PC gaming system, but considering what I currently have... I think it would be a major improvement and would have good upgrade potential. I don't really need an SLI board, because I dont ever plan on using two cards at once. As I have stated before, I am not a hard-core gamer playing the newest graphic intense games. The reason I picked this MB would be mainly two reasons - 1. It's ASUS (which is the only board I have ever used and know a little bit about 2. It has two IDE slots (my drives are older and not SATA) . Any suggestions / comments are very welcome. Thank you everyone for your time, knowledge and support. *cheers*

-Drezzil

July 9, 2007 10:02:52 PM

choirbass said:
heres a relatively inexpensive upgrade you can make, without purchasing a new psu, case, hdd, or optical drive (they can be carried over to your new system)...

ECS GeForce6100SM-M (1.0) Socket AM2 NVIDIA GeForce 6100S Micro ATX AMD Motherboard - Retail
Special AMD & motherboard combo deal, limited time offer
$93.99 for cpu, onboard gpu, and motherboard combo
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

G.SKILL
G.SKILL 1GB 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Desktop Memory - Retail
$54.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

the psu you may want to upgrade if it doesnt have sufficient connections, amps, or is just unstable in general... but the above totals $150 + tax & shipping

this way you can also add another GB of ram and a dedicated pcie gpu later on if you wanted to (if you do upgrade to a pcie gpu, youll most likely want a new psu too anyhow)... also, the pcie slot is limited to 8x, and the motherboard im sure isnt designed for heavy OCing, but as long as those are nonissues really, then the motherboard should work fine... ntune may work for OCing however, if the bios doesnt allow much adjusting

edit: the X2 3600+ is oem, so it doesnt come with a hs+f... someone else can probably recommend a decent cpu cooler

also, as far as purchasing a new OS, you might not need to, if you use your current hdd, and just do a repair of the OS with the installation disk, when running with the new hardware installed


If you have access to a Fry's retail store, they usually have amazing bargains for AMD and that ECS board, but they're one day things. Today's is a X2 5600+ and that ECS board for $149. At least the deals come really often so if you miss one, just wait a week and it'll be back.
July 9, 2007 10:56:37 PM

After looking over the card I wanted to get... I noticed yet another thing I dont understand. What is the difference between regular and Pro cards (x1650 and x1650Pro) ? I did a compare on Newegg between some cards but it appears that specs aren't fully listed on the one I was thinking about ordering. Here is the link :

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submi...

x1650 512MB - Core Clock 500MHz, Memory Clock 800 MHz, Memory Size 512MB
x1650Pro 256MB - Core Clock 600MHz, Memory Clock (Nothing), Memory Size 256MB
x1650Pro 512MB - Core Clock 450MHz, Memory Clock 1300MHz, Memory Size 512MB

If the Core Clock is faster, does that make it a better card despite the other having a higher Memory Size? Seeing how the Memory Clock isn't listed on the card I really liked, I am not sure how it compares to the other cards. If someone could explain to me why one card is better than the other, it would be greatly appreciated. Also another concern of mine would be the package contents. Even though the x1650 256MB is marked Retail, it doesn't list anything in the Package Contents. Do you think that is just an error? It would be a shame to order this card and have no manual, drivers, cables. Thank you again for all the help. Be well *cheers*

-Drezzil
July 9, 2007 11:15:07 PM

Increasing the core clock and memory clock speeds is a piece of cake, any new user can do it in about 2-5 minutes. Don't get fooled by memory size, a card like that cannot make use of the 512MB of memory simply because it's not powerful enough, since that memory is only used to store textures and other stuff by games, you'll need a GPU that can process them accordingly. In other words, a midrange card with 512MB so far is only a gimmick (There hasn't been one midrange card with 512MB that can make full use of it properly, that I can recall of anyway.)

Short version: Get the X1650XT 256MB, not X1650Pro, the few dollars that you'll save will not be worth it.
July 9, 2007 11:42:38 PM

Why are you buying a motherboard with SLI (sticking 2 vid cards together which costs $20-$30 more) capabilities which from the sounds of it you'll never use for playing WoW or EQ?

this
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
or

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...

and spend the change on a 7900gs or an x1950 pro, which smokes those cards.

Most x1650xt are about $100USD on newegg.

You can pickup a 7900gs for $124 (104 with rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
an x1950 pro for $137 (117 after rebate)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
July 10, 2007 4:20:33 AM

which ever one you decide on DO NOT GET OPEN BOX. Is all it will come with is the motherboard, no cables, disc, manual, anything but mobo. That is fine if your doing a minimal upgrade, but from the sounds of it you will need all the extra stuff that comes in the boxed versions. Unless you feel I am wrong and you could get by without all of it. Then by all means save the cash and get the open box.
July 10, 2007 8:10:39 AM

Don't know man, SATA cables are cheap like $5.00 max, and you only get 1 power one data in most mobo's. if he plans to use existing HDD and DVD burner those cables (either IDE if they're both IDE or SATA) could be reused. Manual, driver and Bios updates are all available on the Asus website. I mean IMHO it's good way to save $20-$30. But that's just me being the cheap bastard I am.
Oh and this looks good value
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E168...
coupled with the intel price drops next week.
July 11, 2007 12:27:31 AM

Thank you for the replies everyone. I am seeking one more bit of advice, if I may. It has been mentioned that I may need a new power supply as well. I have only had this PSU for 1.5 years and it is guaranteed for 5yrs. So I guess it is just a matter of - is my PSU strong enough for my new build? Here is what I plan on putting in it altogether:

120 GB Hard Drive
DVD/CD-RW
DVD/RW
Floppy
Kingston 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit
ASUS M2N-E SLI Socket AM2 NVIDIA nForce 500 SLI MCP ATX AMD Motherboard
AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+(65W) Windsor 2.0GHz 2 x 512KB L2 Cache Socket AM2 Processor - Retail
SAPPHIRE 100164DDR2L Radeon X1650PRO 256MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16
Sound Blaster Live Sound Card
2 case fans (not sure on size... the standard size ones)
1 Exhaust Fan/Blower 80mm

Here is a link to my current PSU : http://www.mdmm.com/spec.php?productid=113

If this isn't enough power, how big of one should I get? Also, what is Dual +12v? Is that something I need to get as well? Thank you again everyone for being so supportive and helpful *cheers*

-Drezzil
July 11, 2007 2:09:09 AM

OK, I guess I am completely confused now. The MB has a 24-pin ATX power connector (not 20-pin like my current MB) and an additional 4-pin CPU Power connector. What plugs into the 4-pin CPU power connector? I looked at the images of the heatsink/fan ... and it is a 3-pin plug.
July 11, 2007 3:17:41 AM

Don't get a Mad Dog, please stay far away from OfficeMax. Please. Go with a respectable power supply like FSP, Antec, ThermalTake, etc.

Almost all new motherboards will have the 24-pin connection plus an additional 4 pin for 12v. I think the 12v is right, someone correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, the power supply will come w/ a 24-pin and an additional 4-pin along with the rails w/ molex connectors. The motherboard, like stated earlier, will have both a 24-pin connection and a 4-pin which is usually just to the upper left of the where the processor will be. Usually, but I've seen them in different positions...
!