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HDTV / Pioneer PRO-610HD / Newbie Question

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March 12, 2005 8:18:20 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Is the TV or NBC?

I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving at
the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the first time
in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to be just a bit
off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots. I switched over
to the other input to watch the signal coming from my SD tivo. Low and
behold the HD picture was having severe vertical minor horizontal problems.
Where the SD version had a few "inches" between the actors heads and the top
of the frame the HD version was cut off right at the tops of their heads.
There was a small amount of cropping on the sides.

So... how to determine if it's the TV or the feed? Any guidance would be
greatly appreciated...
Dan
March 12, 2005 12:35:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

You left out one essential element - the hdtv tuner. What are you using?
How is it connected? How is its output configured?
Another alternative to test other HD broadcasts on other stations the same
way... If you don't see the flaws on a CBS HD broadcast, then you know it
was NBC. Check out the HD basketball this weekend as a good testing
resource.

"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Is the TV or NBC?
>
> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving at
> the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the first time
> in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to be just a bit
> off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots. I switched over
> to the other input to watch the signal coming from my SD tivo. Low and
> behold the HD picture was having severe vertical minor horizontal
> problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches" between the actors heads
> and the top of the frame the HD version was cut off right at the tops of
> their heads. There was a small amount of cropping on the sides.
>
> So... how to determine if it's the TV or the feed? Any guidance would be
> greatly appreciated...
> Dan
>
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 1:22:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Is the TV or NBC?
>
> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving at
> the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the first time
> in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to be just a bit
> off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots. I switched over
> to the other input to watch the signal coming from my SD tivo. Low and
> behold the HD picture was having severe vertical minor horizontal
> problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches" between the actors heads
> and the top of the frame the HD version was cut off right at the tops of
> their heads. There was a small amount of cropping on the sides.

How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
ratio modes where you in for this comparison.

I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing your
television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you might have
had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer Elite in ZOOM
mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your tuner should be told
that you have a 16:9 television and your television should be in full mode
when watching output from your properly set tuner.

Charles Tomaras
Seattle, WA
Related resources
March 12, 2005 10:11:21 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
information...

TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD

Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
Connection between the two is component video
Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode (same
prob in 420p FULL)

Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
Connection is s-video
Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM

Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although Josh's
head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)

From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched equally)
the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar but unmeasured
amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen position to -8 to see the
top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom. The aspect ratio appears good in
this mode.

(This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing, ER,
and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)

From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly more
than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the frame
compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm loosing just
off the top of the frame.

As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I wrote
the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some minor
vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like on West
Wing though.

Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed shows
in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without thinking about
it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I can/should do?

Thanks again,
Dan

"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>
> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>
>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving
>> at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the first
>> time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to be just
>> a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots. I
>> switched over to the other input to watch the signal coming from my SD
>> tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having severe vertical minor
>> horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches" between the
>> actors heads and the top of the frame the HD version was cut off right at
>> the tops of their heads. There was a small amount of cropping on the
>> sides.
>
> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
> people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
> ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>
> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing
> your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you
> might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer
> Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your tuner
> should be told that you have a 16:9 television and your television should
> be in full mode when watching output from your properly set tuner.
>
> Charles Tomaras
> Seattle, WA
>
>
Anonymous
March 12, 2005 10:11:22 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
> information...
>
> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>
> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
> Connection between the two is component video
> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode (same
> prob in 420p FULL)
>
> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
> Connection is s-video
> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>
> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>
> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched equally)
> the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar but
> unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen position
> to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom. The aspect
> ratio appears good in this mode.
>
> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing, ER,
> and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)
>
> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the frame
> compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm loosing
> just off the top of the frame.
>
> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like on
> West Wing though.
>
> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
> can/should do?

Did you by chance RECORD West Wing on your HD Tivo? If so, why don't you
just screw around a bit and try every permutation of aspect ratio that your
your Tivo and Television will allow and see if it makes sense somehow.
March 12, 2005 11:16:52 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

The Pioneer will ONLY show 480p (not 420!) & 1080i in its FULL mode. All
other "screen modes" are locked out. So you can't do a "zoom" or "cinema
wide" version of either of those signals.

The HD tivo should only be used in normal for HD viewing. No reason to
"zoom" an HD picture.

West wing transmits a 16:9 picture EVEN on a SD station. It will have black
borders top and bottom THIS IS NOT STANDARD PRACTICE.

In other words, West Wing is the exception, not the rule. Watch west wing
on a HD station, and the black borders disappear on your 16:9 tv.
I never watch ER, but I think it might be the same deal.

In short, I think your concerns are the fault of the station/network...not
your set or your tivo. Next time you want to compare, do it on a CBS HD/SD
program....they don't use these flakey pseudo 16:9 formats on their SD
programming.




"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
> information...
>
> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>
> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
> Connection between the two is component video
> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode (same
> prob in 420p FULL)
>
> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
> Connection is s-video
> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>
> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>
> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched equally)
> the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar but
> unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen position
> to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom. The aspect
> ratio appears good in this mode.
>
> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing, ER,
> and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)
>
> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the frame
> compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm loosing
> just off the top of the frame.
>
> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like on
> West Wing though.
>
> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
> can/should do?
>
> Thanks again,
> Dan
>
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>
>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving
>>> at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the first
>>> time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to be just
>>> a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots. I
>>> switched over to the other input to watch the signal coming from my SD
>>> tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having severe vertical minor
>>> horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches" between the
>>> actors heads and the top of the frame the HD version was cut off right
>>> at the tops of their heads. There was a small amount of cropping on the
>>> sides.
>>
>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
>> people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
>> ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>
>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing
>> your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you
>> might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer
>> Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your
>> tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television and your television
>> should be in full mode when watching output from your properly set tuner.
>>
>> Charles Tomaras
>> Seattle, WA
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 1:27:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
news:FqMYd.24435$6g7.19004@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> The Pioneer will ONLY show 480p (not 420!) & 1080i in its FULL mode. All
> other "screen modes" are locked out. So you can't do a "zoom" or "cinema
> wide" version of either of those signals.
>
> The HD tivo should only be used in normal for HD viewing. No reason to
> "zoom" an HD picture.
>
> West wing transmits a 16:9 picture EVEN on a SD station. It will have
> black borders top and bottom THIS IS NOT STANDARD PRACTICE.
>
> In other words, West Wing is the exception, not the rule. Watch west wing
> on a HD station, and the black borders disappear on your 16:9 tv.
> I never watch ER, but I think it might be the same deal.
>
> In short, I think your concerns are the fault of the station/network...not
> your set or your tivo. Next time you want to compare, do it on a CBS
> HD/SD program....they don't use these flakey pseudo 16:9 formats on their
> SD programming.

What is flakey or psuedo about broadcasting a program shot in 16:9
letterboxed to it's intended original aspect ratio? What's flakey is people
expecting a program's aspect ratios to be reformatted to fit their
television.

>
>
>
>
> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
>> information...
>>
>> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>>
>> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
>> Connection between the two is component video
>> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode
>> (same prob in 420p FULL)
>>
>> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
>> Connection is s-video
>> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
>> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>>
>> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
>> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>>
>> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched
>> equally) the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar
>> but unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen
>> position to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom. The
>> aspect ratio appears good in this mode.
>>
>> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing,
>> ER, and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)
>>
>> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
>> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the frame
>> compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm loosing
>> just off the top of the frame.
>>
>> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
>> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
>> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like
>> on West Wing though.
>>
>> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
>> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
>> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
>> can/should do?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Dan
>>
>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>>
>>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving
>>>> at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the
>>>> first time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to
>>>> be just a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots.
>>>> I switched over to the other input to watch the signal coming from my
>>>> SD tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having severe vertical
>>>> minor horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches"
>>>> between the actors heads and the top of the frame the HD version was
>>>> cut off right at the tops of their heads. There was a small amount of
>>>> cropping on the sides.
>>>
>>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
>>> people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
>>> ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>>
>>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing
>>> your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you
>>> might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer
>>> Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your
>>> tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television and your television
>>> should be in full mode when watching output from your properly set
>>> tuner.
>>>
>>> Charles Tomaras
>>> Seattle, WA
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
March 13, 2005 8:09:16 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
news:FqMYd.24435$6g7.19004@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> The Pioneer will ONLY show 480p (not 420!) & 1080i in its FULL mode. All
> other "screen modes" are locked out. So you can't do a "zoom" or "cinema
> wide" version of either of those signals.
>
> The HD tivo should only be used in normal for HD viewing. No reason to
> "zoom" an HD picture.
>
> West wing transmits a 16:9 picture EVEN on a SD station. It will have
> black borders top and bottom THIS IS NOT STANDARD PRACTICE.
>
> In other words, West Wing is the exception, not the rule. Watch west wing
> on a HD station, and the black borders disappear on your 16:9 tv.
> I never watch ER, but I think it might be the same deal.
>
> In short, I think your concerns are the fault of the station/network...not
> your set or your tivo. Next time you want to compare, do it on a CBS
> HD/SD program....they don't use these flakey pseudo 16:9 formats on their
> SD programming.
>
>
>
>
> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
>> information...
>>
>> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>>
>> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
>> Connection between the two is component video
>> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode
>> (same prob in 420p FULL)
>>
>> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
>> Connection is s-video
>> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
>> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>>
>> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
>> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>>
>> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched
>> equally) the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar
>> but unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen
>> position to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom. The
>> aspect ratio appears good in this mode.
>>
>> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing,
>> ER, and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)
>>
>> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
>> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the frame
>> compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm loosing
>> just off the top of the frame.
>>
>> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
>> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
>> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like
>> on West Wing though.
>>
>> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
>> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
>> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
>> can/should do?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> Dan
>>
>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>>
>>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just arriving
>>>> at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing for the
>>>> first time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing appeared to
>>>> be just a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any of the shots.
>>>> I switched over to the other input to watch the signal coming from my
>>>> SD tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having severe vertical
>>>> minor horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a few "inches"
>>>> between the actors heads and the top of the frame the HD version was
>>>> cut off right at the tops of their heads. There was a small amount of
>>>> cropping on the sides.
>>>
>>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
>>> people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
>>> ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>>
>>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing
>>> your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you
>>> might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer
>>> Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your
>>> tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television and your television
>>> should be in full mode when watching output from your properly set
>>> tuner.
>>>
>>> Charles Tomaras
>>> Seattle, WA
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

> The Pioneer will ONLY show 480p (not 420!) & 1080i in its FULL mode. All
> other "screen modes" are locked out. So you can't do a "zoom" or "cinema
> wide" version of either of those signals.

Yes, I know. I am zooming the SD version of WW (recorded on a SD Tivo) and
comparing that to HD version that was recorded on the HD Tivo.

> The HD tivo should only be used in normal for HD viewing. No reason to
> "zoom" an HD picture.

Right, in fact I can't zoom an HD picture.

> West wing transmits a 16:9 picture EVEN on a SD station. It will have
> black borders top and bottom THIS IS NOT STANDARD PRACTICE.

Right.

> In other words, West Wing is the exception, not the rule. Watch west wing
> on a HD station, and the black borders disappear on your 16:9 tv.
> I never watch ER, but I think it might be the same deal.

Yes but the HD version looses 2 1/2" off the top and bottom of the frame
compared to the SD version. For example on the SD version I can see the
tops of people heads and space above them. In HD the top of their heads are
cut off.

> In short, I think your concerns are the fault of the station/network...not
> your set or your tivo. Next time you want to compare, do it on a CBS
> HD/SD program....they don't use these flakey pseudo 16:9 formats on their
> SD programming.

I'm just wondering if my set is 'zooming' in on HD content. Would this be
the visible symptom of overscan?

Anyone else seeing this type of cropping on these fake 16:9 shows when
watching them in HD?
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:09:17 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:0WPYd.17249>
> Anyone else seeing this type of cropping on these fake 16:9 shows when
> watching them in HD?


West Wing is not a "fake" 16:9 show. It's been shot in widescreen 1.78:1
since the year 2000.
see: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0200276/technical
March 13, 2005 10:59:34 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Everyone, a sincere thank you for your help and patience. I wish I
understood more about this than I do.

My takeaway from this is...
- West Wing is shot in 16:9
- One would hope that NBC letterboxes it into 16:9 for the 4:3 SD broadcast
- When watching the SD version on a 16:9 TV with the picture "zoomed"
(equally stretched in all directions)
no part of the image should be cropped
- When watching the HD version of the same 16:9 program it should be
identical (except in aesthetics) to the zoomed
SD version.

What I am seeing is...
- When viewing WW SD in zoomed mode I loose 1.5 inches (as measured on my
TV) off the top. That is, the top
of the image is virtually 1.5 inches above the top of my TV. I can change
the vertical alignment of the picture and
measure from the real top of the image to where the top is when the
picture is centered. Similar problems on the
bottom too.
- When viewing WW HD I loose an additional 1 inch off the top. That is, the
top of the image is virtually 2.5 inches
above the top of my TV.

Assuming that neither NBC nor the HD DirecTivo are to blame the only other
possibilities are
- My TV is seriously miscalibrated
- My TV isn't truly 16:9
- I'm still missing something

Hopefully it's 1 or 3 since they're something I can change.

Again - thank you all,
Dan


"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:yqadnTl9S_2IQa7fRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>
> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:0WPYd.17249>
>> Anyone else seeing this type of cropping on these fake 16:9 shows when
>> watching them in HD?
>
>
> West Wing is not a "fake" 16:9 show. It's been shot in widescreen 1.78:1
> since the year 2000.
> see: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0200276/technical
>
>
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:55:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:59:34 GMT, "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>Everyone, a sincere thank you for your help and patience. I wish I
>understood more about this than I do.
>
>My takeaway from this is...
>- West Wing is shot in 16:9
>- One would hope that NBC letterboxes it into 16:9 for the 4:3 SD broadcast
>- When watching the SD version on a 16:9 TV with the picture "zoomed"
>(equally stretched in all directions)
> no part of the image should be cropped
>- When watching the HD version of the same 16:9 program it should be
>identical (except in aesthetics) to the zoomed
> SD version.
>
>What I am seeing is...
>- When viewing WW SD in zoomed mode I loose 1.5 inches (as measured on my
>TV) off the top. That is, the top
> of the image is virtually 1.5 inches above the top of my TV. I can change
>the vertical alignment of the picture and
> measure from the real top of the image to where the top is when the
>picture is centered. Similar problems on the
> bottom too.
>- When viewing WW HD I loose an additional 1 inch off the top. That is, the
>top of the image is virtually 2.5 inches

Can you display the same line 2.5 inch up (by the alignment) or is it
cropped at about 1.5 inch?

> above the top of my TV.
>
>Assuming that neither NBC nor the HD DirecTivo are to blame the only other
>possibilities are
>- My TV is seriously miscalibrated

The question above can give the answer if your TV overscans more than
necessary (usually around 5% counting both sides).

>- My TV isn't truly 16:9

Measure the viewing area.

>- I'm still missing something
>
>Hopefully it's 1 or 3 since they're something I can change.

I'm not familiar with your TV but

>Again - thank you all,
>Dan
>
>
>"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>news:yqadnTl9S_2IQa7fRVn-hQ@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:0WPYd.17249>
>>> Anyone else seeing this type of cropping on these fake 16:9 shows when
>>> watching them in HD?
>>
>>
>> West Wing is not a "fake" 16:9 show. It's been shot in widescreen 1.78:1
>> since the year 2000.
>> see: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0200276/technical
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 3:59:08 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 07:59:34 GMT, "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net>
wrote:

>Everyone, a sincere thank you for your help and patience. I wish I
>understood more about this than I do.
>
>My takeaway from this is...
>- West Wing is shot in 16:9
>- One would hope that NBC letterboxes it into 16:9 for the 4:3 SD broadcast
>- When watching the SD version on a 16:9 TV with the picture "zoomed"
>(equally stretched in all directions)
> no part of the image should be cropped
>- When watching the HD version of the same 16:9 program it should be
>identical (except in aesthetics) to the zoomed
> SD version.
>
>What I am seeing is...
>- When viewing WW SD in zoomed mode I loose 1.5 inches (as measured on my
>TV) off the top. That is, the top
> of the image is virtually 1.5 inches above the top of my TV. I can change
>the vertical alignment of the picture and
> measure from the real top of the image to where the top is when the
>picture is centered. Similar problems on the
> bottom too.
>- When viewing WW HD I loose an additional 1 inch off the top. That is, the
>top of the image is virtually 2.5 inches

Can you display the same line 2.5 inch up (by the alignment) or is it
cropped at about 1.5 inch?

> above the top of my TV.
>
>Assuming that neither NBC nor the HD DirecTivo are to blame the only other
>possibilities are
>- My TV is seriously miscalibrated

The question above can give the answer if your TV overscans more than
necessary (usually around 5% counting both sides).

>- My TV isn't truly 16:9

Measure the viewing area.

>- I'm still missing something
>
>Hopefully it's 1 or 3 since they're something I can change.

/Jan
March 15, 2005 2:54:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

You're right of course. Bad choice of words. But NBC is the only network I
know of to broadcast a SD version of an HD show in 16:9. Everyone else
simulcasts a 4:3 version. It's fake in the sense that they're trying to
give an HD look and feel to an SD broadcast. I've had numerous occasions of
the local station sending the SD version out over their digital channel
....and then the damn thing is bordered on 4 sides by black borders!


"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:kcydnbmhq-j8QK7fRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
>
> What is flakey or psuedo about broadcasting a program shot in 16:9
> letterboxed to it's intended original aspect ratio? What's flakey is
> people expecting a program's aspect ratios to be reformatted to fit their
> television.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>> news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
>>> information...
>>>
>>> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>>>
>>> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
>>> Connection between the two is component video
>>> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode
>>> (same prob in 420p FULL)
>>>
>>> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
>>> Connection is s-video
>>> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
>>> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>>>
>>> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
>>> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>>>
>>> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched
>>> equally) the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar
>>> but unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen
>>> position to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom.
>>> The aspect ratio appears good in this mode.
>>>
>>> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing,
>>> ER, and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly 16:9?)
>>>
>>> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
>>> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the
>>> frame compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm
>>> loosing just off the top of the frame.
>>>
>>> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
>>> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
>>> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like
>>> on West Wing though.
>>>
>>> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
>>> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
>>> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
>>> can/should do?
>>>
>>> Thanks again,
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just
>>>>> arriving at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing
>>>>> for the first time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing
>>>>> appeared to be just a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any
>>>>> of the shots. I switched over to the other input to watch the signal
>>>>> coming from my SD tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having
>>>>> severe vertical minor horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a
>>>>> few "inches" between the actors heads and the top of the frame the HD
>>>>> version was cut off right at the tops of their heads. There was a
>>>>> small amount of cropping on the sides.
>>>>
>>>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version? Did
>>>> people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What aspect
>>>> ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>>>
>>>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>>>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you listing
>>>> your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds like you
>>>> might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and your Pioneer
>>>> Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your settings. Your
>>>> tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television and your
>>>> television should be in full mode when watching output from your
>>>> properly set tuner.
>>>>
>>>> Charles Tomaras
>>>> Seattle, WA
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
March 16, 2005 2:48:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
news:7oEZd.28978$c72.13694@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
> You're right of course. Bad choice of words. But NBC is the only network
> I know of to broadcast a SD version of an HD show in 16:9. Everyone else
> simulcasts a 4:3 version. It's fake in the sense that they're trying to
> give an HD look and feel to an SD broadcast. I've had numerous occasions
> of the local station sending the SD version out over their digital channel
> ...and then the damn thing is bordered on 4 sides by black borders!


What program is that? I'm not aware of anything like that on my local
affiliate (KING TV Seattle).




>
>
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
> news:kcydnbmhq-j8QK7fRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
>>
>> What is flakey or psuedo about broadcasting a program shot in 16:9
>> letterboxed to it's intended original aspect ratio? What's flakey is
>> people expecting a program's aspect ratios to be reformatted to fit their
>> television.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>> news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
>>>> information...
>>>>
>>>> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>>>>
>>>> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
>>>> Connection between the two is component video
>>>> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode
>>>> (same prob in 420p FULL)
>>>>
>>>> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
>>>> Connection is s-video
>>>> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
>>>> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>>>>
>>>> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
>>>> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>>>>
>>>> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched
>>>> equally) the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar
>>>> but unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen
>>>> position to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom.
>>>> The aspect ratio appears good in this mode.
>>>>
>>>> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing,
>>>> ER, and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly
>>>> 16:9?)
>>>>
>>>> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
>>>> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the
>>>> frame compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm
>>>> loosing just off the top of the frame.
>>>>
>>>> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
>>>> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was some
>>>> minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom), nothing like
>>>> on West Wing though.
>>>>
>>>> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
>>>> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
>>>> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
>>>> can/should do?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again,
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just
>>>>>> arriving at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing
>>>>>> for the first time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing
>>>>>> appeared to be just a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in any
>>>>>> of the shots. I switched over to the other input to watch the signal
>>>>>> coming from my SD tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was having
>>>>>> severe vertical minor horizontal problems. Where the SD version had a
>>>>>> few "inches" between the actors heads and the top of the frame the HD
>>>>>> version was cut off right at the tops of their heads. There was a
>>>>>> small amount of cropping on the sides.
>>>>>
>>>>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version?
>>>>> Did people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What
>>>>> aspect ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>>>>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you
>>>>> listing your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds
>>>>> like you might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and
>>>>> your Pioneer Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your
>>>>> settings. Your tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television
>>>>> and your television should be in full mode when watching output from
>>>>> your properly set tuner.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charles Tomaras
>>>>> Seattle, WA
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
March 18, 2005 6:44:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
news:CL-dnfdvN4dYearfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
>
> "curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
> news:7oEZd.28978$c72.13694@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>> You're right of course. Bad choice of words. But NBC is the only
>> network I know of to broadcast a SD version of an HD show in 16:9.
>> Everyone else simulcasts a 4:3 version. It's fake in the sense that
>> they're trying to give an HD look and feel to an SD broadcast. I've had
>> numerous occasions of the local station sending the SD version out over
>> their digital channel ...and then the damn thing is bordered on 4 sides
>> by black borders!
>
>
> What program is that? I'm not aware of anything like that on my local
> affiliate (KING TV Seattle).
>
>

The local UPN digital station broadcasts Star Trek Enterprise that way here
in the
Bay Area. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry the first time I saw it.
What a
joke. So I can watch a fuzzier zoomed SD version or the only slighly
clearer
but much smaller 4:3 HD version and risk border burn-in. Sigh.


>
>
>>
>>
>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>> news:kcydnbmhq-j8QK7fRVn-vQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> What is flakey or psuedo about broadcasting a program shot in 16:9
>>> letterboxed to it's intended original aspect ratio? What's flakey is
>>> people expecting a program's aspect ratios to be reformatted to fit
>>> their television.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:t9HYd.17587$Pz7.3089@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>> Obviously I missed the thin line between not enough and too much
>>>>> information...
>>>>>
>>>>> TV as I mentioned is a Pioneer Eliete PRO-610HD
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuner 1 is an HD DirecTivo HR10-250
>>>>> Connection between the two is component video
>>>>> Source was OTA KNTV 11.1, the Tivo was set to 1080i, TV in FULL mode
>>>>> (same prob in 420p FULL)
>>>>>
>>>>> Tuner 2 is a SD DirecTvo (Sony T-60?)
>>>>> Connection is s-video
>>>>> Source was KNTV 11 DirecTV feed.
>>>>> Modes: NORMAL & ZOOM
>>>>>
>>>>> Aspect ratio looked pretty good from all sources & modes. (Although
>>>>> Josh's head seems a bit long and skinny in both SD and HD.)
>>>>>
>>>>> From the SD Tivo in ZOOM mode of the tv (width & height stretched
>>>>> equally) the picture is cropped about 1.5" from the top (and a similar
>>>>> but unmeasured amount from the bottom). I have to set the screen
>>>>> position to -8 to see the top of the frame and +6 to see the bottom.
>>>>> The aspect ratio appears good in this mode.
>>>>>
>>>>> (This has always been the case with this TV with shows like West Wing,
>>>>> ER, and Enterprise. Are these shows truly 16:9? Is the TV truly
>>>>> 16:9?)
>>>>>
>>>>> From the HD Tivo in 1080i (and 420p) the pictures are cropped slightly
>>>>> more than that. I'm loosing about 1" off the top and bottom of the
>>>>> frame compared with 480i zoomed mode. In total that is 2.5" that I'm
>>>>> loosing just off the top of the frame.
>>>>>
>>>>> As an aside I did the same comparison with Joey (yea, I know) after I
>>>>> wrote the first post. The aspect ratio looked spot-on. There was
>>>>> some minor vertical cropping (about 1/2" off the top & bottom),
>>>>> nothing like on West Wing though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this normal? I've learned to live with the cropping of letterboxed
>>>>> shows in SD but didn't expect even more cropping with HD. Without
>>>>> thinking about it much, I expected less cropping. Is there anything I
>>>>> can/should do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again,
>>>>> Dan
>>>>>
>>>>> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ELydnXQHxrTWrq7fRVn-gA@comcast.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:wYuYd.8398$C47.1173@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>>>>>>> Is the TV or NBC?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've had the Pioneer set for quite a few years now but am just
>>>>>>> arriving at the HD party. The other night I was watching West Wing
>>>>>>> for the first time in HD (KNTV 11.1 in the Bay Area). The framing
>>>>>>> appeared to be just a bit off - the there wasn't much headroom in
>>>>>>> any of the shots. I switched over to the other input to watch the
>>>>>>> signal coming from my SD tivo. Low and behold the HD picture was
>>>>>>> having severe vertical minor horizontal problems. Where the SD
>>>>>>> version had a few "inches" between the actors heads and the top of
>>>>>>> the frame the HD version was cut off right at the tops of their
>>>>>>> heads. There was a small amount of cropping on the sides.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How did the aspect ratio look in the HD version and the SD version?
>>>>>> Did people appear anatomically correct or was there distortion? What
>>>>>> aspect ratio modes where you in for this comparison.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe on the Pioneer Elite series you should be in FULL mode when
>>>>>> watching the HD source. Difficult to fully diagnose without you
>>>>>> listing your television mode, tuner and tuner mode etc, but it sounds
>>>>>> like you might have had your HD tuner set for a 4:3 television and
>>>>>> your Pioneer Elite in ZOOM mode. Go through and check out all your
>>>>>> settings. Your tuner should be told that you have a 16:9 television
>>>>>> and your television should be in full mode when watching output from
>>>>>> your properly set tuner.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charles Tomaras
>>>>>> Seattle, WA
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
Anonymous
March 18, 2005 6:44:33 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Dan" <d-nospam-wilks@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:zHC_d.11645$C47.6277@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
>
> "Charles Tomaras" <tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote in message
> news:CL-dnfdvN4dYearfRVn-tQ@comcast.com...
>>
>> "curmudgeon" <curmudgeon@buzzoff.net> wrote in message
>> news:7oEZd.28978$c72.13694@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
>>> You're right of course. Bad choice of words. But NBC is the only
>>> network I know of to broadcast a SD version of an HD show in 16:9.
>>> Everyone else simulcasts a 4:3 version. It's fake in the sense that
>>> they're trying to give an HD look and feel to an SD broadcast. I've had
>>> numerous occasions of the local station sending the SD version out over
>>> their digital channel ...and then the damn thing is bordered on 4 sides
>>> by black borders!
>>
>>
>> What program is that? I'm not aware of anything like that on my local
>> affiliate (KING TV Seattle).
>>
>>
>
> The local UPN digital station broadcasts Star Trek Enterprise that way
> here in the
> Bay Area. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry the first time I saw it.
> What a
> joke. So I can watch a fuzzier zoomed SD version or the only slighly
> clearer
> but much smaller 4:3 HD version and risk border burn-in. Sigh.

Well...at least this will no longer be a problem as Star Trek has been
cancelled! :( 
March 21, 2005 12:19:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:44:54 -0800, "Charles Tomaras"
<tomaras@tomaras.com> wrote:


>>
>> The local UPN digital station broadcasts Star Trek Enterprise that way
>> here in the
>> Bay Area. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry the first time I saw it.
>> What a
>> joke. So I can watch a fuzzier zoomed SD version or the only slighly
>> clearer
>> but much smaller 4:3 HD version and risk border burn-in. Sigh.
>
>Well...at least this will no longer be a problem as Star Trek has been
>cancelled! :( 
>

The replacement series will probably be broadcast the same way.
!