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D-VHS: What gives, Why isn't it everywhere HD is sold?

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March 13, 2005 2:42:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?

The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
frequently crash & need to be reformatted.

The buzz over Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, also useless as these are players
only, with recorders probably 2-3 yrs down the road. I never even
considered a DVD player till the DVD recorders arrived.

A quick pass through of the local Best Buy, Circuit City & American TV
recently found no D-VHS players currently in stock & most sales staff
enitirely in the dark, not even knowing they exist. A year ago all of
them had some on the shelves.

About the only trick one needs to know, is that since the firewire
connection, needed for HD recording, can not be selected for timer
recordings, (timeshifting), one needs to run out to Radio Shack & buy
a VCR programming remote for 10 bucks & away you go.

Are all the owners of HD sets & receivers, content to have limited or
no recording options, & content to having to be there when you show or
movie is on. And are people who've spent 1500 to thousands on the sets
that unwilling to spend 250-500 for a recorder? Or perhaps like the
clueless salesmen you don't even know this option exists?

More about : vhs sold

Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:33:11 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 11:42:09 GMT, Nightwing
<NightWing@lunaticfringe.com> wrote:

>Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
>HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
>favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
>The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
>start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
>frequently crash & need to be reformatted.
>
>The buzz over Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, also useless as these are players
>only, with recorders probably 2-3 yrs down the road. I never even
>considered a DVD player till the DVD recorders arrived.
>
>A quick pass through of the local Best Buy, Circuit City & American TV
>recently found no D-VHS players currently in stock & most sales staff
>enitirely in the dark, not even knowing they exist. A year ago all of
>them had some on the shelves.
>
>About the only trick one needs to know, is that since the firewire
>connection, needed for HD recording, can not be selected for timer
>recordings, (timeshifting), one needs to run out to Radio Shack & buy
>a VCR programming remote for 10 bucks & away you go.
>
>Are all the owners of HD sets & receivers, content to have limited or
>no recording options, & content to having to be there when you show or
>movie is on. And are people who've spent 1500 to thousands on the sets
>that unwilling to spend 250-500 for a recorder? Or perhaps like the
>clueless salesmen you don't even know this option exists?

Check out 6th Ave. They have them on line. I will check a store next
time I'm in NJ.
I have a SA4200HD and after a few phone calls and a super installer
from Cablevision, I have a fire wire out along with dvi, component,
etc. Problem is I don't know if it works. Plus I need Honey"s OK to
lay out $450 for a JVC-HM-DH5U at Vann's.
Also, you need two SA4200HD. If you use dvi out then all the analog
ports do not function. Then you can't watch and record at the same
time. I can not use the words on this group to describe how I feel
about HDMI/HDCP and Jack Valenti.(sp)
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 8:55:41 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

A major reason I hesitate to buy a D-VHS deck is that JVC provides the
majority of those available. I have had several JVC SVHS decks and have
been disappointed in their reliability. A Google search will reveal plenty
of tales about the notorious JVC reliability and service for all their
products. The first D-VHS model from JVC was especially problematic (hence
the number of "factory refurbished" units available).
"Nightwing" <NightWing@lunaticfringe.com> wrote in message
news:1188315s4eoitflc9m2hl5cihnaribc204@4ax.com...
> Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
> HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
> favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
> The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
> start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
> frequently crash & need to be reformatted.
>
> The buzz over Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, also useless as these are players
> only, with recorders probably 2-3 yrs down the road. I never even
> considered a DVD player till the DVD recorders arrived.
>
> A quick pass through of the local Best Buy, Circuit City & American TV
> recently found no D-VHS players currently in stock & most sales staff
> enitirely in the dark, not even knowing they exist. A year ago all of
> them had some on the shelves.
>
> About the only trick one needs to know, is that since the firewire
> connection, needed for HD recording, can not be selected for timer
> recordings, (timeshifting), one needs to run out to Radio Shack & buy
> a VCR programming remote for 10 bucks & away you go.
>
> Are all the owners of HD sets & receivers, content to have limited or
> no recording options, & content to having to be there when you show or
> movie is on. And are people who've spent 1500 to thousands on the sets
> that unwilling to spend 250-500 for a recorder? Or perhaps like the
> clueless salesmen you don't even know this option exists?
Related resources
Anonymous
March 13, 2005 9:24:06 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I'm sure JVC is wondering the same thing :) . You ask why D-VHS isn't
everywhere and the answer comes down to merchendiing decisions based on
research. The items you see for sale in Best Buy, Sears, Walmart,
etc... aren't there by chance. Retailers will test products in select
markets, but once something fails it's gone until they have a
compelling reason to bring it back. There's not enough floor space.

Unfortunately JVC's D-VHS standard didn't catch on. Maybe it came about
too early, maybe it was too expensive, maybe it was lack of wupport
from Hollywood. The recorder/players are still being manufactured and
sold, you'll just have to look hard to find them. With Blue Ray and
HD-DVD devices on the horizon, it's likely that commerical D-VHS tapes
will cease this year, but you should be able to find blank D-VHS media
for years to come (search the web and you can still locate blank Beta
media for sale).

The only unsafe bet with D-VHS is that it's input is always over IEEE
1394 (FireWire) and 1394 D-VHS standard allows for copy protection to
be turned on at the providers will. If copy protection is on, the
recorder will not be able to record. So at any point the device could
be made useless (unless you find PBS-HD you station of choice).

This has yet to happen for the over the air networks. My FireWire
connection from my Hitachi's built in 8-VSB tuner works quite well with
virtual D-VHS software (finally you can do this from a Windows PC, if
anyone is interested, check out this link: (sorry, for the avsforum
reference):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&thread...

Cable is a different story. I've yet to lease a box that had the
FireWire port enabled, but my understanding is when it is enabled what
you'll be able to record will be very limited (possibly only local
networks). So I don't think it's worth the $350+ you'll have to lay
down to own a D-VHS recorder. I don't think it's worth the $20+ for
blank D-VHS tapes. If you're still interested, here is a good website
to buy movies, blank media, learn more info, etc...

http://www.dvhsmovie.com/





















Nightwing wrote:
> Since this is currently the only format out there capable of
recording
> HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
> favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
> The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
> start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
> frequently crash & need to be reformatted.
>
> The buzz over Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, also useless as these are players
> only, with recorders probably 2-3 yrs down the road. I never even
> considered a DVD player till the DVD recorders arrived.
>
> A quick pass through of the local Best Buy, Circuit City & American
TV
> recently found no D-VHS players currently in stock & most sales staff
> enitirely in the dark, not even knowing they exist. A year ago all of
> them had some on the shelves.
>
> About the only trick one needs to know, is that since the firewire
> connection, needed for HD recording, can not be selected for timer
> recordings, (timeshifting), one needs to run out to Radio Shack & buy
> a VCR programming remote for 10 bucks & away you go.
>
> Are all the owners of HD sets & receivers, content to have limited or
> no recording options, & content to having to be there when you show
or
> movie is on. And are people who've spent 1500 to thousands on the
sets
> that unwilling to spend 250-500 for a recorder? Or perhaps like the
> clueless salesmen you don't even know this option exists?
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 1:56:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

(Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> The only unsafe bet with D-VHS is that it's input is always over IEEE
> 1394 (FireWire) and 1394 D-VHS standard allows for copy protection to
> be turned on at the providers will. If copy protection is on, the
> recorder will not be able to record.

This isn't strictly true, as there are variations in the "levels" of
copy-protection.

OTA networks will *never* be unable to be recorded to a D-VHS recorder
via FireWire unless somebody screws up the settings of flags, because the
FCC has said that this isn't allowed.

Other channels, though, could be set to any number of different
possibilities:

- "copy freely", so you can make the recording and as many copies of it
as you want
- "record" but not "copy", so you could make a recording but not a copy of
that recording...this is sometimes called "copy once"
- "don't record", which is what you said...the D-VHS won't be able to
record it...this is sometimes called "copy never"

In addition to these settings, encryption may or may not be required on the
recording.

OTA with the broadcast flag unset is supposed to be treated as "copy
freely, no encryption". OTA with the broadcast flag is "copy freely with
encryption". This keeps it from being sent to a PC FireWire input, which
is the point of the broadcast flag.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesWithOrange/Obedience...
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 3:47:59 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

I've got a Mits HS-HD1100U that I have had for about a year (eBay $266) and
now have combined it with the LG LST-3410A DVR (eBay $600), and have what I
would consider a great combination that will bridge the gap (for me) until
HD-DVD/Blu-Ray burners are available at a reasonable price. You can find
them (DVHS) out there, albeit not very consistently.

I'm sure that there are at least a couple of reasons why they aren't very
popular, namely that tape is a dated technology, and as soon as HD optical
disk technology is commercially available, these tape machines will become
history. Also, they are built with many what I would consider unreasonable
restrictions, namely the machines lack integrated ATSC receivers, and
Firewire connections on other HD equipment is not universally available. I
happen to have chosen a TV that had an integrated ATSC receiver and Firewire
port, and the LG DVR has both as well, so this set up works for me, but my
setup is not typical. Since there is a limited market for DVHS, you are
going to see a commensurate limited choice of hardware.

Phil

"Nightwing" <NightWing@lunaticfringe.com> wrote in message
news:1188315s4eoitflc9m2hl5cihnaribc204@4ax.com...
> Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
> HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
> favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
> The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
> start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
> frequently crash & need to be reformatted.
>
> The buzz over Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD, also useless as these are players
> only, with recorders probably 2-3 yrs down the road. I never even
> considered a DVD player till the DVD recorders arrived.
>
> A quick pass through of the local Best Buy, Circuit City & American TV
> recently found no D-VHS players currently in stock & most sales staff
> enitirely in the dark, not even knowing they exist. A year ago all of
> them had some on the shelves.
>
> About the only trick one needs to know, is that since the firewire
> connection, needed for HD recording, can not be selected for timer
> recordings, (timeshifting), one needs to run out to Radio Shack & buy
> a VCR programming remote for 10 bucks & away you go.
>
> Are all the owners of HD sets & receivers, content to have limited or
> no recording options, & content to having to be there when you show or
> movie is on. And are people who've spent 1500 to thousands on the sets
> that unwilling to spend 250-500 for a recorder? Or perhaps like the
> clueless salesmen you don't even know this option exists?
Anonymous
March 14, 2005 4:28:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Nightwing <NightWing@lunaticfringe.com> wrote (in part):

>Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
>HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
>favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
>The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
>start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
>frequently crash & need to be reformatted.

I currently have four ways to save HD programs:

1) LG LST-3410A tuner/DVR. This is by far the easiest method for
watch-and-erase viewing, and when I filled up the original drive with
shows I wanted to keep I replaced it. I put it back in when I want to
watch one of those shows. Others have had success installing
removeable drive cases, but it didn't work well for me (yet). Also,
LG's response to any drive problem, real or perceived, is to reformat
the drive. Commercials can be edited out, but the edits are far from
frame-accurate and there's a disruption at the edit points.

2) MyHD MDP-120 tuner card that can turn a computer into a DVR. Saves
the entire transport stream which eats up a lot of drive space but
lets you select the subchannel on playback. For things I'm saving I
use the free HDTVtoMPEG2 program to remove commercials and save only
the desired subchannel. Edits are not quite frame-accurate (probably
edits on packet boundaries) but results are smooth. I plan to buy the
new MDP-130 before the company is forced to add broadcast flag
support.

3) Mitsubishi HD-HS2000U D-VHS. HD is strictly Firewire in and out.
The LG can archive to it and play the results. MyHD software can play
and record to HDD from the tapes and record directly on D-VHS from
incoming programs, but can't archive from HDD to tape. Apparently a
(bad) design decision; I could sometimes trick it into doing so under
earlier versions of the software.

4) (Re)writeable DVD. I don't mean saving in a DVD format. Just save
the .ts files like any data files, as many as will fit. Small files
(~100-200 MB) seem to work better than one big file. If properly
named the MyHD will play them seamlessly. Obviously can't fit a whole
movie on one DVD, but changing them is a small price to pay for a low
cost solution and I can alway copy them back to the HDD first to play
without interruption.

We need a much simpler, more universal way to move HD around, both to
watch it elsewhere in the house and to record it on a device (DVR,
D-VHS or whatever) that may be separate from the tuner. Why have one
expensive recorder for cable, another for DirecTV and a third for
Dish? If you want to switch services you need a whole new set of
expensive hardware. The ideal would be a device to remodulate the
transport stream onto a TV channel that all OTA receivers can deal
with. Dish had one briefly as an add-on for one of their receivers
but discontinued it (and changed their format so that it no longer
works). But the entertainment industry will fight that, as they have
fought every advancement that threatens to undermine their business
model, even though they stand to make billions when they lose (as with
VCRs, video rental stores, even television itself) and nothing when
they win (remember DAT?).

Del Mibbler
March 14, 2005 2:47:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 13 Mar 2005 18:24:06 -0800, Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com wrote:


>Cable is a different story. I've yet to lease a box that had the
>FireWire port enabled, but my understanding is when it is enabled what
>you'll be able to record will be very limited (possibly only local
>networks). So I don't think it's worth the $350+ you'll have to lay
>down to own a D-VHS recorder. I don't think it's worth the $20+ for
>blank D-VHS tapes. If you're still interested, here is a good website
>to buy movies, blank media, learn more info, etc...


I don't know what cable company you have, but my time warner has the
firewire enabled & so far everything I've taped has been fine, with
no disabled copy protection. Actually reading about the nightmare copy
protections to be imposed, I tend to think that the future disc based
systems will be rendered unusable before the get off the ground. And
the only thing they'll be able to record might just be your own home
movies & video productions.
I prefer to start building my collection before the movie & tv
industry triumphs & makes all video recording of shows, movies,
programs, etc. just a memory of something you used to be able to do in
the good old days.
Anonymous
March 15, 2005 1:41:18 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Nightwing" <NightWing@lunaticfringe.com> wrote in message
news:1188315s4eoitflc9m2hl5cihnaribc204@4ax.com...
> Since this is currently the only format out there capable of recording
> HD broadcasts, that allows one to save up a collection of thier
> favorites, why isn't it being marketed more?
>
> The dvr solution is pretty useless, as once it's full you have to
> start erasing previously saved materials, add to it the drives
> frequently crash & need to be reformatted.

You can usually dump the files (.ts transport stream) to a computer and
archive them to DVD. Personally I think going back to a tape medium is a
step backward.

Steve
!