Samsung DLP HLN4365W audio/video out of sync? Common probl..

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hello all,

I recently purchased a Samsung HLN4365W 43" widescreen DLP from
BestBuy. First, the picture is fantastic, and I love everything about
this unit except one thing - The audio/video tends to fall out of
synch intermittently, and this drives me insane.

I purchased the service plan with BestBuy and have already been in
touch with their contracted TV repair shop for Samsung. The
technician there tells me that this is 'normal' as the newer DLP
screens 'auto-adjust' the sync, whereas the older screens were done
manually. They tell me there is nothing they can do and to call
1-800-Samsung if I want to confirm with the manufacturer. So I did!

Sure enough, they sing the same song. Having a slight delay is
"within spec" (!) for this TV - although I never actually described
how *much* it was off by, so how he can say it is 'within spec' if
really beyond me.

Now, the particular unit I purchased was a floor model at the store,
so I got it significantly discounted. The manufacture date on the
back says October 2004. It is *possible* this is one of the older
units with manual adjustment?

What gets me is that I see relatively few comments about this
phenomenon, yet I hear many rave reviews about Samsung's DLP
screens... so am I alone on this? I am convinced there is something
*wrong* with my unit, I can't believe that the audio/video being off
by typically about half a second (but not always consistent), and from
multiple sources (digital cable, DVD (using Monster component video
cable), VCR, etc...).

Has anyone else experienced this? Is this 'normal' as the
manufacturer tells me??

Thanks!

- Kevin

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kevin_sargent@hotmail.com (Kevin Sargent) wrote in
news:f2c0c21.0503221952.69cff60e@posting.google.com:

> Hello all,
>
> I recently purchased a Samsung HLN4365W 43" widescreen DLP from
> BestBuy. First, the picture is fantastic, and I love everything about
> this unit except one thing - The audio/video tends to fall out of
> synch intermittently, and this drives me insane.
>
> I purchased the service plan with BestBuy and have already been in
> touch with their contracted TV repair shop for Samsung. The
> technician there tells me that this is 'normal' as the newer DLP
> screens 'auto-adjust' the sync, whereas the older screens were done
> manually. They tell me there is nothing they can do and to call
> 1-800-Samsung if I want to confirm with the manufacturer. So I did!
>
> Sure enough, they sing the same song. Having a slight delay is
> "within spec" (!) for this TV - although I never actually described
> how *much* it was off by, so how he can say it is 'within spec' if
> really beyond me.
>
> Now, the particular unit I purchased was a floor model at the store,
> so I got it significantly discounted. The manufacture date on the
> back says October 2004. It is *possible* this is one of the older
> units with manual adjustment?
>
> What gets me is that I see relatively few comments about this
> phenomenon, yet I hear many rave reviews about Samsung's DLP
> screens... so am I alone on this? I am convinced there is something
> *wrong* with my unit, I can't believe that the audio/video being off
> by typically about half a second (but not always consistent), and from
> multiple sources (digital cable, DVD (using Monster component video
> cable), VCR, etc...).
>
> Has anyone else experienced this? Is this 'normal' as the
> manufacturer tells me??
>
> Thanks!
>
> - Kevin
>


I don't have an answer, but I do have a question. Are you running your
audio through a receiver or amp, or are you using the TV's audio? It
might make a difference.

Dave

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Kevin Sargent wrote:
>
> I recently purchased a Samsung HLN4365W 43" widescreen DLP from
> BestBuy. First, the picture is fantastic, and I love everything about
> this unit except one thing - The audio/video tends to fall out of
> synch intermittently, and this drives me insane.
>
> I purchased the service plan with BestBuy and have already been in
> touch with their contracted TV repair shop for Samsung. The
> technician there tells me that this is 'normal' as the newer DLP
> screens 'auto-adjust' the sync, whereas the older screens were done
> manually. They tell me there is nothing they can do and to call
> 1-800-Samsung if I want to confirm with the manufacturer. So I did!
>
> Sure enough, they sing the same song. Having a slight delay is
> "within spec" (!) for this TV - although I never actually described
> how *much* it was off by, so how he can say it is 'within spec' if
> really beyond me.
>
> Now, the particular unit I purchased was a floor model at the store,
> so I got it significantly discounted. The manufacture date on the
> back says October 2004. It is *possible* this is one of the older
> units with manual adjustment?
>
> What gets me is that I see relatively few comments about this
> phenomenon, yet I hear many rave reviews about Samsung's DLP
> screens... so am I alone on this? I am convinced there is something
> *wrong* with my unit, I can't believe that the audio/video being off
> by typically about half a second (but not always consistent), and from
> multiple sources (digital cable, DVD (using Monster component video
> cable), VCR, etc...).
>
> Has anyone else experienced this? Is this 'normal' as the
> manufacturer tells me??

As others have told you, this is a common problem with these sets. Are
you sure that your set says October 2004? I thought that Samsung had
stopped making this set by then, replacing it with the HLP version. I
have the same set myself (mine is the HLN437W, which is identical), and
mine was made in October 2003 - which was fairly late in the production
cycle for this set.

In any event, Samsung Service replaced the electronics in my set to fix
this problem. They did the same thing for many other customers. I
suggest that you call back their Digital TV Service group (make sure that
you're talking to the Digital TV group) and ask them again. Push a
little. They've fixed this problem for others, and they should do so for
you. A few customers even got entirely new sets.

However, if your set was really made in 10/2004, it is quite possible
that your set already has the fixes in place. If so, then what they are
telling you is correct - the set may well be within spec.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, keep in mind that sync problems
can occur anywhere in the signal chain. I still see occasional
out-of-sync broadcasts, but these can be caused by the cable box, the
cable company itself, the original broadcaster, or even the source media.
So don't assume that every out-of-sync broadcast that you encounter is
caused by your set - the problem may well lie elsewhere.

The basic problem is this - the set has a video circuit that has to do
some manipulation of the incoming signal to give you that great picture.
That manipulation takes a bit of time. The result is that the video
winds up very slightly behind the audio - especially if you are running
the audio through a separate receiver (as most of us do). Under normal
circumstances, the delay should be less than 60ms, which is all but
unnoticeable. But occasionally, the delay can be longer, and that's what
they've repaired on a great many of these sets. Incidentally, that 60ms
figure is the "spec" that Samsung is referring to - if your delay is
60ms, then your set is within spec. If it's longer, then you're out of
spec. The problem with the earlier versions of these sets was that the
delay sometimes got up to 90-100ms, roughly a tenth of a second. That
became noticeable.

You mention "half a second" - I've never seen a delay of that magnitude -
except when there was something wrong with the broadcast itself. Do some
careful checking to get a more accurate figure. If it's really half a
second, the problem probably isn't in the set. Either that or the set is
just plain defective.

BTW, there's no "auto adjust" or "manual adjust" of synchronization in
any of these sets. That's just typical Best Buy misinformation. Those
clerks and techs will tell you anything - they seem to just make this
stuff up. Many of them probably think that they're telling you the
truth. <g>

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Hi Jim,

Thanks for the detailed reply!

As for the delay, it is *definitely* more than 60ms, and it definitely
did seem about 500ms at times, but again, this is virtually impossible
to clock to say for sure.

I have read other threads where people say they see this with STBs but
not DVD, but in my case it is both. In fact, DVDs are often *worse*,
and this is the same DVD player I've used for 3 years and never had
this problem before.

I just called Samsung again to press this issue further. Here is the
story;

My set was produced in October 2004, according to the sticker and that
is what the serial number corresponds to with Samsung. There
apparently is a fix for sets that were produced before July 2004 to
"minimize the effect". But since mine is after 07/2004, there is
nothing they can do about it and it is "working normal".

They did confirm that the tolerance is 40-60ms - which is "barely
noticeable" to the human eye - but I am sure mine is definitely above
that, although granted my "half a second" claim may be only
interpretation, but that is how it feels. How can I accurately clock
this?

Thanks.

Kevin

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Kevin Sargent wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thanks for the detailed reply!
>
> As for the delay, it is *definitely* more than 60ms, and it definitely
> did seem about 500ms at times, but again, this is virtually impossible
> to clock to say for sure.
>
> I have read other threads where people say they see this with STBs but
> not DVD, but in my case it is both. In fact, DVDs are often *worse*,
> and this is the same DVD player I've used for 3 years and never had
> this problem before.
>
> I just called Samsung again to press this issue further. Here is the
> story;
>
> My set was produced in October 2004, according to the sticker and that
> is what the serial number corresponds to with Samsung. There
> apparently is a fix for sets that were produced before July 2004 to
> "minimize the effect". But since mine is after 07/2004, there is
> nothing they can do about it and it is "working normal".
>
> They did confirm that the tolerance is 40-60ms - which is "barely
> noticeable" to the human eye - but I am sure mine is definitely above
> that, although granted my "half a second" claim may be only
> interpretation, but that is how it feels. How can I accurately clock
> this?

I'm hard pressed to give you a specific procedure, but it shouldn't be
too hard to tell the difference between a 20th of a second (50ms) and a
half a second. 500ms is long enough to cause the audio to be several
words ahead of the video on fast dialog, or perhaps only one word for
slower dialog. If you're seeing that kind of delay, then your set is
clearly defective and Samsung should be perfectly willing to repair or
replace it.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote in message news:<4242227f$0$25212$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com>...
> Kevin Sargent wrote:
> > Hi Jim,
> >
> > Thanks for the detailed reply!
> >
> > As for the delay, it is *definitely* more than 60ms, and it definitely
> > did seem about 500ms at times, but again, this is virtually impossible
> > to clock to say for sure.
> >
> > I have read other threads where people say they see this with STBs but
> > not DVD, but in my case it is both. In fact, DVDs are often *worse*,
> > and this is the same DVD player I've used for 3 years and never had
> > this problem before.
> >
> > I just called Samsung again to press this issue further. Here is the
> > story;
> >
> > My set was produced in October 2004, according to the sticker and that
> > is what the serial number corresponds to with Samsung. There
> > apparently is a fix for sets that were produced before July 2004 to
> > "minimize the effect". But since mine is after 07/2004, there is
> > nothing they can do about it and it is "working normal".
> >
> > They did confirm that the tolerance is 40-60ms - which is "barely
> > noticeable" to the human eye - but I am sure mine is definitely above
> > that, although granted my "half a second" claim may be only
> > interpretation, but that is how it feels. How can I accurately clock
> > this?
>
> I'm hard pressed to give you a specific procedure, but it shouldn't be
> too hard to tell the difference between a 20th of a second (50ms) and a
> half a second. 500ms is long enough to cause the audio to be several
> words ahead of the video on fast dialog, or perhaps only one word for
> slower dialog. If you're seeing that kind of delay, then your set is
> clearly defective and Samsung should be perfectly willing to repair or
> replace it.

That is my feeling too. As for the delay, the sound appears to be
typically about a half-word ahead of the picture during "average"
speed dialogue. Obviously the problem is magnified with fast action
or talking.

I am still within my 30 days from purchase, so I could always bring it
back to BestBuy for a full refund. But I really like the picture and
the set as a whole - except for this quirk. (The wife doesn't notice
it "as much" as I do, but it drives me nuts. Nor does she see the
"rainbow" effect inherent to DLP which I notice, but I can live with
that. She wants to keep it.).

In any case, my next project is to try to locate another set of the
same model in a store so I can compare to see if it really is just my
perception (though I doubt it). It's just a bit tough to find since
this model is no longer produced...

Aside from that, I plan to call the repair shop back and insist that
someone at least come and see it, although I know they will deny there
is a problem...

Thanks again for the feedback.

Kevin

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"RicSeyler" <ricseyler@SPAMgulf.net> wrote in message
news:eel0e.49687$6g7.14982@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> Boy, I sure see a whole lot of Samsung "Within Specs" problems
> on newsgroups. Compared to all other brands combined, at least to me. YMMV
>
> Pin Cushion problems, severe keystone that the controls wont bring in
> line,
> marred screens, cabinet misfitment, noises, voice sync, on and on...
>
> Just about to a tee the, person get the obligatory "Within Specs" from the
> Drones
> at Samsung.
>
> I'll NEVER buy a Samsung product just from what I've read in the last 5 or
> so months......
>
They have sold a ton of these products, became a leader in this new
technology and as a result you get more talk here. There is also a Tech
education situation here.

I had a sound/video sync issue with a customer, installed a board before I
looked in the "service" adjustments menu to find that the audio delay was
turned off. Without that little bit of hmm, maybe I missed something I
would be telling the customer that it's in "spec".

There are no keystone problems, or Pincushion problems on the Samsung, there
can't be any with the light path design that Samsung uses. There are
problems that show up because of severe shipping conditions (warped screens
and cabinets) and moisture between the screens causing shadows, also lamps
from Phillips being defective (everyone is getting that Mit, Hit, Rca,
etc.).

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Do a Google on Samsung Pincushion Problem and Samsung Keystone Problem...

I've seen quite a few on here and in other groups in the last 6 months
or so.

I'm not saying every Samsung product is going to have there problems,
but who wants to take the chance if they know about them going into it?
And to me it's not necessarily the problems that are the biggest concern,
it's the flippant "within spec" coming from Samsung.

Most people who have been around computers, new cars, technology in
general have run into the "within spec" issues and it's very
frustrating, especially
after spending several thousand dollars and get their new toy home..

Jeff Rigby wrote:

>
>
>There are no keystone problems, or Pincushion problems on the Samsung, there
>can't be any with the light path design that Samsung uses. There are
>problems that show up because of severe shipping conditions (warped screens
>and cabinets) and moisture between the screens causing shadows, also lamps
>from Phillips being defective (everyone is getting that Mit, Hit, Rca,
>etc.).
>
>
>
>
>

--
Ric Seyler

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

RicSeyler wrote:
> Not to say that all Samsung products have problems...
> I just won't take the chance I could get one and run
> into the "within spec" service dept.

That's your choice to make, of course. Just keep in mind that most
Samsung owners are delighted with their sets. The only reason you hear a
large number of complaints is because of the huge number of sets in the
marketplace. Samsung has really dominated the DLP market. Samsungs have
about the same failure rate as any other brand. And, btw, Samsung has
been very good about providing service to those few customers that do run
into trouble.

> Jim Gilliland wrote:
>
>> I love my Samsung DLP. Your mileage may vary.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

RicSeyler wrote:
>
> I agree that Samsung has a very nice piece of the market, and that in
> it's self lends to more
> possible complaints. But with the increased number of complaints there
> is a very narrow
> margin of response from Samsung. "Within Specs"....... that's my concern
> -vs- the actual
> number of complaints. I just wasn't doing a very good job of making my
> point clear. :-)

Yeah, that might bother me too - if it seemed to be a common theme. But
this is the first time I've ever heard of that response from them. It's
certainly not what they said to me on the one time that I needed to talk
to their service dept.

Even if it turns out that they are correct and the set really IS in spec,
I'd still expect them to send someone to take a look at it. I suspect
that they'll come through for Kevin, just as they have for other customers.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Alan wrote:
> In article <42431d45$0$7662$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> Jim Gilliland <usemylastname@cheerful.com> writes:
>
>>Jeff Rigby wrote:
>
>>>Again, if the delay is variable then THAT problem is NOT the Samsung DLP.
>>>The time to process the incoming signal is fixed, at least as far as the
>>>same input is concerned.
>>
>>I'm afraid that's not true at all. The video delay in the DLPs is quite
>>variable. Each frame must be processed by the digital video chip, and
>>the time required for that processing is dependent on both the size and
>>the content of the image. So the delay may grow and shrink depending on
>>what exactly is in the signal stream.
>
> If that is true, then the program material speeds up and slows down
> randomly. This seems pretty unacceptable in a new technology.

Actually, it's true with pretty much any HDTV, at least any that are
doing any sort of upscaling, line doubling, or other digital video
processing. If you think about it, it's obvious - the set has to receive
a complete frame before processing it. That's at least 1/60th of a
second right there - 17ms for a progressive scan feed. If the set is
receiving an interlaced image (1080i or even 480i), that doubles it to
33ms to receive the entire frame. Add a bit more time for the actual
processing to occur, and it becomes easy to see why Samsung claims a spec
of 40-60ms. Most HD sets will have that same specification, unless they
are doing no video processing whatsoever.

However, in general that is fast enough that no one notices the slight
delay. In the earlier HLM/HLN sets, Samsung erred by using an algorithm
on their Faroudja chip that took a bit too much time and the delay became
noticeable to some viewers - especially when it was compounded with a
slight video delay in the source (which is surprisingly common).

Unfortunately, if you combine several "unnoticeable" delays, the result
can become quite noticeable.

Some of the more expensive A/V receivers are now including an audio delay
feature to allow users to compensate for this problem. It is by no means
unique to Samsung.

Samsung catches the brunt of it for two reasons. One of them is simply
that they have such a large chunk of the market. The second, though, is
the very real problem that affected the earlier models. Fortunately,
they stepped up to it and have replaced the video boards in these sets
for any customer who asked them to do so. Mine was in that category.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On 28 Mar 2005 08:11:35 -0800, "Kevin Sargent"
<kevin_sargent@hotmail.com> wrote:

>First, thanks to all for the great information. Glad to get more
>insight than what we typically get from the vendor & manufacturer!
>
>That being said, I have a few thoughts...
>
>- the delay is definitely variable - from virtually spot on to about a
>word or so behind. Perhaps it may be "within spec" (the high end of
>the range, anyway), but nonetheless very annoying. Since this delay is
>a factor of the complexity of the image being processed, would it stand
>to reason that an HD signal would be more prone to this? It appears
>the DVD feed (standard def over component video) is frequently off by
>the largest margin, followed by digital cable (SVHS) then analog cable
>(coax) being the "best" aligned. Have not experienced HD yet...
>
>- even if there is a "delay" function built into the HLP lineup would
>the "range of slowdown" not still exist, only the synchronization would
>be moved up, correct? Would this mean theoretically the picture would
>sometimes be ahead of the sound (albeit *very* slightly)? Just
>wondering.
>
>- finally, is there anyone with the *identical* model I have (HLN4365X
>mfg'd after 07/2004) that noticed the same delay and was actually
>"fixed" by Samsung by replacing boards or other hardware?
>
>The conclusion I draw from this is that the only *real* fix would be to
>replace the processor handling the image processing with one that is
>faster and capable of doing the same work in less time...?
>Implementing a delay function is really the band-aid answer for a
>larger issue...
>
>Thanks again for all the help.
>
>
>Kevin.


Well, I don't know if this will help you but here is my 2 cents.
I bought a Samsung HLP6163W 2 weeks ago. Also got a LG 3510a and Sony
GX300. I have used DVI input, Component, S-video, Composite, and coax.
I have no delay on any input. Everything matches up perfect.
I have tried OTA HD. Cable HD with the QAM tuner. DVD from the LG, DVD
from the Sony.
Even Laserdisc to Sony via s-video, Sony to TV via component.
Everything works great.
I think you mentioned earlier yours was a floor model and you still
have time to take it back. I would take it back and get a HLP model,
not a HLN. You got a great price on the HLN but since it doesn't work
right, your price isn't great anymore.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 12:47:22 -0500, "Leonard Caillouet"
<nospam@noway.com> wrote:

>The HLP models may have a video delay that is noticeable when playing games.
>There is enough lag that a serious gamer would not consider it acceptable.
>I was servicing a CRT based RPTV for a client that just bought a new HLP and
>the kids playing games couldn't wait to get the CRT set fixed because of the
>lag on the Samsung.
>
>Leonard


Interesting. That is one thing I haven't tried is video games.
I will have a friend bring over a game unit and test it out then
report back.

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Jim Gilliland" <usemylastname@cheerful.com> wrote in message
news:42431d45$0$7662$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com...
> Jeff Rigby wrote:
>>
>> There is no adjustment for Audio/video sync on OLDER DLP sets but there
>> is an upgrade that adds a sound delay circuit that 1) can be turned on
>> and off and adjusted for delay (0-3). This circuit is in all newer sets.
>> I have seen a couple of newer sets (HLN) where the delay circuit is off,
>> it's supposed to be on by default.
>
> That adjustment exists on the HLP and newer Samsungs, but not on the older
> HLN models.

The model year is a little misleading as they are still selling that set but
all the newer ones and that includes yours, has a sound delay circuit built
into the tv so that the pic and sound will be more in sync.

Regardless, it isn't particular useful - it only
> affects the sound within the TV, so if (like most of us) you route your
> audio through an external receiver, it has no effect. So it has very
> limited usefulness.

Very true.
>
>> IF there is no delay between sound out of the speakers and the audio out
>> of the set then the sound delay is turned off or you have an older mfg
>> set.
>>
>> Again, if the delay is variable then THAT problem is NOT the Samsung DLP.
>> The time to process the incoming signal is fixed, at least as far as the
>> same input is concerned.
>
> I'm afraid that's not true at all.
Sorta true. The INPUT is the key here, Component input usually takes LESS
time to process a signal even if it's a full HD signal than video or antenna
input. The type of signal input to component matters if it's SD (upconvert)
or above 720P where the tv has to downconvert. But still the delay time is
less than the other inputs.

Samsung recommend that you use component input for playing games as this
gives the least delay.

>The video delay in the DLPs is quite variable. Each frame must be
>processed by the digital video chip, and the time required for that
>processing is dependent on both the size and the content of the image. So
>the delay may grow and shrink depending on what exactly is in the signal
>stream.

True but,

For the same INPUT the delay difference is not noticeable. IF you have
noticeable delay differences on the same input the problem is not the TV!
If you are watching a SD program on component input the delay for the entire
SD program will be the same, same goes for 720P and 1080I. With the same
signal stream. The signal incoming to component input is analog! The
different modes do take different times to process but it's not variable for
the same mode!

For instance with DVD the decompression algorithum IN THE DVD PLAYER will
take different times to uncompress the picture for very complex scenes, the
output of the DVD player is ANALOG and that always has the same information
stream to the TV.