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More GeForce 9800 rumours

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  • Nvidia
  • Geforce
  • Graphics
Last response: in Graphics Cards
August 17, 2007 6:11:05 PM

More GeForce 9800 rumours-- thought it would prove to be a highly sort after topic.

Hmmm - maybe, might end up getting bored with the 9800 before its released.

Anyways heres the link:
http://www.custompc.co.uk/news/601215/rumour-control--g...

Rumour mill over and out!

More about : geforce 9800 rumours

August 17, 2007 6:34:12 PM

All speculative speculation.

The only thing we (might) know is that Nvidia (maybe) is releasing some graphics card from some generation this some year.
August 17, 2007 6:39:32 PM

Oh i never said it was fact--to be fair its same old story just on a different website...

But the point is -- Nvidia are ripping us off!!!

Oh yeah believe it!

£400 for a DX10 graphics card - if this was ay other industry they would be up for false advertising?

Come on guys this just isn't fair and you would expect better.

WE SHOULD MAKE A STAND - any ideas?
Related resources
August 17, 2007 6:49:22 PM

Why would it be false advertising?
August 17, 2007 6:51:30 PM

er - cause the 8800 series is NOT a DX10 graphics card - example:: If I purchased a car and it would only take me a mile would/could you advertise it as a road worthy card for general use? NO!

August 17, 2007 6:57:34 PM

How is the 8800 not a DX10 card? If you are referring to poor performance, the so called DX10 games that are out now suffer from poor implementation of the DX10 features, you should wait for a real DX10 game like Bioshock or Crysis and you'll probably see that the 8800 can run DX10.
August 17, 2007 7:01:33 PM

you reckon? Because there is alot of people out there that would disagree
August 17, 2007 7:02:53 PM

"WE SHOULD MAKE A STAND - any ideas?"

umm don't buy it.
August 17, 2007 7:04:37 PM

too late! but at least I only purchsed the 320MB version
August 17, 2007 7:29:41 PM



theuprightman24 said:
you reckon? Because there is alot of people out there that would disagree



5 more days and we'll see. :) 
August 17, 2007 7:34:26 PM

Oh believe me I would love for the 8800 series to work -- I really want a 8800 ultra, money all put aside for it but I am not spending out £400 to get something that won't see the rest of the year out
August 17, 2007 8:46:42 PM

predaking said:
"WE SHOULD MAKE A STAND - any ideas?"

umm don't buy it.


LoL :pt1cable: 

I don't know about Bioshock but Crysis and UT3 are promised to work well with 8800's.

You can also get a GTX @ 610Mhz from Newegg for 499$ BTW.. 400 pounds is not a very good offer even for an Ultra.

August 17, 2007 8:58:57 PM

theuprightman24 said:
Oh believe me I would love for the 8800 series to work -- I really want a 8800 ultra, money all put aside for it but I am not spending out £400 to get something that won't see the rest of the year out



Do you recon that all game manufacturers are retarded? Name one game that GTX can't run today? "Dx10" games that were tested today run waaaaay better in Dx9 mode (they were made to). BTW.. No one will release a game that 96% of the customers will not be able to run. Even a GTS 320 should easily last you one year as long as you stick to moderate resolutions (maybe two).

I think that what you are really pissed at is that if you spend a fortune on the best GPU today.. it will fade against a better model in the new future.. But that's expected and will not change until... never??
August 17, 2007 9:10:11 PM

Just bitching really...........

I know tech moves on thats whats so good about it its just seems graphics cards are not stable enough -- but I guess thats the way the game is played so to speak....

Guess I am more pissed that I purchased a 320MB card instead of a GTX.
a b Î Nvidia
August 17, 2007 9:16:09 PM

As the uprightman started it i will continue with the car analogies :lol: 
Seriously its like buying a car though (see told you)no way would i ever buy a new car the amount of money you loose straight off of the forecourt makes it a no brainer as far as im concerned.
I use the same princable with graphics cards and it has turned out quite well this time i dont give a hoot about DX10 or Vista so a GTS will be a good buy for me when i get my new pc in the new year, i dont want/need the best and as games will be backwardsly compatable with DX9 for the forseeable future,well i wont need a new card for about 2 years and they might have made one that can play DX10 properly by then. :lol: 
Mactronix
August 17, 2007 9:26:07 PM

theuprightman24 said:
Just bitching really...........

I know tech moves on thats whats so good about it its just seems graphics cards are not stable enough -- but I guess thats the way the game is played so to speak....

Guess I am more pissed that I purchased a 320MB card instead of a GTX.


I am ordering a new setup in a day or two and I am going wit 320MB GTS. My monitor (witch I adore) supports res up to 1280x1024 and if your monitor is anything like mine you have made a right choice. At lower resolutions GTS runs most games (with 1 or 2 exceptions) as well as GTX does even with full AA. Getting GTX/Ultra is only wise if you have a big*ss screen, otherwise it's a waste of cash as any game that GTS will miserably fail to run should kill GTX/Ultra as well and a new generation GPU will always be just around the corner :) 
August 17, 2007 9:29:19 PM

Thats hit the nail on the head -- very easy to get caught up in getting the newist and best piece of hardware on the market -- but at the end of the day ask yourself is 130 FPS any better than 100 FPS.

The answer is human nature - your eyes can't react that fast anyway.
8800 series and/or 9800 is a no brainer.
August 17, 2007 9:33:35 PM

Well said :bounce: 

BTW The inq reported a day after the post you mentioned at the start of this thread that 9800 is likely to be delayed :) 

The rumormill is certainly doing it's part in confusing the hell out of everyone who cares enough to read it !!!

--> I am to tired for this anyway, G'night :) 
a b Î Nvidia
August 18, 2007 12:50:46 AM

theuprightman24 said:
er - cause the 8800 series is NOT a DX10 graphics card - example:: If I purchased a car and it would only take me a mile would/could you advertise it as a road worthy card for general use? NO!


Ridiculous comment, not a good comparison.

They may be underperforming, but they do fit the minimum requirements. Which would be like YUGO and SKODA technically being 'cars' and their abilities vary based on expectation. That someone might think a 'SPORT' edition of these would allow them to compete in F1 or take on a Lamborghini etc. is their own problem.

It's not false advertising.

Quote:
your eyes can't react that fast anyway.


Now THAT is false advertising.
August 18, 2007 6:35:30 AM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:


Quote:
your eyes can't react that fast anyway.


Now THAT is false advertising.



So your telling me you can tell the differents between a game running at 100 FPS and 130 FPS???? (without using a FPS coun ter)?????

Think not!
August 18, 2007 6:55:25 PM

Personally my eyes cant anything above 50-60 fps.
a c 225 Î Nvidia
August 18, 2007 7:34:32 PM

theuprightman24 said:
So your telling me you can tell the differents between a game running at 100 FPS and 130 FPS???? (without using a FPS coun ter)?????

Think not!

If everyone was the exactly the same with no differences at all and were able perceive the nuances in speed then we could/would all be or indeed have the capability of being fighter pilot's, F1 drivers or anything else that requires an ability to see and react extremely quickly, as someone whose adult life has been spent riding fast motorcycles around central London I can tell you that whilst there are not many people who have the ability to perceive more than 25 fps some of us can, really s'true.
August 18, 2007 7:47:38 PM

ok hers my 2cents-
first- it's a well documented that your eyes can't discern much above 60fps- now of course it's really the loading that matters- yes mu gts hit 100 most of the time in 2142 but when there are 64 people going at it it occasionally drops a bit but not enough to be an issue.
2nd- 8800 is one helluva card period- It eats any well made SW out and will easily run what is slated for the coming year- which is a new paramount for HW companies usually they are good for what is already out and thats it. Talk sheet all you want and save your money too....those of us not that concerned about it are loving our 8800's

Enjoy
August 18, 2007 9:25:24 PM

@ the upright man

If the 8800/2900 generation fails to run dx10 titles well I understand your frustration but I could think of a lot better places to point your finger.

I'm not an Nvidia fanboy but I would actually credit Nvidia with doing more to advance DX10 gaming. For 6 months Nvidia had the only dx10 hardware and arguably still has the best. Nvidia delivered the hardware before Vista or any dx10 title, patch or anything.

If I wanted to play the blame game this would be my order of blame.
-blame your own expectations, they were probably unrealistic.
-blame Microsoft, they own dx10 and couldn't deliver on time.
-blame the game developers, (late, crappy dx10 implementation etc.).
-blame AMD for allowing Nvidia to command a premium for so much of the year.

If you wanted dx10 gaming in 2007; from my layman's point of view Nvidia was the one company that held up their end more than any other.

August 18, 2007 9:33:53 PM

vonwombat said:
How is the 8800 not a DX10 card? If you are referring to poor performance, the so called DX10 games that are out now suffer from poor implementation of the DX10 features, you should wait for a real DX10 game like Bioshock or Crysis and you'll probably see that the 8800 can run DX10.

The 8800 is like an "FX" - as in the GF FX5800.
The FX had DX9 capability and was killer fast on DX8 games.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2003/01/27/nvidia_geforcefx/
However, when the first real DX9 games came out (like FarCry), the FX ran of of gas. Then forget about running Oblivion! It even had a fan as loud as a vacume cleaner.
Yes, the FX "can" run FarCry an Oblivion.
Thankfully the GF 6800 came out a year later which had 32bit color, twice the piplines, etc. and can run the games of the time smootly.

When I use the term 9700 type card, as in the Ati 9700 Pro, they got DX9 right from the start and had performance that couldn't even be used until a year later.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2002/08/19/ati_radeon_9700_pro_/
This review was back in 2002 - to give you an idea of how advanced this board was at the time.

I as hoping the HD 2900XT was another 9700, but it sadly didn't seem to be the case.
(just my 2 cents)
a b Î Nvidia
August 19, 2007 5:52:59 AM

theuprightman24 said:
So your telling me you can tell the differents between a game running at 100 FPS and 130 FPS???? (without using a FPS coun ter)?????

Think not!


Did I write that? No.

Perhaps its your eyes that suck, which is why you think everyone elses do. Either that or its reading comprehension you lack. Re-read the specific segment I quoted and re-think. :sarcastic: 
I specifically removed your questionable comment on gaming, and left your incorrect comment on physiology, which is closer to false advertising than the GF8800 or HD2900 being DX10 cards. :pfff: 
a b Î Nvidia
August 19, 2007 6:01:54 AM

1738289,23,135309 said:

first- it's a well documented that your eyes can't discern much above 60fps-

That statement is too generalized at the end to start with "it's a well documented fact..." And are you talking about thresholds of sensation or perception. Is it the eyes or the brain?

It's a well documented FACT that people, like myself, experience rainbow effects on even the GenII DLP projectors whose colour wheels work at 480segment/s (giving full frame 4 element [ie RGB-Black] at 120fps). That you can't discern much is different than uptightman's 'your eyes can't react that fast' statement which is just ignorant and far more inaccurate than the DX10 moniker on the GF8 and HS2K series.
[/quote]
a b Î Nvidia
August 19, 2007 9:21:54 AM

I have an idea why dont we get toms to check it out properly do a little article on it then we can put a sticky up and refer people to it instead of going through it every other month,its a comon misconception that a lot of people myself included dont really give a lot of propper thought to(read it some where so it must be true)untill they read or hear some of the counter discussion to their adopted point of view.
Mactronix
August 19, 2007 10:31:39 AM

Yes, I can't wait for the next gen GPUs. Burning my retinas out at 250+fps. Get buzzed on some energy drink (Monster ;) ) the next time you play, then tell me you can’t see more than 60fps.

:bounce:  Not recommended for children, pregnant women, or people sensitive to caffeine. :bounce: 


August 19, 2007 10:43:10 AM

Sorry for the offtopic but i am really upset with ape, what do you mean skoda's aren't really cars?
I mean a skoda octavia 2 or skoda superb is at it's price better then what 60% of the auto industry in in USA has to offer. If you didn't know skoda is part of the volkswagen group wich is one of the leading manufacturers in the world well above any of the USA manufacturers. Have you ever driven a skoda?
It's not personal but don't make fun of a car manufacturer if you didn't even drive one that's ignorant.
To show you an example take someone like chevrolet, they build a truck with a 6.6 litre diesel engine that has 250hp, take an audi for exaple ho has a 3.0litre diesel engine that has 228 hp.
That's less then half the size but with almost the same power.
So don' make fun of europe car makers ever again.
August 19, 2007 1:25:02 PM

I hate to contribute to this side topic but blatant lies need to be corrected.

GM's current 6.6l diesel produces 360 bhp but more importantly 650lb-ft of torque.

Besides everyone knows that India and China make the best cars. ;) 
August 19, 2007 2:48:22 PM

I said chevrolet and it had 250hp. And should i better compare the 6.6 litre engine with the 6.0litre engine from AMG wich has 612hp and 1000nm of torque. America sucks at cars.
a b Î Nvidia
August 19, 2007 4:10:32 PM

Come on lets not degenerate this into a inter country slanging match America does big fast grunty(if thats a word)and straight lines (modern day romans) :kaola: 
Europe does small curvey fast around corners :D 
No offence meant :lol: 
Mactronix
Ps hands up who can remember what the op was
August 19, 2007 4:49:39 PM

cristip: Chevrolet is part of GM, doofus. GM only produces one 6.6L engine. Not to mention, as a truck engine, there's a different emphasis on what's important to the engine. Finally, unless you have a proper transmission and differential for the purpose of the vehicle, the best engine in the world would mean squat. To add salt in the wounds, the average build quality of an American-made car now exceeds that of a European-made one (although still lags well behind most Asian cars).

That being said, I'm getting the Bioshock LE on release day, and we'll see how a heavily-overclocked 8800GTS does at that title. If it struggles, put me down as one waiting for a 9800. :) 
a b Î Nvidia
August 20, 2007 4:20:49 PM

cristip60 said:
Sorry for the offtopic but i am really upset with ape, what do you mean skoda's aren't really cars?


ReRead what I wrote I said they do qualify as cars, but that you can slap a 'sport' name badge on them, just don't expect them to compete with the true sports cars.

Quote:
I mean a skoda octavia 2 or skoda superb is at it's price better then what 60% of the auto industry in in USA has to offer.


That's like saying that at it's price the HD2400Pro and GF8500GT are better than 60% of the rest of the indstry.... wait they have no competition. Bu the point was about performance as a DX10 cars for the top model, not value for the low price point of a SKODA. MY statement was about the fact that at this point everyone knows that the GF8800 and HD2900 are first attempts at DX10 hardware and no one expects them to blow the doors off DX10 games, except the same people who expect first attempt and basic people mover cars to win F1 or LeMans.
BTW, when I'm talking performance you bring me a 7+ second 0-60 car with a sub 150MPH top speed? C'mon, now I'm dissapointed in you. :pfff: 

Quote:
If you didn't know skoda is part of the volkswagen group wich is one of the leading manufacturers in the world well above any of the USA manufacturers.


I know that, but a SKODA is NOT part of the VW line, it's part of the parent group, and can't trade on that, just like it's not a Porsche or Bugatti or Bentley. And if you trade on that then GM's got great divisions in Europe that are far better than SKODA in Vauxhall, Opel (still love the Lotus BiTurbo).

Quote:
Have you ever driven a skoda?


No, but I've riden in them and have no desire to drive one unless they offer something like a Vauxhall revamping. I don't need to drive a Yugo to know it's not a SuperCar, and it's not a 'sports car' regardless of whether they stencil the name GT or SPORT on it or not.

Quote:
It's not personal but don't make fun of a car manufacturer if you didn't even drive one that's ignorant.


I can make fun of them if I know them, and know their selection, I don't have to be forced to drive one (BTW, I've driven cars on 5 continents what about you?).

And BTW, you seem overly sensitive, because while I was using them as the 'anti-sport' car, I didn't make fun of them on build quality or volume of sales, just that they aren't sports cars, but they do everything else they need to (like the speed limit, stop, keep the wind and rain out, etc). So as false advertising goes if they bring out sport models, that they can't blow the doors off of a Zonda is not a surprise, and not false advertising; for what they are those can easily be their 'much better sport/sportier models, and still trail SuperCars by a lot.

Quote:
So don' make fun of europe car makers ever again.


Nah, I'll make fun of which ever car maker I want, that's my nature and my right, and I make fun of all type, N.Am, Asian and Euro (just Not Australian, they're already hurting enough :lol: 

You can act like the defender of Eurocars if you want, but if you knew anything about my view on cars, you'd know I like many EuroCars, but I'm also not ignorant of the good N.Am. and Asian cars out there.

Think Global, Eh! :hello: 


PS, AMG's a tunning company and doesn't count, because tunning companies in the US make Top Fuel / Funny Cars, etc, and really do you wanna go down that path? :pt1cable: 
August 20, 2007 5:33:10 PM

I wasn't refering to the sport car thing. I was refering to this "Which would be like YUGO and SKODA technically being 'cars'" that's what really hurt me. And i'm not defending the europe car making industry i love japanese cars more but you where just insulting europe car makers with that. And for you knowledge Skoda uses exactly the same chasis, engine, gearbox, seats, carpets, plastic and everything except the badge from volkswagen. And can i know what model from skoda where you riding in? And i really don't think USA car makers are better then europe ones, i mean the europe division of ford makes great cars, my father owned 2 mondeos and they where great cars. And skoda has a sport model and it's called skoda octavia rs.
I am really sorry for the offtopic but i'm begining to think that you are a car rasist(sorry for the expresion).
August 20, 2007 5:59:11 PM

you know, some ppl on here really need to read up on logic:
http://logic.philosophy.ox.ac.uk/main.htm

but perhaps some might be better served starting here first:
http://www.englishgrammar101.com/Lessons/Default.aspx


I do not mean any of this as a slam to non-native english speakers, but to those that try to get into a verbal fencing match and do not truly read/comprehend how logic works they are only making themselves look foolish. It also frustrates someone who presents a good logical counter to what is said only to have it ignorantly brushed off... simply put, when you are countered with solid logic you cannot beat that counter by simply repeating your (now debunked) statement ad-nauseam. You are still wrong and no, rewording it does not help.

@cristip60: so you were "hurt" by the perceived ribbing of euro-cars that you saw from grapeape but you can say "America sucks at cars" w/ no problem? You say don't rip on cars you know nothing about and yet you so obviously know nothing about U.S. trucks, which IMO implies that you know nothing about all US cars. Correct me if I am wrong about that, but the implication stands until proven otherwise. With that there, you are simply a hypocrite. Get off your high-horse.

I am not saying one is better than the other, as I know nothing about skoda's (I do know how cheap YUGO's are though) and understand fully what grapeape was saying and it was not a direct rip on either car, just that neither are F1 or true sports cars. I like subaru's, but would not try to beat a C-6 corvette on nearly any race with a WRX. Get over the differences in these cars so the thread can return to "normal" lol.

a b Î Nvidia
August 20, 2007 6:48:18 PM

I refer the honorable gentleman to my earlier comment :lol: 
Mactronix
August 20, 2007 7:03:27 PM

bioshock comes out tomorrow...lets hold off on the arguing til then
August 20, 2007 7:26:39 PM

I speak english better then i write it, and what would you understand if you are that smart from the phrase "skoda's aren't technically cars"?
As for the USA auto industry i know it better then you probably do, as for the truck thing, i remembered it because i saw a sale ad in my country wich showed a beefy chevrolet truck with a 6.6 litre 250hp engine(maybe the ad was wrong). I said America sucks at cars because indirectly ape said that Europe sucks at cars too. And sorry if my spelling and grammar offended you but not everyone is born and raised in the USA.
And for cbhm are you refering to the full version? Because i played the demo today.
a c 225 Î Nvidia
August 20, 2007 7:32:40 PM

Careful mate, Calgary is not in the USA, next door perhaps but not in.

P.S that's not where I am though.
August 20, 2007 7:34:55 PM

cristip60 said:
nd for cbhm are you refering to the full version? Because i played the demo today.


im referring to the retail version released in stores tomorrow. of course, waiting for benchmarks on vista with dx10
August 20, 2007 7:39:10 PM

The demo ran fine on my 8800GTS, on vista with DX10 and max details.
a c 225 Î Nvidia
August 20, 2007 7:42:15 PM

cbhm said:
im referring to the retail version released in stores tomorrow. of course, waiting for benchmarks on vista with dx10

Quote:
2K Games has reached out to our retail partners and is maintaining the street date of August 21st in North America and August 24th in Europe, when BioShock will be available at retailers.


Full article can be found and read here :- http://uk.pc.ign.com/articles/813/813255p1.html
August 20, 2007 7:51:02 PM
August 20, 2007 7:59:09 PM

This is a stupid argument.
August 20, 2007 8:05:20 PM

cristip60 said:
I speak english better then i write it, and what would you understand if you are that smart from the phrase "skoda's aren't technically cars"?

I do not claim to be "that smart" or superior in any way, I am human like the rest here. (bots excluded ;)  ) But that is not what he said at all:

"...Which would be like YUGO and SKODA technically being 'cars' and their abilities vary based on expectation. That someone might think a 'SPORT' edition of these would allow them to compete in F1 or take on a Lamborghini etc. is their own problem."

read it this way: Yugo and Skoda are technically 'cars' but are very different from other 'cars' like an F1 or Lamborghini.

cristip60 said:
As for the USA auto industry i know it better then you probably do, as for the truck thing, i remembered it because i saw a sale ad in my country wich showed a beefy chevrolet truck with a 6.6 litre 250hp engine(maybe the ad was wrong).

Yes, your knowledge is vastly superior to my own because you base it on adverts. :pt1cable: 


cristip60 said:
I said America sucks at cars because indirectly ape said that Europe sucks at cars too.
Well, I already showed above that he did not say that, but to counter your "america sucks @ cars" statement I bring up your earlier comment:

cristip60 said:
Have you ever driven a skoda?
It's not personal but don't make fun of a car manufacturer if you didn't even drive one that's ignorant.

so... have YOU ever driven that "beefy" chevy truck? Have you driven EVERY American car on the market to back up your statement that ALL american cars suck? If not then does your own statement that such ppl are ignorant apply to yourself? :heink: 

cristip60 said:
And sorry if my spelling and grammar offended you but not everyone is born and raised in the USA.

I am not offended at all, I am annoyed. And it is not your spelling and grammar... it is your willful ignorance regardless of language. I already said that my first comments were not against non-native english speakers as I know there are alot on this forum. Most of them are solid contributors or avid learners. Some are (obviously) like you and very obtuse. (or at least you SEEM to be).

Honestly, you can have an opinion that All american cars suck and all euro-cars rock, just don't try to present your "logic" as fact without expecting the gigantic holes within it to be exposed.



I am done with this as there is no further explanation that I can give to bring understanding if you refuse to really see it.
August 20, 2007 8:09:42 PM

Heyyou27 said:
This is a stupid argument.


ya, and I really just intended to jump in and out with my first comment and got sucked in. I am done w/ it though, really going nowhere. lol
August 20, 2007 8:28:30 PM

Yes i understand what you are saying but why did he say it like that he could have used another way of expressing that, something like You cannot expect a yugo or skoda to perform like a f1 car if the car is marketed as a sport edition. In my language what he wrote the first time is kindle offensive that's why I wen't on with this.
As for the Bioshock requirements you don't need a 9800 video card you just need a 7600gt to play it on high on dx9.
a b Î Nvidia
August 20, 2007 8:31:31 PM

cristip60 said:
I wasn't refering to the sport car thing. I was refering to this "Which would be like YUGO and SKODA technically being 'cars'" that's what really hurt me.


Why would it 'hurt' you?

I picked them as my recent low-water mark. They aren't stellar. Had I picked Chevette, Pinto, Geo Metro, Daihatsu, would that 'hurt' you less? PS, I use Euro examples because the lik the in OP's first post is from the UK, would you prefer I used a Fiat Punto / Chevy Aveo and Toyota Echo? Seriously you're getting very worked up about this, and not really being very objective.

Quote:
And can i know what model from skoda where you riding in?


Id' tell you if I bothered asking the model. One was a rusty old beater, the other was a classmate's in University, but like many cars, I don't care if it's a Camary or Tercel unless it's something cool like a Celica AWD Turbo or MR2. Since neither were sexy or special (AWD, convertible), I didn't care, but hey they worked.

Quote:
And i really don't think USA car makers are better then europe ones, i mean the europe division of ford makes great cars, my father owned 2 mondeos and they where great cars. And skoda has a sport model and it's called skoda octavia rs.


I looked up the RS, like I said, 0-6 in 7.3 sec and 149MPH est. top speed, does no impress me as a 'sports car' in the SuperCar / F1 manner I was talking about.

Quote:
I am really sorry for the offtopic but i'm begining to think that you are a car rasist(sorry for the expresion).


Think what you will, but I'm a car snob, not racist.
If you knew me better, you'd know my top 10 favourites are likely 7/8 European cars, and 2 US and maybe 1 Asian (Old Skyline or replaced by new EVO). Heck my favourite companies are the OLD TVR and Lotus (liking the new Exige now that they're available here).

You need to focus, because what I said may have come off as something different but most people who aren't sensitive enough to get 'hurt' understood what I meant.

Quote:
As for the USA auto industry i know it better then you probably do,


Doubtful, but I don't care about the my e-Pen1$ is bigger than yours in a graphics discusion, why would I about a car discussion?

Quote:
as for the truck thing, i remembered it because i saw a sale ad in my country wich showed a beefy chevrolet truck with a 6.6 litre 250hp engine(maybe the ad was wrong).


Or maybe like most US cars that wind up on foreign shores they are de-tuned. So while you both could be right, it would be the EU that made the car suck, not Detroit.

Quote:
I said America sucks at cars because indirectly ape said that Europe sucks at cars too.


No I didn't, but you obviously don't understand context. I picked European cars that suck, even to Europeans. Do you want me to pull out the TopGear where the Skoda employee is wearing a TVR shirt? C'mon, relax and get over it.

You bring me a sub 5 sec 0-100KM/h stock Skoda that can break the 300KPH barrier and then you can correct me. Until then sucky Euro cars, Suck as much as sucky American and sucky Asian cars do, and adding a 'Sport' or 'GT' badge to them won't change that unless they go through the metamorphose that a Renault LeCinq did with the Turbo and Maxi 5.
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