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Should we wait for PCI-e 2.0?

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August 20, 2007 3:08:07 PM

I'm sure by now, everyone knows PCI-e 2.0 mobo will be out in the next few months.

My question is should anyone looking to buy a PC today wait until the support for PCI-e 2.0 on motherboards come out?

More about : wait pci

August 20, 2007 3:36:37 PM

bh I personally cant see it making much difference, PCI-E 2 will increase the bandwidth, but current cards dont even use up all the bandwidth of the current slots, I've bought mine now, but what you do is up to you.

I don think it'll make much difference.
August 20, 2007 3:44:38 PM

Is it possible that the latencies could be lower?

Since I bought in this February, I am waiting.
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August 20, 2007 3:51:49 PM

crazlunatic said:
I'm sure by now, everyone knows PCI-e 2.0 mobo will be out in the next few months.

My question is should anyone looking to buy a PC today wait until the support for PCI-e 2.0 on motherboards come out?


thanks Hatman. I bought an AGP mobo 2years and 10 months ago, and now I am regretting it because I am unable to:
- install DDR2 RAM
- install PCI-e video card
August 20, 2007 4:07:13 PM

PCIe 1.1 and PCIe 2.0 are compatible with each other, you can use a PCI 2.0 graphics card in a PCIe 1.1 slot and vice versa

they've already drafted the spec for PCIe 3.0, so by the time you've waited for PCIe 2.0, PCIe 3.0 will be months away from coming to town as well... and then when that comes out there'll be...

X38 doesn't really offer anything over P35 that's worth worrying about imo
August 20, 2007 4:08:54 PM

From what little I know, the PCIe-2.0 is backwards/Forwards compatible with PCIe. The bandwidth still isn't fully used yet anyway. So, I don't see a problem with buying a PCIe video card now and sticking it in a future PCIe2.0 slot later. (AGP simply can't work with PCIe)
August 20, 2007 4:12:34 PM

Are you guys saying that I can stick a PCIe 2.0 card into a PCI-e 1.1 slot?

Also, the X38 and P35 are the only chipsets out that can work with PCIe 2.0 right now rite?
August 20, 2007 4:38:08 PM

Doesn't PCI-express 2.0 support more power so you don't need to plug more power connectors into the video card?

I'm one of the ones that got stuck with a agp motherboard with no pci express,I'm pretty much going to build a new computer anyway but if I had to do it again I would wait.
August 20, 2007 4:43:35 PM

crazlunatic said:
Are you guys saying that I can stick a PCIe 2.0 card into a PCI-e 1.1 slot?

Also, the X38 and P35 are the only chipsets out that can work with PCIe 2.0 right now rite?

Yes, you can stick a PCI-E 2.0 card into a PCI-E 1.1 slot.
The P35 dosen't support PCI-E 2.0 as far as I know, though it would be good, because I own one. :) 

August 20, 2007 4:47:07 PM

What supports PCI-e 2.0? And if I could stick PCI-e 2.0 into a PCI-e 1.1, then theres probably no point in waiting???
August 20, 2007 4:48:23 PM

crazlunatic said:
Are you guys saying that I can stick a PCIe 2.0 card into a PCI-e 1.1 slot?

Also, the X38 and P35 are the only chipsets out that can work with PCIe 2.0 right now rite?


why would you wait and u know how much longer exactly until pci-e 2 support is out?

I own a vista blog site and the number of visitors is decreasing. My PC makes Vista barely usable and I need to upgrade in order to use Vista full time.
a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2007 4:59:13 PM

The onyl advantage with current cards is the power configuration with the PCIe 2.0 spec supplying 75W more over the PEG slot.

However I expect most early PCIe 2.0 cards that need more juice than can be provided to offer the external power connector option like we currently have.

Long term (like 2+ years) sure it'll matter, but if you want to game now, it's not worth waiting IMO. By the time you want to upgrade again likely you'll want to upgrade the CPU and RAM.

If you're fine gaming with what you have then wait, but if you need to upgrade now (for a game like Bioshock [wait til it arrives before deciding]) then get the best you can at a reasonable price. There will be offerings from all 3 (intel, AMD, nV) for PCIe 2.0 Mobos, but whether it's worth waiting or not we won't know until the PCIe 2.0 cards tstart appearing and adoption takes hold.

Despite your statements about AGP, look how long it took for that to die off, I doubt they'd completely remove support for PCIe 1.1 anytime soon; supposedly the 1.0x stuff is an issue, but that should only present a problem for people looking at current multi-slot configurations, and IMO people who can afford Xfire or SLi can afford a new board when their forced to have it.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
August 20, 2007 5:11:12 PM

vonwombat said:
Yes, you can stick a PCI-E 2.0 card into a PCI-E 1.1 slot.
The P35 dosen't support PCI-E 2.0 as far as I know, though it would be good, because I own one. :) 


Please undertand that even if the PCIe 2 card can physically fit and may operate in the PCIe 1 slot, the PCIe 1 slot does not meet the power or bandwith requirments for PCIe 2 - so you card may be throttled down on power and if its normall output exceeds the lower PCIe 1 bandwith, it too will be scaled back. People should be careful when addressing what systems or chipsets will simply run a PCIe 2 card and which meet the full specs to be able to fully utilize a card meeting the specs. It is obviously causing confusion among readers.
a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2007 5:20:25 PM

I agree, but the power will be more of a concern than bandwidth IMO.

The power would be the one that would actually underclock the card if there's a shortfall, whereas half the bandwidth would experience a slowdown like 8X on the current 1.1 cards, and that's not that huge in comparison, whereas throttling the GPU and VRAM speed enough to make up for the 75W power delivery difference could be huge if it doesn't have the extra power connectors to support the shortfall.
a c 130 U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
August 20, 2007 5:36:33 PM

Sorry this is a bit of a noob question but its something i never actually got around to finding out but is the amount of power supplied to the AGP/PCIE slot standard across all boards and if so what is it/or is it as i suspect a lot more complicated and depends on PSU/MOBO etc
Thanks
Mactronix
August 20, 2007 5:36:38 PM

so ya seeing that it will take so long for pci-e 2 to go mainstream, the most logical thing would be to just go w/ the current pci-e 1.1

one question, can i play bioshock and crysis with current pci-e 1.1?
August 20, 2007 5:52:36 PM

no one knows specifics for crysis. However, I have seen an article at pc.ign.com (the Bioshock review there) where they say that an 8800 GTX runs it quite well. As for Crysis, I would guess PCIe 1.1 will have to run it because the developers said that they were making the game so that old hardware can play the game. The question will be how well it will run on current hardware.
August 20, 2007 6:32:12 PM

I see. i guess the best thing to do is to go w/ current then
a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2007 6:54:45 PM

Yeah the G90 and R680 (or whatever) 'should' be backwards compatible (or else they're cutting their marketing throats), so for those short term games, worry about the rest of the system, there should be PCie 1.1 solutions for you for both of them, and I doubt that 16 lanes at double the speed would make much difference in performance, because they'll likely still be more bound by the VPU and CPU than the communication between both. Heck I wouldn't be surprised if the I/O on the CPU/Memory start causing more problem than the interface with the graphics card.
a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2007 7:03:27 PM

mactronix said:
Sorry this is a bit of a noob question but its something i never actually got around to finding out but is the amount of power supplied to the AGP/PCIE slot standard across all boards and if so what is it


Yes it is standard, with of course the standard fluctuation due to quality (plus you can over-volt a slot).

I'd have to check for the absolute number but IIRC the standard for AGP 3.0 is 40W (AGP 2.0 was 25W IIRC) and for PCIe 1.1 it's 75W for sure, PCIe 2.0 is 150W. I'm not sure what the limitations are on PCIe 1.0x without checking (don't have time, just killing tim on hold).

AGPPro50 is maxed a 50W, and AGPPro110 is maxed at 110W (seems logical, no? :sol:  ).
August 20, 2007 7:11:46 PM

TheGreatGrapeApe said:
I agree, but the power will be more of a concern than bandwidth IMO.

The power would be the one that would actually underclock the card if there's a shortfall, whereas half the bandwidth would experience a slowdown like 8X on the current 1.1 cards, and that's not that huge in comparison, whereas throttling the GPU and VRAM speed enough to make up for the 75W power delivery difference could be huge if it doesn't have the extra power connectors to support the shortfall.

Accoring to the rumors circulating on the Internet, the power consumption of a 9800GTX will be lower than the one of an 8800GTX, due to its 65nm architecture.



so ya seeing that it will take so long for pci-e 2 to go mainstream,
the most logical thing would be to just go w/ the current pci-e 1.1


one question, can i play bioshock and crysis with current pci-e 1.1? said:



so ya seeing that it will take so long for pci-e 2 to go mainstream,
the most logical thing would be to just go w/ the current pci-e 1.1


one question, can i play bioshock and crysis with current pci-e 1.1?


Crysis will run on a PCI-E 1.1 card, an 8800 should give decent performance, and an 9800 should perform very well. Keep in mind that despite being limited by the PCI-E 1.1 bandwidth, the 9800 will perform much better than an 8800, even in a PCI-E 1.1 slot.
Bioshock demo runs maxed out in DX10 on my 8800GTS(PCI-E 1.1, of course) with 30-80 FPS.

a b U Graphics card
August 20, 2007 7:50:28 PM

1738596,21,142850 said:
Accoring to the rumors circulating on the Internet, the power consumption of a 9800GTX will be lower than the one of an 8800GTX, due to its 65nm architecture.

True but it's still going to pull more than 75W, so if it's on PCIe it'll need an extra power plug even if the GF9xxx series can pull under 150W and not require a power plug for when running on PCIe 2.0. The main thing will be to ensure that that extra 75W is covered for the PCIe 1.1 option regardless of whether the PCIe2.0 option needs another connector or not.
[/quote]
August 20, 2007 8:21:05 PM

I dont see a reason to wait as the 2.0 cards will work in 1.1 slots.

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/03/27/pci_express_scal...

According to this article it took a long time for the PCI-E 1.0 video cards to use the 16x of 1.0, and it still doesnt look like thier using all of it. The next gen video cards will probably take a while to use double that bandwidth, so any performance hit will likely be small.

As for power I am willing to wager the first 2.0 cards will have plugs on them for the 1.1 slot users, as not doing so would limit thier market a lot.
a c 169 U Graphics card
a c 135 V Motherboard
August 20, 2007 8:46:32 PM

PCIE-2 will work in P35 boards (at least asus ) :
http://xbitlabs.com/news/mainboards/display/20070817093...

Note that these limitations have been revealed only for the Blitz mainboard series that uses CrossLinx chip. Other Asus mainboards on Intel P35 chipset should have no problems with PCI Express 2.0 graphics cards support.
August 20, 2007 8:51:47 PM

what other board will PCIe-2 work on?
August 20, 2007 9:04:14 PM

PCI-E 2.0 cards will work on all boards that have PCI-E 1.1. However, only card installed on the X38 will benefit from the PCI-E 2.0 bandwidth.
August 20, 2007 10:08:16 PM

wat about p35
August 20, 2007 11:16:39 PM

prodystopian said:
no one knows specifics for crysis. However, I have seen an article at pc.ign.com (the Bioshock review there) where they say that an 8800 GTX runs it quite well. As for Crysis, I would guess PCIe 1.1 will have to run it because the developers said that they were making the game so that old hardware can play the game. The question will be how well it will run on current hardware.


Its not about the graphics card connection to the motherboard thats is important, what matter is that it meets the hardware requirements, A minimum requirement for Crysis is a Geforce 6600 with at least P4 2.8Ghz equivalent processor and a gig of RAM. which can all be met by an agp mobo.

Crysis Requirements


Minimum Requirements
CPU: Athlon 64 3000+/Intel 2.8ghz
Graphics: Nvidia 6600 or ATI X1600 - Shader Model 2.0
RAM: 1GB
HDD: 6GB
Internet: 256k+
Optical Drive: DVD
Software: DX9 with Windows XP / Vista


Recommended Requirements
CPU: Dual-Core CPU (Athlon X2 / Pentium D / Core 2 Duo)
Graphics: Nvidia 7800 or ATI X1800 (SM 3.0)
RAM: 1.5GB+
HDD: 6GB
Internet: 512k+ (128k+ upstream)
Optical Drive: DVD
Software: DX9 with Windows XP / Vista

http://www.crysis-online.com/Information/System%20Requi...
August 20, 2007 11:38:07 PM

if you go on the link it says those are estimates
August 21, 2007 2:54:26 AM

crazlunatic said:
so ya seeing that it will take so long for pci-e 2 to go mainstream, the most logical thing would be to just go w/ the current pci-e 1.1

one question, can i play bioshock and crysis with current pci-e 1.1?


To answer half of your question, I just played the Bioshock demo with my 8800GTS 320MB (using beta forceware 163.44) on DX9 all on max @ 1280x960 res and I never dropped below 45fps and was usually around 55-75fps sometimes going as high as 85-90, they did an amazing job optimizing that thing.
August 21, 2007 3:39:44 AM

i might as well as... im also waiting for:
nehalem
SSD drives that work better*
eRam? or at least better ddr3

im gonna buy it when i go to college next year, i hope nehalem is out by then though...
August 21, 2007 4:43:20 AM

i know anything below 70 fps is garbage for games like cs. But you say 45 is good for Bioshock?

whats nehalem? the next-gen intel cpus?
August 21, 2007 5:04:48 AM

yessir it is. after penryn supposedly
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
August 21, 2007 5:16:52 AM

Maziar said:
PCIE-2 will work in P35 boards (at least asus ) :
http://xbitlabs.com/news/mainboards/display/20070817093...

Note that these limitations have been revealed only for the Blitz mainboard series that uses CrossLinx chip. Other Asus mainboards on Intel P35 chipset should have no problems with PCI Express 2.0 graphics cards support.


I think it is very misleading to say the " ASUS mainborads on Intel P35 chipset should have no problems with PCI Express 2.0 graphics card support" when it will be throttling them back to the limits of PCI Express 1.0 - half the bandwith - and that is assuming the electrical input requirements - whatever they may end up being - can be met by MB and PSUs designed to he PCIe 1 standard. The article clearly points out that the cards will be subject to the PCIe 1 constraints.
August 21, 2007 7:02:03 AM

I don't wait for anything unless I know something is coming out very soon that will either make my build ALOT cheaper(IE AMD releases a new CPU and Intel will cut prices to match) or I KNOW I'll use the new feature extensively. Waiting for PCIe2 is pointless IMO. DDR-3 is out, and how many people are rushing out to buy DDR3? Very few. Besides that PCIe isn't being bottlenecked. What IS being bottlenecked is the number of devices I can buy that CAN go in those slots. When was the last time you saw an audio card, network card, or 1 of the other cards that acually uses a PCIe slot? Aside from RAID controllers and Video Cards, I haven't seen one yet. I'm sure there's a handful, but I don't consider a 'handful' to be of much significance. When I go to Best Buy and 1/2 the cards they sell are PCIe then I'll care. Until then alot of us are still stuck with the PCI bus anyway.
a b U Graphics card
August 21, 2007 7:37:52 AM

Ah damn, my mobo is PCIe 1.0a methinks. I will need to upgrade everything anyway coz a single core s939 is not really a good match for, say, a 9800GTX (assuming I robbed a bank and could afford one).
August 21, 2007 8:30:50 AM

Well, is suppose when X38 will be out, i will be getting one, since my athlon64 is screaming for a change (mobo issues :S ). Just bought a 8800 GTS before the announcement of pci-e 2.0 but oh well, is enough for me. If i ever need more power, i will get another GTS for SLI.
August 21, 2007 3:11:08 PM

ya pci-e will take a while to go mainstream and cards will prolly be all for over 600 USD for a while.

When will amd release new chips?
August 21, 2007 5:28:20 PM

crazlunatic said:
i know anything below 70 fps is garbage for games like cs. But you say 45 is good for Bioshock?

whats nehalem? the next-gen intel cpus?


Well a jawdropping shooter like Bioshock in my opinion dropping no lower than 45 fps with 55-70 constant fps is VERY impressive considering it's on max visual settings.
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
September 4, 2007 9:55:58 PM

you kidz actually read TH articles or just chat in here? i see a lot of rumors flying...as far as whether or not to waih for pci-e 2.0...if your system is defunct now for games. by all means upgrade now and deal with the performace hit later, i had to when i got sli with two x16 at x8. if you get an SLI based system with rev. 1.0, make sure you have a full 32 lanes at x16 x16 full, cause a 8800gtx does use all the bandwidth of two lanes at x8 phys x16. the 2.0 spec allows x16 to be equal to twice the 1.0 rev. aka its more like a noneexistant 32x speed if compared to todays 1.0 rev. the first few next gen cards should work without a hitch, or at least minor bumps in the coding. Me personally...i am holding on a build. I am running a fx 60, 2 gigs, 4 raptors, 8800gtx, x-fi...etc. I am waiting for the holidays and the new mobos to hit the shelf. not only will some be pci-e 2.0 rev. depending on whether i chose intel or amd (waiting on the barcolona's to ramp up a little)..i could be looking at the differance of am2+/ socket F update and HT 3.0...or the possiblity of penryn based board or even a skull trail if i hold off a bit longer. question is do you want to replace your mobo in 1 1/2 to 2 years or maybe have it hold for 3+. your call!
September 4, 2007 10:32:01 PM

You can wait for it, but you'll be waiting even longer for games that need/use it... Maybe your kids will enjoy it when they are old. AGP hung on forever, remember?
September 4, 2007 10:49:42 PM

atomicWAR said:
you kidz actually read TH articles or just chat in here? i see a lot of rumors flying...as far as whether or not to waih for pci-e 2.0...if your system is defunct now for games. by all means upgrade now and deal with the performace hit later, i had to when i got sli with two x16 at x8. if you get an SLI based system with rev. 1.0, make sure you have a full 32 lanes at x16 x16 full, cause a 8800gtx does use all the bandwidth of two lanes at x8 phys x16. the 2.0 spec allows x16 to be equal to twice the 1.0 rev. aka its more like a noneexistant 32x speed if compared to todays 1.0 rev. the first few next gen cards should work without a hitch, or at least minor bumps in the coding. Me personally...i am holding on a build. I am running a fx 60, 2 gigs, 4 raptors, 8800gtx, x-fi...etc. I am waiting for the holidays and the new mobos to hit the shelf. not only will some be pci-e 2.0 rev. depending on whether i chose intel or amd (waiting on the barcolona's to ramp up a little)..i could be looking at the differance of am2+/ socket F update and HT 3.0...or the possiblity of penryn based board or even a skull trail if i hold off a bit longer. question is do you want to replace your mobo in 1 1/2 to 2 years or maybe have it hold for 3+. your call!

Yes, you silly old man... some of us actually do read the articles. I agree with most of your logic, but with the pace of new processor/chipset combos that are due to come out in the next 18 months, everyone trying to even keep up will have to replace their Mobos by then even if they do buy now. In the next 18 months, you'll see the AM3 sockets and who cares whether or not Intel changes sockets, because you'll have to buy a new chipset for each one of their new CPU's coming out to make them work the way they're designed.
Honestly, if you're going to buy even the highest performing GPU right now (or even when the 9800's supposedly come out) then it won't really make a difference if you're running PCI2.0 or not. Pending on what the GreatApe has extolled being correct (which is usually the case), I can't see Nvidia or DAMMIT not putting the additional power connectors on their next-gen cards. That would be just idiotic considering that the power requirements will be the only difference in the slots for the near-term.
What you said about ensuring that you've got x16/x16 for SLI is right on the money, though. Too many people are only running x16/x8, or worse x8/x8, and not even noticing what they're losing in performance just due to ignorance about their boards.
Eh... who knows what kind of bandwidth the new 9800's will need. No one on here has even seen a full retail production piece in real life, so I doubt seriously that we'll know anything concrete until about 30 days before launch.
September 4, 2007 11:56:36 PM

vonwombat said:
Accoring to the rumors circulating on the Internet, the power consumption of a 9800GTX will be lower than the one of an 8800GTX, due to its 65nm architecture.


Crysis will run on a PCI-E 1.1 card, an 8800 should give decent performance, and an 9800 should perform very well. Keep in mind that despite being limited by the PCI-E 1.1 bandwidth, the 9800 will perform much better than an 8800, even in a PCI-E 1.1 slot.
Bioshock demo runs maxed out in DX10 on my 8800GTS(PCI-E 1.1, of course) with 30-80 FPS.

>.<... My 8800GTS (640MB) only pushes 80FPS on Bioshock DX9

Full system specs:
BFG 650W PSU
E6600 @ stock
EVGA 8800GTS 640mb
WD 160GB HD
Gigabyte P35C-DS3R motherboard
a b U Graphics card
a b V Motherboard
September 5, 2007 1:06:16 AM

cyberjock said:
I don't wait for anything unless I know something is coming out very soon... Waiting for PCIe2 is pointless IMO. .


Pointless? New boards will be out in a couple of weeks - they have already been reported on - just waiting for their release dates. PCIe will be the new standard for several years. Most cards may not be able to use the full bandwith now- but in a year or so they will certainly be regularly exceeding the limits of todays chips. If you buy a new board every year and plan to buy another one in another year, then it probably makes little difference either way. But if you are planning to build a new system that you will use for two to three years - and be able to upgrade the graphics card and CPU to 45 nano cards - then PCIe2 is the way to go.

So you can be patient for a couple weeks... or rush out now and buy a motherboard that might be obsolete by the time you get your system assembled.
September 5, 2007 1:52:24 AM

Ara23 said:
>.<... My 8800GTS (640MB) only pushes 80FPS on Bioshock DX9

Full system specs:
BFG 650W PSU
E6600 @ stock
EVGA 8800GTS 640mb
WD 160GB HD
Gigabyte P35C-DS3R motherboard


This can play BioShock 80fps ? MAX settings (for DX9) ?
1280x1024 + ?

Impressive. Most Impressive.
September 5, 2007 2:07:51 AM

i play bioshock on max settings with a 7900gt and pentium D 2.8 and get damn good fps. on 1280x1024 resolution that is. it is very optimized.
September 5, 2007 2:33:48 AM

1280x1024 yes, that's my screens resolution
September 5, 2007 3:08:56 PM

Ara23 said:
1280x1024 yes, that's my screens resolution

Good to hear,
Then my X1950XT should not have any trouble.
September 5, 2007 4:51:27 PM

My average is 70-75fps in Bioshock with my 8800gts 640mb at 1680x1040 or whatever the resolution works out to be. It's not quite maxxed out on the eye candy, but I have most settings on maximum. I love this game. Very nice even with my "Piece of Shiite" AMD x2 as all you Intel fanboys would infer.
System specs:

AMD x2 6000 at stock
2gb G Skill Ram at 4-3-5-4 1T stable
PNY 8800 gts 640mb oc'd to 630/1800 (runs a cool 73C on stock air at 100%)
MSI K9N Platinum 570 SLI MB
SB Audigy Platinum with Audigy drive (circa 2000)
Gateway 22" LCD
Win XP Home :lol: 
a c 169 U Graphics card
a c 135 V Motherboard
September 5, 2007 4:57:10 PM

X2 6000 isnt piece of shiite , its a pretty good cpu
!