Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Seriously thinking of going PPC because I've just had it with the
instability of Palm OS (from 3.5 to 5.2), but seeing as M$ makes it I
wonder if I won't be jumping out of the fryingpan into the fire.
What's everybody think?

I'm also wondering if it won't have way less
shareware/freeware/everythingware/warez available than Palm OS does -
sorta like PC vs Mac in that respect.

Personal exps. very welcome, but I'm thinking somebody here might know of
a good comparison on a website somewhere (not one of the 8zillion stupid
web forum hits? - jeez I loath web forums!) but more like a chart or table
to really visualize, concise, unbiased.
Anyone know of one?
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Me too was thinking to switch.
If you want some Pros:
VGA-screen now. More computing power. Better integration in the desktop environment(given you are
using Windows). More versatility. Palm is very much concentrating on basic productivity. PPC has
more vendors and a more widespread field in which you can use it.
Software side is nearly as much as Palm. But it tends to have more shareware than freeware.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

In article <jlgp119cpckfu5efph773c22on959ejsjt@4ax.com>,
see.my.sig.4.addr@nowhere.com.invalid wrote:
> Seriously thinking of going PPC because I've just had it with the
> instability of Palm OS (from 3.5 to 5.2), but seeing as M$ makes it I
> wonder if I won't be jumping out of the fryingpan into the fire.
> What's everybody think?

I haven't had that much trouble with Palm instability - Palm IIIe,
IIIxe, Handera 330, and Visor Prism at various times (3.0-4.1).
Depends partly on the software you put on it. I've only been forced
to hard reset about three times in three years, and I keep backups
so that's not a huge deal. I have seen a lot of complaints about
PPC stability, and from what I hear ActiveSync is just not as
reliable as Palm's Hotsync. I only got to play with a PPC for a
short time, though, so I can't really comment on that.

I don't think either are "better" per se, but they focus on different
things. PalmOS isn't multitasking, which limits what it can do without
very clever programming, but the UI is very well optimized for a small
screen. WinCE can multitask, which is nice, but the UI is often
inherited from a desktop and doesn't necessarily work well for a
smaller screen. (Note that even a VGA-resolution screen doesn't totally
solve this... the pixels get *really really small* when the screen is
that dense.)

A modern Palm is a scaled-up organizer. A PPC is sort of a scaled-down
laptop. I'd suggest seeing if you could borrow a PPC for a while and
see if it does what *you* want and/or need...

--
Sincerely,

Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317

The above opinions are probably not those of Compuware Corp.
Yet.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Oh, if you're preferring to play games you should go with Windwos Mobile. The games are far more
attracting than Palm. Palm only offers the Zodiac which is great but has only a limited series of
games.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Ray Ingles napsal(a):

> I haven't had that much trouble with Palm instability - Palm IIIe,
> IIIxe, Handera 330, and Visor Prism at various times (3.0-4.1).
> Depends partly on the software you put on it. I've only been forced
> to hard reset about three times in three years, and I keep backups
> so that's not a huge deal.

Obviously you have absolutely none experience with OS5.

> I have seen a lot of complaints about
> PPC stability, and from what I hear ActiveSync is just not as

How long ago? I had had an iPAQ H3130 in 2000, and it crashed nowhere
near as often as my new T3 does regularly. I had to softreset about once
a week, but I do have to stab the T3 in the back about 6 times a DAY!
The only apps I use and have installed are CardBackup+CardExport2,
AdobeReader (but no docs currently), the latest version of AvantGo,
Docs2Go 6.761, MobiPocket 4.8, PasswordsPlus, Plucker, Metro (public
transportation router), SmartMaps, Route (Europe road map with router),
Yanoff, ICQ, PiLoc and a driver for UniversalWirelessKeyboard. The
strangest is that it crashes almost exclusively with the FACTORY
applications, namely the SMS.

> reliable as Palm's Hotsync. I only got to play with a PPC for a
> short time, though, so I can't really comment on that.
>
> I don't think either are "better" per se, but they focus on different
> things. PalmOS isn't multitasking, which limits what it can do without
> very clever programming, but the UI is very well optimized for a small
> screen. WinCE can multitask, which is nice, but the UI is often
> inherited from a desktop and doesn't necessarily work well for a
> smaller screen. (Note that even a VGA-resolution screen doesn't totally
> solve this... the pixels get *really really small* when the screen is
> that dense.)

Don't mix CE and PocketPC. They're completely different systems with
different GUI for a different target and with different architecture and
functionality.
CE is for devices like thin-client desktop terminals, handhelds with
large screen and a keyboard, and for embedded devices like onboard
computers for cars.
PPC is for PDA's and its GUI is optimized for small screen and the use
of stylus.
Saying that WinCE isn't an OS suitable for PDA's is like saying that a
pickup truck is a poor choice for cart racing.

> A modern Palm is a scaled-up organizer. A PPC is sort of a scaled-down
> laptop. I'd suggest seeing if you could borrow a PPC for a while and
> see if it does what *you* want and/or need...

You're obviously forgetting what are today's PDA's used for. When you
market a PDA and say it's capable of replacing ones notebook computer
(which is exactly what PalmOne states on the T3 and T5 flyers), you'll
very quickly come to a conclusion that a beefed-up organizer doesn't
stand up to the task.

Mark
--
The last easy day was yesterday.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

In article <cvl015$4v3$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz>, Marek Stanìk wrote:
> Ray Ingles napsal(a):
>
>> I haven't had that much trouble with Palm instability - Palm IIIe,
>> IIIxe, Handera 330, and Visor Prism at various times (3.0-4.1).
>
> Obviously you have absolutely none experience with OS5.

Uh, yeah. That *is* what I said, after all. :->

>> I have seen a lot of complaints about
>> PPC stability, and from what I hear ActiveSync is just not as
>
> How long ago?

My last Handera 330 was stolen in December. I spent some time looking
at various options (including PPC) and decided for my needs another
H330 was best. While I was Googling I saw multiple reports. Also, at
work a year back Microsoft gave a lot of developers where I work PPC
units for free (PPC 2002). Some of the developers I talked to had real
problems with ActiveSync, some none.

> I had to softreset about once a week, but I do have to stab the T3
> in the back about 6 times a DAY!

Huh. I've had a lot of resets in the last few days, but only because
I've been developing and testing a system hack. Gotta expect some
problems there. :->

> ...and a driver for UniversalWirelessKeyboard.

Check for updated drivers there. A bit of Googling turned up problems
with the T3 and that item.

> Don't mix CE and PocketPC. They're completely different systems with
> different GUI for a different target and with different architecture and
> functionality.

I was speaking of the kernel. The guts of PocketPC is Windows CE, an
entirely different codebase from the NT/200x/XP family. Yes, the PPC
has different UI libraries, but when speaking about multitasking the
OS kernel is relevant.

> Saying that WinCE isn't an OS suitable for PDA's is like saying that a
> pickup truck is a poor choice for cart racing.

I *didn't* say that. I said that the GUI is "often inherited from a
desktop." Word and Outlook, for example, were designed with bigger
screens in mind, and had to be shoehorned into a smaller space for
their Pocket equivalents.

> You're obviously forgetting what are today's PDA's used for. When you
> market a PDA and say it's capable of replacing ones notebook computer
> (which is exactly what PalmOne states on the T3 and T5 flyers), you'll
> very quickly come to a conclusion that a beefed-up organizer doesn't
> stand up to the task.

I'm not in marketing. My Handera 330 meets all my needs better than
more recent devices. (One biggie... battery life is orders of magnitude
greater.) It almost certainly wouldn't meet *your* needs. I told the OP
to find what would meet *his* needs, that's all. What it says on the
marketing flyer isn't relevant to that.

--
Sincerely,

Ray Ingles (313) 227-2317

"When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb."
- Anonymous

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

"Marek Stanìk" <marekdotstanek@dont.bother.to.spam> wrote in message
news:cvl015$4v3$1@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
> Ray Ingles napsal(a):
>
SNIP

>
> How long ago? I had had an iPAQ H3130 in 2000, and it crashed nowhere near
> as often as my new T3 does regularly. I had to softreset about once a
> week, but I do have to stab the T3 in the back about 6 times a DAY! The
> only apps I use and have installed are CardBackup+CardExport2, AdobeReader
> (but no docs currently), the latest version of AvantGo, Docs2Go 6.761,
> MobiPocket 4.8, PasswordsPlus, Plucker, Metro (public transportation
> router), SmartMaps, Route (Europe road map with router), Yanoff, ICQ,
> PiLoc and a driver for UniversalWirelessKeyboard. The strangest is that it
> crashes almost exclusively with the FACTORY applications, namely the SMS.
>
SNIP

I think you're experiences with Palm are the exception not the rule. I have
had a T3 for about 17 months now. I do occasionally have to hit the reset
button due to program failures but nowhere near 6 times a day, not even 6
times a month! Hotsynch has worked flawlessly from day 1. I don't use all
the applications you use so you might consider removing applications one at
a time to see if perhaps you have a bad one. The apps I use besides the
built-in ones are Palm Reader, D2G, Street Atlas Handheld 2005, Versamail
(w/Bluetooth phone), BTtoggle, and a couple of games. It's usually the games
that crash the Palm more than anything and in one case I know that it's poor
programming by the game developer.

Palm is not perfect, that's for sure, but I would not call it unstable
either.

To the Original Poster,

If gaming is a priority for you I would consider the Zodiac, a Palm based
unit. This unit has better controls for gaming, dual SD slots, bluetooth,
graphics acceleration and it runs all the Palm applications like Calendar,
Contacts etc...

Cheers
TC

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Tony Clark napsal(a):

> I think you're experiences with Palm are the exception not the rule. I have
> had a T3 for about 17 months now. I do occasionally have to hit the reset
> button due to program failures but nowhere near 6 times a day, not even 6
> times a month! Hotsynch has worked flawlessly from day 1. I don't use all
> the applications you use so you might consider removing applications one at
> a time to see if perhaps you have a bad one. The apps I use besides the

I have this scheduled for the second week of March. Just too much work
right now. But even finding the faulty app won't help me much, as I use
all of them often and I'd have to find a replacement.

> built-in ones are Palm Reader, D2G, Street Atlas Handheld 2005, Versamail
> (w/Bluetooth phone), BTtoggle, and a couple of games. It's usually the games
> that crash the Palm more than anything and in one case I know that it's poor
> programming by the game developer.

Interestingly, none of the games I have installed is causing that :-)
They event weren't on the device until last Thursday. If it's
app-related, it's some of the apps, and AFAIK none of them is native to
OS5; they're all OS4.x. I'm afraid that's the root cause and even
thinking of having to find replacements makes me feel sick.

Mark
--
The last easy day was yesterday.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

Ray Ingles napsal(a):

>>...and a driver for UniversalWirelessKeyboard.
> Check for updated drivers there. A bit of Googling turned up problems
> with the T3 and that item.

Just FYI, I'm the one who posted a working solution for T3 to the
PalmOne support forum :-)

> I *didn't* say that. I said that the GUI is "often inherited from a
> desktop." Word and Outlook, for example, were designed with bigger
> screens in mind, and had to be shoehorned into a smaller space for
> their Pocket equivalents.

Fortunately I personally don't mind having only the skelet of the
document available in the PDA. Some of the functions of for example
Docs2Go (like the ability to sync a document that's been updated both on
a desktop AND the PDA) aren't important to me. But I really miss a
working system level national support in the PalmOS.

>>You're obviously forgetting what are today's PDA's used for. When you
>>market a PDA and say it's capable of replacing ones notebook computer
>>(which is exactly what PalmOne states on the T3 and T5 flyers), you'll
>>very quickly come to a conclusion that a beefed-up organizer doesn't
>>stand up to the task.
> I'm not in marketing. My Handera 330 meets all my needs better than
> more recent devices. (One biggie... battery life is orders of magnitude

Guess you "like" the marketing departments as much as I do :-)

> greater.) It almost certainly wouldn't meet *your* needs. I told the OP

About a year ago it would have, and with some limitations it still might
now. But I'd have a big problem getting used to a slower device :-( If
only the T3 wasn't that much buggy :-(

Mark
--
The last easy day was yesterday.

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops,comp.sys.handhelds (More info?)

"Marek Stanìk" <marekdotstanek@dont.bother.to.spam> wrote in message
news:cvt19q$1cpm$3@ns.felk.cvut.cz...
SNIP

> Interestingly, none of the games I have installed is causing that :-) They
> event weren't on the device until last Thursday. If it's app-related, it's
> some of the apps, and AFAIK none of them is native to OS5; they're all
> OS4.x. I'm afraid that's the root cause and even thinking of having to
> find replacements makes me feel sick.
>
The game that I have the issue with is Legacy, a first person RPG style
game. The main issue is if the T3 is not fully extended when you start up
the game the bottom half of the screen stays dark and you cannot get to the
menu selections to abort the game. Once you have the T3 open it seems to
play just fine, it's just that I always seem to start the game from the
closed position causing me to have to reboot the T3 to recover.

TC

Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 19:14:03 +0100, "Andreas Hopp" <123_Hopp@web.de>
spewed:
>Me too was thinking to switch.
>If you want some Pros:
>VGA-screen now. More computing power. Better integration in the desktop environment(given you are
>using Windows). More versatility. Palm is very much concentrating on basic productivity. PPC has
>more vendors and a more widespread field in which you can use it.
>Software side is nearly as much as Palm. But it tends to have more shareware than freeware.
>
Ya, I guess Palm is only up to 320x? now? Course, it's so small, there's
a practical limit to more res. being better.

I'm surprised it has much shareware too, but better than what I expected
as it's downhill from M$ - who's name should be listed as a synonym for
greed in the dictionary

Another Q I thought of that I should be asking - will it's desktop PIM
software run on W95, and can it sync IR.
Since M$ is trying to force XP, it might not.
Is it's version of Palm Desktop type program any good?
I use (and love) that, and did even before I had a Palm.
It'd also have to allow perfect importing of the PD data (like with no
screwups, misfilings, or data loss).

One vote for Palm as far as software is I've heard Nintendo is releasing a
Gameboy emulator for Palm. Haven't heard mention of it for PPC.
That would be a serious sway toward Palm, because I use it alot for games.
Handhelds are the last bastion of old school side scroller score based
arcade type games, and others where fun and playability is above glitzy
graphics multiplayer "rpg" shooters which dominate the PC.
I actually found a version of that old Serpentine game from Apple II days.
Remember that?! I love that game!
Now if somebody will just do Dino Eggs or Hard Hat Mack

--
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On 23 Feb 2005 14:21:30 -0500, Ray Ingles <sorceror@dmc22317.local>
spewed:
>> Seriously thinking of going PPC because I've just had it with the
>> instability of Palm OS (from 3.5 to 5.2), but seeing as M$ makes it I
>> wonder if I won't be jumping out of the fryingpan into the fire.
>> What's everybody think?
>
> I haven't had that much trouble with Palm instability - Palm IIIe,
>IIIxe, Handera 330, and Visor Prism at various times (3.0-4.1).
>Depends partly on the software you put on it. I've only been forced
>to hard reset about three times in three years, and I keep backups
>so that's not a huge deal. I have seen a lot of complaints about
>PPC stability, and from what I hear ActiveSync is just not as
>reliable as Palm's Hotsync. I only got to play with a PPC for a
>short time, though, so I can't really comment on that.
>
Uhoh. Guess maybe it is like I feared - out of the fryingpan
Man, just seems like nobody can make ANYTHING of quality anymore.

> I don't think either are "better" per se, but they focus on different
>things. PalmOS isn't multitasking, which limits what it can do without
>very clever programming, but the UI is very well optimized for a small

Ah, now that's a good feature for PPC.

>screen. WinCE can multitask, which is nice, but the UI is often
>inherited from a desktop and doesn't necessarily work well for a
>smaller screen. (Note that even a VGA-resolution screen doesn't totally
>solve this... the pixels get *really really small* when the screen is
>that dense.)
>
Ya, that's what I was thinking. Can't just throw more power/res. at it,
requires actual thought to usability - not something M$ is good at.

> A modern Palm is a scaled-up organizer. A PPC is sort of a scaled-down
>laptop. I'd suggest seeing if you could borrow a PPC for a while and
>see if it does what *you* want and/or need...

Ya, I wish. Dunno anybody here.
Too bad you can't rent them
Far as looking before I leap, can you get the desktop PIM for free d/l
like you can (at least you could at one time) with Palm Desktop?
That's a major factor, so I wanna make sure I like it and it works well.

So far, sounding like a tossup if reports of PPC's busyness are as common
as you've heard.
Sometimes I get so fed up with Palms instability I've come a hairsbreadth
from throwing it against the wall! And I'll put up with alot of crashing,
I used to LIKE W3.1 and stuck with it even after 95 was out for a couple
years, and it crashed every day! But, you didn't lose anything and could
fix things, unlike 9x. Anyway, I digress.


--
_____________________________________________________
For email response, or CC, please mailto:see.my.sig.4.addr(at)bigfoot.com.
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Archived from groups: comp.sys.palmtops (More info?)

On Wednesday, an unnamed person wrote:

> What's everybody think?

I think I can put some un-biased views over. I have gone back
and forth between PalmOS and Windows Mobile for a while now:

Palm Pro
|
Palm IIIx
|
iPAQ 3650
|
Sony Clie (PalmOS)
|
iPAQ 1940
|
Treo 600 (PalmOS)
|
Dell Axim X50v

PalmOS and Windows Mobile are two very different things. One
is very much a "get it done simply and easily" thing (PalmOS)
and the other (Wndows Mobile) is "let's try and do everything
the desktop does". *If* all you're looking for is basic PIM
functions then either will do, though PalmOS is cheaper and
is probably still more reliable.

My experience was that PalmOS was very stable, whereas Windows
Mobile needs a soft-reset once every three or four hours to
keep it quick. Having said that, it could be that I installed
more additional software to Windows devices than I did to Palm
devices and third-party software tends to cause more problems
than the built-in stuff.

Until about a year ago, I would have been happy with either
a PalmOS or Windows device. However, as I do more and more on
my desktop, I find that I want to do more and more on my hand
held. So, more photo viewing/editing, more mp3 playback, more
movie watching, etc. These things are much better to do on
the Windows devices than the palm, due to faster processors,
much bigger displays (my VGA Dell screen is lovely) and the
fact that you can move files from the desktop to the Windows
device without having to do any kind of silly conversion to
the Palm format. Bog-standard JPG, GIF, AVI, MP3 files all
work and all work well, and you can use a real directory
tree just like a desktop to store your files. Not like the
silly PalmOS was of keeping things in database files well away
from the prying eyes of the user!

For me, Windows Mobile is just more configurable and easier
to understand what is going on underneath the hood.

Some other points that people talk about:

Activesync -v- Palm Hotsync. Many people say that the Palm
Hotsync is better than MS Activesync. Personally, I have had
no trouble at all with either of them on any device. Not a
single problems caused by either of them. All I CAN say is
that the MS Activesync keeps things sync'd as you make the
changes, whereas the Palm Hotsync makes you press a button
on the cradle to sync and if you forget to do that and leave
the desktop, then you're not taking the latest version of a
file/database with you.

Palm Desktop - I used to use that as well. It was a good, if
basic PIM application. However in my view, MS Outlook is a much
better application with far, far more power. If you have Office
then you probably have Outlook. If not, all Windows Mobile
devices come with Outlook 2002 on a CD. Not sure if it will
run on Win95/98 though.

I can sync using IR if I wanted to, or via USB or Blutooth or
over my wireless home network.

Palm -> Windows data. Easy enough to do. Install Outlook and
on the Palm CD you'll find an application to enable you to
sync the Palm to Outook instead of Palm Desktop. Do that for
one occasion. Then you can install Acivesync and sync your
Windows Mobile device to Outlook and everything that was on
your Palm (well, PIM data) will be on your Windows Mobile
device, via Outlook.

As far as gaming goes - there are Gameboy and Playstation
emuators for Windows Mobile, as well as C64 and others. I
have no experience of using any of them, but others report
that they can work well. Of course, with new handhelds like
the Axim X50V having a dedicated 16MB graphics chip, it's
only a matter of time before new games start to appear on
Windows Mobile that match those on the Playstation/GameCube
at the moment. Maybe not PS2 and Xbox though....

Third party software....there's just as much for the Windows
platform now I think. There was a time when PalmOS had far,
far more applications available than Windows Mobile. That is
not the case now, but I'd agree that there is less freeware
for Windows Mobile. The software will cost you more, but in
my opinion, the average quality of each bit of software is a
lot higher than PalmOS. Granted there are a lot of very good
and polished bits of software for PalmOS, however there is a
hell of a lot of hobbyist, unfinished and just plain bad
software as well. In my view, there is more finished and well
supported Windows Mobile software and fewer free, poor apps.

Of course, there are places where one can get free versions
of those expensive Windows Mobile applications to evaluate
before spending all that cash.

The VGA screens are lovely - but you're right in that there
is a paractical limitation on resolution on a handheld. But
it's here that I think Microsoft actually did something right
for a change. As a default, the VGA screens only show the
same as the smaller, 240x320 screens. They ust show it all
so much clearer. Text is like it's printed on paper, and it
is because it's almost 200dpi on the screen, compared to the
normal 100dpi of a laptop screen. It means text can be a lot
smaller and still readable. You can set the display using a
third-party app to actually show 480x640 but of course, all
the screen elements are a quarter of the size and can be a
bit hard to read. It is nice using it in landscape for web
browsing at 640x480 though.....

I run my own business doing web design and IT support for a
number of small companies local to me. I support a number of
people on PalmOS and a larger number on Windows Mobile. They
all do the same PIM functions, but those that use Windows
Mobile tend to do MORE with their handhelds. I normally tell
first timers to go Palm as it is easier to get to grips with
and harder to mess up (you can't edit the registry on a Palm
device!). I tend to tell people upgrading or replacin