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Mixing IDE & SATA without using RAID

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December 15, 2007 4:27:41 AM

I'm going crazy and hope someone could assist. I recently bought a barebones to upgrade my existing system. My challange is to keep my main IDE as primary/boot with the existing O/S (XP Pro) and add on 3 additional IDE drives using SATA coverters. The other 3 drives have data on them and are not multi-partitioned. In addition, I would like to do this (if possible) without using a RAID setup. The main reason is that I have each drive used specifically for one thing. I could move all date from all drives to a 1TB external drive, create the RAID setup, partition and move back, but it seems too labor intensive. Is it even possible to achieve what I am attempting?

To keep things simple, I have disconnected my CD/DVD from slave IDE, left my main IDE (120GB) as master and tried the assembly with just one additional IDE (200GB SATA convert) for now. I have tried with and without the jumper in the 200GB, checked the BIOS each time to make sure that boot will be from 120GB and still no luck. When booting, I get past the BIOS/system check (which now takes forever), I get to the XP Loading page, the bar moves left to right but never will progress to my desktop.

Any suggestions??

More about : mixing ide sata raid

a b G Storage
December 15, 2007 5:08:47 AM

There are couple of things going on here. As I understand it, you have a 120GB boot drive that you are moving from an older computer to a newer one you just built. Are then want to add 3 more harddrives to the machine that are IDE, but you want to use IDE to SATA adapters so that you have IDE ports left over for your optical drives. If I am not understanding things correctly, please correct me.

The biggest problem you have is your boot issue. Unless you took some steps before moving the 120GB over, you probably won't be able to boot with the drive in the new motherboard. The easiest thing to do is put the XP cd in, and perform a repair install. This will remove the old motherboard drivers, and load the new ones. (You can't boot because windows is trying to load the drivers for the old motherboard, which don't work on the new one.) You could put the 120GB back in the old motherboard and remove the drivers from windows manually if you know what you're doing, but using the CD is easier. You shouldn't lose any data, but you might need to reactivate some things. Here is a link that might help.

http://www.michaelstevenstech.com/XPrepairinstall.htm

The bios problem is probably the result of using the converters. You can probably save some time by "hard coding" the drives into the bios instead of having it auto detect. I've never used the converters, so I have no idea if the jumper should be in. Did they come with any instructions? Work on getting your windows repaired before worrying about adding the harddrives.
December 15, 2007 5:15:27 AM

Thanks for the reply. The boot issue isnt resulting from the move from PC to PC but instead from converting the extra HDDs from IDE to SATA. The new system boots/works fine. The problem is that the new MB only has one IDE port for a master/slave connection and 6 SATA connections. I have 4 internal IDE HDDs and one optical. Before I went through the process of reformatting the main HDD (again) and installing a new O/S on the converted SATA connection, I was hoping there was something I may be doing wrong.

I bought three of these adapters. There are no instructions with the package, only the adapter as pictured here:
http://www.cooldrives.com/serial-ata---ata-atapi-ide-in...
Related resources
a b G Storage
December 15, 2007 6:56:34 AM

Is the 120GB the boot drive? Was it moved from one machine to another? How is the boot drive connected? You said in your second post that the new machine works fine, but you said in your first post that "I get past the BIOS/system check (which now takes forever), I get to the XP Loading page, the bar moves left to right but [/b]never will progress to my desktop[/b]. I took that to mean that the new machine isn't working correctly.

Lets ignore the multiple harddrives for right now. What is your boot drive? Does it show up properly in the bios? Was it moved from one machine to another?
December 15, 2007 7:02:55 AM

Yes, the boot drive (120GB) was moved from one machine to another using a fresh install of XP. All updates were installed and everything has worked fine since. When I mentioned that BIOS takes forever to load, I should have clarified that this happened only after I connected the 200GB storage drive using a SATA connection instead of a external connection as I previously have been. All of my storages drives have been connected using external cases. The boot drive does show up in the BIOS.
a b G Storage
December 15, 2007 9:16:17 AM

Gotcha. So you had a 120GB drive that got moved over from one system to another, but formatted it so that it would work. I'm still a little confused however. You said again that everything worked fine, except for a single drive. Does that mean the other 2 drives are working correctly with the adapters? (are they using adapters or external cases?) Is it possible to unhook the optical drive and put the 200GB drive in its place? (or is it possible to test the 200GB drive in another system?)

I don't mean to be rude, but it seems like the conditions are constantly changing here. I'm having a bit of trouble understanding whats going on when sometimes windows doesn't boot and other times things are fine, or when you talk of using adapters, and now you talk of external cases.
December 15, 2007 12:19:38 PM

Maybe I should start off fresh. The entire problem revolves around my new system not identifying any SATA connected drives. I have never used SATA connections in the past, only IDE. My old system consisted of 4 direct, internal IDE connections; 2 were HDDs, the other 2 were optical. In addition, I have 2 more HDDs that are in External Cases. Since I upgraded, I have built an entirely new system with the exception of my montior, CD/DVD drive and HDDs. After I built my new system; I put in my main boot drive (IDE, internal, 120GB) wiped out the old O/S and installed a fresh copy. Keep in mind, the only internal HDD I had hooked up is the 120GB mentioned above. So now, new copy of XP is on, I run all the updates, update all of my firmware, and everything is running fine. I then connect two external HDDs (that are in external cases) Via USB 2.0 connections. Same thing, everything still running fine. Boots fine, runs fine.

Now the project --- To Eliminate the problem of having numerous HDDs in external cases sitting on top of my tower, I want to make all of them internal. Problem is, the new MoBo only has one IDE port (that will allow a primary and slave connection) and 6 SATA ports. All of my HDDs have IDE connections, not SATA. So I did some research and find IDE to SATA converters. I figured that is my resolution and I ordered 3 of them.

This is where the problems begin.

I dont have prior experience with SATA controllers but have dont some research and thought I read where a RAID setup isnt necessary but may improve performance. Being I was using converters and not true SATA drives, that wouldnt matter. So I didnt want the RAID setup and instead, hooked up all three converters to my other 3 drives excluding my main boot HDD which is still installed internally. So we now have 4 HDDs; one main boot drive (120GB), still connected internally via IDE and 3 other IDE HDDs (200GB, 60GB and 80 GB) that have SATA converters added on. I connect the 3 other HDDs to SATA ports 1, 2 and 3; turn on my PC and nothing. I to my MoBO logo screen and it wont budge. I then turn off, disconnect SATA 2 & 3 and restart. Even with just the main boot (120GB IDE) and 1 storage (200GB SATA), it hangs. This is where we are today. I have tried different jumper settings on the drives with no avail. The farthest the system has moved is it gets past BIOS which is normally 5 seconds but with the SATA drive connected, it becomes almost a minute. It gets to the XP loading screen where is has the scrolling bar at the bottom, but will not complete the boot. If I disconnect the SATA drive and leave only the main boot (12 GB IDE), it boots fine.

December 15, 2007 1:11:46 PM

djtroz,
As for running IDE on SATA instead of RAID, I think it depends on your MOBO and what controllers you are using. On my old A8V, I use the built in Promise controller and I can do it - I go into BIOS and set the mode for the controller from RAID to IDE emulation - and it works fine. Check your mobo specs and BIOS settings to see if you can do the same.

Sdrac
December 15, 2007 1:41:00 PM

Hi,
New mobos will not boot from IDE drive. OS must be installed on SATA drive.
The reason is that the SATA drives have native support from the chipset, but the IDE controller is an add-on.
To 'see' a harddisk on the IDE controller during OS install might require F6 drivers - but this does not mean the installation will complete (even though it appears to be proceeding). At the point where the OS install first reboots, it can hang during restart saying "cannot locate drive" when IDE is used.
Hey, I can buy 250GB/16MB SATA2 WDs for $69 bucks brand new! You will need one for your OS, but all your other HDs should work just fine with the converters on them, and set up as JBODs.
Perhaps you can run your OS off one of these IDE drives - but it must be connected to an SATA controller using the convertor.
The IDE controller still included for now on most mobos is dedicated to support of el torito optical drive bootup (thank goodness), while IDE OS is no longer possible.
Please state the exact make/model of your new mobo and we can double-check & confirm this for you,
Regards
December 15, 2007 1:58:42 PM

Quote:
Even with just the main boot (120GB IDE) and 1 storage (200GB SATA), it hangs.

Reading your latest entry, you have it running OK with your OS on IDE :)  good for you, that's great (it's what you wanted).
But it is choking on the converted IDEs attached to your SATA controllers right?
What is happening during the long pause is the SATA controller is trying to detect what is attached.
Note that all IDE drives must be jumpered as Master. Do you have any WD? These cannot be jumpered Master but must be seup as Single drive. (A WD is jumpered Master only when a slave is present.)
Go immediately into BIOS and see if/how these converted IDE drives are detected. Possibly the SATA contoller is jumping ahead of the IDE controller in boot order, once these drives have been attached.
Also possibly, your mobo's SATA controllers cannot detect these converted IDE HDs...? But you must get into your BIOS to see what's going on,
L8R
December 15, 2007 4:50:47 PM

sdrac said:
djtroz,
As for running IDE on SATA instead of RAID, I think it depends on your MOBO and what controllers you are using. On my old A8V, I use the built in Promise controller and I can do it - I go into BIOS and set the mode for the controller from RAID to IDE emulation - and it works fine. Check your mobo specs and BIOS settings to see if you can do the same.

Sdrac


This is my first time toying with SATA instead of IDE. I have been back and forth in the BIOS and CMOS trying to get anything to work and get nowhere. I'll start looking into the RAID to IDE Emu.
December 15, 2007 5:02:00 PM

The_OGS said:
Hi,
New mobos will not boot from IDE drive. OS must be installed on SATA drive.


Is this only true if you are using only SATA? When I finished building the new system, I used the IDE socket for my IDE (120GB/Boot) as master connected through IDE and not SATA and my CD/DVD as slave. This has been working perfectly until I plug in the SATA connector and that's where the problem starts.

The_OGS said:

You will need one for your OS, but all your other HDs should work just fine with the converters on them, and set up as JBODs.
Perhaps you can run your OS off one of these IDE drives - but it must be connected to an SATA controller using the convertor.


I dont mind using the converter on my main drive, but I am trying to avoid using a RAID setup. Would that still be possible? I was thinking about doing RAID JBOD but if I connected all 4 drives with converters and used the JBOD setup, would I have to go back and reformat each one beforehand or will it keep my current partitions?

The_OGS said:

Please state the exact make/model of your new mobo and we can double-check & confirm this for you,


Abit KN9 SLI socket AM2:
http://www.uabit.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=...

December 15, 2007 5:14:45 PM

The_OGS said:
Quote:

Even with just the main boot (120GB IDE) and 1 storage (200GB SATA), it hangs.

Reading your latest entry, you have it running OK with your OS on IDE :)  good for you, that's great (it's what you wanted).
But it is choking on the converted IDEs attached to your SATA controllers right?

Yes, my OS is on the IDE/Boot drive. I believe it is choking the connected/converted IDE drive on SATA.

The_OGS said:
Quote:

What is happening during the long pause is the SATA controller is trying to detect what is attached.
Note that all IDE drives must be jumpered as Master. Do you have any WD? These cannot be jumpered Master but must be seup as Single drive. (A WD is jumpered Master only when a slave is present.)
Quote:

I have tried multiple jumper settings... Master, Master w/Slave present, C/S. Master at least gets my past BIOs but will not let Windows load.

Until I can get at least one working, I am only hooking up one converted IDE->SATA. It is a Western Digital Caviar, 200GB, eIDE drive. The settings offer CS, Slave, Master w/Slave Present and Single or Master. I have been doing most of the testing using Single or Master which has no jumper attached. My other drives vary in manufacturer but again, I havent connected those yet.


The_OGS said:
Quote:

Go immediately into BIOS and see if/how these converted IDE drives are detected. Possibly the SATA contoller is jumping ahead of the IDE controller in boot order, once these drives have been attached.
Also possibly, your mobo's SATA controllers cannot detect these converted IDE HDs...? But you must get into your BIOS to see what's going on,
L8R
Quote:


Each time after I connected the converted SATA, I would go into BIOS to check that. I am only allowing one drive to boot, the IDE 120GB (the one that's working). The BIOS cannot detect the other. I tried auto-detect under slave IDE and under SATA-1 and it cant find it under either. I wondering too if it simply will not be able to detect it at all...

a b G Storage
December 15, 2007 5:55:53 PM

If they can't be found, I wonder if the converters are working properly. Are you sure the data cable is plugged in tightly? Did you remember to power both the drive, and the converter? Each of those converters needs a mini 4 pin Molex connector. If you've been messing with your bios a lot, you might want to consider reseting it incase you've moved something you shouldn't have. Before you do, write down the settings for the drive that works so you know what it is.
December 15, 2007 6:23:18 PM

I know the Data cable is in tight. It has a metal retainer clip that holds in. I know it's not going anywhere because it is a pain to try to get them out once in. I purchased two different types; IDE->SATA and SATA->IDE. I purchased the SATA->IDE accidentally so I have no use for it and will probably find someone to buy it. The ones I have a slightly different than the one pictured. Mine has the standard power connector like the kind that would normally fit into an IDE or Optical drive.. large, white 4 pin. The one pictured uses the smaller type pin. Here is a picture of my adapter:
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/9/6/2/8/1/webimg/73325...

I know the adapter is getting power because it has a tiny LED which is illuminated. I didnt think I would still need to run power to the Drive as well as I figured that's what the plug was for.
December 15, 2007 7:03:03 PM

Some motherboards require thet you have the sata drives plugged in certain ports. Mine has for ports but to work in ide mode I can only use port 3 and 4 one and 2 are for raid only on my board. Read your manual. You dont have to raid but if your not doing raid you need to make sure the drives are set to run in ide mode. If you can put all the drives in old computer go into disk management and make sure the drives dont have system files on them.

Easyiest was is buy your self a 500g or 2 500g sata3 HDDs. They can be had for newegg for $99 with free shipping. I got one on the way as we speak.
December 15, 2007 7:03:18 PM

SATA to PATA adapters are flaky. It looks like you have tried every combination known to man. Save whats left of your hair and by a PROMISE ULTRA133TX2 PCI IDE Controller Card. They may have PCIe versions out there as well. I know you eat up slots, but you keep you sanity.
December 15, 2007 7:14:20 PM

roadrunner197069 said:
Some motherboards require thet you have the sata drives plugged in certain ports. Mine has for ports but to work in ide mode I can only use port 3 and 4 one and 2 are for raid only on my board. Read your manual. You dont have to raid but if your not doing raid you need to make sure the drives are set to run in ide mode. If you can put all the drives in old computer go into disk management and make sure the drives dont have system files on them.

Easyiest was is buy your self a 500g or 2 500g sata3 HDDs. They can be had for newegg for $99 with free shipping. I got one on the way as we speak.
I looks like SATA is disabled by default
Quote:
Click <Enter> key to enter its submenu:
Phoenix – AwardBIOS CMOS Setup Utility
RAID Configuration
RAID Function Disabled
- Serial-ATA 1 RAID Disabled
- Serial-ATA 2 RAID Disabled
- Serial-ATA 3 RAID Disabled
- Serial-ATA 4 RAID Disabled
- Serial-ATA 5 RAID Disabled
- Serial-ATA 6 RAID Disabled

December 15, 2007 10:19:42 PM

On mine, they are. I initially enabled the RAID function, but left all 6 ports disabled. Then I went back and disabled the RAID function and the 6 ports and nothing either way. I'll go back into my manual to see if there is anything about allowing IDE on specific ports and check into the PCIe card.
a b G Storage
December 16, 2007 3:52:37 AM

Quote:
I know the adapter is getting power because it has a tiny LED which is illuminated. I didnt think I would still need to run power to the Drive as well as I figured that's what the plug was for.


So does this mean you only have power going to the adapter and none to the drive? The drive isn't getting any power, and would be the source of your problem. You need one power plug for the adapter, and another for the drive. Try it this way with one and see if it works.
December 16, 2007 3:54:31 AM

Give me a few minutes and I'll let you know the result.
December 16, 2007 3:59:58 AM

Wow I just looked at the pic that might be it good call.
December 16, 2007 4:08:20 AM

You know, I'll be a horse's A**!

Why is it the simplest things are the fix? That was it. I would have never thought it would need another power source when it is plugged into the bridge.

Boot up time: normal, BIOS: fine, no lag on anything. Went into My Computer and there she sits!

Thank you all very, very much for the time spent on this!!
December 16, 2007 4:11:44 AM

CG, I'm glad to hear it. I might have to try to get some of those adapters. 9 times out of 10 its the dumbest stuff that gete over looked.
December 16, 2007 4:23:39 AM

I got mine from eBay. $.99 + $5.99 S/H.

Now I just need to get spitters for the extra power cables...
a b G Storage
December 16, 2007 7:13:54 AM

Glad you got it working. I don't know how much power those adapters take, you are probably fine using splitters. The adapter for some reason needs power, but the only thing it plugs into is the drives data port, not the power port. It would be nice if it has a molex on the other side so that you don't need the splitters, but what do you expect for $1+ shipping...
December 16, 2007 2:16:43 PM

Quote:
I would have never thought it would need another power source when it is plugged into the bridge.

LoL, heheh... :whistle: 
I love a happy ending!
Note: To all would-be troubleshooters, the importance of being methodical - simplest, most basic stuff first :lol: 
Assume nothing,
L8R
!