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Cheap solution for indoor 8-VSB reception!

Last response: in Home Theatre
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Anonymous
April 9, 2005 12:18:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

There is a $32.08 solution for indoor HDTV reception available at
Buy.com!

Zenith indoor antenna amp - $13.09 - see:

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90125305&loc=...

Silver Sensor indoor antenna - $18.99 see:

http://www.buy.com/prod/Zenith_ZHDTV1_HDTV_Indoor_Anten...
-----------------------------------------------------
I just read through a bunch of boring technical papers on tests of
8-VSB vs. COFDM and the results, from Brazil, to the USA, to Asia,
indicate that neither system is a great miracle for indoor digital TV
reception. Bob Miller seems to claim that COFDM will solve all our
indoor reception problems, but the actual tests do not support that
conclusion anywhere in the world.

In my own case I am close to transmission towers, but the TV signals
have to penetrate a metal roof and 3 other apartments before getting to
my tiny little indoor antenna. My antenna is about 5' above ground
level as opposed to the suggested 30' high outdoor antenna for HDTV
reception. I have no windows facing transmission towers and my
building is well insulated and surrounded by both tall buildings and
tall trees. Despite all of this, I can receive all 6 local digital
channels using the Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined with the
Zenith indoor antenna amp. Just imagine trying to get a satellite
microwave signal indoors under similar conditions! Even with shipping
the bill comes to less than $40. Not much to pay for free HDTV for
many years.

The new Chinese form of COFDM might be better than 8-VSB, but the
European version appears to have little benefit for indoor reception
over 8-VSB. The US Congress is not going to drop 8-VSB and switch to a
Chinese designed system for obvious political and economic reasons.
The best performance for indoor reception that has been documented is
the LG Electronics 5th generation receiver prototype test receiving
8-VSB, not COFDM!

My conclusion after endless debates with Bob Miller and reading the
actual test reports, is that sticking with 8-VSB is the only sane
decision. Improvements in chip design for 8-VSB receivers have almost
"limitless potential" according to industry experts. The 5th
generation chips coming on line are much better than earlier chips, and
6th and 7th generation chips will continue to improve performance.
There really seems to be no clear benefit to COFDM except for mobile
reception, so those of you who wish to watch TV while skateboarding,
fly fishing, driving an 18 wheeler, etc., are out of luck, not just out
of your minds.

IB
Anonymous
April 9, 2005 9:38:50 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Thanks for the interesting links and pictures. I want to state clearly
that both 8-VSB and COFDM work. My point is that neither is a miracle
and indoor reception is problematic for both systems. Brazil chose
COFDM and in their tests it did work a little better, but the cost to
society is repeaters all over the place and the differences in
reception quality were not staggering. It is a matter of trade-offs.
In the USA we are use to having a single broadcast antenna systems for
each city and 8-VSB works well in that configuration. To compare the
two systems you are comparing moving targets because 8-VSB receiver
technology keeps getting better and better. The LG and Casper
technologies, for example, will increase reception quality tremendously
and even more improvements are ahead. 8-VSB is a usable system and we
have to stick with it to make the digital revolution in this country
work.

IB
April 9, 2005 10:04:26 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

<inkyblacks@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1113016682.279049.320350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> There is a $32.08 solution for indoor HDTV reception available at
> Buy.com!
>
> Zenith indoor antenna amp - $13.09 - see:
>
> http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90125305&loc=...
>
> Silver Sensor indoor antenna - $18.99 see:
>
> http://www.buy.com/prod/Zenith_ZHDTV1_HDTV_Indoor_Anten...
> -----------------------------------------------------
> I just read through a bunch of boring technical papers on tests of
> 8-VSB vs. COFDM and the results, from Brazil, to the USA, to Asia,
> indicate that neither system is a great miracle for indoor digital TV
> reception. Bob Miller seems to claim that COFDM will solve all our
> indoor reception problems, but the actual tests do not support that
> conclusion anywhere in the world.
>
> In my own case I am close to transmission towers, but the TV signals
> have to penetrate a metal roof and 3 other apartments before getting to
> my tiny little indoor antenna. My antenna is about 5' above ground
> level as opposed to the suggested 30' high outdoor antenna for HDTV
> reception. I have no windows facing transmission towers and my
> building is well insulated and surrounded by both tall buildings and
> tall trees. Despite all of this, I can receive all 6 local digital
> channels using the Silver Sensor indoor antenna combined with the
> Zenith indoor antenna amp. Just imagine trying to get a satellite
> microwave signal indoors under similar conditions! Even with shipping
> the bill comes to less than $40. Not much to pay for free HDTV for
> many years.
>
> The new Chinese form of COFDM might be better than 8-VSB, but the
> European version appears to have little benefit for indoor reception
> over 8-VSB. The US Congress is not going to drop 8-VSB and switch to a
> Chinese designed system for obvious political and economic reasons.
> The best performance for indoor reception that has been documented is
> the LG Electronics 5th generation receiver prototype test receiving
> 8-VSB, not COFDM!
>
> My conclusion after endless debates with Bob Miller and reading the
> actual test reports, is that sticking with 8-VSB is the only sane
> decision. Improvements in chip design for 8-VSB receivers have almost
> "limitless potential" according to industry experts. The 5th
> generation chips coming on line are much better than earlier chips, and
> 6th and 7th generation chips will continue to improve performance.
> There really seems to be no clear benefit to COFDM except for mobile
> reception, so those of you who wish to watch TV while skateboarding,
> fly fishing, driving an 18 wheeler, etc., are out of luck, not just out
> of your minds.
>
> IB

Just to put things in proper perspective, check out this very informative
website, put up by the Wright Aerial Company in England. ;-)

It must be kind of sad to require those ugly repeaters/eyesores all over the
beautiful English countryside.

http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/terrestrialtvdoweneedit.ht...

Try the home page, aerial issues, and aerial photography.
"Rogues' gallery" is amusing, too.

http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/roguesgalleryview.html
Related resources
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 12:59:02 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

inkyblacks@yahoo.com wrote:
> Thanks for the interesting links and pictures. I want to state clearly
> that both 8-VSB and COFDM work. My point is that neither is a miracle
> and indoor reception is problematic for both systems. Brazil chose
> COFDM and in their tests it did work a little better, but the cost to
> society is repeaters all over the place and the differences in
> reception quality were not staggering. It is a matter of trade-offs.
> In the USA we are use to having a single broadcast antenna systems for
> each city and 8-VSB works well in that configuration. To compare the
> two systems you are comparing moving targets because 8-VSB receiver
> technology keeps getting better and better. The LG and Casper
> technologies, for example, will increase reception quality tremendously
> and even more improvements are ahead. 8-VSB is a usable system and we
> have to stick with it to make the digital revolution in this country
> work.

Well, that pretty much proves that IB isn't bm.

Matthew

--
Thermodynamics and/or Golf for dummies: There is a game
You can't win
You can't break even
You can't get out of the game
April 10, 2005 1:40:55 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"David" <davey@home.net> wrote in message
news:EsWdnWDT183KzMXfRVn-oQ@comcast.com...
>
> Just to put things in proper perspective, check out this very informative
> website, put up by the Wright Aerial Company in England. ;-)
>
> It must be kind of sad to require those ugly repeaters/eyesores all over
> the beautiful English countryside.
>
> http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/terrestrialtvdoweneedit.ht...
>

Of course those are analogue repeaters (of which there are about 1,000 in
the UK) which by and large don't yet carry any digital services.

The reason for their existance is simply a political one. Terrestrial TV is
viewed as a public service, hence large numbers of repeaters are installed
to ensure that viewers can get a decent signal without needing dirty great
antenna arrays on their house, even in remote rural areas with just a
hundred or so homes which might otherwise be commercially unviable.

Whilst I agree they look pretty ugly, IMO having just one mast up the side
of a hill relaying the analogue signal (plus normally cellular and other
services too) looks a darn sight less ugly than all the cottages down in the
valley having their own large antenna array in order to try and get some TV
picture.
Anonymous
April 10, 2005 2:47:17 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In the UK you have to pay a government licensee fee every year to watch
TV as well, so the economic structure in the UK is quite different than
in the USA.

Most folks here use cable or satellite and will continue to do so
because that is what they are use to. They could care less about any
debate between 8-VSB and COFDM because they never even considered
putting up a UHF antenna on their homes. Only the old remember the
fateful day back in the 1970s when they tore down their old VHF house
top antenna and installed cable. I wonder if all that aluminum was
ever recycled. Before cable most people could only get 4 or 5 fuzzy
channels, and often only at night.

IB
Anonymous
April 11, 2005 4:04:11 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

inkyblacks@yahoo.com wrote:
> In the UK you have to pay a government licensee fee every year to watch
> TV as well, so the economic structure in the UK is quite different than
> in the USA.
>
> Most folks here use cable or satellite and will continue to do so
> because that is what they are use to. They could care less about any
> debate between 8-VSB and COFDM because they never even considered
> putting up a UHF antenna on their homes. Only the old remember the
> fateful day back in the 1970s when they tore down their old VHF house
> top antenna and installed cable. I wonder if all that aluminum was
> ever recycled. Before cable most people could only get 4 or 5 fuzzy
> channels, and often only at night.
>
> IB
>
So what happened to your last post on AVSForum?

Bob Miller
Anonymous
April 12, 2005 4:19:33 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <%9j6e.3942$An2.2615@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
Bob Miller <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote:

> inkyblacks@yahoo.com wrote:
> > In the UK you have to pay a government licensee fee every year to watch
> > TV as well, so the economic structure in the UK is quite different than
> > in the USA.
> >
> > Most folks here use cable or satellite and will continue to do so
> > because that is what they are use to. They could care less about any
> > debate between 8-VSB and COFDM because they never even considered
> > putting up a UHF antenna on their homes. Only the old remember the
> > fateful day back in the 1970s when they tore down their old VHF house
> > top antenna and installed cable. I wonder if all that aluminum was
> > ever recycled. Before cable most people could only get 4 or 5 fuzzy
> > channels, and often only at night.
> >
> > IB
> >
> So what happened to your last post on AVSForum?
>
> Bob Miller

Hey, I still have an antenna in my attic. I used to use it for analog.
Now I use it for digital. I have a power rotator, but I can pretty much
get all the stations but one from one setting. In Pittsburgh, we have
eight digital channels and two on the way. Most are at around 30 deg,
but channel 4 is at 104 deg. The nice thing about digital is it either
comes in or it doesn't. There is no snow.

I have to say I am new to this and was very pleased with the Masters
coverage. However, most experienced viewers seemed to think it was
pretty poor.

BTW, I also have DirecTV, but not the HD stuff. I think it is way too
expensive for a few channels.

--
Robert B. Peirce, Venetia, PA 724-941-6883
bob AT peirce-family.com [Mac]
rbp AT cooksonpeirce.com [Office]
!