Sign in with
Sign up | Sign in
Your question

System Builder Marathon: High-End System

Last response: in Systems
Share
September 19, 2007 9:30:01 PM

Considering the money you guys had left over, I am dumbfounded why you didn't get a better case.

Looking around on frozencpu.com, $500 will get you a "complete" high-end water cooling system - that is, 120mm x 3 radiator, reservoir, fans, fan guards, shrouds, CPU block, pump, two GPU blocks, NB/SB chipset block, hoses, hose clamps, attachments, etc.. - and still stay within your $4000 budget.

Being the true enthusiast, if I am buying a striker extreme for $300, a G0 QX6850 for $1050, and two video cards for $1000, it would be silly not to spend a few hundred more on a well-planned, high-performance water cooling system that keeps ALL OF THEM COOL. The additional time it takes to set up and install will most likely pay off big dividends down the road when I overclock.

On Newegg.com $249 will get you a Lian-Li PC-V2000Aplus II full tower case, with room for all your water cooling gear AND PSU. Sure, it doesn't come with a dual 120mm radiator, but choosing a case just because it HAS a dual 120mm radiator is like choosing a car just because it's got navigation and 20" wheels - in other words, the enthusiast will get around it and can do it himself.

EDIT: Even cheaper, for $200 is the Lian-Li PC-G70B with even more room inside.

In fact, $160 will get you the Swiftech H2O-120 compact CPU liquid cooling kit, with the CPU block/pump in one unit and the radiator/reservoir in a second unit. Easy to mount, performs well, and completely usable in ANY case you like with a 120mm fan mount on it. Invest $90 more and you can pick up the Apex Ultra kit with full-flow 1/2" ID tubing, dual 120mm radiator, and a radbox mount that attaches to any case with any size fan hole.

There is a difference between the enthusiast, who will plan his build and get the most out of his gear, and the guy who just picks stuff off newegg.com and puts it together. Anybody can slap gear in a case and hit the power button, but it takes the enthusiast to look at every component, every sub-component, plan his build, research benchmarks, compare prices, make sure they work together, fit the right accessories to get the most performance, and most importantly, devote the time to get this all done.

This is not to criticize your builds here in the article or the work of your team in any manner, you have all done a great job. But it seems your objective is more "what can I buy off the shelf and quickly slap together for $4000" as opposed to "how would an enthusiast spend $4000".

I guess enthusiasts have more time to spend, whereas editors must meet strict deadlines.
September 19, 2007 10:03:55 PM

A 1kW PSU seems such an overkill. Why don't you test the system to see what the peak power draw is?

I couldn't agree more with
Quote:
But it seems your objective is more "what can I buy off the shelf and quickly slap together for $4000" as opposed to "how would an enthusiast spend $4000".
Related resources
September 19, 2007 10:17:37 PM

Where does one get a QX6580..newegg or mwave doesnt care them
September 19, 2007 10:33:49 PM

Personally I would of used a larger case with fans o' plenty like the coolermaster rc-830 or 832. Every review I have ever seen of that case exudes quality. I would of moved the WC gear outside the case as well to improve cooling and make instalation easier. $300-$350 gets you an all-included cooling solution with a huge radiator w/ 5 120mm fans in the Thermaktake Symphony. Then, there would be adequate WC cooling capacity to WC the 8800GTX's as well.
September 19, 2007 10:51:37 PM

Yah, i concur on the general concensus that there is a large margin separating "needed components" vs "dream components".
A E6750 C2D, single GTX 8800GTX, Enermax 750W PSU.....
Choosing a $1,000 CPU to do the same amount of work that a $210 C2D could handle easily....gimme some of what you been smokin.
Oh BTW, the EVGA 680i is the best SLI mainboard in production right now, not to mention the integrated water-cooling found on the EVGA Black Pearl.
When you get serious about building "down to earth", "real world", "best bang for the buck" systems let me know.
It's a great system you have there but overkilled to the max.
September 19, 2007 11:10:24 PM

mad-dog said:
Choosing a $1,000 CPU to do the same amount of work that a $210 C2D could handle easily....gimme some of what you been smokin.


THG made the same argument for using the faster X6800 rather than the slower QX6700 last time, but nobody listened.

mad-dog said:
Oh BTW, the EVGA 680i is the best SLI mainboard in production right now, not to mention the integrated water-cooling found on the EVGA Black Pearl.
When you get serious about building "down to earth", "real world", "best bang for the buck" systems let me know.
It's a great system you have there but overkilled to the max.


Give me a break. I've had about as much luck overclocking the ECS 680i as I did with an old Foxconn i975X. The Striker Extreme is better.
September 20, 2007 12:24:59 AM

This is very funny to me. I started thinking about building a top-end system. I was thinking about $5000. Then after reading reviews and studing a bit it seems crazy. IMO the only reason to spend more than $2500 on a computer is for EPEEN rights!

Dont get me wrong $1000 on a CPU, dual $900 GPUs, etc... Sound like alot of funny but it overkill & will be outdated in less than 3 months.
September 20, 2007 12:31:37 AM

I should have known better than to expect Tom's Hardware to not go the "its uber expensive so it must be the best" route and use the Striker Extreme. I would have gone with the Blitz Formula and two 2900XTs only because I am sick of the 680i chipset.
September 20, 2007 12:48:22 AM

proof said:
I should have known better than to expect Tom's Hardware to not go the "its uber expensive so it must be the best" route and use the Striker Extreme. I would have gone with the Blitz Formula and two 2900XTs only because I am sick of the 680i chipset.


LOL, THG simply picked the highest-overclocking 680i board from it's former tests. The site hasn't even tested the Blitz Formula, but the Blitz Extreme didn't leave the same impression.
September 20, 2007 6:43:14 AM

For the record, we have Crucial Ballistix PC2-6400, PC2-8000, and PC2-8500 in systems. On every one, CPU-Z 1.41 reads them as PC2-6400. I suspect they're all the same chip with different labels. They all perform similary, 1215MHz-1235MHz. Great stuff, but no need to buy the more expensive kits just because of the label IMO. Great observation and choice by the author on that one.

When going with SLI, the motherboard options are limited. To stay with Intel CPUs, the 680i is really the only option. However, 2900XTs use a temendous amount of power. 2 of those in crossfire would probably exceed what this PSU is capable of, let alone what it does to your electric bill. After a year of running 2 2900XT's you could have bought a 3rd 8800GTX and put a good down payment on a 4th. So I'm happy that they went with SLI instead.

I use a Thermaltake Kandalf case (almost identical to the basic Armor w/o water cooling) and air cooling. I'll be interested in seeing just what this system does for overclocking compared to mine. I think water cooling is a waste of time with the new Intel Conroe, but it should surely help the graphics cards.

If they hadn't insisted upon putting the hard drives in the bottom, rather than on top in the back where they belong in that case (for photographic reasons), most of their case modifications wouldn't have been necessary. The entire reason for putting the hard drives in the top in back is that they have a separate exhaust fan, rather than drag all that heat across the entire system from the front. No wonder their chipset and RAM were running hot.

I'm quite happy with the Kandalf and the price. My list of things that could be better is similar. Some disassembly/reassembly is required to fit a big PSU. Also the tool-less PCI card clips don't seat very well and need to be taken off everytime I want to change video card or pull the motherboard. I've also replaced the top 90mm fan with a 120mm fan (quieter and better air flow), but using a couple cable ties to replace the plastic fan housing was pretty simple.

Otherwise, for building an SLI system I think the review did a pretty decent job of selecting components. Too bad they thought pics were more important than performance and leaving the case intact though.
September 20, 2007 7:01:35 AM

dark41 said:
Too bad they thought pics were more important than performance and leaving the case intact though.

The pump had to be rotated to clear the graphics cards, so the holes had to be drilled no matter where the drives were placed.
September 20, 2007 7:27:15 AM

Luscious said:
Considering the money you guys had left over, I am dumbfounded why you didn't get a better case.


Pick one and I'll tell you what's wrong with it...you thought this was an easy choice?
September 20, 2007 7:57:58 AM

The percentage improvement for oblivion was skewed because of the indoor FPS increase, the outdoor increase was much less. Probably should have commented on that in the conclusion regarding game performance difference. Not a bad article, and I agree with the editor's opinion (as do most people I'd say) about the doubt over the value for money of the build. Can you guys pass some of that cash over this way so I can afford the "budget" build :lol: 

EDIT: @Crashman: mad-dog referred to the EVGA 680i not the ECS 680i.
September 20, 2007 8:21:07 AM

Crashman said:
Pick one and I'll tell you what's wrong with it...you thought this was an easy choice?


I'd be interested in what you think of the Coolermaster RC-832/830 cases.
September 20, 2007 9:00:38 AM

Its good to note that not many cases allow for all the 3.5 or 5.15" bays to be used with water cooling, a pump, tubes and a radiator take up a lot of space!

So what do enthusiasts do? Either design well routed case systems from scratch, or use REALLY BIG CASES.

I've used the armor in builds before, and its really big, but as the author implied, its construction is nothing really to rave about.

I use a Lian Li PC-V2100 PLUS II with an HE120.3 mounted to the top, and I have only lost one 5.15" bay of 6, and still have 12 3.5" bays for HDD's :)  (6 of which are filled)

Due to there being dual PSU space, you can fit the pump above the first PSU, and lose no extra space (unless you are building a workstation and want that slot :o )
September 20, 2007 1:33:55 PM

Could have gone with the Gigabyte 3D Mercury water cooled case. It has everything piped up and ready to install (just add water!) Plus expansion to add VGA water blocks, etc. Also comes with a power supply extension bracket for the longer power supply units. Seems this would have eliminated some of your "customizing".

Some here are mentioning an add-on water system. The newer large mass/heat pipe/120mm fan HSF's cool as well and are quieter to boot, so I don't see this as an option. Even the Gigabyte case is too loud if you turn the radiator fans on high, but it seems to perform well with the fans on medium. I am unconvinced you need to go the water route, but with $4k there are a lot of options. Maybe a remote pump/fan you put outside and pipe through the wall. Hey, you already have antifreeze in it...

Also would have like to have seen a crossfire setup with the HD 2900 XT 1Gb cards, maybe with the Asus P5K Deluxe.

These first two items would add a little to your cost, although the MB is cheaper. But you would still be under $4k.

I don't know if you would need to change PS. Would have liked to have seen power consumption #'s.
September 20, 2007 1:42:00 PM

Why did they use the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS? Isn't that card no longer for sale? They sell the Creative X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion Series now.

Is the FPS version better then the Platinum version?

(just ordered the Platinum version, so I hope the FPS isn't a better card...)
September 20, 2007 3:40:22 PM

Seraphic said:
Why did they use the Creative X-Fi Fatal1ty FPS? Isn't that card no longer for sale? They sell the Creative X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion Series now.

Is the FPS version better then the Platinum version?

(just ordered the Platinum version, so I hope the FPS isn't a better card...)


"better" in what sense? It is the same dsp, same (as of yet unused) xram... both are good cards, but I agree that using an unavailable component kinda sucks. With the xfi fatal1ty cards though the performance is the same.
September 20, 2007 4:31:24 PM

snootch said:
I'd be interested in what you think of the Coolermaster RC-832/830 cases.


I like them a lot, I just don't know of any large radiators that will fit inside one. Does anyone sell a kit that mounts in the front, as with Thermaltake's Armor LCS?
September 20, 2007 4:41:00 PM

ratbert said:
Could have gone with the Gigabyte 3D Mercury water cooled case. It has everything piped up and ready to install (just add water!) Plus expansion to add VGA water blocks, etc. Also comes with a power supply extension bracket for the longer power supply units. Seems this would have eliminated some of your "customizing".

Some here are mentioning an add-on water system. The newer large mass/heat pipe/120mm fan HSF's cool as well and are quieter to boot, so I don't see this as an option. Even the Gigabyte case is too loud if you turn the radiator fans on high, but it seems to perform well with the fans on medium. I am unconvinced you need to go the water route, but with $4k there are a lot of options. Maybe a remote pump/fan you put outside and pipe through the wall. Hey, you already have antifreeze in it...

Also would have like to have seen a crossfire setup with the HD 2900 XT 1Gb cards, maybe with the Asus P5K Deluxe.

These first two items would add a little to your cost, although the MB is cheaper. But you would still be under $4k.

I don't know if you would need to change PS. Would have liked to have seen power consumption #'s.


The 3D Mercury doesn't have as much cooling capacity. That same processor was used in the Extreme FSB quad-core test with a 3x120mm radiator, so even the 2x120mm radiator of the Armor LCS was a bit of a comprimise.

One option would be to swap out the Armor LCS's included pump with a Swiftech RP-1000, does anyone know how those perform?
September 20, 2007 4:49:25 PM

Elaruwan said:
Its good to note that not many cases allow for all the 3.5 or 5.15" bays to be used with water cooling, a pump, tubes and a radiator take up a lot of space!

So what do enthusiasts do? Either design well routed case systems from scratch, or use REALLY BIG CASES.

I've used the armor in builds before, and its really big, but as the author implied, its construction is nothing really to rave about.

I use a Lian Li PC-V2100 PLUS II with an HE120.3 mounted to the top, and I have only lost one 5.15" bay of 6, and still have 12 3.5" bays for HDD's :)  (6 of which are filled)

Due to there being dual PSU space, you can fit the pump above the first PSU, and lose no extra space (unless you are building a workstation and want that slot :o )


V2100 Plus II mounts the motherboard upside-down, which can cause the chipset heatpipe to lose most of it's functionality. I haven't seen a list of which boards (or aren't) affected, but who wants to take that risk? This is the biggest reason why a Koolance pre-configured case system wasn't used.
September 20, 2007 4:56:49 PM

Crashman said:
Pick one and I'll tell you what's wrong with it...you thought this was an easy choice?


Silverstone TJ07
Thermaltake Mozart TX
September 20, 2007 6:20:16 PM

proof said:
Silverstone TJ07
Thermaltake Mozart TX

TJ07 is a great case and one of the first considered for adding a third-party water cooling kit. Unfortunately, this wasn't a case modding article, and adding a large radiator would have required precision cutting.

The Mozart TX is a unique situation because it's so shallow. A 4-fan square radiator would probably fit at the top, but the added thickness of the radiator and four fans stacked together might not allow room for the optical drives to be inserted all the way. The Mozart TX is really the only "tough call" here and it's surprising you brought it up! Let's consider the options:

Mozart TX (windowless for side fan support): $220
MagiCool XTREME Quad 480 Radiator: $100
2x 1/2" hose barbs for radiator: $10
Swiftech MCP-655B pump: $90
Swiftech MCRES-Micro Reservoir: $15
Swiftech Apogee GT water block: $75
Clamps ~$5

That would be a nice kit! It only cost $515 and you'd better hope the radiator and fans don't block the backs of any optical drives.

Oops, forgot to add two more fans for the radiator, plus a side fan, you'd be up to around $540.
September 20, 2007 6:44:31 PM

I would prefer to go with two PA102.2 rads and an AquaComputer Cuplex DI.
September 20, 2007 7:46:44 PM

My take on your comments Crashman:
Quote:
Pick one and I'll tell you what's wrong with it...you thought this was an easy choice?
You could try the ones I mention above, or as snootch mentioned, try one of the stacker variants. You can easily install an after-market water cooling setup on any of them. The Lian-Li PC-G70B does give you a lot of room.
Quote:
V2100 Plus II mounts the motherboard upside-down, which can cause the chipset heatpipe to lose most of it's functionality. I haven't seen a list of which boards (or aren't) affected, but who wants to take that risk? This is the biggest reason why a Koolance pre-configured case system wasn't used.
That's also why you generally remove the heatpipe from the mobo and use NB/SB/vreg blocks. With decent airflow in your case, it won't pose any problem. For simplicity sake though, the PC-G70B does not invert the MB.
Quote:
I like them a lot, I just don't know of any large radiators that will fit inside one. Does anyone sell a kit that mounts in the front, as with Thermaltake's Armor LCS?
Going back to my first point, why do you HAVE to have the radiator included with the case? And why do you need to have the radiator inside at the front? The Swiftech radbox solution mounts outside, works with any case, and doesn't require any dremel work. Using the PC-G70B again as an example, it has ample room for a 120mm x3 radiator mounted on top without robbing hard-drive space.

Yes, looks and aesthetics are subjective, but the enthusiast will take the time and do the work.

I agree with you that this was not a case-modding or extreme water-cooling project, but I must go back to my first point: it seems your objective is more "what can I buy off the shelf and quickly slap together for $4000" as opposed to "how would an enthusiast spend $4000".
September 20, 2007 8:13:10 PM

I just love how so few can be pleased with this... funny to the point that I almost wonder if ppl are simply trying to stir the pot instead of actually believing what they are posting...

The way I saw it was they wanted to show the difference in performance between different price-brackets on a general sense. You can add/subtract individual components, adjust the price up or down but in the end you must set limits and have a hard ceiling for each build. Then you bench them to show what the extra scratch will get you. There is always subjectivity when some selections are made... that is the nature of our hobby and what makes it so much fun. Just like a car show where you see a sweet '69 mustang fastback but disagree on the paintjob or the type of intake on the 289... doesn't mean the owner was wrong, just a different take on it than your own.

Quote:
it seems your objective is more "what can I buy off the shelf and quickly slap together for $4000" as opposed to "how would an enthusiast spend $4000".


and the problem with that is what exactly? A real "enthusiast" will look at this article as more information about how parts perform. A real "enthusiast" would not build an exact copy of ANY system but rather build his/her own unique take on what performance/aesthetics/efficiency is best represented by. In building their own (and I mean truly their OWN, not someone else's idea of what it should be) system they will compile as much data as possible to be able to make an educated decision on what parts to use and how to do it. This article is one piece of that data. The real enthusiast will not quibble over what should have been used, but rather take the info presented (which in this case is very useful) and then make their own that SHOWS what they feel is the best for their budget.

THAT is what an enthusiast does.

Judging by all the whining about all the things in the article that no-one agrees with and very few seeing the good stuff within... I doubt many on this thread are enthusiasts at all, but rather wannabes that can only dream about doing even the relatively simple mods that were performed in this build let alone what it would take to go beyond that.

JMO of course... flame away.
September 20, 2007 8:13:49 PM

Ah, but Luscious, I'm still thinking about whether the Mozart TX would work with a big square radiator!
September 20, 2007 9:45:10 PM

mad-dog said:

It's a great system you have there but overkilled to the max.


How do you use a $4000 budget and not overkill? Seriously.



What would you guys recommend as our budget limits for the next marathon? I'd like to know what you guys think.

For low end, I'm hearing that $500 was too low and $1000 was too hig. Maybe we'll go $750 next time around.

Medium should stay at $1500?

High end $2500? $3500? What's the magic number? Or do we do it in reverse, selecting the best functioning parts for a high-end rig and use that price as the target?...

September 20, 2007 10:26:59 PM

I liked all the price ranges. 1000 clams is fine for a low end system, as was 1500 for a med.
I don't really care about high-end though, I say the sky is the limit. Just make the most retardedly fast system you guys can.
September 21, 2007 1:33:41 AM

"retardedly fast"... methinks that should be the name of the category instead of "high-end".

;) 
September 21, 2007 2:43:40 AM

Retardedly fast is an oxymoron. Perhaps "stupidly fast" would be better.
September 21, 2007 3:07:03 AM

I also say for the high end system to ignore price and get the most extreme performance possible.
September 21, 2007 8:08:39 AM

Crashman said:
Ah, but Luscious, I'm still thinking about whether the Mozart TX would work with a big square radiator!

Very simple answer - yes! You're referring to the Magicool xtreme quad 480 radiator right? I'm not sure if the screw holes will line up, since the case was designed for two dual 120mm rads. But to answer your question, if there's not enough room behind the CD bays for the fans/radiator depth, you can simply mount the radiator inside and the fans on the outside, with the case metal in-between, like a sandwich. Just make sure you use fan guards on those 120mm units. I know it may not look "nice", but it WILL let you get away with it. You may also want to dremel away the four cheese-grater grills to maximize your airflow.

If you're still worried about depth issues, mount the rad and the fans from the outside. The only mod work you'll need here is drill two holes for the tubes, but that's easy.

I've had similar builds (horizontal HTPC cases in particular) where the radiator/fan wouldn't fit inside a particular case and I cheekily got around it by reversing the mounting scenario and placing the gear around on the outside. It will work just as well. The radbox idea from Swiftech is just the same - it fits pretty much any case letting you use single, dual and triple 120mm radiators. You will want to make sure not to bump it though, and be aware of the extra depth your case will take up. I also like to keep 1" space between the fans and radiator to eliminate the airflow "dead zone" of the fans and use either rubber grommets or silicone fan silencers when mounting the fans, but that's just a personal preference.

BTW, if you're using THAT many 120mm fans, make sure they're no louder than 14db each. You might want to connect them to a 5.25" bay rheostat.
September 21, 2007 8:35:03 AM

Rheostat? Hardly. I'd use quiet fans or, if a lower than stock speed is desired, wire them directly for 7v.
September 21, 2007 5:51:46 PM

I would like to know if the Antec p180b Be able to be factored into one of these builds?
September 21, 2007 6:52:12 PM

The article was a good one and did exactly what it sat out to do.

Does anyone know of a water cooling kit for the Silverstone TJ09?
September 21, 2007 8:49:07 PM

Water cooling kits are not usually made for specific cases.
September 24, 2007 1:03:05 PM

Well I'm no DIY casebuilder nor an electrical engineer - and I don't know and ohm from amp - but I would like to build a very nice high end liquid cooled system in the $3500 - $4,000 price range. I've been planning this project for ages now and the prices have generally dropped to the point where it's time to do it (when I started my dream rig was running at around $6000).

Ever since I started dreaming up configurations I planned on using one of Koolance's water cooled cases, primarily because they seemed to know their business and their systems were complete, seemed easy to use, and most of all, required no mods on my part. After reading this article on high-end SBM systems, however, I'm wonering if the Koolance cases (particularly the PC3-726BK case) is still a good choice for a SLI configuration with water cooling for the DRAM chips, hard drives, and video cards, and with an Enermax Infiniti EIN720AWT 720 Watt PS and dual EVGA 640-P2-N821-AR GeForce 8800GTS video cards - which is my current choice? Any suggestions, comments or caveats would be appreciated. Thanks.
September 26, 2007 6:26:33 PM

I liked the price ranges, but would also like to see the high end system opened up for the most radical system you can muster up.

And I'm quite happy that the case you used required no modding of the motherboard, which would void the warranty. Sorry I missed the part about the video cards not fitting.
September 26, 2007 7:04:54 PM

dbland3 said:
... I'm wonering if the Koolance cases (particularly the PC3-726BK case) is still a good choice for a SLI configuration with water cooling for the DRAM chips, hard drives, and video cards, and with an Enermax Infiniti EIN720AWT 720 Watt PS and dual EVGA 640-P2-N821-AR GeForce 8800GTS video cards - which is my current choice? Any suggestions, comments or caveats would be appreciated. Thanks.


There's tons of opinions on this topic and not many will agree with mine, but here it is:

I've always been impressed with Koolance products. I think the ease of setup, quality, performance, and appearance of the Koolance systems is well worth the money. I'm also a fan of the external kits rather than internal as they're just easier to fill/empty. If you really prefer the integrated design, I'd step it up to the PC3-736BK. Reason being is that the additional room will allow better air circulation for the motherboard. If you're going with water on the CPU, there will be very little air circulation over the motherboard and that could cause problems with high overclocks.

IMO, you're trying to cool too much for any water system to be realistic though. Remember that your constraint will be the 1/4" ID tubing, which will restrict the flow somewhat. If that were eliminated, your results would be much better. However since I'm not aware of any 1/3" ID heatsinks for the video cards (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong ;)  ), you're pretty much stuck with the restricted flow. Turbulent flow is what will give optimal cooling, regardless of how many fans etc.. The more things you hook up, the harder the pump has to work and slower the flow will be. Also more heat is being transferred from one device to another. So by the time the last component gets the water, it may be too warm to be better than an air solution would have been. Usually to cool everything you've listed a DIYer would use more than one pump, which isn't really an attractive option with the Koolance systems.

If you're going quad core, water may show some benefits on the CPU. For C2D, air cooling provides very comparable results.

If you went with Crucial Ballistix PC2-800 RAM, they wouldn't require any additional cooling to get the maximum results (which are quite impressive around 1215-1235MHz from my experience).

Also the hard drives will benefit very little from additional cooling, depending upon the model. Seagates run very cool as opposed to Western Digitals, etc..

For me, I'd just cool the 2x GPUs and possibly the CPU. For everything else just make sure you have good air circulation in the case and you'll be fine. The main reason I say this is that you're going with GTS cards, so you're not going to be setting any records anyway. I'm assuming you just want decent overclocking and performance results.

I'm sure some of these DIYers will quote better results from their systems, but they won't be anything drastic.
!