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Biggest Bottleneck

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September 30, 2007 6:22:57 PM

My system is:

Duo core E6750
600Watt PSU
8800 gts 320mb
p5k board with a fsb of 1333 mhz


And

IDE connected hard drive at 7200 rpm
1 gig of 333 mhz ram



Is the hard drive of the ram the biggest bottleneck for my CPU, which one shall i upgrade first, thanks

More about : biggest bottleneck

September 30, 2007 6:37:24 PM

8800 gts 320mb to 8800gtx 768 meg then 1 more gig ram
September 30, 2007 6:42:51 PM

sirkillalot said:
8800 gts 320mb to 8800gtx 768 meg then 1 more gig ram


Lol no that wasnt my question

Do I upgrade my ram first or my harddrive, I dont need to upgrade my gfx card because I cant tell the difference btween 60 fps and 70 fps :) 
Related resources
September 30, 2007 6:52:04 PM

will there be alot of difference between:

333mhz ram, and 1066 mhz

IDE connected 7200rpm drive, SATA 10000
September 30, 2007 7:30:03 PM

ShortRef said:
will there be alot of difference between:

333mhz ram, and 1066 mhz

IDE connected 7200rpm drive, SATA 10000

Not normally.

But if you have Core2, you should have DDR2 RAM, so I'm guessing you have 667mhz RAM. You must have forgotten to multiply by 2. ;) 

I'd say just buy another gig, and thats about all you need.
September 30, 2007 7:52:06 PM

On cpu-z



So it says 333mhz, its actaully running at 667?
September 30, 2007 8:23:15 PM

Yes it is. It is ddr2 ram, thus double data rate, so you take the speed it says its running at and double it, and that is your actual speed. System is good mate. Add another gig of ram and you have a very ideal system. Definitely kills mine :( 
Cheers!
a b à CPUs
September 30, 2007 9:00:54 PM

Another vote for adding another GB of DDR2-667.
September 30, 2007 9:59:51 PM

I'd have to say RAM too.New games like bioshock need 2 gig of ram for a smooth experiance.A SATA hard drive is something you can get next and will improve loading times but the RAM's gonna make more difference for sure:) 
September 30, 2007 10:13:06 PM

Since ram is so cheap now its definatly worth it to go to 2gb of dual channel ram.

September 30, 2007 10:52:16 PM

Our modern systems just love RAM, even while they do not use it effectively. It is a shame we can not overcome the hard drive bottleneck. Maybe the new flash based drives will help.
a c 133 à CPUs
September 30, 2007 11:06:03 PM

everything is well balanced....so add 1 more gig and your good to go(or at least you should be)...
October 1, 2007 12:36:44 AM

Be sure that the extra gig of ram will work in dual channel with the current gig, otherwise you'll lose a bit of performance in that area. Personally, I would just buy a 2X1gb ddr2-800 memory kit that's running at 4-4-4-12 (Better timings than what you have atm) since prices are so low at this time. You can get a very good kit for around $60 after rebate.
October 1, 2007 6:27:48 AM

hard drive is the biggest bottle neck

you want 3 hard drives and one is raptor is better - you builk regular stuff is on the raid0 thats 2 drives and games/apps on the raptor


or if you have alot of data raptor os and raid as the second drive


dual drive raid
October 1, 2007 7:59:48 AM

Yes I was going to get a fresh set of ram :) 

Ram for breakfast :F

Is there much difference between 800mhz and 1066mhz ram. My motherboard says it officially supports 800mhz ram, and natively supports 1066mhz ram, what does this mean? Thanks :D 
October 1, 2007 8:02:42 AM

Hard drive will always be the biggest bottleneck in your system. However, you'll need to drop extra big bucks, when you don't get that much in return.

Raptors 150Gb are 150~200 bucks each, when a 500Gb is 100bucks. Having two of them in RAID will slightly boost your startup time by a few seconds.

Solid State Drivers are even more expensive. A 32Gb cost around 500bucks.

IMO, you should improve your RAM timing to DDR2-800, upgrade it to 2Gb, than dropping the big bucks on the hard drives. You'll see a substantial boost from switching from 667Mhz to 800Mhz.
October 1, 2007 8:41:41 AM

Quote:
would i be being a prick if i mentioned that the word should be effective instead of actual?

no, not a prick, just comical :p 
October 1, 2007 9:50:15 AM

Go for another gig! hdd doesnt do much at all!
I had 1 gb for like 2 months and had to suffer on medium settings on fear...
as with 1 gb it would lag each time i enter a new room.
if i go to task bar i see it usuing 1.25gb of ram when i only have 1.024gb...

i would get around 60fps when standing still the sec i walk it drops to ~ 23..... WTF right?
October 1, 2007 10:13:54 AM

I was getting <20fps inside Titan's on BF2142 with 1GB... checked ram usage while playing and it was using >1.2GB... upgraded to 2GB and now I get 80FPS max, 60fps min

(ignore the "you need DDR-800" comments, Intel CPU's see only marginal improvements using faster non-1:1 memory types, so for your 1333mhz fsb CPU you do only need DDR2-667, which is what you have)
October 1, 2007 12:19:13 PM

I think 2 Gigs of ram are the norm nowadays. Not too long ago I set a E6400 based system and at the time RAM was super expensive so I only got 1Gig. I actually thought there was something malfunctioning.
When prices dropped I got another gig and voila, it was as if everyting finally had fallen into place.
And that was a system with the 7600 GS, with your Graphics card the need for 2Gigs is even greater.

Oh, and as another poster said earlier, Core2 DUOs actually take performance hits when they run with RAM that isn't 1:1 with their FSB so definitely go with another 667 rather than 2 new 800...
Ain't worth it.
October 1, 2007 12:30:48 PM

The truth is the HDD is the biggest bottleneck of them all. The HDD has been falling behind for sometime now, because everything starts from the HDD. From the HDD to the Ram to the CPU, the HDD is the one with the moving parts which is why its limited.
October 1, 2007 12:50:48 PM

There you have it really. From an academic standpoint pretty much everyone agrees that the biggest bottleneck comes from the HDD. Not YOUR IDE in particular as much as today's HDDs in general.

On the other hand, since you're asking which should you upgrade first the answer is simple:

Get another identical to the one you currently have RAM DIMM and be done with it. ;) 
October 1, 2007 12:55:26 PM

RAM first, you'll see a big difference immediately, since the CPU won't be as busy swapping memory to the disk. Even the fastest hard drives are always the slowest part of a system.
October 1, 2007 1:06:53 PM

nhobo said:
RAM first, you'll see a big difference immediately, since the CPU won't be as busy swapping memory to the disk. Even the fastest hard drives are always the slowest part of a system.


Ram is even faster than the CPU, don't know where you heard that from. :heink:  We are talking about speed/performance in general terms.

If you were to have 4GB of Ram, the fastest CPU around and the fastest HDD, you'd find that the biggest bottleneck would be the HDD. From a mechanical (moving parts) point of view the HDD is the slowest of the bunch.
October 1, 2007 1:11:29 PM

nhobo said:
Even the fastest hard drives are always the slowest part of a system.


Isn't that what I just said? The HDD is the bigger bottleneck in the system, then you say Ram first??? :heink: 
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2007 1:28:15 PM

RAM first, then if you feel the need, a better harddrive.
But, even the fastest drives will still be the main bottleneck in any relatively fast, modern system. The technology is simply old and slow compared to the rest of todays components. You will feel a bigger improvement right away by adding another Gig of memory. Add more memory for your apps and games to make use of, and minimize the amount of time your systems spends hitting the harddrive.
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2007 1:47:02 PM

I must agree with systemlord. Although it would be beneficial to have the 2nd Gig of RAM, the difference in overall system performance and responsiveness when upgrading from a 7200 RPM drive to a 10,000 RPM drive is truly amazing. Those who haven't experienced this first hand can't imagine what a day and night difference it makes. To help bring the big picture into perspective, CPU's operate in Ghz, RAM in Mhz, Video in Khz, and 7200 RPM HDD's at 12mS access time = 83.33 Hz, which represents a HUGE bottleneck. 10,000 RPM Raptor at 8mS access time = 125 Hz, which represents a 67% improvement, and much less bottleneck. 1 / Time = Frequency.

Check out Tom's Hard Drive Charts: http://www23.tomshardware.com/storage.html?modelx=33&mo...

Upgrade to a Raptor, then later add the 2nd Gig of RAM whenever you can. I gaurantee that you'll be immediately impressed with the results.

Hope this helps,

Comp :sol: 
October 1, 2007 1:47:29 PM

jitpublisher said:
Add more memory for your apps and games to make use of, and minimize the amount of time your systems spends hitting the harddrive.


He hit the nail in the head.
That is why although the HDD is the biggest bottleneck getting more ram is what you should do.
RAM won't improve startup performance but it will minimize HDD read/writes operations when the system/app/game is already running.

So, unless you have the $$$ and the intention of getting those solid state storage monsters (with merely 32 GBs of storage vs several hundreds) even though the slowest part of your PC is and will be the HDD what you need to fight it is more RAM.

So, anyone that tells you that you need a faster HDD or some weird Raptor/RAID hybrid either doesn't know a thing about being practical or has a lot of $$$ and time to spare...

As I stated earlier, what you need is to get exactly the same DIMM of RAM as the one you already have so as to double the size and make use of the Dual DDR channel. Your computer won't start any faster but once it has started it will run a lot faster, trust me.
October 1, 2007 2:52:32 PM

Ok there are alot of people saying upgrade ram and a few people saying upgrade HDD, well for the most part both are right, but your question is which should you upgrade first, well the ones saying RAM are more correct, this is why.

The slowest componet in your PC is your HDD, this has been coverd everyone here agrees.
ok that thats established, now why ram? well with 1GB of ram in instances where your running most modern games you need more than 1GB of physical swap space, and when you do not have more than 1GB the CPU has to start swaping the memory it doesnt need at the moment to HDD and swap data from the HDD to the memory. now if you had 2 gigs, it could just store everything the program(game) needs into ram, then it would not need to access the HDD anymore, this will yield a more noticable increase in performance than upgrading the HDD.

if you upgrade to a faster HDD/RAID array your CPU will still have to access the drive the same amount it is now, but it will do it alittle faster but it will not yeild the performance increase you want.

so you should upgrade in this order

More RAM = Greater performance
Faster HDD = quicker map/program loads.
October 1, 2007 3:30:15 PM

You have a good deal of valuable info to utilize here.

So imo it comes down to deciding WHERE you want to see the performance in your pc. Since you are choosing between the 2 and both opinions are solid and reliable : if you are an avid gamer upgrade to 2gbs ram is the hands down decision here since most of the games will be utilizing your virtual memory to a certain extend to make up the deficit on your ram. If you want to see the performance boost in your transfer rates and ftp or network access etc then by all means the upgrade to the Raptor X will impress you ( and have a subsequent affect on gaming performance to due to hdd access time - although this is kind of like treating the symptom instead of going right to the cause ).

GL
October 1, 2007 5:15:51 PM

Can any one tell me my system biggest bottleneck?

Q6600 Go stepping stock speed 2.4+thermalright 120 extrme
GA p35 DS3P
2 GIG Crucial Ballistic tracer 8500
Ati 1950XT
Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 SATA 3.0Gb/s 500-GB Hard Drive
Pc power cooling 750 Quad psu
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2007 5:19:56 PM

You don't really have one, it's a very nice system. :) 

Update your video card in 2009, that's about it.
October 1, 2007 5:57:48 PM

Ok RAM :) 

2 gigs of 667mhz

Or

2 gigs of 1066 mhz
October 1, 2007 6:11:18 PM

Well theres nothing wrong with my framerate I dont think, a few stutters here and there in games like oblivion and quake wars, but the frame rate is between 40 and 75 and beyond on oblivion (max settings, 1280x768 blah blah) and locked at 60 on QW, occasionaly drops and locks at 30.


What I want to know is, how much of a difference will 1066 mhz ram compared to 667 mhz ram (both at 2gb), and where will I see this difference
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2007 6:24:14 PM

The difference will not be noticeable unless you overclock a lot.
October 1, 2007 6:27:11 PM

Would it then be safer to buy 2 gigs of 1ghz ram for the future?
a b à CPUs
October 1, 2007 6:34:18 PM

Only if the future includes buying a $60 CPU cooler and overclocking the c*** out of the E6750. If you're leaving it at stock or just mildly OC'd you're better off with the cheaper RAM. You can use the price difference toward adding a SATA disk, for example.
October 1, 2007 9:06:38 PM

I have bf2 it only use 1gb out of 2gb run smooth as butter
October 1, 2007 9:33:24 PM

Run it 1:1 with your quad pumped FSB rather then your normal FSB and you should notic a difference.
October 2, 2007 4:42:36 AM

ShortRef said:
Well theres nothing wrong with my framerate I dont think, a few stutters here and there in games like oblivion and quake wars, but the frame rate is between 40 and 75 and beyond on oblivion (max settings, 1280x768 blah blah) and locked at 60 on QW, occasionaly drops and locks at 30.


What I want to know is, how much of a difference will 1066 mhz ram compared to 667 mhz ram (both at 2gb), and where will I see this difference


ShortRef I upgraded to 2GB of Ram before I bought my Raptor 150GB playing Oblivion and I noticed a bigger difference when upgrading to the Raptor than upgrading to the 2GB of Ram. Of this I am sure!

That shutter you speak of is do to the HDD having to access data, and when this happens you'll shutter as a lack of data causes this.
October 2, 2007 6:01:46 AM

It was funny reading two pages of replies before anyone stopped to ponder what the applications were since there is no such thing as one univeral bottleneck in that system.

The easy answer is quit thinking either/or on the memory and HDD. Either you are:

A) Trying to cheap out on these because you're planning on scrapping the whole thing and starting over soon, which means now is the time to do that.

OR

B) You already know you need both memory and HDD. Frankly the system should have been built with two drives originally, but not raided (if you want raid, add yet another drive or two also so you have at least two independant volumes) so there is division of near concurrent I/O between the drives. While many games will run from 1GB memory, some won't and even those that will, will have drastically faster level reload time when that 2nd Gig of memory is caching the files. Similarly, game exits and resuming OS GUI and other applications will be dramatically faster when these files remain cached instead of flushed when the game is cached. 2GB is certainly not always necessary when considering only one task at a time, but in overall system usability a modern day system should have more than 1GB unless it's only a generic email/office/web kiosk usage.

A Gig of DDR2 is very inexpensive, as is a 2nd HDD (need not be some uber 1TB 10K drive either, anything modern is a good start). These two items can be had for under $100, if you're not willing to spend $100 you're not very serious about ungrading the system. If you insist on only buying one or the other now, look for sale prices on both and buy the one which has the best discounts currently. Since DDR2 has been pretty low and DDR2 chip market prices have dropped again, now just before the Christmas buying season might be the best time to pick up the memory, although historically memory had been cheaper in Spring AFTER the Christmas buying season, so you take you chances either way but really a gig of DDR2 is cheap enough it's not much loss either way, just buy it already as waiting just means you lose the performane benefits until you do.-
October 3, 2007 2:56:12 AM

Valid points, almost every last one of them.

I have had 3 HDDs for so long I had forgotten the why of it.
The games/heavy apps I install I always install on a drive other than the system one. Makes all the difference in the world, especially if Azureus or sth is running on the background!

Anyway, the result is the same. I think you knew from the start that you'll be needing both. If you can't/won't upgrade both now go for the RAM, then save up for a good SATA II HDD, if possible a 10.000 RPM one. Use one for system and other minor apps and the other for games and more heavy duty apps and you'll see great differences.

It will be a lot safer too! Just two days ago I had to go through the horror of saving my entire HDD data from oblivion when Azureus+Neverwinter nights 2 both tried to save data at the same time (Azureus tried to save a file it had just DLed the exact time I had hit the QuickSave button). Now NW2 was at the other HDD but this game keeps it's profile/save data at the My Documents folder that resided in my 1st HDD. Luckily after scanning the entire HDD with a partition recovery program I was able to reconstruct the MBR and be saved but this served as an invaluable heads-up...
October 3, 2007 3:49:54 AM

ShortRef said:
Do I upgrade my ram first or my harddrive, I dont need to upgrade my gfx card because I cant tell the difference btween 60 fps and 70 fps :) 
You'd say otherwise if you were playing the Crysis beta. :lol: 
October 3, 2007 4:00:43 AM

Your case it definitely the bottleneck.
October 3, 2007 6:34:00 AM

Flip a coin, either way you know that having both (RAM & Raptor) will make your system very responsive.
October 3, 2007 9:04:18 AM

It's a little late but I say upgrade the ram first with an identical stick in dual channel, because you will almost double your bandwidth and that will make a difference. The extra gig won't hurt either, and it's also cheaper. Then as quick as you can get the Raptor, because they are sweet and you will see a boost.
a b à CPUs
October 3, 2007 10:53:03 AM

Jeez these ram junkies are feeding you rubbish advice mate.

Get a second HDD and go RAID0.

This will spped up your system far more than another stick of ram ... using today's software and games anyway.

The slowest path is from the HDD in your scenario.


October 3, 2007 4:10:26 PM

So:

Ill get ram first, still deciding on either 667 mhz or 1066 mhz. Ill either get a raptor and put it all on that, or as keeperos said, ill get a cheapy harddrive for my system, and put the stuff that I want to load fast on my raptor, yes?

Someone explain dual channel :)  And how to check if my current ram can do dual channel , thanks.
a c 133 à CPUs
October 3, 2007 4:58:17 PM

Reynod said:
Jeez these ram junkies are feeding you rubbish advice mate.

Get a second HDD and go RAID0.

This will spped up your system far more than another stick of ram ... using today's software and games anyway.

The slowest path is from the HDD in your scenario.

True but we are talking about 1 stick of ram in single channel...

I have experienced this first hand while building a computer for a friend...all i can say is....exit a ram intensive game and listen to that non stop skipping(onboard audio) audio while windows puts part of the page file back to ram(this also has a nice slow reloading desktop that goes with it....).....add one more stick of ram...bang its all gone....and the system is a fair bit more responsive too....

I know old systems without dual channel dont do this....but this new p35/6750 based system did....

Raid is good too...but AFTER you have the ram you need....

EDIT
dual channel(its kind of like raid for ram....well close enough for this discussion) is achieved by running 2 sticks with the same size and spec....there are normally colored ram slots to show you where to put the ram(put both sticks on the same color on most modern boards). In your case use both yellow or black slots...not one in each....so

| slot 1 stick | slot 2 empty | slot 3 stick | slot 4 empty |

It is recommenced that you get matched sticks but new Intels current chipsets are friendly enough to let you dual channel ram with the same specs......even different sizes(not recommended)...Best bet is to get another stick of whatever you have now....
!