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Sony, Toshiba join forces for next-generation DVD standard

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Anonymous
April 21, 2005 4:03:02 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Sony, Toshiba join forces for next-generation DVD standard

Two groups led by Toshiba Corp. and Sony Corp. that have been at odds
over the standard for next-generation DVDs have reached an agreement
and are in the final stages of deciding on a third standard, it has
been learned.

The two sides are reportedly aiming to come to an agreement on the new
high-capacity standard this month. If a single standard is adopted, it
will avoid incompatibility such as that which occurred between VHS and
Beta video players and tapes.

Japanese firms have been aiming to launch a next-generation DVD
standard at the end of this year. Toshiba Corp. and NEC Corp. have been
promoting the low-cost HD DVD format. Sony Corp. and Matsushita
Electronic Industrial Co. (Panasonic), on the other hand, have favored
the higher-capacity Blu-ray Disc standard. The two standards are
incompatible, and both sides have been at odds over them for the past
three years.

In the entertainment industry, Warner Bros. and Universal have remained
in the HD DVD camp, while others such as Walt Disney and 20th Century
Fox have supported Blu-ray. Under such opposition, digital content such
as movies would be viewable only with the corresponding player, and
this conflict has threatened to hinder software sales.

In a bid to reach a compromise, Sony Corp. and Toshiba Corp., which
have led the two opposing groups, have come together and are reportedly
in the final stages of reaching an agreement. They are reportedly
looking to produce a "third standard" that incorporates the benefits of
both formats. (Mainichi Shimbun, Japan, April 21, 2005)

http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050421p2a00m0bu010000c...
_______________________________________________________________________________


(Unless this is a mistranslation, it appears that THE DEAL has been cut
..... and a lot sooner than expected)




here's another similar report from yesterday:

___________________________________________________
http://www.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtml?type=tech...

Report: Sony, Toshiba Discuss Single DVD Standard
Wed Apr 20, 2005 04:11 PM ET

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sony Corp. (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) and
Toshiba Corp. (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research) are working on an
agreement that could come as early as this month to jointly develop a
new unified standard for next-generation DVDs, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun
reported in its Thursday online edition.

The report said Sony and Toshiba stepped up closed-door negotiations
around February to find a resolution to the standoff between their
competing products. As the leaders of the two camps supporting rival
standards, Sony and Toshiba have waged a three-year battle that
involves nearly 200 companies worldwide.

After reaching a basic agreement that a unified standard would be
desirable, they are now looking to develop a hybrid standard that takes
advantage of each standard's strengths, the Nikkei said.

Sony is said to have proposed using Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD
software technology. Toshiba has presented the idea of using HD DVD's
disc structure, which is closer to that of current DVDs, and employing
Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology, the report said.

Although the companies have yet to forge a detailed agreement, the
talks are expected to produce a workable solution since both companies
are likely to be eager to avoid a repeat of the VHS-Beta videocassette
war.

The Nikkei report said Sony and Toshiba have already begun briefing
Walt Disney Co. (DIS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and AOL Time Warner
Inc. (TWX.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , as well as Hollywood movie
studios, for approval of a unified standard and to pave the way for the
signing of an official agreement between the rival camps.
___________________________________________________
Anonymous
April 21, 2005 7:20:44 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:
> Sony, Toshiba join forces for next-generation DVD standard
>

It's Deja-vu all over again.

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?
Anonymous
April 22, 2005 3:10:03 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

On 21 Apr 2005 12:03:02 -0700, Radeon350@yahoo.com wrote:

>Sony, Toshiba join forces for next-generation DVD standard
>
>Two groups led by Toshiba Corp. and Sony Corp. that have been at odds
>over the standard for next-generation DVDs have reached an agreement
>and are in the final stages of deciding on a third standard, it has
>been learned.
>
>The two sides are reportedly aiming to come to an agreement on the new
>high-capacity standard this month. If a single standard is adopted, it
>will avoid incompatibility such as that which occurred between VHS and
>Beta video players and tapes.
>
>Japanese firms have been aiming to launch a next-generation DVD
>standard at the end of this year. Toshiba Corp. and NEC Corp. have been
>promoting the low-cost HD DVD format. Sony Corp. and Matsushita
>Electronic Industrial Co. (Panasonic), on the other hand, have favored
>the higher-capacity Blu-ray Disc standard. The two standards are
>incompatible, and both sides have been at odds over them for the past
>three years.
>
>In the entertainment industry, Warner Bros. and Universal have remained
>in the HD DVD camp, while others such as Walt Disney and 20th Century
>Fox have supported Blu-ray.

Figures these two greedy studios would be supporting Blu-Ray.
I remember they were the LAST studios on-board with DVD when it
arrived. They let Warner and MGM, etc, do all the ground work.
That piece of s--- Michael Eisner may be gone from Disney, but
his greedy spirit lives on.
-Rich
Related resources
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 12:55:59 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Or the original news article just got it wrong. Wota surprise.

Alpha <logos1@trip.net> wrote in message
news:116ioraledf4v73@corp.supernews.com...
> http://apnews.excite.com/article/20050422/D89KF3RG0.htm...
April 23, 2005 7:31:09 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

I'll believe in the unity when I see results. Personally, I think this will
be decided just like everything else--they both will release their product
and only one will emerge the winner through stores and studios. Just like
divix/dvd, HDcable&Directv/voom, vhs/beta, etc. And sadly, just like
everything else, some will choose the right one others will have an
expensive coaster or something for target practice. When they come out,
choose wisely!


<Radeon350@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114110182.784758.41370@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Sony, Toshiba join forces for next-generation DVD standard
>
> Two groups led by Toshiba Corp. and Sony Corp. that have been at odds
> over the standard for next-generation DVDs have reached an agreement
> and are in the final stages of deciding on a third standard, it has
> been learned.
>
> The two sides are reportedly aiming to come to an agreement on the new
> high-capacity standard this month. If a single standard is adopted, it
> will avoid incompatibility such as that which occurred between VHS and
> Beta video players and tapes.
>
> Japanese firms have been aiming to launch a next-generation DVD
> standard at the end of this year. Toshiba Corp. and NEC Corp. have been
> promoting the low-cost HD DVD format. Sony Corp. and Matsushita
> Electronic Industrial Co. (Panasonic), on the other hand, have favored
> the higher-capacity Blu-ray Disc standard. The two standards are
> incompatible, and both sides have been at odds over them for the past
> three years.
>
> In the entertainment industry, Warner Bros. and Universal have remained
> in the HD DVD camp, while others such as Walt Disney and 20th Century
> Fox have supported Blu-ray. Under such opposition, digital content such
> as movies would be viewable only with the corresponding player, and
> this conflict has threatened to hinder software sales.
>
> In a bid to reach a compromise, Sony Corp. and Toshiba Corp., which
> have led the two opposing groups, have come together and are reportedly
> in the final stages of reaching an agreement. They are reportedly
> looking to produce a "third standard" that incorporates the benefits of
> both formats. (Mainichi Shimbun, Japan, April 21, 2005)
>
> http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20050421p2a00m0bu010000c...
> _______________________________________________________________________________
>
>
> (Unless this is a mistranslation, it appears that THE DEAL has been cut
> .... and a lot sooner than expected)
>
>
>
>
> here's another similar report from yesterday:
>
> ___________________________________________________
> http://www.reuters.com/audi/newsArticle.jhtml?type=tech...
>
> Report: Sony, Toshiba Discuss Single DVD Standard
> Wed Apr 20, 2005 04:11 PM ET
>
> NEW YORK (Reuters) - Sony Corp. (6758.T: Quote, Profile, Research) and
> Toshiba Corp. (6502.T: Quote, Profile, Research) are working on an
> agreement that could come as early as this month to jointly develop a
> new unified standard for next-generation DVDs, The Nihon Keizai Shimbun
> reported in its Thursday online edition.
>
> The report said Sony and Toshiba stepped up closed-door negotiations
> around February to find a resolution to the standoff between their
> competing products. As the leaders of the two camps supporting rival
> standards, Sony and Toshiba have waged a three-year battle that
> involves nearly 200 companies worldwide.
>
> After reaching a basic agreement that a unified standard would be
> desirable, they are now looking to develop a hybrid standard that takes
> advantage of each standard's strengths, the Nikkei said.
>
> Sony is said to have proposed using Blu-ray's disc structure and HD DVD
> software technology. Toshiba has presented the idea of using HD DVD's
> disc structure, which is closer to that of current DVDs, and employing
> Sony's multi-layer data-recording technology, the report said.
>
> Although the companies have yet to forge a detailed agreement, the
> talks are expected to produce a workable solution since both companies
> are likely to be eager to avoid a repeat of the VHS-Beta videocassette
> war.
>
> The Nikkei report said Sony and Toshiba have already begun briefing
> Walt Disney Co. (DIS.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and AOL Time Warner
> Inc. (TWX.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , as well as Hollywood movie
> studios, for approval of a unified standard and to pave the way for the
> signing of an official agreement between the rival camps.
> ___________________________________________________
>
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 7:31:10 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

"SlimJim" <someone@somewhere.org> wrote in message
news:1Ttae.12049$go4.294@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> I'll believe in the unity when I see results. Personally, I think this
> will be decided just like everything else--they both will release their
> product and only one will emerge the winner through stores and studios.
> Just like divix/dvd, HDcable&Directv/voom, vhs/beta, etc. And sadly, just
> like everything else, some will choose the right one others will have an
> expensive coaster or something for target practice. When they come out,
> choose wisely!

Or don't choose at all. Wait until the market's direction is clear. It
isn't as if high def discs will allow you to see something you couldn't
otherwise see. It's just an improvement in resolution.

My guess is that Both Sony and Toshiba are well aware that 2 incompatible
standards will prove to be a disaster. They're going to do everything in
their power to avoid making this mistake. Also, keep in mind that players
for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will also have to play standard DVD and CD. The cost
of this backwards compatibility will be a major factor in the success (or
failure) of high def.

Norm Strong
Anonymous
April 23, 2005 9:16:32 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:09:38 -0700, <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote:

>
>"SlimJim" <someone@somewhere.org> wrote in message
>news:1Ttae.12049$go4.294@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> I'll believe in the unity when I see results. Personally, I think this
>> will be decided just like everything else--they both will release their
>> product and only one will emerge the winner through stores and studios.
>> Just like divix/dvd, HDcable&Directv/voom, vhs/beta, etc. And sadly, just
>> like everything else, some will choose the right one others will have an
>> expensive coaster or something for target practice. When they come out,
>> choose wisely!
>
>Or don't choose at all. Wait until the market's direction is clear. It
>isn't as if high def discs will allow you to see something you couldn't
>otherwise see. It's just an improvement in resolution.
>
>My guess is that Both Sony and Toshiba are well aware that 2 incompatible
>standards will prove to be a disaster. They're going to do everything in
>their power to avoid making this mistake. Also, keep in mind that players
>for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will also have to play standard DVD and CD. The cost
>of this backwards compatibility will be a major factor in the success (or
>failure) of high def.
>
>Norm Strong
>

Of course, it seems like going Blu-Ray will make this cost
much higher than HD-DVD. Someone has to pay for an completely
new disc manufacturing technology, HD is close to current DVD
in configuration, while Blu-Ray is nothing like it.
-Rich
Anonymous
April 24, 2005 6:10:07 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <-7qdnfQwv4jd7vffRVn-1A@comcast.com>,
<normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote:

>It isn't as if high def discs will allow you to see something you couldn't
>otherwise see. It's just an improvement in resolution.

Which will indeed let you see things you couldn't otherwise see.

>My guess is that Both Sony and Toshiba are well aware that 2 incompatible
>standards will prove to be a disaster. They're going to do everything in
>their power to avoid making this mistake.

But it could still happen anyway. Think how wars happen, even though
everybody proclaims "we don't want war".

>Also, keep in mind that players
>for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will also have to play standard DVD and CD. The cost
>of this backwards compatibility will be a major factor in the success (or
>failure) of high def.

Why should the cost of this backwards compatibility be different for
Blu-Ray versus HD-DVD?
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 12:24:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <bl2112-347465.00563624042005@news.uswest.net>,
Black Locust <bl2112@hotmail.com> wrote:

>It's better just to wait it out for a few
>years and stick with regular DVD for the time being(which is more than
>good enough IMO and is HARDLY long in the tooth yet).

Its capacity is falling behind, though.

Consider that when the first CD-ROMs came out in 1985, typical hard
drive capacities were 20-40MB, so CDs were *huge*. It wasn't until the
early 1990s--nearly a decade later--that hard disks of the size of a
CD-ROM became commonplace.

Then DVDs came out in 1996, and typical hard drives were equalling their
capacity by about a year later.

Now these new Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs are already only a fraction of the
size of typical hard drives--and they haven't even come out yet!

Makes you wonder about optical storage, doesn't it?
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 6:26:44 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <ldo-A60F3F.20245224042005@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:

> Its capacity is falling behind, though.

For DVD-Rom/PC purposes perhaps, but for movies and tv series(which is
what DVDs are primarily used for), I think they're still more than
sufficient. I mean, the capacity of your standard audio CD has long
since fallen behind todays standards, yet it's still hanging in there
with no replacement format in sight. Makes you wonder how much life is
left in the current DVD standard? I think a lot more than 'some' people
are predicting.
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we." - George Dumbya Bush
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 6:34:38 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <4bKdnVkusvwBbfbfRVn-pw@comcast.com>,
"Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@commiecast.net> wrote:

> Both groups are pretty far down the R&D path with the single technologies;
> how long of a delay do you think we'll see if they try to combine them?

Could be just a couple months or even possibly a year or so. I honestly
hope they do delay the launch because I have no interest in them right
now and all they'll do at this point is add a lot of confusion to the
already overcrowded DVD market. I don't even have an HDTV yet. And until
I do, I'll be ignoring these discs...

> Glenn D.
>
>
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we." - George Dumbya Bush
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 8:59:58 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote
in message news:ldo-A60F3F.20245224042005@lust.ihug.co.nz...
> Black Locust <bl2112@hotmail.com> wrote

>> It's better just to wait it out for a few years and stick
>> with regular DVD for the time being(which is more than
>> good enough IMO and is HARDLY long in the tooth yet).

> Its capacity is falling behind, though.

Doesnt matter a damn compared with picking the format that wont fly.

What matters is how many DVDs are needed for say TV
program seasons etc. Its still quite acceptible/practical.

> Consider that when the first CD-ROMs came out in 1985,
> typical hard drive capacities were 20-40MB, so CDs were
> *huge*. It wasn't until the early 1990s--nearly a decade later
> --that hard disks of the size of a CD-ROM became commonplace.

Irrelevant to what makes sense with DVD format today.

> Then DVDs came out in 1996, and typical hard drives
> were equalling their capacity by about a year later.

> Now these new Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs are already only a fraction of
> the size of typical hard drives--and they haven't even come out yet!

> Makes you wonder about optical storage, doesn't it?

Nope.
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 9:16:49 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Black Locust wrote:
> I mean, the capacity of your standard audio CD has long
> since fallen behind todays standards, yet it's still hanging in there
> with no replacement format in sight.

There are two. DVD-Audio and SACD. They have been around quite awhile
now. One of the reasons (among many) why they have not taken off is
because everyone's attention in on low quality digital downloads that
have DRM. It's amazing how these record companies are obsessed about
protecting these low quality files when their higher quality tracks on
CD's are wide open. Just craziness.
Anonymous
April 25, 2005 10:06:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <5C9be.736$Oz2.463@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Steve K." <steve@nodamnspam.com> wrote:

> There are two. DVD-Audio and SACD. They have been around quite awhile
> now.

I said replacement format. :)  These 2 tragic failures couldn't even
replace each other. Go check the CD your section at your local Best Buy
some time. I think you'll be surprised by the number of customers in
there digging through them. For what's now a technically "obsolete"
format that's fighting rampant piracy in the form of MP3 downloads, it's
still doing pretty well.
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we." - George Dumbya Bush
Anonymous
April 26, 2005 10:01:31 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Black Locust <bl2112@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bl2112-0B9273.02264325042005@news.uswest.net...
> Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote

>> Its capacity is falling behind, though.

> For DVD-Rom/PC purposes perhaps, but for movies
> and tv series (which is what DVDs are primarily used
> for), I think they're still more than sufficient.

Yeah, me too. Sure, a single physical disk would be better for say
TV program seasons and for movie series, but its no big deal really.

> I mean, the capacity of your standard audio
> CD has long since fallen behind todays standards,

Nope, not with the change to mp3 on the CD.

And any decent DVD player will play music off DVDs too.

> yet it's still hanging in there with no replacement format in sight.

Yes there is, mp3 and DVD.

> Makes you wonder how much life is left in the current DVD standard?
> I think a lot more than 'some' people are predicting.

Yeah, while ever movies fit on them, its likely to have a long life.

Likely at least as long as CDs have had.
Anonymous
April 26, 2005 10:01:32 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <3d50ktF6qgnbtU1@individual.net>,
"Rod Speed" <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Nope, not with the change to mp3 on the CD.
>
> And any decent DVD player will play music off DVDs too.

You mean DVD-A? Those things were dead before they even got a chance to
take off.

> Yes there is, mp3 and DVD.

MP3 isn't a replacement format for CD. All an MP3 is, is a compressed
version of the raw data tracks on a CD. Without CDs, MP3s cannot even
exist. You can't make MP3s to distribute on the internet until someone
gets their hands on the original CD copy of the recording

> Yeah, while ever movies fit on them, its likely to have a long life.
>
> Likely at least as long as CDs have had.

Agreed. Hell, if Laser Discs can last for 20 years with just a little
niche status, DVDs can certainly hold on for at least another 10 years
considering they're now the mainstream format of choice. When even
Grandma has a DVD player, that solidifies it's long life IMO. As proven
by the fact that even now, VHS is STILL not entirely dead, 30 YEARS(!!)
after it's introduction. When a format penetrates as many households as
VHS did and now DVD has done as well, it proves very difficult for the
technology to simply just die overnight.
--
"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people,
and neither do we." - George Dumbya Bush
Anonymous
April 26, 2005 3:46:35 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <5C9be.736$Oz2.463@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Steve K." <steve@nodamnspam.com> wrote:

>It's amazing how these record companies are obsessed about
>protecting these low quality files when their higher quality tracks on
>CD's are wide open. Just craziness.

Read "historical reasons". At the time the CD audio format was being
developed, "digital" was a new and wonderful thing. It had to be a
simple format because you couldn't build consumer appliances with
full-fledged computers in them, to do decompression, DRM or anything
like that. The idea of using CDs for computer data came later, which is
why CD-ROMs hold less data than audio CDs (the normal audio CD error
correction isn't quite good enough for computer data, so additional
error correction needs to be included).

For DVDs, it's quite the other way around. The DVD format is primarily a
computer data format, and DVD-Video, DVD-Audio and all the other DVD
applications simply build on this computer data format--put any such
disc into your PC and you'll see a UDF filesystem with files on it.

With Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, I assume they're doing the same thing as with
DVD: the discs are designed first and foremost to hold a computer
filesystem, and all applications are built out of files stored in the
filesystem.
Anonymous
April 26, 2005 5:21:18 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Black Locust <bl2112@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bl2112-B27B04.18184325042005@news.uswest.net...
> Rod Speed <rod_speed@yahoo.com> wrote

>> Black Locust <bl2112@hotmail.com> wrote

>>> I mean, the capacity of your standard audio
>>> CD has long since fallen behind todays standards,

>> Nope, not with the change to mp3 on the CD.

>> And any decent DVD player will play music off DVDs too.

> You mean DVD-A?

Nope.

> Those things were dead before they even got a chance to take off.

Sure, but any decent DVD player will play mp3 off data DVDs now.

>>> yet it's still hanging in there with no replacement format in sight.

>> Yes there is, mp3 and DVD.

> MP3 isn't a replacement format for CD.

Sure is on that capacity question you brought up.

> All an MP3 is, is a compressed version
> of the raw data tracks on a CD.

Irrelevant on that capacity question you brought up.

> Without CDs, MP3s cannot even exist.

Wrong. They can be created from scratch if you want.

> You can't make MP3s to distribute on the internet until someone
> gets their hands on the original CD copy of the recording

Only if its come from CD in the first place.

And music can be distributed in mp3 format too.

>> Yeah, while ever movies fit on them, its likely to have a long life.

>> Likely at least as long as CDs have had.

> Agreed. Hell, if Laser Discs can last for 20 years with just a little
> niche status, DVDs can certainly hold on for at least another 10 years
> considering they're now the mainstream format of choice. When even
> Grandma has a DVD player, that solidifies it's long life IMO. As proven
> by the fact that even now, VHS is STILL not entirely dead, 30 YEARS(!!)
> after it's introduction. When a format penetrates as many households as
> VHS did and now DVD has done as well, it proves very difficult for the
> technology to simply just die overnight.

Yeah, taint gunna happen.
Anonymous
April 29, 2005 5:49:21 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> In article <5C9be.736$Oz2.463@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
> "Steve K." <steve@nodamnspam.com> wrote:
>
>
>>It's amazing how these record companies are obsessed about
>>protecting these low quality files when their higher quality tracks on
>>CD's are wide open. Just craziness.
>
>
> Read "historical reasons". At the time the CD audio format was being
> developed, "digital" was a new and wonderful thing. It had to be a
> simple format because you couldn't build consumer appliances with
> full-fledged computers in them, to do decompression, DRM or anything
> like that. The idea of using CDs for computer data came later, which is
> why CD-ROMs hold less data than audio CDs (the normal audio CD error
> correction isn't quite good enough for computer data, so additional
> error correction needs to be included).
>
> For DVDs, it's quite the other way around. The DVD format is primarily a
> computer data format, and DVD-Video, DVD-Audio and all the other DVD
> applications simply build on this computer data format--put any such
> disc into your PC and you'll see a UDF filesystem with files on it.
>
> With Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, I assume they're doing the same thing as with
> DVD: the discs are designed first and foremost to hold a computer
> filesystem, and all applications are built out of files stored in the
> filesystem.


It's still craziness to run around trying to protect low quaity files
when higher quality ones are wide open.
Anonymous
April 30, 2005 7:35:01 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <umel61tf7me2nj8r6pi0hfe227066a03o6@4ax.com>,
RichA <none@none.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 09:09:38 -0700, <normanstrong@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>
>>"SlimJim" <someone@somewhere.org> wrote in message
>>news:1Ttae.12049$go4.294@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>>> I'll believe in the unity when I see results. Personally, I think this
>>> will be decided just like everything else--they both will release their
>>> product and only one will emerge the winner through stores and studios.
>>> Just like divix/dvd, HDcable&Directv/voom, vhs/beta, etc. And sadly, just
>>> like everything else, some will choose the right one others will have an
>>> expensive coaster or something for target practice. When they come out,
>>> choose wisely!
>>
>>Or don't choose at all. Wait until the market's direction is clear. It
>>isn't as if high def discs will allow you to see something you couldn't
>>otherwise see. It's just an improvement in resolution.
>>
>>My guess is that Both Sony and Toshiba are well aware that 2 incompatible
>>standards will prove to be a disaster. They're going to do everything in
>>their power to avoid making this mistake. Also, keep in mind that players
>>for Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will also have to play standard DVD and CD. The cost
>>of this backwards compatibility will be a major factor in the success (or
>>failure) of high def.
>>
>>Norm Strong

>Of course, it seems like going Blu-Ray will make this cost
>much higher than HD-DVD. Someone has to pay for an completely
>new disc manufacturing technology, HD is close to current DVD
>in configuration, while Blu-Ray is nothing like it.

And trying to be 'evolutionary' and pushing current technology to
it's limits, instead of being 'revolutionary' and developing new
methods even though they may have teething problems, is what killed
the American tape industry in audio/video/data.

They felt they could push ferric/ferrous technology with more
doping methods while the rest of the world went with metal particle
and metal plating. Those had some rough times as first, and then
they became dominant, and that mean the American manufacturers
bowed out of the field - if you remember such manufacturers
as Scotch and Ampex.

HD is close to current methods - just pushed harder. But it can
expand only so far then you are forced to change. Blu-Ray is far
more expandable. And there is technology similar to Blu-Ray
for the Xdcam. That is SERIOUS optical disc storage - targeted to
professional markets with 72Mbs and 144Mbs [using dual heads] write
media. That's more than any original High Definition recording
method in use now. 23GB in the current configuration.

That's pro stuff - but the technology is there and will be
manufactured - so it's not that great a leap to consumer. This of
course is the media that comes in cartridges - which you would
expect for field work in pro-video - and that's what was envisioned
for the Blu-Ray at first.

It's far too soon to tell what will succeed, but history seems to
show that revolutionary advances eventually win - though it may
take time - and when that happend the evolutionary technology
disappears.

Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 12:38:26 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage,alt.dvd.video,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <Bogce.1007$BE3.109@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
"Steve K." <steve@nodamnspam.com> wrote:

>It's still craziness to run around trying to protect low quaity files
>when higher quality ones are wide open.

They've tried to protect CD audio, by introducing all kinds of
copy-protection hacks. None have been very successful.

So it's not "craziness" for want of trying.
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 12:40:49 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <IFqpHL.1EC8@wjv.com>, bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote:

>It's far too soon to tell what will succeed, but history seems to
>show that revolutionary advances eventually win - though it may
>take time - and when that happend the evolutionary technology
>disappears.

That's a bit simplistic
<http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fluorescent+multilayer...;
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 12:40:50 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <ldo-71B59A.20404903052005@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>In article <IFqpHL.1EC8@wjv.com>, bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote:
>
>>It's far too soon to tell what will succeed, but history seems to
>>show that revolutionary advances eventually win - though it may
>>take time - and when that happend the evolutionary technology
>>disappears.

>That's a bit simplistic
><http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fluorescent+multilayer...;

I was not refering to just the disk technology but to all technology.
Manufacturers so often take the cheap and easy way while the
innovators are stumbling until they get a handle on the technology
and take over the field.

Bill

--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 12:15:35 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,rec.video.dvd.tech,alt.video.dvd (More info?)

In article <IFx1r6.17ow@wjv.com>, bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote:

>In article <ldo-71B59A.20404903052005@lust.ihug.co.nz>,
>Lawrence D¹Oliveiro <ldo@geek-central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
>>In article <IFqpHL.1EC8@wjv.com>, bv@wjv.com (Bill Vermillion) wrote:
>>
>>>It's far too soon to tell what will succeed, but history seems to
>>>show that revolutionary advances eventually win - though it may
>>>take time - and when that happend the evolutionary technology
>>>disappears.
>
>>That's a bit simplistic
>><http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=fluorescent+multilayer...;
>
>I was not refering to just the disk technology but to all technology.

Well, FMD is a counterexample, isn't it?
!