1080p Screams for MPEG4

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will
deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that the rush
to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake, something
that was evident to many in 2000.

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html

Bob Miller
29 answers Last reply
More about 1080p screams mpeg4
  1. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    > As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of MPEG2
    > compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will deny 1080P.
    > It will become more evident over the near term that the rush to lock in MPEG2
    > and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake, something that was evident to
    > many in 2000.
    > http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html

    Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that URL
    doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question of MPEG2
    vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.

    However, that article does have one interesting quote about the "failure"
    of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    from 1.6 million in March 2004

    So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year indicates
    failure.

    -- Mark --

    http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.
  2. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Is 1080p a real ATSC standard?

    Thanks,
    --Dan

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:4U7ae.10338$An2.156@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of MPEG2
    > compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will deny
    > 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that the rush to
    > lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake, something that
    > was evident to many in 2000.
    >
    > http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >
    > Bob Miller
  3. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    dg (dan_gus@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
    > Is 1080p a real ATSC standard?

    Yes. 1080/24p and 1080/30p are both part of the ATSC standard. Neither
    would have any bandwidth problems. As a matter of fact, both should
    require *less* bandwidth than 1080/60i.

    1080/60p is not part of the ATSC standard, nor will it fit (without
    significant artifacts) into a 19Mbps MPEG-2 stream. But, since the only
    source that would benefit from 1080/60p would be live sporting events, and
    no cameras capable of 1080/60p exist, it's not much of a loss.

    In addition, even though Bob talked about using MPEG-4 to deliver 1080/60p,
    it would do no good since current non-ATSC MPEG-4 receivers (Voom,
    primarily) cannot output 1080/60p, so the consumer would see no benefit.
    Until there is significant content available in 1080/60p, there will be
    no STBs that can output that resolution, and until there is equipment
    capable of receiving and outputting 1080/60p, broadcasters will not go
    to the expense of converting their equipment to use that format. It's
    a nice Catch-22.

    --
    Jeff Rife |
    | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/Dilbert/LostNetworkPassword.gif
  4. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    dg wrote:
    > Is 1080p a real ATSC standard?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > --Dan

    Yes, to a limited extent. The ATSC broadcast standards do provide for
    1080p at 24 and 30 frames per second which could used to broadcast 24
    fps movies. 60 fps would require too much bandwidth, so that is why it
    was not adopted for Over The Air broadcasting. The industry has settled
    on 720p60 or 1080i. There is no one broadcasting 1080p24 or 1080p30
    either OTA or via cable and no one is likely to any time soon.

    Ignore Bob Miller in all matters regarding HD, ATSC, and broadcast
    standards. Which is, as far I can tell, is the only topic of discussion
    in his entire life, so he is not someone you want to be stuck next to on
    a long plane flight. If you had to choose sitting next to the crying
    baby or Bob Miller, my recommendation would be to sit next to the baby.
    The baby will eventually stop.

    Alan F
  5. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Mark Crispin wrote:
    > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >
    >> As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >> MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >> will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >> the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >> mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >
    >
    > Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that URL
    > doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question of
    > MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >
    > However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    > "failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    > ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    > from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >
    > So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year indicates
    > failure.
    >
    > -- Mark --
    >
    > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    > Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    I think it is great that HDTV is doing so well. How many of those 4
    million are OTA? There are 109 million homes in the US. How many of
    those homes are OTA DTV?

    The resolution HD is great. You will be able to get more and more of it
    over cable, satellite and the Internet. How about OTA? Will it even be
    around the way it is now going? Unlikely.

    Bob Miller
  6. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Boobstr.... I thought we were finally rid of you, MPEG 2 vs MPEG 4 while
    interesting would only let trolls like you multicast all the more, get lost
    you looser! Your funny! NOT!

    Fear can hold you prisoner
    Hope can set you free

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:xndae.10531$An2.8957@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Mark Crispin wrote:
    >> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>
    >>> As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >>> MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will
    >>> deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that the rush
    >>> to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake, something
    >>> that was evident to many in 2000.
    >>> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >>
    >>
    >> Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that URL
    >> doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question of MPEG2
    >> vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >>
    >> However, that article does have one interesting quote about the "failure"
    >> of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    >> ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    >> from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >>
    >> So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year indicates
    >> failure.
    >>
    >> -- Mark --
    >>
    >> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    >> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    >> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
    >
    > I think it is great that HDTV is doing so well. How many of those 4
    > million are OTA? There are 109 million homes in the US. How many of those
    > homes are OTA DTV?
    >
    > The resolution HD is great. You will be able to get more and more of it
    > over cable, satellite and the Internet. How about OTA? Will it even be
    > around the way it is now going? Unlikely.
    >
    > Bob Miller
  7. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Mark Crispin wrote:
    > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >
    >> As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >> MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >> will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >> the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >> mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >
    >
    > Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that URL
    > doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question of
    > MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >
    > However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    > "failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    > ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    > from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >
    > So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year indicates
    > failure.
    >
    > -- Mark --
    >
    > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    > Si vis pacem, para bellum.


    The point of the article that I posted that I was trying to make is that
    while 1080P is going to become very popular we will not be able to
    receive it OTA because of the asinine limitations placed on OTA to
    cripple it such as MPEG2 and 8-VSB.

    With an advanced codec like MPEG4 1080P would be possible OTA in our six
    MHz channels. In fact so would 1080i something that MPEG2 can't handle
    very well.

    If you want the best HD you want 1080P. If you want 1080P OTA we should
    be changing our codec ASAP before we go any further down this dead end.

    Mark makes a good point, our transition is extremely anemic with only 4
    million at best HD homes. Now is the time to make changes before it is
    too late now while virtually no one has HD yet. The pain would be small
    while the benefits would be great.

    Bob Miller
  8. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in
    news:Pine.LNX.4.63.0504220844480.17694@shiva2.cac.washington.edu:

    > On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >> As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >> MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >> will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >> the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >> mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >
    > Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that
    > URL doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question
    > of MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >
    > However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    > "failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    > ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    > from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >
    > So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year
    > indicates failure.

    Gee, if it keeps failing at this rate, it will take until Christmas 2008 to
    get 100 million viewer market for the thing. What a dismal prospect! Not!


    --
    Dave Oldridge+
    ICQ 1800667

    A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
  9. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > dg (dan_gus@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
    >
    >>Is 1080p a real ATSC standard?
    >
    >
    > Yes. 1080/24p and 1080/30p are both part of the ATSC standard. Neither would have any bandwidth problems. As a matter of fact, both should
    > require *less* bandwidth than 1080/60i.
    >
    > 1080/60p is not part of the ATSC standard, nor will it fit (without significant artifacts) into a 19Mbps MPEG-2 stream. But, since the only
    > source that would benefit from 1080/60p would be live sporting events, and no cameras capable of 1080/60p exist, it's not much of a loss.

    "That's why when Sony developed its 1080/60P multi-format camera
    technology, Game Creek eagerly took delivery of 39 HDC-1500 multi-format
    cameras..."
    http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5826
    >
    > In addition, even though Bob talked about using MPEG-4 to deliver 1080/60p, it would do no good since current non-ATSC MPEG-4 receivers (Voom,
    > primarily) cannot output 1080/60p, so the consumer would see no benefit.

    > Until there is significant content available in 1080/60p, there will be no STBs that can output that resolution, and until there is equipment
    > capable of receiving and outputting 1080/60p, broadcasters will not go to the expense of converting their equipment to use that format. It's
    > a nice Catch-22.
    >

    All change involves a "Catch-22". This for example has been a problem
    for HDTV and DTV all along. Doesn't mean it can't happen. It will happen
    if there is interest.

    You could have and many did use your exact arguments for never starting
    the DTV transition, no content, no receivers no nothing so it would be
    impossible right?

    The opportunity is now to allow OTA to go MPEG4. The digital transition
    is stagnant. We are at a turning point where the government is about to
    do something to try to get off dead center. One way to go is the way we
    are going, "stay the course", another is to close down free OTA
    altogether and auction off all the spectrum, it may be a little early
    for that, a few more years of stagnation and we will get that however.

    A third way would be to fix the transition by taking advantage of the
    stagnation and switch to MPEG4 which would obselete all current
    receivers, not many out there, and that would allow for the
    re-examination of everything including modulation. We then might be able
    to bypass France for instance and have a truly modern OTA broadcasting
    system.

    This would then allow for 1080P broadcasting instead of the horrible
    compromise which is 1080i.

    Bob Miller
  10. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Dave Oldridge wrote:
    > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in
    > news:Pine.LNX.4.63.0504220844480.17694@shiva2.cac.washington.edu:
    >
    >
    >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>
    >>>As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >>>MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >>>will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >>>the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >>>mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >>>http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >>
    >>Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that
    >>URL doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question
    >>of MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >>
    >>However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    >>"failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    >> ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    >> from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >>
    >>So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year
    >>indicates failure.
    >
    >
    > Gee, if it keeps failing at this rate, it will take until Christmas 2008 to
    > get 100 million viewer market for the thing. What a dismal prospect! Not!
    >
    >
    I think he was talking about HDTV sets in peoples homes which could be
    attached to cable or satellite or to just good old NTSC. He would have
    to say how many were attached to what. How many to OTA for instance. Not
    many.

    Again I was talking about the failure of OTA broadcasting in the digital
    transition. HD the resolution can do well without OTA. It could do a lot
    better with OTA. But OTA is not helping HD at all. It is hurting it.

    Bob Miller
  11. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Dave Oldridge wrote:
    > Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in
    > news:Pine.LNX.4.63.0504220844480.17694@shiva2.cac.washington.edu:
    >
    >
    >>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>
    >>>As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >>>MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >>>will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >>>the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >>>mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >>>http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >>
    >>Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that
    >>URL doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question
    >>of MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >>
    >>However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    >>"failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    >> ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    >> from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >>
    >>So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year
    >>indicates failure.
    >
    >
    > Gee, if it keeps failing at this rate, it will take until Christmas 2008 to
    > get 100 million viewer market for the thing. What a dismal prospect! Not!
    >
    >
    Depends on how you count. If they keep selling 2.4 million HD sets like
    they did in the last year till 2008 then we would have 11.2 million by
    then not 100 million. Of course if you want to use compounding then it
    could be 100 million. But then since it was 20 degrees cooler today in
    New York then yesterday I can predict that we will reach absolute zero
    sometime early next week if we compound the falling temperature rate.

    The funny thing is that if we had been selling COFDM receivers in the US
    at the same rate as they are currently selling in the UK we would reach
    100 million COFDM DTV receivers sold in the US sometime this year with
    NO compounding.

    OTA TV in the US is failing and all of its spectrum would have been on
    the auction block by now if it wasn't for the miracle of must carry. The
    veils are lifting right now in Congress. They are really paying
    attention for the first time to the DTV transition because it keeps
    coming back to bother them. They really really want to see this problem
    go away.

    Bob Miller
  12. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Jeff Rife wrote:
    > dg (dan_gus@hotmail.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
    >
    >>Is 1080p a real ATSC standard?
    >
    >
    > Yes. 1080/24p and 1080/30p are both part of the ATSC standard. Neither
    > would have any bandwidth problems. As a matter of fact, both should
    > require *less* bandwidth than 1080/60i.
    >
    > 1080/60p is not part of the ATSC standard, nor will it fit (without
    > significant artifacts) into a 19Mbps MPEG-2 stream. But, since the only
    > source that would benefit from 1080/60p would be live sporting events, and
    > no cameras capable of 1080/60p exist, it's not much of a loss.
    >
    Another 1080/60P camera.

    http://millimeter.com/e-newsletters/hd_focus_03082005/

    "Ikegami's new Editcam HD camcorder is one of several new Ikegami
    cameras at NAB 2005 that employ advanced CMOS (Complementary Metal Oxide
    Semiconductor) image sensors. CMOS technology offers several advantages,
    including smaller camera size, decreased power consumption, and
    multiformat and high-speed capabilities. All of these features are
    present in Ikegami's new HDL-40HS High-Speed HD Box Camera, which can
    produce images at 1080/60p and 720/120p for slow-motion applications in
    conjunction with an EVS server."

    Bob Miller
  13. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Really! Bob is a lot like herpes. Just when you think he is gone, he pops up
    again in all of his irritating and annoying splendor......


    "Mike Parisey" <mparisey@ev1.net> wrote in message
    news:116itj2egoq24ae@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    > Boobstr.... I thought we were finally rid of you, MPEG 2 vs MPEG 4 while
    > interesting would only let trolls like you multicast all the more, get
    > lost you looser! Your funny! NOT!
    >
    > Fear can hold you prisoner
    > Hope can set you free
    >
    > "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:xndae.10531$An2.8957@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >> Mark Crispin wrote:
    >>> On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >>>> MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will
    >>>> deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that the
    >>>> rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake,
    >>>> something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >>>> http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that URL
    >>> doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question of
    >>> MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >>>
    >>> However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    >>> "failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    >>> ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    >>> from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >>>
    >>> So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year indicates
    >>> failure.
    >>>
    >>> -- Mark --
    >>>
    >>> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    >>> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    >>> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
    >>
    >> I think it is great that HDTV is doing so well. How many of those 4
    >> million are OTA? There are 109 million homes in the US. How many of those
    >> homes are OTA DTV?
    >>
    >> The resolution HD is great. You will be able to get more and more of it
    >> over cable, satellite and the Internet. How about OTA? Will it even be
    >> around the way it is now going? Unlikely.
    >>
    >> Bob Miller
    >
    >
  14. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    I completely disagree. Moving forward with 1080i/720p standards over
    8-VSB was critical in establishing an infrastructure for HDTV in the
    US, it's taken years to get things to the state they are today. Today
    almost all of the US prime time programming is available in High
    Definition. The availability of this content has driven High Definition
    and HD Ready television sales. It put the wheels in motion to bring
    about the HD revolution; which I would define as the general public
    acceptance and embrace of High Definition and eventually the
    replacement of SD with HD as common place. We're in the middle of that
    now.

    To no ones big suprise (except perhaps Bob Millers) The means by which
    consumers are watching television haven't changed, cable and satellite
    are still as viable as ever and HD is on it's first successful adoption
    (US).

    If you look at other countries and specifcly High Definition, there is
    no one that comes close and that's very sad because Japan has had HD
    longer than we have. The difference is in Japan HD television is still
    a luxury item, in the US it's becoming common place.
  15. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    "Alan Figgatt" <afiggatt@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:ebednYiaZYLI1_TfRVn-rQ@comcast.com...
    > in his entire life, so he is not someone you want to be stuck next to on
    > a long plane flight. If you had to choose sitting next to the crying

    Oh my god, can you imagine if you were seated next to him (unknowingly) and
    you mentioned how you just got a new HDTV and how great the OTA broadcast
    is? Ha Ha!

    --Dan
  16. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    > Sad? Japan?
    > They have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in Japan in just the
    > last year.

    But most of those sets aren't viewing terrestrial digital HD because
    there's no signal to receive! Homes with HDTV in Japan are mostly
    satellite or cable.

    However, it makes no sense to buy an HDTV without an OTA tuner, even if
    your area isn't served yet. The only reason HDTVs without tuners were
    sold in the US is because Psycho Bob and his friends at Sinclair tried to
    stop the DTV transition with it didn't go his way.

    But Psycho Bob Miller won't tell you that.

    Psycho Bob lies, either directly or by misleadingly presenting statistics.

    Remember, whatever Psycho Bob Miller says, the exact opposite is true!

    -- Mark --

    http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.
  17. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com wrote:
    > I completely disagree. Moving forward with 1080i/720p standards over
    > 8-VSB was critical in establishing an infrastructure for HDTV in the
    > US, it's taken years to get things to the state they are today. Today
    > almost all of the US prime time programming is available in High
    > Definition. The availability of this content has driven High Definition
    > and HD Ready television sales. It put the wheels in motion to bring
    > about the HD revolution; which I would define as the general public
    > acceptance and embrace of High Definition and eventually the
    > replacement of SD with HD as common place. We're in the middle of that
    > now.
    >
    > To no ones big suprise (except perhaps Bob Millers) The means by which
    > consumers are watching television haven't changed, cable and satellite
    > are still as viable as ever and HD is on it's first successful adoption
    > (US).
    >
    > If you look at other countries and specifcly High Definition, there is
    > no one that comes close and that's very sad because Japan has had HD
    > longer than we have. The difference is in Japan HD television is still
    > a luxury item, in the US it's becoming common place.
    >
    Sad? Japan?

    They have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in Japan in
    just the last year. We have in the US seen the sale of a "suspect" 4
    million HD sets in the last 8 years.

    If you look at it in a percentage of homes basis Japan, after only one
    year of OTA terrestrial HD broadcasting in only a couple of cities has
    passed the US by.

    3.2 million in a nation of 46 million households, Japan, for a uptake of
    6.95% in one year.

    4 million in the US a nation of 109 million households for and uptake of
    3.7% in 8 years.

    Japan did 6.95% of households in one year while the US did .46% per year
    for the last 8 years. That is less than 1/2 of ONE% per year.

    http://www.dibeg.org/news/news-3/news-e3.htm

    Review of January 2005 domestic shipments of digital terrestrial
    broadcast receivers

    "A total of 182,000 digital terrestrial broadcast receivers (including
    set top boxes - STBs for cable TV) were shipped in January, bringing
    cumulative sales to 3,162,000 units."

    "For January, digital terrestrial TVs accounted for 18.4% of all color
    TV shipments, a decline of 8.2 percent from December 2004. ( but an
    increased by 119.9% compared to the same month last year Classified
    according to display type, digital terrestrial CRT sets accounted for
    5.4% of CRT sets, while digital terrestrial TVs accounted for 95.2% of
    PDP sets and 38.6% of LCD sets."

    Australia has sold 640,000 receivers in a nation of 7 million homes (a
    home in OZ has an average of 2.5 people) for a 9.1% penetration after
    only two 1/2 years.

    And in both OZ and Japan these are all OTA numbers. I am interested in
    saving OTA in the US so that is what is being compared. Anyone know how
    many of the US 4 million HD sets are OTA? Cable and satellite??? DVD????

    Yes what percentage of US HDTV set owners would tell you that they are
    watching HD when they are watching 480i DVD's? When their HD set is not
    even connected to any HD service? Give me that number and don't bother
    calling the CEA to find out they could care less they just want to sell
    HD set anyway they can.

    The US is falling behind in HD at an accelerating rate which is amazing
    since we have by far the most coverage and content.

    Could it be that they US picked the wrong modulation?

    Watch France, they picked both a right modulation and compression, COFDM
    and MPEG4 for HD. I predict that when they start HD this year they will
    also very quickly pass the US in the percentage of homes with HD.

    Bob Miller
  18. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Bob Miller (robmx@earthlink.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
    > Another 1080/60P camera.

    Still can't read, huh?

    > http://millimeter.com/e-newsletters/hd_focus_03082005/
    >
    > All of these features are
    > present in Ikegami's new HDL-40HS High-Speed HD Box Camera, which can
    > produce images at 1080/60p and 720/120p for slow-motion applications in
    > conjunction with an EVS server."

    Note that this camera only produces 1080/60p for a special slow-motion
    setup, which would then be played back at 1080/30p. So, although the
    camera can do the job, the output from the EVS server is at best 1080/30p
    (or 1080/60i).

    --
    Jeff Rife | "In those days Mars was a dreary uninhabitable
    | wasteland much like Utah, but unlike Utah, Mars
    | was eventually made livable."
    | -- Professor Farnsworth, "Futurama"
  19. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Mark Crispin wrote:
    > On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >
    >> Sad? Japan?
    >> They have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in Japan in
    >> just the last year.
    >
    >
    > But most of those sets aren't viewing terrestrial digital HD because there's no signal to receive! Homes with HDTV in Japan are mostly
    > satellite or cable.
    >
    > However, it makes no sense to buy an HDTV without an OTA tuner, even if your area isn't served yet. The only reason HDTVs without tuners were
    > sold in the US is because Psycho Bob and his friends at Sinclair tried to stop the DTV transition with it didn't go his way.
    >

    In Japan with little OTA HD broadcasting Mark admits a lot of HDTV sets
    are being sold. That could be because there may be more broadcasting
    than Mark admits of knows of and it could be because the players in the
    OTA HDTV business in Japan are more confident of their system. The
    manufacturers retailers and therefore their customers all are on board,
    confident and eager to buy into their OTA COFDM ISDB-T system. Why could
    that be even in the face of little broadcasting as Mark suggest?

    Well if your are a retailer selling big bulky integrated HDTV sets you
    will not be aggressive in selling them if you find a lot of them coming
    back because of problems. If the OTA receiver built in is a problem it
    would be better to push the HD set without the receiver and sell the
    receiver separately. When it comes back because of problems it is a much
    smaller part of the sale, weighs less and is just a smaller problem.

    In the US a lot of receivers come back and become open box specials.
    This has kept receivers out of integrated sets and caused the FCC to
    mandate what the industry, the retailers abhor. So in the US with almost
    universal DTV coverage, lots of HD content, a rich country eager
    normally to be the firstest with the mostest our problematic modulation
    has stymied our DTV transition.

    While in Japan with little coverage and less content people are being
    sold by eager retailers very expensive equipment that can't even receive
    HD yet while in the US people are taking home HD sets with no receiver
    in them to watch DVD's while there is a lot of free OTA being broadcast.
    And in many cases we find that the salespersons didn't even inform them
    of the HD options.

    And it is all because Bob Miller is posting on a newsgroup in the US and
    not Japan.

    Good logic!!!

    If the US with all its content and universal coverage had been selling
    8-VSB integrated HDTV sets at the same, non accelerated rate, as has
    taken place in Japan this last year, the US would have seen the sale of
    90 million INTEGRATED HDTV SETS over the last five years. That is the US
    is six times as large as Japan. 46 million households compared to 290
    million households. Five years of 3 million sales per year equals 15
    million multiplied by 6 times as many households equals 90 million.

    But we should have expected an acceleration as the first years sale so 3
    million happy households induced more than 3 million the second year.
    The US with only a minor acceleration over the Japan rate would have
    seen more than 109 million HDTV integrated DTV sets sold in the last
    five years if we had the same sales rate as Japan with even half of the
    accelerated sales that Japan will see this year over last.

    THE US TRANSITION WOULD ALREADY BE OVER WITH!!! Every house would
    already have an integrated HDTV set.

    But Bob Miller all by himself thwarted this entire industry.

    Hint, if this entire industry believes this they can buy me off a lot
    cheaper than Congress and the FCC. A few million my way and they can be
    selling billions and billions of 8-VSB integrated sets tomorrow.

    And I will lead the band right down main street beating the drum for 8-VSB.

    Bob Miller


    > But Psycho Bob Miller won't tell you that.
    >
    > Psycho Bob lies, either directly or by misleadingly presenting statistics.
    >
    > Remember, whatever Psycho Bob Miller says, the exact opposite is true!
    >
    > -- Mark --
    >
    > http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    > Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    > Si vis pacem, para bellum.
  20. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Bob,

    With all due respect, this is just another example of how you divert
    the subject of a thread to push your point. Your comment was

    "They (Japan) have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in
    Japan in
    just the last year. We have in the US seen the sale of a "suspect" 4
    million HD sets in the last 8 years....."

    Your talking out "integrated" HD sets with tuners, and I'm telling you,
    all the evidence is telling you that US consumers aren't buying
    "integrated" HD sets primarly because US consumers have subscription
    based services and since they don't intend to get rid of those services
    they opt not to spend the extra $200-$300 on an "integrated" set.

    You refuse to factor in HD Ready sets as "HD" when in fact most US
    consumers that watch HD programming do so on non-integrated HD Ready
    televisions. You also dodge the subject of avaiable HD content which I
    feel is the most significant indicator of a successful adoption of High
    Definition.
  21. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:QKfae.10567$An2.5203@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Dave Oldridge wrote:
    >> Mark Crispin <mrc@CAC.Washington.EDU> wrote in
    >> news:Pine.LNX.4.63.0504220844480.17694@shiva2.cac.washington.edu:
    >>>On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of
    >>>>MPEG2 compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting
    >>>>will deny 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that
    >>>>the rush to lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a
    >>>>mistake, something that was evident to many in 2000.
    >>>>http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >>>Of course, as usual with Psycho Bob postings, the article from that
    >>>URL doesn't support his contention in anyway. In fact, the question
    >>>of MPEG2 vs. MPEG4 isn't mentioned at all.
    >>>However, that article does have one interesting quote about the
    >>>"failure" of HDTV in the US that Psycho Bob keeps bleating about:
    >>> ... there are currently 4 million HDTV households in the US, up
    >>> from 1.6 million in March 2004
    >>>So, a 150% increase (2.5 times) in HDTV deployment in one year
    >>>indicates failure.
    >> Gee, if it keeps failing at this rate, it will take until Christmas 2008
    >> to get 100 million viewer market for the thing. What a dismal prospect!
    >> Not!
    > Depends on how you count. If they keep selling 2.4 million HD sets like
    > they did in the last year till 2008 then we would have 11.2 million by
    > then not 100 million. Of course if you want to use compounding then it
    > could be 100 million. But then since it was 20 degrees cooler today in New
    > York then yesterday I can predict that we will reach absolute zero
    > sometime early next week if we compound the falling temperature rate.
    >
    > The funny thing is that if we had been selling COFDM receivers in the US
    > at the same rate as they are currently selling in the UK we would reach
    > 100 million COFDM DTV receivers sold in the US sometime this year with NO
    > compounding.
    > OTA TV in the US is failing and all of its spectrum would have been on the
    > auction block by now if it wasn't for the miracle of must carry. The veils
    > are lifting right now in Congress. They are really paying attention for
    > the first time to the DTV transition because it keeps coming back to
    > bother them. They really really want to see this problem go away.
    >
    > Bob Miller

    I'm just wondering, weren't all of these lies already
    challenged and disproved here just a few months ago?

    Or are these posting newer examples of bob's lies?
  22. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    "... compared to 290 million households" 290 million households??? How
    about 290 million people. I don't think that every man, woman, or child in
    this country has his or her own house, do you?


    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:j1Hae.1$Oz2.0@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Mark Crispin wrote:
    >> On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>
    >>> Sad? Japan?
    >>> They have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in Japan in
    >>> just the last year.
    >>
    >>
    >> But most of those sets aren't viewing terrestrial digital HD because
    >> there's no signal to receive! Homes with HDTV in Japan are mostly
    >> satellite or cable.
    >>
    >> However, it makes no sense to buy an HDTV without an OTA tuner, even if
    >> your area isn't served yet. The only reason HDTVs without tuners were
    >> sold in the US is because Psycho Bob and his friends at Sinclair tried to
    >> stop the DTV transition with it didn't go his way.
    >>
    >
    > In Japan with little OTA HD broadcasting Mark admits a lot of HDTV sets
    > are being sold. That could be because there may be more broadcasting than
    > Mark admits of knows of and it could be because the players in the OTA
    > HDTV business in Japan are more confident of their system. The
    > manufacturers retailers and therefore their customers all are on board,
    > confident and eager to buy into their OTA COFDM ISDB-T system. Why could
    > that be even in the face of little broadcasting as Mark suggest?
    >
    > Well if your are a retailer selling big bulky integrated HDTV sets you
    > will not be aggressive in selling them if you find a lot of them coming
    > back because of problems. If the OTA receiver built in is a problem it
    > would be better to push the HD set without the receiver and sell the
    > receiver separately. When it comes back because of problems it is a much
    > smaller part of the sale, weighs less and is just a smaller problem.
    >
    > In the US a lot of receivers come back and become open box specials. This
    > has kept receivers out of integrated sets and caused the FCC to mandate
    > what the industry, the retailers abhor. So in the US with almost universal
    > DTV coverage, lots of HD content, a rich country eager normally to be the
    > firstest with the mostest our problematic modulation has stymied our DTV
    > transition.
    >
    > While in Japan with little coverage and less content people are being sold
    > by eager retailers very expensive equipment that can't even receive HD yet
    > while in the US people are taking home HD sets with no receiver in them to
    > watch DVD's while there is a lot of free OTA being broadcast. And in many
    > cases we find that the salespersons didn't even inform them of the HD
    > options.
    >
    > And it is all because Bob Miller is posting on a newsgroup in the US and
    > not Japan.
    >
    > Good logic!!!
    >
    > If the US with all its content and universal coverage had been selling
    > 8-VSB integrated HDTV sets at the same, non accelerated rate, as has taken
    > place in Japan this last year, the US would have seen the sale of 90
    > million INTEGRATED HDTV SETS over the last five years. That is the US is
    > six times as large as Japan. 46 million households compared to 290 million
    > households. Five years of 3 million sales per year equals 15 million
    > multiplied by 6 times as many households equals 90 million.
    >
    > But we should have expected an acceleration as the first years sale so 3
    > million happy households induced more than 3 million the second year. The
    > US with only a minor acceleration over the Japan rate would have seen more
    > than 109 million HDTV integrated DTV sets sold in the last five years if
    > we had the same sales rate as Japan with even half of the accelerated
    > sales that Japan will see this year over last.
    >
    > THE US TRANSITION WOULD ALREADY BE OVER WITH!!! Every house would already
    > have an integrated HDTV set.
    >
    > But Bob Miller all by himself thwarted this entire industry.
    >
    > Hint, if this entire industry believes this they can buy me off a lot
    > cheaper than Congress and the FCC. A few million my way and they can be
    > selling billions and billions of 8-VSB integrated sets tomorrow.
    >
    > And I will lead the band right down main street beating the drum for
    > 8-VSB.
    >
    > Bob Miller
    >
    >
    >> But Psycho Bob Miller won't tell you that.
    >>
    >> Psycho Bob lies, either directly or by misleadingly presenting
    >> statistics.
    >>
    >> Remember, whatever Psycho Bob Miller says, the exact opposite is true!
    >>
    >> -- Mark --
    >>
    >> http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    >> Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    >> Si vis pacem, para bellum.
  23. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Phil Ross wrote:
    > "... compared to 290 million households" 290 million households??? How
    > about 290 million people. I don't think that every man, woman, or child in
    > this country has his or her own house, do you?
    >
    >
    109 million households not 290, sorry.
    >
    > "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:j1Hae.1$Oz2.0@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >
    >>Mark Crispin wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 23 Apr 2005, Bob Miller wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Sad? Japan?
    >>>>They have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in Japan in
    >>>>just the last year.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>But most of those sets aren't viewing terrestrial digital HD because
    >>>there's no signal to receive! Homes with HDTV in Japan are mostly
    >>>satellite or cable.
    >>>
    >>>However, it makes no sense to buy an HDTV without an OTA tuner, even if
    >>>your area isn't served yet. The only reason HDTVs without tuners were
    >>>sold in the US is because Psycho Bob and his friends at Sinclair tried to
    >>>stop the DTV transition with it didn't go his way.
    >>>
    >>
    >>In Japan with little OTA HD broadcasting Mark admits a lot of HDTV sets
    >>are being sold. That could be because there may be more broadcasting than
    >>Mark admits of knows of and it could be because the players in the OTA
    >>HDTV business in Japan are more confident of their system. The
    >>manufacturers retailers and therefore their customers all are on board,
    >>confident and eager to buy into their OTA COFDM ISDB-T system. Why could
    >>that be even in the face of little broadcasting as Mark suggest?
    >>
    >>Well if your are a retailer selling big bulky integrated HDTV sets you
    >>will not be aggressive in selling them if you find a lot of them coming
    >>back because of problems. If the OTA receiver built in is a problem it
    >>would be better to push the HD set without the receiver and sell the
    >>receiver separately. When it comes back because of problems it is a much
    >>smaller part of the sale, weighs less and is just a smaller problem.
    >>
    >>In the US a lot of receivers come back and become open box specials. This
    >>has kept receivers out of integrated sets and caused the FCC to mandate
    >>what the industry, the retailers abhor. So in the US with almost universal
    >>DTV coverage, lots of HD content, a rich country eager normally to be the
    >>firstest with the mostest our problematic modulation has stymied our DTV
    >>transition.
    >>
    >>While in Japan with little coverage and less content people are being sold
    >>by eager retailers very expensive equipment that can't even receive HD yet
    >>while in the US people are taking home HD sets with no receiver in them to
    >>watch DVD's while there is a lot of free OTA being broadcast. And in many
    >>cases we find that the salespersons didn't even inform them of the HD
    >>options.
    >>
    >>And it is all because Bob Miller is posting on a newsgroup in the US and
    >>not Japan.
    >>
    >>Good logic!!!
    >>
    >>If the US with all its content and universal coverage had been selling
    >>8-VSB integrated HDTV sets at the same, non accelerated rate, as has taken
    >>place in Japan this last year, the US would have seen the sale of 90
    >>million INTEGRATED HDTV SETS over the last five years. That is the US is
    >>six times as large as Japan. 46 million households compared to 290 million
    >>households. Five years of 3 million sales per year equals 15 million
    >>multiplied by 6 times as many households equals 90 million.
    >>
    >>But we should have expected an acceleration as the first years sale so 3
    >>million happy households induced more than 3 million the second year. The
    >>US with only a minor acceleration over the Japan rate would have seen more
    >>than 109 million HDTV integrated DTV sets sold in the last five years if
    >>we had the same sales rate as Japan with even half of the accelerated
    >>sales that Japan will see this year over last.
    >>
    >>THE US TRANSITION WOULD ALREADY BE OVER WITH!!! Every house would already
    >>have an integrated HDTV set.
    >>
    >>But Bob Miller all by himself thwarted this entire industry.
    >>
    >>Hint, if this entire industry believes this they can buy me off a lot
    >>cheaper than Congress and the FCC. A few million my way and they can be
    >>selling billions and billions of 8-VSB integrated sets tomorrow.
    >>
    >>And I will lead the band right down main street beating the drum for
    >>8-VSB.
    >>
    >>Bob Miller
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>>But Psycho Bob Miller won't tell you that.
    >>>
    >>>Psycho Bob lies, either directly or by misleadingly presenting
    >>>statistics.
    >>>
    >>>Remember, whatever Psycho Bob Miller says, the exact opposite is true!
    >>>
    >>>-- Mark --
    >>>
    >>>http://staff.washington.edu/mrc
    >>>Science does not emerge from voting, party politics, or public debate.
    >>>Si vis pacem, para bellum.
    >
    >
    >
  24. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    Jeremy.Deats@gmail.com wrote:
    > Bob,
    >
    > With all due respect, this is just another example of how you divert
    > the subject of a thread to push your point. Your comment was
    >
    > "They (Japan) have sold 3.2 million mostly integrated HD OTA sets in
    > Japan in
    > just the last year. We have in the US seen the sale of a "suspect" 4
    > million HD sets in the last 8 years....."
    >
    > Your talking out "integrated" HD sets with tuners, and I'm telling you,
    > all the evidence is telling you that US consumers aren't buying
    > "integrated" HD sets primarly because US consumers have subscription
    > based services and since they don't intend to get rid of those services
    > they opt not to spend the extra $200-$300 on an "integrated" set.
    >
    > You refuse to factor in HD Ready sets as "HD" when in fact most US
    > consumers that watch HD programming do so on non-integrated HD Ready
    > televisions. You also dodge the subject of avaiable HD content which I
    > feel is the most significant indicator of a successful adoption of High
    > Definition.
    >

    I am talking about a successful OTA transition to digital. The key is to
    have a successful transition, HD is one resolution that digital TV can
    address.

    The four million US HD units include all 8-VSB receivers of any kind I
    believe. Do you have different numbers? It seems to be hard to get real
    numbers.

    Bob Miller
  25. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:Dudae.12086$lP1.9217@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > The point of the article that I posted that I was trying to make is that
    > while 1080P is going to become very popular we will not be able to receive
    > it OTA because of the asinine limitations placed on OTA to cripple it such
    > as MPEG2 and 8-VSB.
    >
    > With an advanced codec like MPEG4 1080P would be possible OTA in our six
    > MHz channels. In fact so would 1080i something that MPEG2 can't handle
    > very well.

    Standards are in place, there is always a newer better model of something
    coming out next week, there is no use in crying over spilled milk. Lets
    just say for fun that the ATSC broadcast standards were changed to allow
    MPEG4. 1 year passes and MPEG5 comes out, then what? Are you going to
    complain about how old our system is then and insist on MPEG5? There will
    ALWAYS be something better on the horizon, I think we just need to ride this
    thing out for now, whatever the standards are. Can you imagine the costs if
    the standards here in the US were changed, *right now*?

    --Dan
  26. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    dg wrote:
    > "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:Dudae.12086$lP1.9217@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >
    >>The point of the article that I posted that I was trying to make is that
    >>while 1080P is going to become very popular we will not be able to receive
    >>it OTA because of the asinine limitations placed on OTA to cripple it such
    >>as MPEG2 and 8-VSB.
    >>
    >>With an advanced codec like MPEG4 1080P would be possible OTA in our six
    >>MHz channels. In fact so would 1080i something that MPEG2 can't handle
    >>very well.
    >
    >
    > Standards are in place, there is always a newer better model of something
    > coming out next week, there is no use in crying over spilled milk. Lets
    > just say for fun that the ATSC broadcast standards were changed to allow
    > MPEG4. 1 year passes and MPEG5 comes out, then what? Are you going to
    > complain about how old our system is then and insist on MPEG5? There will
    > ALWAYS be something better on the horizon, I think we just need to ride this
    > thing out for now, whatever the standards are. Can you imagine the costs if
    > the standards here in the US were changed, *right now*?
    >
    > --Dan
    >
    >
    >
    >
    Costs would not be that high and in comparison to the benefits would be
    insignificant.

    We should have a system for OTA that can change just like cable and
    satellite can change. Simple as that. If that were the "standard" then
    equipment for sale to consumers would or could include the ability to be
    upgraded to newer codecs as they came along.

    The consumer could decide if they want to buy a receiver that could be
    upgraded or not. Take the chance that is. This was possible in 2000. We
    could have had receivers built then that would be upgradeble to MPEG4
    and presumably MPEG5. For example if COFDM had been allowed in 2000 we
    were proposing that an advanced codec like VP4, now VP6 be allowed also
    and that receivers use a chip like the Equator so that other codecs
    could automatically be handled by the receiver like VP6 or MPEG4.

    Didn't happen because the whole rush to set standards was all about JUST
    THE OPPOSITE. CEMENTING IN STANDARDS that were getting long in the tooth
    before that became apparent and keeping the royalties rolling in for
    special interest.

    Can you imagine the cost to consumers over the next X number of years in
    lost opportunities, expensive receivers, antennas and their
    installation, no access to OTA low cost cable killer options, no
    reception of DTV on their OTA spectrum in many cases and no easy
    reception mobile or portable? Those cost will exceed any cost of
    switching by a thousand times at least.

    Just the cost of having only HD 1080i program that barly fits into the
    channels with the resulting pixelation instead of two that fit very
    nicely with no pixelation or 16 SD programs in one 6 MHz channels
    instead of 5 SD programs alone increases the value to the consumer by
    double and that is for every hour of every day for who knows how many
    years. You could also fit a 1080/60P HD program into that 6 MHz channel.

    It is pretty easy to calculate what it would take to change. X number of
    receivers replaced by same number of far less expensive receivers. x
    number of modulators replaced by same number of modulators at somewhat
    lower cost. Not so easy to calculate the incredible cost of what will
    never be. What for instance is the cost for what has NOT happened over
    the last five years? With COFDM we would have seen 100,000,000 receivers
    eagerly bought or given away in a frenzied and vibrant free market like
    what is happening in the UK instead of the MANDATED stagnation we have
    in the OTA broadcasting business in the US transition.

    Bob Miller
  27. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:z6fbe.13439$lP1.204@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > Just the cost of having only HD 1080i program that barly fits into the
    > channels with the resulting pixelation instead of two that fit very
    > nicely with no pixelation or 16 SD programs in one 6 MHz channels
    > instead of 5 SD programs alone increases the value to the consumer by

    Whoa, slow the cable truck down, are you really claiming that mpeg4 allows
    over 3 times as many channels as the current scheme? I remember when Voom
    was allegedly working on mpeg4 people were talking 20% more efficient
    compression. Going from 5 channels to 16 in a 6MHz channel is quite a
    claim.

    --Dan
  28. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    dg wrote:
    > "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    > news:z6fbe.13439$lP1.204@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >
    >>Just the cost of having only HD 1080i program that barly fits into the
    >>channels with the resulting pixelation instead of two that fit very
    >>nicely with no pixelation or 16 SD programs in one 6 MHz channels
    >>instead of 5 SD programs alone increases the value to the consumer by
    >
    >
    > Whoa, slow the cable truck down, are you really claiming that mpeg4 allows
    > over 3 times as many channels as the current scheme? I remember when Voom
    > was allegedly working on mpeg4 people were talking 20% more efficient
    > compression. Going from 5 channels to 16 in a 6MHz channel is quite a
    > claim.
    >
    > --Dan
    >
    >
    Those who make the compressors have told me that the vast majority of
    MPEG2 equipment in the field today can do a decent 4-5 SD programs, that
    with the best MPEG2 equipment and with MPEG2 not expected to improve
    much more, that 8 programs could be squeezed in. Few are using that
    latest gen MPEG2 equipment.

    MPEG4 comes out doing 10 SD programs per 6 MHz channel with a capability
    to do 16 in a few years as it starts to hit its potential. So you pick
    your numbers or tell me different.

    If you think that is a lot there is company that claims to be five times
    better than MPEG4 or 50 SD channels per 6 MHz channel and they say they
    are just starting to scratch the surface. We will be testing that codec
    soon.

    Bob Miller
  29. Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv,alt.video.digital-tv (More info?)

    You are annoying as hell. Go shove your 8VSB somewhere, but please spare
    this board. Get a life, for example. You know, that's when you are NOT on
    the computer with your stupid 8VSB babbling.

    "Bob Miller" <robmx@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:4U7ae.10338$An2.156@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > As volume 1080P capable DTV sets come to market the deficiencies of MPEG2
    > compression which already bit starves 1080i OTA broadcasting will deny
    > 1080P. It will become more evident over the near term that the rush to
    > lock in MPEG2 and 8-VSB for OTA broadcasting was a mistake, something that
    > was evident to many in 2000.
    >
    > http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/132877.html
    >
    > Bob Miller
Ask a new question

Read More

HDTV Digital TV Home Theatre