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Ok so I am a noob at wc

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January 24, 2008 12:55:48 PM

I have been building systems for 13 years. I have been overclocking for 10. I have only used air cooling. I have lapped processors, heatsinks etc., I am ready to make the leap to wc. I have done some research and it all points to some like this some like that. I am used to that. I am looking for a wc system for the following:

First wc system
q6600
gigabyte ga-p35-dsr3
case is thermaltake 6000

Second wc system
e8400
abit p35-e
8800 gts.

or I will get one for each. I was looking at kits (simply because you can always customize later and from what I have been reading they are not that "bad") I was looking at the following kits. xpsc water cooling kit (not sure which one though) and dander den (again not sure which one). I am looking for wc advise. You guys seem the most knowledgable about this stuff.

More about : noob

January 24, 2008 2:38:30 PM

OH yeah and people keep quoting prices where are they getting these parts?
January 24, 2008 2:52:08 PM

I really like the H20-220 Compact from Swiftech for "new" Watercoolers. It's simple, easy to use, and uses a very good radiator.

What do you want to put on the loop. You mention a Mobo/CPU in the first, does that mean you want the Northbridge cooled? In the second you also mention a GPU.

I get mine from:

www.ShopPTS.com
www.performance-pcs.com
www.frozencpu.com

Price shop parts at all 3.
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January 24, 2008 3:27:16 PM

Don't forget Danger Den. They are one of the best producers of liquid cooling equipment out there: http://www.dangerden.com

-ouch1
January 24, 2008 3:29:15 PM

ouch1 said:
Don't forget Danger Den. They are one of the best producers of liquid cooling equipment out there: http://www.dangerden.com

-ouch1


I don't like the Hardware Labs and Black Ice series of Choke Tube radiators. Too much flow restriction from most of what I've seen. Stick with Swiftech and Thermochill.

DD does make some nice stuff though.
January 24, 2008 7:03:49 PM

The first system I was just going to cool the cpu. The second system I was going to cool the cpu and the graphics card. I did look at danger den however their pricing on their kits seemed high. I also sent them an e-mail requesting information and they have not responded for 3 days. The other places get right back to me. I really appreciate everyones help.
January 24, 2008 7:23:36 PM

With your background, you'll find Water Cooling a breeze. Just common sense. Not ALL kits are bad. I don't know much about XSPC stuff. All I can say is that I don't see too many people recommend them. That could just mean they're not on too many radar screens.

Some other GREAT WC online retailers:

http://www.jab-tech.com/
http://www.petrastechshop.com/index.html
http://www.xoxide.com/
http://www.frozencpu.com/cat/l1/g30/Liquid_Cooling.html
http://www.svc.com/water-cooling.html
http://www.dangerden.com/store/
http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/

Even though you've never WC'd before, I'd say you have the background to easily DIY and would be happier selecting individual parts. First, just do some background reading. Here's a link to some Water Cooling "Essentials":

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooling/226970-water-coo...


January 24, 2008 8:30:44 PM

ouch1 said:
Don't forget Danger Den. They are one of the best producers of liquid cooling equipment out there: http://www.dangerden.com

-ouch1


I wouldnt say that they are one of the best producers. They really have only produced a line of average performing blocks, and some other problematic products. They do sell alot of good things on their site, and they are the only importer of Thermochill rads (I think at least).

The Swiftech kit mentioned earlier is a good option. DD's kits do seem a little expensive to me, but a really good custom loop is not going to come cheap. I would completely steer clear of XSPC kits. Another option is a kit from Petras Tech Shop mentioned earlier. Maybe a PTS kit for the first one, and a Swiftech kit for the second one. Of course another option is building a custom loop, which can be done pretty easily. I'll even go ahead and list the best for price and performance for each component.

CPU Block

Performance: D-Tek Fuzion and EK Supreme (Both are pretty equal in price/performance), also a Swiftech GTX w/ Copper housing is another option, with similar performance, but a higher price.

Price: Apogee GT

Accessory Blocks

Performance: Although there arent many blocks for this category, I believe the Swiftech MCW30 is the cheapest and best performing NB block. For best aesthetics, a set of 2 mosfet, NB, and SB blocks from EK are hard to beat.

Price: None

GPU Blocks

Performance: The best performing blocks, are GPU only w/ RAMsinks, however, most people believe that Full Cover blocks are much more appealing. For 8800 Cards, the Swiftech Stealth provides the performance of a GPU only block with the aesthetics of a Full Cover. For other cards, most would agree that EK makes the best looking blocks. The best Die-only blocks are the MCW-60 from Swiftech and the Fuzion GPU from D-Tek, both have similar performance, but the Fuzion has a rather large pressure drop, which is why most go with the MCW-60.

Price: The good old Maze 5's are only a few bucks cheaper than the other GPU only blocks mentioned

Radiators

Performance: Thermochill

Price: Swiftech (I really dont see why people buy other radiators than these 2)

Pumps

Performance: Many would say that the Japanese Iwakis are the best pumps, 30 ft. of head press. on the RD-30 is pretty amazing, be warned that an additional power supply and some wiring skills are required to get the most out of these pumps.

Price: The Laing D5 and DDC are the best options price wise. The DDC (sold under a few other names like the Swiftech MCP350/355) provides good head pressure, with very little heat dump, and you can buy different tops (such as Petras top) to change the tubing diameter from 3/8" to 1/2" as well as some pump properties. However, most people are switching to the D5 these days, simply because there have been alot of DDC failures (D5 also sold under other names such as Swiftech MCP655). The D5 has less head pressure, but better overall flow.

Reservoirs

Performance: There is really no performance gain to having a Res. so as long as its not that one DD bay res, or made of Aluminum, its really your choice.

Price: T-Line

Tubing

Performance: Tygon is supposed to give you better bends with less chance of kinking.

Price: Masterkleer is a cheaper option. Also, it doesnt really make much of a difference between tubing sizes, only potentially 1 or 2 degrees difference between the smallest and largest tubing.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask.
January 24, 2008 10:14:47 PM

Good break down. Just a couple of points:


CPU Block:

The Apogee GTX really doesn't need the copper top. Swiftech put it out to counter the mass internet hysteria due to misinformation about its "aluminum" top - even though the aluminum never touches the water. In any event the Fuzion tops the other two by maybe a degree.

RadiatorsRadiators

Hardware Labs Black Ice series are definitely worth considering. The GTX has beat the Thermochill PA120 is some test. Similar price.
January 25, 2008 12:15:20 AM

Its true that the GTX doesn't necessarily need a copper top, but it is not true that Aluminum and Copper don't touch in the Block. It might look like there is a black plastic or Delrin cap at the on the bottom of the GTX's top, but that is just a small layer of black paint, that just flakes off after about a month or 2 of use. Which leaves copper and Anodized Aluminum in direct contact. Although I have heard no signs of corrosion due to using this block with the regular top, there are no worries with the copper top. Also, usually the GTX does get lower temps than the nozzled or un-nozzled Fuzion, even if it is just by a degree or 2.

And to set the record straight, The Black Ice GTX rads are made for different types of fans than the Thermochill PA series. For max performance on the PA rads, people usually undervolt 6 low CFM fans with great results. On the other hand the GTX rads are designed for at least 3 fans rated at 110+ CFMs. If you know much about fans, you will know that the PA almost always beat the GTX while remaining relatively quiet, while the GTX rads will lag behind a few degrees and be as lound as a fighter jet taking off. Which is why I chose the PA series over the GTX series.
January 25, 2008 12:52:21 AM

WestWarrior said:
Its true that the GTX doesn't necessarily need a copper top, but it is not true that Aluminum and Copper don't touch in the Block. It might look like there is a black plastic or Delrin cap at the on the bottom of the GTX's top, but that is just a small layer of black paint, that just flakes off after about a month or 2 of use. Which leaves copper and Anodized Aluminum in direct contact. Although I have heard no signs of corrosion due to using this block with the regular top, there are no worries with the copper top. Also, usually the GTX does get lower temps than the nozzled or un-nozzled Fuzion, even if it is just by a degree or 2.


Only partially true. The top is covered with thin coat of black paint - and it does quickly peel off. It's there only for aesthetics. That's why the block (and any block) should be throughly cleaned before first use. But that is not what covers the aluminum.

From Swiftech's web site:
The housing is CNC machined out of billet aluminum and receives two plating's for a lifetime protection against corrosion: electroless nickel plating (MIL-C-26074E grade B) and Zinc Cobalt plating (ASTM B 840-99 grade 6). A black die is applied after plating strictly for cosmetic appeal.

The GTX has beaten the PA120 with fans as low as 47CFM

Not a biggie. All of your info was good stuff. I didn't mean to start any sort of war of words. Let's just help the guy along.
January 25, 2008 1:31:17 AM

TonyL222 said:
Let's just help the guy along.


Agreed. Also, thank you for your complements. But one thing that I forgot to mention with my OP is the potential for Galvanic Corrosion, a destructive chemical process that eats at the metal in a loop, which can be caused by using Aluminum and Copper in the same loop. I personally know somebody who scratched a plated Aluminum Waterblock (I think it was a Koolance, which should tell you something right there) screwing a barb in or something like that. A few months later he had as what I can only describe as a big green glob of gunk blocking the outlet of one of his blocks. This is why I would use the copper housing, as clumsy as I am, I would scratch it or wear some of the plating off over repeated use. Could you give me a link to that rad test w/ the BI over the TC w/ the low cfm fan?

Also, the CPU blocks I mentioned work best with Multiple cores. If you are still using old Single core or non-IHS CPUs, then I think the Best block you can buy is the Little River Storm G5, but be warned, you have to custom order one from Australia, and I hear the price is around $175. For Price, I would say the Swiftech Storm. Be warned that both of these blocks are very restrictive, so a strong pump is necessary. Also, any of the other blocks I mentioned would work well with an IHSed Single Core, but the storms would not work well with an IHSed multiple core (I have seen a High OC with a G5 user on a naked multi-core proc.).
January 25, 2008 12:52:22 PM

You guys are the best thanks for the information. I think I will do a custom build I think I am mechanical and technical enough to do it. Again your help is much appreciated.
January 25, 2008 2:06:22 PM

ok I have decided to use the wc on the second system. I am using an ammo 533 by coolermaster as my case. It is quite large. I think I am going to go with the H20-220 Compact kit. I looked at doing custom but it added up really fast. Especially if you go top line on all componenets. Will the h20-220 get me overclocking above air cooling? That is really my goal here. Oc over air.
January 25, 2008 6:12:54 PM

Very good kit. The ammo 533 is a mid tower, right. This kit will also save you from having to place a pump and a res. You could possibly add that 8800GTS to the loop, though it will also add a lot of heat.
January 25, 2008 6:56:43 PM

Yeah the Ammo 533 is a mid but ist is strangly roomy. Kinda lilan (old days) like.
January 25, 2008 6:59:52 PM

Would adding the gpu to the loop be too much for this kit?
January 27, 2008 3:29:17 AM

I had that kit with a cpu and gpu. Temps were "good" even at load. a 120.3 would give you more margin to OC your cpu, though.
January 29, 2008 10:44:31 PM

WestWarrior said:
I wouldnt say that they are one of the best producers. They really have only produced a line of average performing blocks, and some other problematic products. They do sell alot of good things on their site, and they are the only importer of Thermochill rads (I think at least).

The Swiftech kit mentioned earlier is a good option. DD's kits do seem a little expensive to me, but a really good custom loop is not going to come cheap. I would completely steer clear of XSPC kits. Another option is a kit from Petras Tech Shop mentioned earlier. Maybe a PTS kit for the first one, and a Swiftech kit for the second one. Of course another option is building a custom loop, which can be done pretty easily. I'll even go ahead and list the best for price and performance for each component.

CPU Block

Performance: D-Tek Fuzion and EK Supreme (Both are pretty equal in price/performance), also a Swiftech GTX w/ Copper housing is another option, with similar performance, but a higher price.

Price: Apogee GT

Accessory Blocks

Performance: Although there arent many blocks for this category, I believe the Swiftech MCW30 is the cheapest and best performing NB block. For best aesthetics, a set of 2 mosfet, NB, and SB blocks from EK are hard to beat.

Price: None

GPU Blocks

Performance: The best performing blocks, are GPU only w/ RAMsinks, however, most people believe that Full Cover blocks are much more appealing. For 8800 Cards, the Swiftech Stealth provides the performance of a GPU only block with the aesthetics of a Full Cover. For other cards, most would agree that EK makes the best looking blocks. The best Die-only blocks are the MCW-60 from Swiftech and the Fuzion GPU from D-Tek, both have similar performance, but the Fuzion has a rather large pressure drop, which is why most go with the MCW-60.

Price: The good old Maze 5's are only a few bucks cheaper than the other GPU only blocks mentioned

Radiators

Performance: Thermochill

Price: Swiftech (I really dont see why people buy other radiators than these 2)

Pumps

Performance: Many would say that the Japanese Iwakis are the best pumps, 30 ft. of head press. on the RD-30 is pretty amazing, be warned that an additional power supply and some wiring skills are required to get the most out of these pumps.

Price: The Laing D5 and DDC are the best options price wise. The DDC (sold under a few other names like the Swiftech MCP350/355) provides good head pressure, with very little heat dump, and you can buy different tops (such as Petras top) to change the tubing diameter from 3/8" to 1/2" as well as some pump properties. However, most people are switching to the D5 these days, simply because there have been alot of DDC failures (D5 also sold under other names such as Swiftech MCP655). The D5 has less head pressure, but better overall flow.

Reservoirs

Performance: There is really no performance gain to having a Res. so as long as its not that one DD bay res, or made of Aluminum, its really your choice.

Price: T-Line

Tubing

Performance: Tygon is supposed to give you better bends with less chance of kinking.

Price: Masterkleer is a cheaper option. Also, it doesnt really make much of a difference between tubing sizes, only potentially 1 or 2 degrees difference between the smallest and largest tubing.

If you have any other questions feel free to ask.


Funny that you would say that they produce an average line of product when the MC-TDX block is one of hte best performing ones out there. Also you might want to check out the following link if you think that Swiftech water blocks with aluminum tops are anodized well enough to protect them: http://forum.pcstats.com/showthread.php?t=41498

-ouch1
January 30, 2008 1:41:30 AM

The MC-TDX is a decent performing block, however nothing that I've seen indicates that it outperforms a Fuzion, Supreme, or GTX. It also annoys me that Danger Den still insists on using their same old TDX design, inlet on the die, and outlet off the edge of the CPU. However the thing that really annoys me is that they basically took the old TDX, stuck the exact pin array of the Fuzion in the middle and called it a day. More restrictive than the Fuzion? Yes. Better performing that the Fuzion? No. Better performance/price ratio than the Fuzion? No. Any innovation on DD's part? Nope. I say skip on the MC-TDX and buy a Fuzion. I'm not trying to put DD down, thats just the way that it is. On the positive side however, DD has been really important to the growth of WCing in the US, for for that DD gets 2 thumbs up.
January 30, 2008 1:25:20 PM

Man that's ugly!! I noticed that the owner used plain distilled water with no additives, and I didn't notice if he'd cleaned his components prior to first use. Somehow his GTX top is very scratched up from the 2nd pic. Still that's and ugly sight, and I wonder why he didn't go back to Swiftech to have them remedy the situation (replacement GTX with the copper top).

I'm using the Swiftech Stealth, which is basically a GTX for a GPU. No signs of corrosion, but I'll be looking for it. with the number of GTXs and Stealths out there, you would think this would be a more widely reported issue. Wonder how much lack of proper loop maintenance factors in. Still, not excuses for Swiftech. I can only account for my own loop.
January 30, 2008 2:40:31 PM

WestWarrior said:
The MC-TDX is a decent performing block, however nothing that I've seen indicates that it outperforms a Fuzion, Supreme, or GTX. It also annoys me that Danger Den still insists on using their same old TDX design, inlet on the die, and outlet off the edge of the CPU. However the thing that really annoys me is that they basically took the old TDX, stuck the exact pin array of the Fuzion in the middle and called it a day. More restrictive than the Fuzion? Yes. Better performing that the Fuzion? No. Better performance/price ratio than the Fuzion? No. Any innovation on DD's part? Nope. I say skip on the MC-TDX and buy a Fuzion. I'm not trying to put DD down, thats just the way that it is. On the positive side however, DD has been really important to the growth of WCing in the US, for for that DD gets 2 thumbs up.


Umm I know you like the Fuzion, but sheeshe I think your going it bit too far. BTW here is a review of the MC-TDX for you: http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/DangerDen_M5_MC-...

BTW the MC-TDX uses a similar pin pattern as the Fuzion (minus the extra fins outside the pin array), but due to the shape of the block itself it uses a less turbulent means for allowing the used water to get out of the block. Making it less restrictive than previous blocks. Unlike with the Fuzion where the water has to go through an extra set of fins that increase the restriction of the flow for minimal gains.

Plus if you were to buy the Fuzion "from lets say Petra's" it is normally $64.99 plus tax and shipping. Where as if you buy the MC-TDX it is $59.95 and no tax since Oregon has no sales tax. And Dd is in Oregon. The price difference including shipping is at the bare minimum $10. hmmm $10 more for 1C better temps. I don't think it is worth it.

TonyL222 said:
Man that's ugly!! I noticed that the owner used plain distilled water with no additives, and I didn't notice if he'd cleaned his components prior to first use. Somehow his GTX top is very scratched up from the 2nd pic. Still that's and ugly sight, and I wonder why he didn't go back to Swiftech to have them remedy the situation (replacement GTX with the copper top).

I'm using the Swiftech Stealth, which is basically a GTX for a GPU. No signs of corrosion, but I'll be looking for it. with the number of GTXs and Stealths out there, you would think this would be a more widely reported issue. Wonder how much lack of proper loop maintenance factors in. Still, not excuses for Swiftech. I can only account for my own loop.


The user (Avid) is very experienced at liquid cooling and makes a habit of cleaning the components of his rig when her makes any changes. The reason the top of the GTX is scratched is he tried to remove the corrosion with a screwdriver. Thats all.

Now I don't care when someone says that Swiftech blocks are anodized to protect against corrosion. After seeing those pictures and a few others of Swiftech blocks that are corroded due to galvanic corrosion I know for sure I will stay away from them and will not recommend them to any of my friends. I am sorry but if the powder coating or anodizing is so bad that is it flaking off and being recognized as paint and not a high quality corrosion inhibitive coating then they have lost my trust. At least with a Dd block I know it is high quality copper through and through. Hence the reason why BFG went to Dd to have the water blocks for the preconfigured water cooled 8800GTX's and Ultra's designed for them. And other companies have made water blocks for the same video cards that were almost complete clones of the Dd blocks (I.e. EK, and a few others).

-ouch1
January 30, 2008 3:08:36 PM

Sounds like you are familiar with the guy. Why didn't he ask Swiftech to correct the situation? I would insist on a new block/w copper top even if I didn't plan to use it.

I can only speak to my own loop, and so far there's no signs of any issues. as an aside, I always use additives w/corrosion inhibitors (HydrX or pentosin). Why sacrifice this cheap insurance just to gain a half of a degree or so?
January 30, 2008 3:19:35 PM

I think the only reason Avid did not ask for Swiftech to replace the block was that he is in the UK and bought the block here in the US. But I think he was also already planning on buy a Fuzion and just needed an excuse.

-ouch1
February 4, 2008 12:39:30 PM

Thanks for all the advise everyone. I am now running my h20-220compact and it is wonderful. Room temp is 29c and cpu temp is 28 at full load. I cannot believe how great this is. Now time to oc the system. To give an idea stock cooling at load was around 46c previously. I decided to oc the e8400 instead of the q6600. I have a tuniq 120 on the q6600 already and under load it is at 47c. Which means the chip itself runs really hot. It is a b3 stepping chip so not much headroom there anyway. I am going to push that up to 3 maybe a bit more but not hoping for a lot from that one. Again thanks a lot. It was soooo easy to install. Man I should have gone to water 5 years ago. It was truely simple. I have had air coolers that have given me a lot more trouble.
February 4, 2008 4:31:34 PM

Welcome to the club. I didn't think you'd have any problems with your background. Be forewarned, though. Once you get started, its hard to stop tinkering (i.e., spending money)
February 6, 2008 2:40:09 AM

ouch1 said:
Umm I know you like the Fuzion, but sheeshe I think your going it bit too far. BTW here is a review of the MC-TDX for you: http://www.virtual-hideout.net/reviews/DangerDen_M5_MC-...

BTW the MC-TDX uses a similar pin pattern as the Fuzion (minus the extra fins outside the pin array), but due to the shape of the block itself it uses a less turbulent means for allowing the used water to get out of the block. Making it less restrictive than previous blocks. Unlike with the Fuzion where the water has to go through an extra set of fins that increase the restriction of the flow for minimal gains.

Plus if you were to buy the Fuzion "from lets say Petra's" it is normally $64.99 plus tax and shipping. Where as if you buy the MC-TDX it is $59.95 and no tax since Oregon has no sales tax. And Dd is in Oregon. The price difference including shipping is at the bare minimum $10. hmmm $10 more for 1C better temps. I don't think it is worth it.


Sorry for the tardy post, I haven't been home for the last few days. I have seen that review, and it really has no comparison at all to other high-end blocks, making it useless. It does mention that it performs 5-10 degrees cooler than something, the only problem is it doesn't say what. I did however recently see a test by a reputable tester comparing the MC-TDX against the Fuzion. The Fuzion is in fact less restrictive than the DD, and averages close to 2 degrees difference, not counting the added performance to other blocks in the loop. You are right about the Oregon thing, but if you are in the 99% of the US population that doesnt live in Oregon, the Fuzion basically retains around the same price as the MC-TDX.

Most importantly, to gimper, congratulations on your WCing setup! I think your temps are just a little off, but they are still very good. Enjoy.
February 6, 2008 2:07:00 PM

WestWarrior said:
Sorry for the tardy post, I haven't been home for the last few days. I have seen that review, and it really has no comparison at all to other high-end blocks, making it useless. It does mention that it performs 5-10 degrees cooler than something, the only problem is it doesn't say what. I did however recently see a test by a reputable tester comparing the MC-TDX against the Fuzion. The Fuzion is in fact less restrictive than the DD, and averages close to 2 degrees difference, not counting the added performance to other blocks in the loop. You are right about the Oregon thing, but if you are in the 99% of the US population that doesnt live in Oregon, the Fuzion basically retains around the same price as the MC-TDX.

Most importantly, to gimper, congratulations on your WCing setup! I think your temps are just a little off, but they are still very good. Enjoy.



Hmm I would really like to see that review. Because my friend and I used a MC-TDX on his Athlon 64 X2 5000+ (black core) that is running at 3.3GHz. And it is sitting at 3C over ambient air temps under load & within 1C of ambient air temp at idle. I would say that is pretty good performance from a block you consider to be second rate.

As for the tax issue even if you don't live in Oregon all you have to do is buy the part from thier website and you won't have to pay sales tax. Thats what we did. And we are in California.

-ouch1
February 11, 2008 2:39:15 PM

WestWarrior said:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=16...

A little way down the page.



Hmmmm. Not to rag on you but he did not mentions much about the syste other than the loop. I did notice that he dids not user any kind of nozzles with the bloc kand that is where the Dd block improves. I would rather see on where the tester lists the system specs along with the testing setup.

-ouch1
February 13, 2008 2:34:40 PM

TonyL222 said:
Welcome to the club. I didn't think you'd have any problems with your background. Be forewarned, though. Once you get started, its hard to stop tinkering (i.e., spending money)



You are very much correct on that :D 

Now.. I need a fan controller and 3x 2200rpm yate loons for my rad.. muahahah
February 13, 2008 10:11:51 PM

Hatman said:


Now.. I need a fan controller and 3x 2200rpm yate loons for my rad.. muahahah


It doesn't take long :lol:  Take a look at this one:

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_p...

Six channels at 30 Watts per channel. You can control a lot of fans, lights, etc with this one.
February 13, 2008 10:29:53 PM

ouch1 said:
Hmmmm. Not to rag on you but he did not mentions much about the syste other than the loop. I did notice that he dids not user any kind of nozzles with the bloc kand that is where the Dd block improves. I would rather see on where the tester lists the system specs along with the testing setup.

-ouch1


What difference would it make at all what the system tested was? The CPU would still put out the same amount heat between in both tests. All a CPU is in the test is a heat source, nothing else in the system matters. Neither the MC-TDX or the Fuzion used accelerator nozzles, so both are performing with no modifications.
February 14, 2008 2:50:48 PM

WestWarrior said:
What difference would it make at all what the system tested was? The CPU would still put out the same amount heat between in both tests. All a CPU is in the test is a heat source, nothing else in the system matters. Neither the MC-TDX or the Fuzion used accelerator nozzles, so both are performing with no modifications.


Hmm I remember that when I setup the MC-TDX on my friends system the instructions said that it would perform the best when accelerator nozzles are used. But there is still only a 1.5C difference between the Fuzion and the MC-TDX. For $10 less I think that is a pretty decent deal.

-ouch1
!