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New HD-DirecTV birds not compaitable?

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Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:45:12 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Has anyone else heard, as either rumor or fact, that the new bird DirecTV
put up last week (and the 3 future ones) will be using MPEG-4 thus making
the current DirecTV-Tivo units obsolete because they use MPEG-2?

Don't all past and current HD boxes decode MPEG-2?

TIA
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 8:45:13 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Reggie Dunbar (no@thanks.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Has anyone else heard, as either rumor or fact, that the new bird DirecTV
> put up last week (and the 3 future ones) will be using MPEG-4 thus making
> the current DirecTV-Tivo units obsolete because they use MPEG-2?

Current DirecTV receivers of all kinds will continue to work for a *very*
long time (at least 2 years). If they ever stop working because the
current signals are turned off, you can bet that DirecTV will give you
new hardware.

--
Jeff Rife | "A rabbit's foot? You slaughtered an innocent
| animal for some silly superstition?"
| "I didn't personally slaughter the rabbit. I shot
| a giant panda out of a tree, and he fell on it."
| -- "Cybill"
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 10:01:27 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
> Reggie Dunbar (no@thanks.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > Has anyone else heard, as either rumor or fact, that the new bird
> > DirecTV put up last week (and the 3 future ones) will be using MPEG-4
> > thus making the current DirecTV-Tivo units obsolete because they use
> > MPEG-2?
>
> Current DirecTV receivers of all kinds will continue to work for a *very*
> long time (at least 2 years). If they ever stop working because the
> current signals are turned off, you can bet that DirecTV will give you
> new hardware.

They will work for the SD customers, but HD customers will need new boxes.
Chip

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Anonymous
May 3, 2005 10:01:28 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

(cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > Current DirecTV receivers of all kinds will continue to work for a *very*
> > long time (at least 2 years). If they ever stop working because the
> > current signals are turned off, you can bet that DirecTV will give you
> > new hardware.
>
> They will work for the SD customers, but HD customers will need new boxes.

EVERY DirecTV receiver (HD, SD, DVR, whatever) that works today will have
the exact same functionality two years from now that it has today.

If you want *new* functionality (new channels, more interactivity, etc.),
you might need a new receiver.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/GoldenRetri...
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:48:36 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
> (cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > > Current DirecTV receivers of all kinds will continue to work for a
> > > *very* long time (at least 2 years). If they ever stop working
> > > because the current signals are turned off, you can bet that DirecTV
> > > will give you new hardware.
> >
> > They will work for the SD customers, but HD customers will need new
> > boxes.
>
> EVERY DirecTV receiver (HD, SD, DVR, whatever) that works today will have
> the exact same functionality two years from now that it has today.
>
> If you want *new* functionality (new channels, more interactivity, etc.),
> you might need a new receiver.

So when the HD channels, old and new ones, are converted to MPEG4, the old
HD receivers will still work? If so, why is D* going to switch them all out?
Chip

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Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:48:37 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

(cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > If you want *new* functionality (new channels, more interactivity, etc.),
> > you might need a new receiver.
>
> So when the HD channels, old and new ones, are converted to MPEG4, the old
> HD receivers will still work?

There are no plans by DirecTV to "convert" any channels to MPEG-4. It's
likely that current channels will be duplicated in MPEG-4 on the new
birds (since there is so much excess bandwidth), and the LIL HD channels
will be MPEG-4. But the current channels will still exist for quite
some time...two years is the minimum guess, based on DirecTV financials
about how much cash they are allocating each year to do receiver swaps.

> If so, why is D* going to switch them all out?

They're not. They will slowly switch as time goes by and they have
requests from people that want the new channels. But, they are not going
to a wholesale switch of all receivers for new ones.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/FoxTrot/GutterBall.gif
Anonymous
May 3, 2005 11:48:38 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

The High Tech DTV Coalition backs the transition date of Dec. 31, 2006

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu...

If, (big if) the Tech sectors gets their wish of a firm date for the analog
shutdown, the change out will have to work within that time line. I think
the change out may happen quicker then some have on the drawing board. There
are some very heavy hitters calling for the shutdown on schedule to allow
them to profit from new equipment sells.

It may be better to shutdown the analog duplication of LIL as soon as
possible and get on to the change to complete MPEG 4.



"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce1b450cb97378989d01@news.nabs.net...
> (cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> > If you want *new* functionality (new channels, more interactivity,
>> > etc.),
>> > you might need a new receiver.
>>
>> So when the HD channels, old and new ones, are converted to MPEG4, the
>> old
>> HD receivers will still work?
>
> There are no plans by DirecTV to "convert" any channels to MPEG-4. It's
> likely that current channels will be duplicated in MPEG-4 on the new
> birds (since there is so much excess bandwidth), and the LIL HD channels
> will be MPEG-4. But the current channels will still exist for quite
> some time...two years is the minimum guess, based on DirecTV financials
> about how much cash they are allocating each year to do receiver swaps.
>
>> If so, why is D* going to switch them all
>> out?
>
> They're not. They will slowly switch as time goes by and they have
> requests from people that want the new channels. But, they are not going
> to a wholesale switch of all receivers for new ones.
>
> --
> Jeff Rife |
> | http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/FoxTrot/GutterBall.gif
May 4, 2005 12:21:39 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Reggie Dunbar" <no@thanks.com> wrote in message news:sUNde.1093$Jz2.99@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
> Has anyone else heard, as either rumor or fact, that the new bird DirecTV
> put up last week (and the 3 future ones) will be using MPEG-4 thus making
> the current DirecTV-Tivo units obsolete because they use MPEG-2?
>
> Don't all past and current HD boxes decode MPEG-2?
>
> TIA
>
There are a LOT more differences than MPEG2 to MPEG4. For example, they are going from 4PSK to 8PSK modulation, new FEC algorithm, and Ku to Ka band. There are a lot of changes many of which require a new receiver even if the old ones could decode MPEG4. It also depends upon the MPEG4 profile they use. Some of the levels that give the best improvement in compression are extremely computation intensive for both encoding and decoding. Most of the promise of MPEG4 compression improvement will not be implemented immediately because of the processing load imposed by real-time encoding and decoding of HD, or even SD material. They get a big boost in payload from the new satellites just from the things I mentioned earlier.

David
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 2:51:27 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

jolt (ergoacess@yahoo.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> The High Tech DTV Coalition backs the transition date of Dec. 31, 2006
>
> http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu...

This has nothing at all to do with DirecTV.

> If, (big if) the Tech sectors gets their wish of a firm date for the analog
> shutdown, the change out will have to work within that time line.

Not at all true. See below.

> It may be better to shutdown the analog duplication of LIL as soon as
> possible and get on to the change to complete MPEG 4.

There is no need for analog duplication today. I have several stations in
my town that have no analog tranmitter yet are carried on DirecTV SD LIL.

But, that's beside the point. DirecTV has stated they will *not* be
shutting off the MPEG-2 SD for a *very* long time (5-6 years from now at
best). This is because a lot of people are quite content with DirecTV with
SD locals. Changing out 10M (or more) receivers for no reason would be
very expensive.

HD subcribers are going to bear the brunt of the transition, although the
costs probably won't be that significant to them.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/ShermansLagoon/OtherWhiteM...
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 7:23:51 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Jeff Rife <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote:
> jolt (ergoacess@yahoo.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > The High Tech DTV Coalition backs the transition date of Dec. 31, 2006
> >
> > http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu...
> > 895349
>
> This has nothing at all to do with DirecTV.
>
> > If, (big if) the Tech sectors gets their wish of a firm date for the
> > analog shutdown, the change out will have to work within that time
> > line.
>
> Not at all true. See below.
>
> > It may be better to shutdown the analog duplication of LIL as soon as
> > possible and get on to the change to complete MPEG 4.
>
> There is no need for analog duplication today. I have several stations
> in my town that have no analog tranmitter yet are carried on DirecTV SD
> LIL.
>
> But, that's beside the point. DirecTV has stated they will *not* be
> shutting off the MPEG-2 SD for a *very* long time (5-6 years from now at
> best). This is because a lot of people are quite content with DirecTV
> with SD locals. Changing out 10M (or more) receivers for no reason would
> be very expensive.
>
> HD subcribers are going to bear the brunt of the transition, although the
> costs probably won't be that significant to them.

That's not what you said before. You said all D* receivers will maintain
their functionality. Now you are saying that HD receivers will be changed.
Gee, isn't that what I said?
Chip

--
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Usenet Newsgroup Service $9.95/Month 30GB
Anonymous
May 4, 2005 5:41:40 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

(cjdaytonjrnospam@cox.net) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > HD subcribers are going to bear the brunt of the transition, although the
> > costs probably won't be that significant to them.
>
> That's not what you said before.

Yes, it is.

If you want *more* HD than you get now, you will bear the burden of dealing
with getting the new receiver from DirecTV. In particular, if you aren't
in one of the areas where HD LIL is offered, you might have to pay to get
a receiver that handles the new format. In addition, new subscribers will
probably have to pay for the new-format HD equipment. This is what I meant
by "bear the brunt".

> You said all D* receivers will maintain
> their functionality.

They will. Every single one of them will keep doing what it does today,
for at least several years. But, if you want the new HD LIL, or what will
probably be 10-20 national HD channels, you will need a new receiver.

> Now you are saying that HD receivers will be changed.

No, I'm saying you need a new receiver to get *more* stuff. But you won't
need a new receiver to maintain current functionality.

> Gee, isn't that what I said?

No, you said that all HD receivers will *have* to be changed. No receivers
(HD or SD) *have* to be changed if the user doesn't want anything more
than they get today.

Granted, *someday* DirecTV will probably finally say "OK, you have to
switch to maintain functionality", but their financials show that for HD
receivers that is 3-5 years away, and for SD it is 4-8 years in the future.

--
Jeff Rife | "What kind of universe is this where a man can't
| love his fake wife's mother's best friend?"
|
| -- Ned Dorsey, "Ned and Stacey"
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 7:48:42 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Yeah, I figured my current Samsung and Hughes HD units would get the
channels they do now but if I want to take full advantage of my additional
HD package I'll have to buy new recievers.

Having spent close to $1000 on HD recievers, I wonder if it was cheaper just
to go with local cable and let them swap CPE. :( 
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 7:48:43 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

Reggie Dunbar (no@thanks.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> Yeah, I figured my current Samsung and Hughes HD units would get the
> channels they do now but if I want to take full advantage of my additional
> HD package I'll have to buy new recievers.

If you already have HD receivers and live in a area where DirecTV has
started offering HD LIL, you should be able to get a new box real cheap...
maybe even free.

The theory is that they will take your existing HD receiver and use it as
a "reconditioned" one for warranty replacement.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/OverTheHedge/Macarena.gif
Anonymous
May 5, 2005 9:50:51 PM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Jeff Rife" <wevsr@nabs.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1ce202b87764fd58989d03@news.nabs.net...
> jolt (ergoacess@yahoo.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
>> The High Tech DTV Coalition backs the transition date of Dec. 31, 2006
>>
>> http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/recent_display.jsp?vnu...
>
> This has nothing at all to do with DirecTV.
>
If the FCC is pressured to set and hold firm to a Dec. 31, 2006, it will
have an effect on future plans for all entertainment providers. There were
talks to change the date to 2008 because of the impact it would have on
various concerns.

Logically running all the LILs in SD and HD to slow receiver change outs
versus the resulting waste of bandwidth is not a win, win situation. Also
delaying the change to MPEG 4 adds further to wasted bandwidth. While the
number of subs that demand HD now it marginal their road map suggest that
they believe that will change in the not to distant future. It won't be only
HD customers that will notice cheap OTA HD receivers and the high quality of
the digital network feeds. OTA receivers will be cheap and subsidized if
it's required to make them so. When some hookup their analog set and see
they can get network channels for a small investment and no monthly charge
it will result in some churn. A 2008 date would certainly have fallen in
line better for a long change over plan. A change in the date will have a
yet undetermined effect. The tech sector is arming for a fight and Direct
maybe one among others that opposes the 2006 plan .

What will be carried on the 7 MHz. frequency when it's freed up has not been
fully mapped out. While immediate plans are for wireless internet to rural
areas, I have not read anything to suggest that entertainment could not also
be carried to subscribers. Also keep in mind SBC's Project Lightspeed that
will invest 4 billion to deploy fiber to 18 million home by 2007 to compete
with cable and satellite operators.

Unless you suggest that some companies work in a vacuum unaffected by
changes it their industry, it should effect the change out schedule. The
change to MPEG 4 will take place as quickly as required to keep pace with
their competition even if it's only from the networks or they could suffer.


"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological
criminal." Albert Einstein
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 2:29:52 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

jolt (ergoacess@yahoo.com) wrote in alt.tv.tech.hdtv:
> > This has nothing at all to do with DirecTV.
> >
> If the FCC is pressured to set and hold firm to a Dec. 31, 2006, it will
> have an effect on future plans for all entertainment providers. There were
> talks to change the date to 2008 because of the impact it would have on
> various concerns.

This *still* has nothing to do with DirecTV.

> Logically running all the LILs in SD and HD to slow receiver change outs
> versus the resulting waste of bandwidth is not a win, win situation.

Of course it is. DirecTV will have room for 1500 HD LIL channels by the
end of this year, but almost nobody will be watching them. Meanwhile,
they have 15M customers who watch the SD locals on equipment that works
just fine. Changing that equipment out for literally no reason.

> Also
> delaying the change to MPEG 4 adds further to wasted bandwidth.

DirecTV has stated the will *never* change SD channels to MPEG-4 because
the bandwidth gain isn't significant. All new HD channels will be MPEG-4
and come from Ku band satellites using 8PSK modulation (and it is this
combination that gives them the vast bandwidth), so the only bandwidth
waste is the few HD channels they have right now.

> While the
> number of subs that demand HD now it marginal their road map suggest that
> they believe that will change in the not to distant future.

In two years, DirecTV will have bandwidth to handle *every* HD channel
available (local or national). That's more than enough time, and people
who want the new receivers will be able to get them.

--
Jeff Rife |
| http://www.nabs.net/Cartoons/RhymesWithOrange/BirdDogs....
May 6, 2005 6:56:42 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

In article <JLOdnUu9LI3TPuffRVn-tQ@comcast.com> "jolt" <ergoacess@yahoo.com> writes:

>What will be carried on the 7 MHz. frequency when it's freed up has not been
>fully mapped out.

I expect it will continue to be the worldwide 40 meter amateur band.


Alan
Anonymous
May 6, 2005 6:56:43 AM

Archived from groups: alt.tv.tech.hdtv (More info?)

"Alan" <nospam@w6yx.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:D 5emda$e3v$1@news.Stanford.EDU...
> In article <JLOdnUu9LI3TPuffRVn-tQ@comcast.com> "jolt"
> <ergoacess@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>What will be carried on the 7 MHz. frequency when it's freed up has not
>>been
>>fully mapped out.
>
> I expect it will continue to be the worldwide 40 meter amateur band.
>
>
> Alan


Sorry you are correct I should have typed 700 MHz. frequency.
!