Combinate Water-, Air- and Heatsink-cooling system?

[xzec]

Hi,


I've just discovered this site, and I found out that Tom's Hardware was greatly better than XbitLabs; although XbitLabs' do a really great job. Anyways, I was gonna investigate to a pretty high-end computer, but I need the "ultimate" cooling system. I know the best coolers, wich Tom's and Xbit showed me.
Chassis:
Cooler Master Cosmos Silver

The heatsink system:
Motherboard: Thermalright HR-05/IFX http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p.../hr05_ifx/product_chitset_cooler_hr05_ifx.htm
CPU: Thermalright Ultra-120 Extreme http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p...r_u120ex.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
VGA: Thermalright HR-03 GT http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p...r_hr03gt.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
RAM: Thermalright HR-07 Duo http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p..._hr07duo.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==
MOSFET: Thermalright HR-09 S/U (type 1) http://www.thermalright.com/new_a_p...ler_hr09.htm?art=MTQyMywxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

The watercooling system:
MSI/Watercooling Hydrogen http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/02/20/cpu_cooler_charts_2008/page13.html (Page 13 to 14; Tom's Cooler Charts)
or
BigWater 745 http://www.thermaltake.com/product/Liguid/DIY/cl-w0076/cl-w0076.asp

The aircooling system:
Akasa Ultra Quiet Amber Fan http://www.akasa-europe.com/akasa_english/spec_page/fans/spec_ak_184_l2b.htm
Nexus 120mm Real Silent Fan http://www.nexustek.nl/120mmcasefan.htm
Nexus 80mm Real Silent Fan http://www.nexustek.nl/80mmcasefan.htm
Nexus 92mm Real Silent Fan http://www.nexustek.nl/NXS-nexus92mmrealsilentcasefan.htm

1)
I was wondering, if there's possible to use watercooling, heatsink and aircooling, all together?
Is it possible to first use watercooling on all the cards, and then have heatsink and fans upon the watercooler?

2)
And if it's possible, will there be much efficiency of it?

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[phreejak]

If, say, you watercooled your CPU and GPU(s) with top-of-the-line waterblocks and had all the appropriate top-of-the-line parts (pump, tubing, etc) there isn't anything that an aircooling part could add to it to help. You see, the purpose of the heatsink/fan combos is to draw heat away from the source but the waterblock/coolant/rad does it so much better (provided you don't have fullbody blocks on the GPUs and you are using someting along the lines of an MCP 655 pump).

Seriously, once you've dedicated your rig to being watercooled and you've purchased top notch parts - you've moved well beyond anything air cooling could do or even contribute to..

 

[xzec]

If, say, you watercooled your CPU and GPU(s) with top-of-the-line waterblocks and had all the appropriate top-of-the-line parts (pump, tubing, etc) there isn't anything that an aircooling part could add to it to help. You see, the purpose of the heatsink/fan combos is to draw heat away from the source but the waterblock/coolant/rad does it so much better (provided you don't have fullbody blocks on the GPUs and you are using someting along the lines of an MCP 655 pump).

Seriously, once you've dedicated your rig to being watercooled and you've purchased top notch parts - you've moved well beyond anything air cooling could do or even contribute to..

Well, that's not fully true, the heatsink system I've made, are one of the best cooling system ever made, and so is it with the watercooling system. Both is very efficient, but if I could combinate all three of them, I would've be overjoyed. But for combinate water-, air- and heatsink-cooling system, I guess I need an extended watercooling system, to fit the heatsink upon it. On the heatsinks and the chassis, there'll be fans onto them.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Drawn with my über MS Paint skills!

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[Hatman]

No that wont help much at all. Aside from most of that rad not getting any attention all the heat isn't magically going to go to that heatsink and all of the heat is just gonna build up.

If you want high end cooling go for a newer thermochill rad and some 80cfm fans. You wont get any better.

If you want better then that you're going to have to go phase or extremely high wattage peltier which still needs wc'ing anyway.

 

[xzec]

No that wont help much at all. Aside from most of that rad not getting any attention all the heat isn't magically going to go to that heatsink and all of the heat is just gonna build up.

If you want high end cooling go for a newer thermochill rad and some 80cfm fans. You wont get any better.

If you want better then that you're going to have to go phase or extremely high wattage peltier which still needs wc'ing anyway.

You've gotta point there. Just what I expected, the heatsink won't help that much. But I think that putting some fans with the watercooling would help a bit. But is there a some device that can cool down the watercooling itself? Not what is used as normal, but a really great at cooling down the water inside the watercooling. Like, somekind of a freezer.

Edit:
Found a solution for a more efficient watercooler, but it's not what I was thinking about. But putting a freezer-like device with this solution, will make this the best cooling system I've ever seen.
More efficient watercooling: http://www.overclockers.com/tips313/

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[phreejak]

With waterblocks like the Fuzion, EK Supreme or Apogee GTX you have an increased surface area through which the coolant travels - variations of some form of diamond-pin matrix. There are deep channels for the coolant to travel through. From the looks of your drawing it is just a flat surface that the coolant would travel through - the least efficient of any design. Having a heatsink/fan combo is just making the whole cooling process more complex and even more inefficient. If it were the most efficient design then all the other companies would be using some form of it.

I used TEC waterblocks for a number of years and one thing they aren't is efficient. Huge power drains with not as near results. Yes, under the right conditions they produce sub-ambient temps but the heat they generated is tremendous. For every 226watt module that was used in a cooling loop you needed to used a dual 120mm rad to cool it. Further, if you used a 437watt module you ended up having to use two 120mm rads (or a quad 120mm rad) minimum as a triple 120mm rad just wasn't enough to handle the heat the module produced (and give you the best the module could deliver).

Phase change is impractical. It produced the most drastic results but it involved such a commitment (money, noise, etc.) that it just isn't for most people. Also, the most I have ever seen were phase change kits that could do a CPU and an SLI setup but, no other blocks could be added to s loop. You see more phase change kits up for sale on eBay than TEC kits.

 

[xzec]

With waterblocks like the Fuzion, EK Supreme or Apogee GTX you have an increased surface area through which the coolant travels - variations of some form of diamond-pin matrix. There are deep channels for the coolant to travel through. From the looks of your drawing it is just a flat surface that the coolant would travel through - the least efficient of any design. Having a heatsink/fan combo is just making the whole cooling process more complex and even more inefficient. If it were the most efficient design then all the other companies would be using some form of it.

I used TEC waterblocks for a number of years and one thing they aren't is efficient. Huge power drains with not as near results. Yes, under the right conditions they produce sub-ambient temps but the heat they generated is tremendous. For every 226watt module that was used in a cooling loop you needed to used a dual 120mm rad to cool it. Further, if you used a 437watt module you ended up having to use two 120mm rads (or a quad 120mm rad) minimum as a triple 120mm rad just wasn't enough to handle the heat the module produced (and give you the best the module could deliver).

Phase change is impractical. It produced the most drastic results but it involved such a commitment (money, noise, etc.) that it just isn't for most people. Also, the most I have ever seen were phase change kits that could do a CPU and an SLI setup but, no other blocks could be added to s loop. You see more phase change kits up for sale on eBay than TEC kits.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying I should drop the watercooling, and go for the heatsink and fans instead?
I've heard change phase cooling is not just hard to build up, but really difficult to make it work on idle and load. From the Overclockers, you can see how efficient it is and how wrong it can go: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1238/index09.asp <-- Especially at the fourth picture.

I was going for the heatsink, but I got an idea to combine every single cooling system, but turned out it'll just be worse. But I'll go for heatsink and fans or watercooling and fans. I'm still not sure what to go for.
But okay, is there a way to have, like, a freezer to cool down the heatsinks then?
Something like this:


Btw, the picture I draw was just an example. You said: "From the looks of your drawing it is just a flat surface that the coolant would travel through". It's just a bad drawing, and I didn't mean that the watercooling was going to be like that, its just an example of what I meant, with the combination of water-, air- and heatsink-cooling.

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[phreejak]

Earlier I was just saying that you should go "either or".

Ok, if that is a waterblock (with a hsf attached to it) then something similar to that has been done -

by Evercool - Evercool WC-601 Silver Knight Self Contained CPU Water Cooler

and Thermaltake - Thermaltake Copper Heatpipe CPU Water Block Volcano

and Xigmatek - Xigmatek AIO

Here is a review of the Silverknight and the AIO:
http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3032

and the Thermaltake model:
http://www.atruereview.com/atruereview/thermaltake_volcano/heat_exchanger.php

 

[xzec]

Earlier I was just saying that you should go "either or".

Ok, if that is a waterblock (with a hsf attached to it) then something similar to that has been done -

by Evercool - Evercool WC-601 Silver Knight Self Contained CPU Water Cooler

and Thermaltake - Thermaltake Copper Heatpipe CPU Water Block Volcano

and Xigmatek - Xigmatek AIO

Here is a review of the Silverknight and the AIO:
http://www.anandtech.com/casecoolingpsus/showdoc.aspx?i=3032

and the Thermaltake model:
http://www.atruereview.com/atruereview/thermaltake_volcano/heat_exchanger.php

I guess I will go for the good and reliable TRUE heatsink. As every review of heatsink and watercooling, the TRUE heatsink beats 'em all. But I guess I'll try to find somekind of a freezer that could cool down the TRUE even more, by connecting some heatpipes to the TRUE (and the other Thermalright products) and the freezer.
I've drawn an example on my last post of what I mean by connecting the heatsinks on a freezer device.

Edit:
Freezer device on the heatsinks:


Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[jaibot18]

ummmmm, no offense but that is pretty dumb. it won't do anything. what chip are you ocing anyway

 

[phreejak]

ummmmm, no offense but that is pretty dumb. it won't do anything. what chip are you ocing anyway

Look man, these forums are for open discussion. How is someone going to know if an idea will work or if it is plausible if he/she doesn't discuss it with other people in the know? Your reply "no offense but that is pretty dumb" doesn't excuse it just because you said "no offense". Quite frankly, you added nothing to the topic and offerred nothing in support of why you felt that way.

No body else involved in this discussion behaved in such a rude manner.

If you can't be constructive and respectful then you aren't being helpful....

 

[xzec]

ummmmm, no offense but that is pretty dumb. it won't do anything. what chip are you ocing anyway

I don't think the solution isn't that bad. I think it'll work really good, since the heatsink will take all the heat, while the freezer device takes it away. But we'll see when I've built it all up. I'll make a thread with detailed instruction and pictures of what I've done, and the end results.

Here's my computer:
Chassis: Cooler Master Cosmos Silver
w/850w PSU, 2x12cm Fans, Aluminum
Power Supply: Thermaltake Toughpower 1500W Modular
8xSATA, ATX/EPS, 6/8xPCI-E, 20/24pin
Motherboard: Asus P5E3 Deluxe/WIFI-AP
X38,Socket-775 ,DDR3, ATX, 2xGbLAN, 2xPCI-Ex(2.0)x16
Processors: Intel Core%u2122 2 Quad Extreme QX9650 3GHz
LGA775,1333MHz,45nm, 12MB, BOXED w/fan
Graphics Card: Gainward GeForce 8800GTS 1GB GDDR3
PCI-Express 2.0, 730+/2100Mhz+, "GS-GLH"
RAM: Corsair Dominator TWIN3X 1800MHz DDR3
2GB, DHX ,(KIT) CL7-7-7-20
RAM: Corsair Dominator TWIN3X 1800MHz DDR3
2GB, DHX, XMP(Intel Extreme), CL7-7-7-20
Sound Card: Creative SB X-Fi Xtreme Gamer Fatal1ty Professional
64MB, EAX® ADVANCED HD
Harddrive (OS; x2 Raid 0): Western Digital Raptor
74GB SATA 16MB 10000RPM
Harddrive: Hitachi Deskstar 7K1000
1TB SATA2 32MB 7200RPM
External Harddrive: Western Digital Passport II
120GB, USB2.0, Black
Network Card: SMC EZ Card PCI 1000BaseT 32 bit Gigabit Ethernet
Monitor: Samsung 19" LCD Syncmaster 931C
TCO-99 1280x1024, 700:1, DVI-D, 2ms
DVD Rom: Samsung DVD-burner SN-S082 IDE Slim Black OEM
Headset: Creative Fatal1ty
Gamer headset w/mic 40mm Neodymium drivers, remote
Speakers: Logitech Z-5500 Speakers 5.1
THX,DTS, 5 Satelittes og Subwoofer 550W RMS
Mouse: Logitech G5 Laser Mouse 2007
Keyboard: Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard (Norwegian layout)

 

[xzec]

Look man, these forums are for open discussion. How is someone going to know if an idea will work or if it is plausible if he/she doesn't discuss it with other people in the know? Your reply "no offense but that is pretty dumb" doesn't excuse it just because you said "no offense". Quite frankly, you added nothing to the topic and offerred nothing in support of why you felt that way.

No body else involved in this discussion behaved in such a rude manner.

If you can't be constructive and respectful then you aren't being helpful....

Indeed, I fully agree. People should behave in mature way. And you've been in great help for me, but I don't know if it will be much efficient by trying to connect a freezer-like device to the heatsink. But that's what I thought I would go for, but wouldn't mind a second opinion .

Edit:
Those watercoolers you showed me was just what I was talking about, but they wasn't so good at cooling, like the TRUE is. That's why I thought I maybe would make my own watercooling system with Thermalright's heatsinks onto it. But as stated before, I don't think it would make much efficiency. So I came up with a new idea, by setting a freezer-like device onto the heatsinks. I've drawn an example of what I mean ...with my "über MS Pain skills" (hope you understand what I mean on the drawings).
Freezer device on the heatsinks:


Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[TonyL222]

It's "true" that a very good HSF like the TRUE will perform as good as or outperform cheap water cooling. But the TRUE is no match for a good water cooling setup. Even a kit like the Swiftech H20-220 Ultra will outperform the TRUE (CPU only). Now if you're talking about the kits from thermaltake, Zalman, and Koolance then I agree - stick with air. But if you're talking about a quality WC setup, then it will win hands down.

I would WC my CPU and GPU(s). I'd favor air on anything else. Watercooling those other components (NB, SB, Memory, etc) looks cool, but air cooling those components is cheaper and just as effective. Now of course if you have the money to spend and want the "bling" then go for it.

 

[xzec]

It's "true" that a very good HSF like the TRUE will perform as good as or outperform cheap water cooling. But the TRUE is no match for a good water cooling setup. Even a kit like the Swiftech H20-220 Ultra will outperform the TRUE (CPU only). Now if you're talking about the kits from thermaltake, Zalman, and Koolance then I agree - stick with air. But if you're talking about a quality WC setup, then it will win hands down.

I would WC my CPU and GPU(s). I'd favor air on anything else. Watercooling those other components (NB, SB, Memory, etc) looks cool, but air cooling those components is cheaper and just as effective. Now of course if you have the money to spend and want the "bling" then go for it.

Found a review 'bout the Swiftech H20-220 Ultra; Phoronix: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=341&num=1 - Looked like a really good watercooler, looking at the results. But when I saw the testbed, I wasn't that impressed. Well, he overclocked the P4 to almost 4.2 GHz, and still had the tempature at under 50 celcius on load. So maybe I'll use the Swiftech on only CPU, GPU and maybe the HDDs, and use heatsinks and fans on the rest. But I want to try my own cooling solution, by connecting a somekind of a freezer (and fans, ofc) on the heatsinks. Or maybe using watercooling on the CPU, GPU and HDDs and heatsink on the rest, and then connect the freezer to the watercooling and the heatsink.
I'm not sure yet, but I've gotta find a freezer-like device first.

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[phreejak]

I felt I had to say something about HDD cooling. Really, it's pretty much a novelty. Rather, it is not necessary to add HDD waterblocks to a cooling loop. As long as you have good airflow and the HDDs are not touching each other than simple air cooling will suffice. HDD waterblocks are insane flow killers. I'd stick with just cooling the CPU and GPU.

Basically, what you are looking for is a chiller.

http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=243

 

[xzec]

I felt I had to say something about HDD cooling. Really, it's pretty much a novelty. Rather, it is not necessary to add HDD waterblocks to a cooling loop. As long as you have good airflow and the HDDs are not touching each other than simple air cooling will suffice. HDD waterblocks are insane flow killers. I'd stick with just cooling the CPU and GPU.

Basically, what you are looking for is a chiller.

http://www.aquastealth.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=243

Yeah! That was just what I was looking for! "Freezer-like device", hehe, well, I meant a chiller. And thanks again for your help . But the Aquarium Chiller is only for watercooling? Is it possible to make it cool down heatsinks aswell?

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[phreejak]

If you are looking for some form of direct contact cooler, the ones that don't use water but use a hsf combo (to cool a TEC module that sits on the heatsink) are too weak for what you want I think

 

[xzec]

If you are looking for some form of direct contact cooler, the ones that don't use water but use a hsf combo (to cool a TEC module that sits on the heatsink) are too weak for what you want I think

Hm, so there will be almost no effect? But isn't there any freezer-device that can cool down the heatsinks alot?
But I guess I'll just use watercooling in some components and heatsinks on the others.

Kind regards,
Nymph.

 

[Hatman]

Thermoelectic? Phase cooling? Both go sub zero if powerful enough ao ull need to do lots of weird things but thatll cool it down.


Liquid is fine though. It wont go low temps but it doesnt ahrdly get warmer either if you have the right stuff. Just make sure you have good flow, make tubs as neat and short as possible and get a more powerful pump.