I thought 2 video cards generate a lot of heat (Water Cooling advice)

[Paul Benden]

I just added a third video card to my system. As I suspected, there is no way I am going to be happy with the heat it genreates unless I go with water cooling.

Based on this thread: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/232763-29-short-story-water-cooling-triple-cooled-pictures, I've decided that I would like to cool the three video cards and the CPU with one loop. However, I will be using Swiftech parts instead of an EXOS-2 (my original plan) because I want a stronger pump and better video blocks.

Since this will be my first attempt at water cooling, I'm looking for advice on what I'll need and suggestions on the best way to set this up.

Here's a pic of my case:

Please excuse the cable mess. I just pulled everything out the other day and haven't run anything properly yet.



Here is partial tentative list of the items I'm thinking of getting:

Current Hardware:
Case: Antec P190
http://www.antec.com/us/productDetails.php?ProdID=81900

CPU: Intel Core™2 Duo Processor E6850 3.00GHz

Video: 3 x e-GeForce 8800 GTX

Ram: CRUCIAL BallistiX 2GB PC2-8500 Kit (4 x 1GB)

Motherboard: Asus Striker II Formula (780I)


Now the questions and advice:

1. I'm thinking of using a 3 fan rad and a single loop. Should I consider the other options? The other things I can think of would include multiple rads (probably smaller ones?) and/or splitting the loop and cooling 2 video cards and one card and the cpu seperately. Thoughts?

2. What should I be ordering in terms of tubing, connectors, fittings, clamps etc? I would like it to be easy to drain if needed. I'm not sure on exactly what and how much I should order. Keeping everything internal would be nice but I have no problem having rads or things outside of the case. I definitely don't want to order too much stuff, but I don't want to be missing a few crutial parts as well.

3. How about a reservoir? What size should I get? I've got two free drive bays so should I fill it up with a double drive bay reservoir? What's the reasoning behind the various sizes? Is bigger better and why?

4. Basic setup.. My main concern is the fact that the power supplies and drives are at the bottom of the case. Initially I was thinking of putting the reservoir and pump on the right side of the case above the drives. However, I'm worried about losing the drives (and data) if things go bad. I could move the drives by putting two in the front middle of (the big empty space) and putting the other two in the 5.25 drive bays. That would then let me empty out drives and fan from the bottom of the case. My question is would it be in my best interest to do this? In the event of things going bad would the drives being above the pump and reservoir likely save them from frying? Keep in mind that the power supply will still be at the bottom. Should I go through the trouble or should I just backup everything to an external drive because I'd be screwed either way? I'm not worried about hardware failure nearly as much as I am about data loss.

5. Where should I put the rad? I was thinking maybe at the top of the case where the two fans presently exhaust, but there might not be enough room. Any other thoughts? I would consider mounting it outside of the case (on top). Is that a good idea or should I do something else?



I'll leave it at this. I would appreciate any advice and suggestions to be had. Please note that I already own the system and 3 videocards so I see no point in debating whether or not I should get 3 cards. I just need to know the best way to deal with cooling them now that I have them. If you need any further information, please let me know. I plan to order everything in the next week or two (the sooner the better).

In parting, I wanted to say that my main goal is to reduce the heat generated by my system to a reasonable level (presently the cards are 80 degrees at idle). If I can get them into the mid 50's I would be happy. That being said, if I can get everything low enough without going crazy, I would love to be able to overclock things. That's not a priority though. Thanks.

 

[TonyL222]

Two separate loops - one with two GPUs and one with a CPU/GPU - would definitely be better. That means six fans, two rads (360s), two pumps, and two res/Ts. I would suggest you go with Ts with fillports to save space and give you a quick means to drain your loops. You also can put your drive bays to other uses.

I put together a parts list from www.jab-tech.com. Prices for most parts are a little cheaper than yours.

Product Price Quantity Subtotal
SKU9757. Swiftech MCW60-R VGA cooler $43.90 $131.70 (QTY 3)
SKU3656. Swiftech MC8800 Kit $34.95 $104.85 (QTY 3)
SKU3667. D-tek FuZion CPU Water Block $59.95 $59.95
SKU4048. Dtek FuZion Intel 775 Pro-M... $11.95 $11.95
SKU3956. D-Tek FuZion Accelerator No... $6.99 $6.99
SKU5252. Swiftech MCP655™ 12 VDC Pump $79.95 $159.90 (QTY 2)
SKU6526. Black Ice GT stealth 360 - ... $54.95 $109.90 (QTY 2, you can sub the MCR360s)
SKU_3079. Masterkleer Tubing 7/16" ID... $0.49 $7.35 (QTY 15)
SKU993310. Plastic Tubing Clamps - Black $0.40 $9.60 (QTY 24)
SKU5605. YATE LOON 120mm Case Fan - ... $3.15 $18.90 (QTY 6)
SKU1738. Primochill Liquid Utopia - ... $9.95 $29.85 (QTY 3)
SKU7203. Dangerden Fillport - Silver $11.95 $23.90 (QTY 2)
SKU3519. 1/2"T Line for 1/2" ID Tubi... $0.99 $1.98 (QTY 2)
SKU3338. Swiftech RadBox MCB-120 Rev... $17.95 $35.90 (QTY 2)
Summary: *$712.72 **$712.72

I'd switch the Apogee GTX for a Fuzion, and the Stealth 2s for the MCW60-Rs. There's questions about the aluminum tops in the GTX and the Stealths and the possibility of galvanic corrosion, so it's just safe to avoid the whole issue. I include BI rads, but the Swiftech MCR360s would do well, too. Newegg has those for about $45.

I included 15' of 7/16" ID tubing, clamps, Ts and fillports. I also included additives to be mixed with Distilled water. Liquid Utopia is and all-in-one additive. It would be cool to get different colors for your two loops.

Mounting the two rads might be a challenge. I included two rad boxes that could be used to mount on on the back and one on top. There are other possibilities.

 

[Paul Benden]

Sounds just about right. I was expecting to spend about $800 and your suggestions come in below that. I had wanted to avoid 2 seperate loops with 2 pumps, but it's definitely cheaper than I expected.

I take it then that there isn't an actual need for a reservoir? I like the idea of no reservoirs because they I could easily move my hard drives higher in the case and put two pumps in the bottom.

Does anyone else have suggestions or comments about mine or Tony's suggested setups?

 

[TonyL222]

Paul, I updated my original post so take another look. I'd welcome a look/comments from others just to make sure I didn't forget anything.

No, you don't need a res if you use a T. The downside of a T is that bleeding (getting the excess air out) takes longer - many hours (possibly a day, instead of a couple of hors with a res).

NOTE: Correct the word in BOLD

 

[Evilonigiri]

Just wondering, did you increase the fan speeds of the 8800GTXs by any chance? Or is it impossible to do so, considering it's 3 way SLI?

 

[Paul Benden]

I haven't put any effort into trying to cool the existing setup with fans. My reasoning is the fact that there is no room for the fans to pull air in to cool the cards.

I do have options for fan cooling. The side has a 200mm fan and I can put two fans in front of the cards (one at the front of the case and one right in the middle). However, I still feel that I wouldn't get enough benifit from the fans to justify even trying. The video card fans wouldn't likely be able to pull in enough air to show any benefit from any added fans. I guess I could get different coolers for the cards themselves, but why bother when water cooling has a high probability of giving amazing results and I'm willing to spend the money. I've been dealing with heat issues for years now. This isn't my first 3 card system I had 3 video cards back in the 3dfx days. I'm sick of having to worry about how hot my video cards are.

I actually ordered the water cooling parts that Tony suggested. I'm just making room in my case now for when everything arrives. I'll post pictures and details later.

 

[Paul Benden]

Here's the parts I've ordered

Swiftech MCW60-R VGA cooler
3 x $43.90 = $131.70

Swiftech MC8800 Kit
3 x $34.95 = $104.85

D-tek FuZion CPU Water Block Options:Barb: 1/2"
1 x $59.95 = $59.95

D-Tek FuZion Accelerator Nozzle Kit
1 x $6.99 = $6.99

Dtek FuZion Intel 775 Pro-Mount set
1 x $11.95 = $11.95

Swiftech MCP655™ 12 VDC Pump
2 x $79.95 = $159.90

Black Ice GT stealth 360 - Black Options:Barb: 1/2" Chrome Fittings
2 x $54.95 = $109.90

Masterkleer Tubing 7/16" ID 5/8" OD
20 x $0.49 = $9.80

Plastic Tubing Clamps - Black Options:size: Small Size (D)
30 x $0.40 = $12.00

YATE LOON 120mm Case Fan - D12SM-12 - Medium Speed
6 x $3.15 = $18.90

Primochill Liquid Utopia - Blood Red
2 x $9.95 = $19.90

Primochill Liquid Utopia - Purple
2 x $9.95 = $19.90

Dangerden Fillport - Silver Options:Barb: 1/2"
2 x $11.95 = $23.90

1/2"T Line for 1/2" ID Tubing - Clear
2 x $0.99 = $1.98

Swiftech RadBox MCB-120 Revision 2 - Black
2 x $17.95 = $35.90

Arctic Silver 5 thermal compound - 12g
1 x $12.99 = $12.99

Subtotal: $740.51
Shipping: $79.00
Total: $819.51

The only thing I think I missed is 4 quick connect fittings so that I can install everything after testing without needing to re-run lines. It will aslo make taking things apart much easier. I'm also going to buy the single L brackets for my 3 video cards so that I can run some of my tubing out through the back without having to cut any holes into my case.

 

[TonyL222]

I'm jealous, dude!!! Looks like you'll have a KickAss system.

 

[Paul Benden]

Update:

I have ordered a few more parts:

3 x Single Slot GeForce Bracket(BKT-VD001K) x 9.99
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=207

and

3 x 6" SATA II Cable - Clear Silver GC6ATASM = $7.47
3 x 10" SATA II Cable - Clear Silver GC10ATASM = $8.85
1 x 10" single device IDE cable **UV RED** = $2.99

I figure the smaller cables will go a long way towards cleaning up my cable mess. The ones I have are 8" to 12" too long.

Here's what I've done so far to get ready for the water cooling equipment:

I moved the 3rd power supply from the bottom 5.25" slot to just below the cd-rom. I then moved all four hard drives from the bottom of the case up into the front center and top of the case. I used brackets to mount two of the drives in 5.25" bays. Finally I removed the fan in the bottom center of the case to the front center of the case. It now blows directly on my two mirrored drives in the front of the case.

Now that I've got the drives moved, I can put the pumps at the bottom right side of the case. As you can see, I've got a convinient hole in that chamber to run the water lines. I also have to ports at the back of the case for water lines. The holes are 30 mm so I hope I can manage two lines per hole. However, now that I'm getting the single L brackets for the video cards, I've got lots of options for getting stuff in and out of my case.

I was originally going to get some quick disconnect nozzles from Koolance, but I decided against it. Mainly because I would need at least 4 sets and with shipping it would probably cost me close to $100. I've decided that I'm just going to build the two water loops in place in my system. I'm going to run them in place without any power to the computer for testing purposes. If I decide that I really want quick disconnect nozzles, I can always and them in later.

 

[Paul Benden]

The stuff just arrived!!

Here's the box and contents..

I'll be working on it this weekend. I'll post pics and results once I'm done.

 

[TonyL222]

Looking forward to seeing the pics!!!!

 

[Paul Benden]

Update:

As expected, I've hit a few snags in my setup..

1. I couldn't run the tubing the way I wanted so I needed to drill some holes in the case. This problem has been resolved.

2. The intake and output on my cpu block are so close together that I can't put my plastic tube clamps on both. I clamped down my intake only to find that I had no room to clamp down the output. I'm thinking of trying to get some of those metal clamps instead. I think I can get some good ones at a local hardware store. I would like to avoid having to order them if possible.

3. I have the same issue with the video card blocks. The plastic clamps are way too big to be used. Metal ones will likely solve this problem.

4. I'm having a hard time getting the tubing onto the video card blacks. Due to the memory heatsinks, it's a really tight fit. I have removed the heatsinks and I'm going to try again tonight. I think I'm going to try and hook up most of the tubing outside of the case.

5. Due to various reasons (which I'm not going to get into), I have destroyed the thermal pads on most of my video card memory heatsinks. At present I think I'm going to pull them all off and use Artic Silver Alumina Thermal Adhesive on all of them (mainly because I can get it locally). I just need to make sure that it's the right thing to do.

I'm hoping that I can get everything working. If not, I'm prepared to consider getting the Koolance VID-282 blocks instead of my current blocks. They may not be as good and I would be cooling 3 items on one loop (with no rad in between), but they would be a lot easier to setup. When I hit the brick wall last night, I was ready to order the koolance blocks first thing this morning. After sleeping on it, I'm going to give my existing blocks another try.

 

[Evilonigiri]

For #5, I don't there's any issues with using thermal paste, but you should use non conductive paste just to be on the safe side.

Good luck.

 

[TonyL222]

1. Most of us end up drilling holes in the case. If they case has holes, it seems they are never where you want them and/or aren't wide enough.

2. I had the same issue but was able to have attach them slightly staggered - one clamp all the way down touching the base of the barb and the other slightly higher. If that doesn't work, use small zip ties. The small ones are easier to pull tightly. I'f double them up on each barb. Worm clams might work, too.

3. same

5. Different GPU block, but I had a hard time getting the heat sinks to stick. I cleaned things off pretty good with Arctic Clean and they still wouldn't stick. I ended up sticking a toothpick down the tube opening of superglue, rubbing the trace of superglue on the heat sinks, and attaching it to the memory. Hasn't come lose yet

 

[Paul Benden]

For #5, super glue caused my problem. I had the exact same issue even after cleaning so I used glue. I then decided to remove the heatsinks which destroyed most of my pads because I used too much crazy glue.

Now I'm in a situation where I have to put the heatsinks back on but most of the thermal pads are destroyed. Ideally I would like to use just Artic Silver 5, but it's not an adhesive. I'm a little scared about using the Artic Silver Adhesive because it's pretty much a permanent thing. Once I stick them on, they're not coming off.

 

[TonyL222]

For #5, super glue caused my problem. I had the exact same issue even after cleaning so I used glue. I then decided to remove the heatsinks which destroyed most of my pads because I used too much crazy glue.

Aw man!!! that's why I said a "trace" of superglue."

 

[Paul Benden]

Update:

Ok, here's what I've got so far..

The tubing goes up from the pump and out of the case. It connects to the top radiator. From there is goes back into the case to the cpu->video card and then it will go back into the pump (the last tube isn't connected yet).

Where should I put the fill port? My initial intention was to put it in between the video card and the pump. However, based on what I've got now, it looks like that would be a tight fit. Would it be horrible if I put it on the nice long easily accessible tube coming out of the pump (the one that goes outside of the case)? I believe it's not ideal because the air bubbles would go through the pump first. Should I avoid doing this because of that? The second loop will have a similar setup. If it helps, my plan is to fill the system while the computer is laying flat on its side.

My other issue is simply the amount of tubing that is going to be around the video cards. I initialy tried to get the second loops two video cards in the bottom two slots so that I would have an easier time of getting them out. However, due to the fact that I'm having a hard time convincing my tubing to make such a sharp turn (from video card to video card), it looks like I'm going to need to put the second loops cads in the top and bottom slots. This means that the card attached to the CPU will be right in the middle. I can obviously make it all fit, but taking cards out will be an absolute nightmare.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[phreejak]

Interesting orientation for the various parts in your cooling loop...

Rule of the thumb, if using a reservoir it should always come before the pump and at a position above it somewhere. The reason for this is that pumps are made to push coolant through a loop, not pull it, so it has to rely on gravity for that initial priming. It will just hiccup if it has air bubbles. As long as it has some coolant it will be okay. Eventually, when you have the whole loop filled it will be fine.

Also, I find that you put the rad between the CPU and the pump interesting. You are robbing the cpu waterblock of the best flowrate that comes out of the pump initially. When the coolant hits the rad - even if it is a dual pass rad - it is still going to affect the flowrate.

The rad in the back, the one that is upside down, be very mindful of trapped air bubble becaus of the way you have it set.Air bubbles rising to the top in the way you have it oriented will be difficult to remove once you have the whole loop set and functioning so - if you are able - twist the case at angles while the coolant is running. It is going to be a &%#*@ for you to do but trapped air in a rad affects the rads ability to function and will affect the flowrate as well. Single pass rads feed coolant through tubes all at the same time which is why they are flowrate killers whereas dullpass rads (like those in your cooling loop), are designed to follow a single - albiet elongated - path go down one side and up the other and air trapped anywhere there will affect the flow.

 

[Paul Benden]

Eurika!

I would highly recommend sleeping on the problem when ever you have an issue while setting up a water loop..

I'm going to do my second loop like this:

Pump -> video card -> rad -> video card -> pump

This will let me do the second loop without having a really tight bend in the tubing and it will be much easier to remove the video cards if needed. I can even put the video card on the CPU loop in the top slot.

 

[TonyL222]

Interesting orientation for the various parts in your cooling loop...

Rule of the thumb, if using a reservoir it should always come before the pump and at a position above it somewhere. The reason for this is that pumps are made to push coolant through a loop, not pull it, so it has to rely on gravity for that initial priming. It will just hiccup if it has air bubbles. As long as it has some coolant it will be okay. Eventually, when you have the whole loop filled it will be fine.

Agreed. since you are using Ts instead of reservoirs, It would still be ideal to have the T just ahead of the pump inlet.

Also, I find that you put the rad between the CPU and the pump interesting. You are robbing the cpu waterblock of the best flowrate that comes out of the pump initially. When the coolant hits the rad - even if it is a dual pass rad - it is still going to affect the flowrate.

We'll have to disagree on this one. I'm of the camp that believes that loop order makes no real impact on performance. But more specifically, pump pressure on a block has no bearing on cooling performance. That has been tested and reported on by Martin of Martin's liquid labs on several occassions. According to Martin, the key is flow rate and it doesn't matter if the flow is coming directly from the pump or not. Optimum flow rate is 1-1.5GPM. Less is bad and more does not significantly improve cooling. You can estimate your flow rate by using Martin's Flow Rate Estimator:

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/MartinsFlowRateEstimator.html

The rad in the back, the one that is upside down, be very mindful of trapped air bubble becaus of the way you have it set.Air bubbles rising to the top in the way you have it oriented will be difficult to remove once you have the whole loop set and functioning so - if you are able - twist the case at angles while the coolant is running. It is going to be a &%#*@ for you to do but trapped air in a rad affects the rads ability to function and will affect the flowrate as well. Single pass rads feed coolant through tubes all at the same time which is why they are flowrate killers whereas dullpass rads (like those in your cooling loop), are designed to follow a single - albiet elongated - path go down one side and up the other and air trapped anywhere there will affect the flow.

Yep the rad orientation and the use of Ts will make bleeding take longer. There's nothing wrong with that. You just have to be patient. I don't have any experience with tri-SLI, but your solution to tubing sounds like a good one. Here's a thought, though. Can the blocks on the top and bottom cards (ur loop 1) be turned 90 degrees so that the barbs face the back of the cards? That way you could loop the tubing around the back of each card instead of over the top of each card. Make sense?

 

[Paul Benden]

Almost there (kind of)..

I finished off loop 1 today and filled it up and turned it on..

Here it is while it's running:

Here it is when it's turned off:

I'm going to take a wild guess amd say that I turned it on with way too much air in the lines. The water was clear until I turned on the pump and it foamed up right away. The distilled water also foamed a little when I dumped in the Liquid Utopia so I assume that has something to do with it.

What do I do at this point?

 

[Paul Benden]

Never mind. After leaving everything off for a while the little foamy air bubbles started joining together and getting much bigger. It's obvious that they just need to be drained.

I must admit that trying to rotate an extremely heavy case with a rad on the top of it isn't much fun... However, I'm making progress. At least there is no major / obvious leaks. Everything seems good so far.

 

[phreejak]

I'll tell you what I did to help me with setting up a cooling loop in a rig: I have a midrange PSU that I have fixed to run without being plugged into a motherboard. I use it to test various parts of amy rig when I am setting it up - lighting looks, fan orientation watercooling, etc. I hook my pump to it when I have set up what I think is my final loop and fill the loop with as much coolant as I can. I turn it on and let the coolant circulate until it begins to foam and then I turn the PSU off. I fill the reservoir to the top and repeat the process until no more bubbles in the loop. Then, I just unhook the PSU and put it away.

 

[TonyL222]

I HIGHLY recommend you follow phreejak's method, or use a spare PSU if you have one. DO NOT hook up your system, mobo and other components until you've leak tested. If only one PSU, disconnect the 24 pin connector from the mobo and disconnect all other components except the pump (and the rad fans if you like). Place paper towels under all barbs and blocks. Jump start the PSU and start up the pump and let'er run for even up to 24 hrs.

I like to combine my leak testing with bleeding. It never made much sense to me to leak test with components outside the case, and then disconnect the components to put back into the case. With the method above your system is protected in case there is a leak, and you're getting the loop bled at the same time. If there is a leak and your mobo or other componets gets wet, no worries. Just wipe up the excess, maybe use some compressed air, and maybe even put a house fan on it to dry up all moisture.

In filling the loop you know you won't be able to fill it completely through the entire system. The rad and blocks will have air pockets. Fill it up as much as you can. Then, flip the power switch on your PSU. Once the input tube gets close to dry (maybe a sec), flip the power off and refill. Repeat this until the fill port stops dropping to empty. You DO NOT want your pump to run dry even for a short amount of time. Now just let'er run with the fill port open to bleed - maybe top it off with more fluid. I would have mixed the Utopia with the water before adding to the loop.

 

[Paul Benden]

I HIGHLY recommend you follow phreejak's method, or use a spare PSU if you have one. DO NOT hook up your system, mobo and other components until you've leak tested. If only one PSU, disconnect the 24 pin connector from the mobo and disconnect all other components except the pump (and the rad fans if you like). Place paper towels under all barbs and blocks. Jump start the PSU and start up the pump and let'er run for even up to 24 hrs.

I like to combine my leak testing with bleeding. It never made much sense to me to leak test with components outside the case, and then disconnect the components to put back into the case. With the method above your system is protected in case there is a leak, and you're getting the loop bled at the same time. If there is a leak and your mobo or other componets gets wet, no worries. Just wipe up the excess, maybe use some compressed air, and maybe even put a house fan on it to dry up all moisture.

In filling the loop you know you won't be able to fill it completely through the entire system. The rad and blocks will have air pockets. Fill it up as much as you can. Then, flip the power switch on your PSU. Once the input tube gets close to dry (maybe a sec), flip the power off and refill. Repeat this until the fill port stops dropping to empty. You DO NOT want your pump to run dry even for a short amount of time. Now just let'er run with the fill port open to bleed - maybe top it off with more fluid. I would have mixed the Utopia with the water before adding to the loop.

I pretty much did all of this. I am not running power through my computer. I have a second power supply which is powering the pump and Rad fans only. There's no issues there. I had to build the loop in place because of the amount of holes that I need to run tubing through. I couldn't build the loop outside of the case. I have removed the hard drives and nothing is getting power on the board. I would have removed my case PSU too, but I won't be able to put it back in the case once the tubing is run (they use the same hole the PSU is install edthrough).

At present I've have gotten a good portion of the air out of the loop (since my pictures above). When I get home I figure I've got about another hour of rotating my case around to get the rest of the air out and then I can turn the pump back on and let ot leak test until tomorrow night.

Once the leak test if finished I'm going to power the system up to confirm that my CPU and videocard are working and are cool. After that, I'll put in the other two video cards and build the second loop. I figure it's better to test the first loop (with power) just in case I've messed up putting on the water blocks and they're not cooling properly.