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Why no good nVidia next gen GPU info from Tom's?

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December 4, 2007 7:40:13 PM

How about Tom's journalists (I use that term loosely) report on something more useful than Apple bashing? Maybe actually do some detective work and find out more specifics about nVidia's next gen graphics hardware, it’s availability, it’s performance, and of course it’s retail price tag. So far, details have been sketchy at best and nothing solid provided.

It would be refreshing to see Tom’s writers stop going after Apple’s OS X 10.5 (Leopard) – which has already been patched (a few days after release) – and where is the SP1 for Vista again one year later – still in Beta and how many issues does Vista have (about 1000:1)?

I realize that means tom’s writers have to actually do some work (and work with their contacts “inside”) – but I would find nVidia GPU information a lot more interesting than uninformed and biased articles (as of late) about Apple.

So how about it Tom?
December 4, 2007 7:56:56 PM

What are you planning on gaming on your Mac? C'mon.
December 4, 2007 7:57:31 PM

Perhaps Ethics? Fear of Lawsuits?

Attempting to obtain and publish NDA material is not the best way to maintain official contacts with companies.
Related resources
December 4, 2007 8:01:03 PM

Leopard has BSOD, omg!

Hehe, I'm just messing with you. All jokes aside, the articles about Apple do seem to be really hateful. Like the person writing them has been personally attacked or damaged in some way by Apple. I think it would be better for diplomatic purposes to convey a neutral viewpoint, which could also bring more readers. Just my $0.02. Although, those stupid MAC commercials get on my nerves. If they're so much better, why do they have to tell everyone how much better they are?

Anyways, lets hear about some new GPUs! (Also, I vote that you (Tom's) remove the 8800GTS 320MB and the 8600 GT graphics card from the holiday buyers guide. The 8600 is plain terrible and the 8800GTS is outdated when compared to the 8800GT or the new version of the GTS coming out soon.)
December 4, 2007 8:11:56 PM

Quote:
those stupid MAC commercials get on my nerves


I second that...........
December 4, 2007 8:16:02 PM

rgeist554 said:
Although, those stupid MAC commercials get on my nerves. If they're so much better, why do they have to tell everyone how much better they are?


+1
Seriously, I'd rather be the PC, he gets all the funny lines. Mac is just a smug little @$$hole.

Quote:
I vote that you (Tom's) remove the 8800GTS 320MB and the 8600 GT graphics card from the holiday buyers guide.


+1

December 4, 2007 8:21:02 PM

Quote:
remove the 8800GTS 320MB and the 8600 GT graphics card from the holiday buyers guide.


And put what in there place?
December 4, 2007 8:23:15 PM

Don't know what Tom's writers/journalist have against Apple, but I come here to find out about new hardware -- specifically the next gen nVidia card.

I do game on my Mac, but no where near as much as I game on a dedicated gaming PC. My Mac's ATI X1900XT 512MB actually works as good in DX9 titles are my old 2900XT 1GB cards did. But lets not start this thread again as 90% who will jump in don't even know that ATI X1900XT 512MB is even in a MacPro, another 50% will not even know Mac parts are all Intel including the CPU, and 95% will know nothing about "bootcamp" which makes a Mac a PC.

Point being, there are many ways to get information without having to be responsible for NDA's. There is "leaked" information and numerous other investigative means -- let them sue tom's if they like, but it sure would be hard for nVidia to claim any damages from such info (not like there currently is any real competition at the high end).

Some of the Mac commercials are funny, but most are pretty lame. Favorite Mac commercials:

1. Vista Security -- Allow or disallow
2. One with 4 guys looking sick on a computer cart
3. Ask not what Vista can do for you, ask what you can buy for Vista

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

Why do religious people need to go door to door?

I think you'll find the Vista ad campaign considerably more annoying -- WOW! is that it?
December 4, 2007 8:24:29 PM

Is there any information to be had? I hope Toms stays away from rumor, and stays legit (nda's included) Id love to see Toms get "the" scoop also, but only one or none get that, so lets be realistic here.Sometimes ndas are allowed to be slightly broken by sites, and again Id love to see that happen, but those are rare. Obviously, the next gen of gfx cards are going to be something better/different, and since we know as little about ATI as we do nVidia, I can only come to the conclusion that obviously neither want to tip their prospective hats at this time. Bits will leak with time, tho it seems like maybe 2 months away, so its still too early
December 4, 2007 8:27:45 PM

rgeist554 said:
The 8600 is plain terrible and the 8800GTS is outdated when compared to the 8800GT or the new version of the GTS coming out soon.)

+1 for your mac commercial bashing, they are really annoying.
the 8600GT's aren't that bad, as long as they dont go over $120 at most, NO midrange card can play the games that were released at the same time at higher than medium settings and SXGA res.
They do need to remove the GTS though, it's outperformed now.
December 4, 2007 8:33:07 PM

Quote:
And put what in there place?


I'd say the 8800GT & 3870HD take the 8800GTS 320MB place and for the 8600 put the 3850HD. You really can't beat the 3850 when you compare it to the 8800GTS 320MB. The 3850HD costs $150-180 vs. $300-400 for the GTS 320MB, and they are both very close in terms of performance. The 8800GT's & 3870's are still great cards even though their price has been inflated.

Quote:
the 8600GT's aren't that bad, as long as they dont go over $120 at most, NO midrange card can play the games that were released at the same time at higher than medium settings and SXGA res.
Yeah, I guess I was a little harsh saying it was terrible. It's still decent, but there is better now. :) 
December 4, 2007 8:34:39 PM

Quote:
The 3850HD costs $150-180


Where did you find the 3850 for $150? Link please!
December 4, 2007 8:36:27 PM

ATI released their 2900 series and it wasn't til Cat 7.11 that the card actually worked reasonably well. Feel sorry for any 3870 owners.

It seems these days, the cards are released with the most primitive of driver support and then next 6-12 months consist of driver updates.

Come on tom's go dig, screw the lawyers.

Here is a thought, Intel to produce a truely competitive GPU? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, why not?

Reasons:
1. ATI/AMD is fighting for the medium to low end
2. nVidia and Intel don't seem to get along with this SLI/Chipset BS
3. Intel's got the fab that nVidia wishes they had
4. Intel could easily ramp up the graphics resources/talent they need to compete (maybe not in 2008, but by 2009)

December 4, 2007 8:37:10 PM

As a journalist here at Tom's (and I use the term loosely), I think you must not be familiar with something called an 'NDA'... or, de-acronymized, a "Non Disclosure Agreement".

These prevent us from speaking about un-announced hardware if we want to be included in the process of getting info about them and test samples, etc. Of course, there are sites like TheInquirer that don't sign NDAs as a rule, the downside being the information they post is alot closer to speculation that what we do. But they have their place, just like we have ours.


As far as the separate issue you seem to have - 'Apple bashing' - well, I wouldn't personally call it Apple bashing as I see our recent articles as an interesting source of un-biased information about Leopard and Apple's PR policy that results in somewhat draconian forum moderation. You, of course, are welcome to your own interpretation like everybody else, but in the same vein I think we are also entitled to ours.

But that has very little to do with Geforces and NDAs, I reckon.

I must say however, we've published some unfavorable stuff about Vista in the past, and I don't know if I missed it but I don't remember you complaining about our 'Microsoft Bashing'... I mean, that'd be the un-biased thing to do, right? :D 
December 4, 2007 8:42:20 PM

V8VENOM said:
Don't know what Tom's writers/journalist have against Apple


They don't have "anything" agains apple, apple just plains suck, from the iPod to the iPhone all the way to iSteve iJobs it sucks, shady bussines model, overpriced underperforming hardware and freaky obnoxious ads it sucks.

BTW, they can't report on new nVidia cards because 1.- Tom's doesn't spread rumors (at least not that much) 2.- if they had any real info nVidia would NDA them to hell just to not let ATI (AMD) now when and where the next punch is coming.
December 4, 2007 8:47:53 PM

TheInquirer has been correct more times that it has been wrong.

Yes I know NDA's -- don't sign them or negotiate with nVidia (this is done all the time). Can you trust anything on the internet, not really, let the reader decide the quality of source, Tom's just need to report what they find out -- that's what the media is supposed to do.

And Microsoft's PR policy is better than Apples? Didn't see you jumping on Vista's problems that still exist a year after it's release? It's biased reporting which always leads to a money trail (err...leverage) somewhere.

December 4, 2007 8:49:29 PM

Microsoft gives us nothing, which is the same thing Apple gives us.

If you didn't see us complaining about Vista, you didn't read our Vista articles...
December 4, 2007 8:50:38 PM

yeah, AMD/ATI are a big threat -- I can see nVidia shaking in their boots

is "suck" your technical term

tom's selective reporting is no good for anyone

And if tom's is signing NDA (agreements), why would we trust what you report anyway -- that really is asking the wolf

Vista has brought me significant slowdowns in most games and ton of Google searching for solutions (sometimes none found). The effort to get from A to B in Vista is 10X that of OS X.

Apple has brought me Final Cut Studio 2 and Shake 4.1 which are truely amazing tools that function so much better than anything I've done on a PC.
December 4, 2007 8:57:21 PM

V8VENOM said:

tom's selective reporting is no good for anyone


Conversely, selective reading might work well for someone who likes harboring a particular bias.


V8VENOM said:

And if tom's is signing NDA (agreements), why would we trust what you report anyway -- that really is asking the wolf


Heheh. Well, I certainly support your right to excersise that opinion by boycotting all publishers who sign NDAs. :) 
December 4, 2007 8:57:26 PM

I dont follow your logic here, signing NDA's is simply to keep information AWAY from publication UNTIL the stated release date. Whats NOT to trust? Oh btw, ATI has some good things coming their way and has people sign NDA's also
December 4, 2007 8:58:52 PM

Exactly, that's why we see very few negative comments about product reviews -- all done with a positive spin rather than telling it like it is.

Except Apple, cause I guess you don't need to sign NDA when you report on what your read from the Apple Support site.
December 4, 2007 8:59:20 PM

Quote:
Conversely, selective reading might work well for someone who likes harboring a particular bias.
rofl. I give one of my +1's to cleeve.
December 4, 2007 9:04:04 PM

Quote:
The 8600 is plain terrible and the 8800GTS is outdated when compared to the 8800GT or the new version of the GTS coming out soon.)
the 8600HY runs fine for the price. Even my mobile version runs all the new games pretty decently, not to mention it overclocks well.
December 4, 2007 9:05:37 PM

What we have is several products, each with their own capabilities/failures. Theyre put up against each other (ATI/nVidia) and shown whos superior/inferior. If thats not good then I dont know and still dont know where youre going with this. Anyone remember/forget the R600 debut?
December 4, 2007 9:11:17 PM

We would all love to read about the future tech that is coming out. Does anybody know if "tom" has reviewed it or not? Only "tom" knows that. I want them to stay legal and stay in good favors with all the hardware vendors. So if that means I have to wait for "tom" to do his work, then that is fine by me.

As for Vista, the only issues I have had with it is non Microsoft related issues. Things they are not responsible for like if a game will be patched or will the hardware vendors stop sitting on the thumbs and make good drivers.

The problem with Apple is... and I come from an IT standpoint, the lack of troubleshooting on one. I hate working on a Mac when it is broken. You cannot do anything and forget about fixing it. I have found it easier to either just do a reinstall, throw it away, or just leave it alone and hope it goes away.
December 4, 2007 9:14:27 PM

V8VENOM said:
Exactly, that's why we see very few negative comments about product reviews -- all done with a positive spin rather than telling it like it is.


OK, did a search for Tom's and vista on google. Two notable articles:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page...

"Windows Vista clearly is not a great new performer when it comes to executing single applications at maximum speed... We also found some programs that refused to work, and others that seem to cause problems at first but eventually ran properly... There are some programs that showed deeply disappointing performance... Both benchmarks finished much quicker under Windows XP. There aren't newer versions available, and we don't see immediate solutions to this issue."

Looks pretty negative to me. Then looked at the one we did on Vista Networking:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30163/89/

"What if you were granted the gift of human flight in exchange for possesing the average land speed of a duckbill platypus? Would you take it? Such is the riddle proposed by Microsoft...
...the benefits you'll see in a mixed Vista/XP environment are minimal. In fact, you're going to run into quite a few annoyances because of the way security and permissions are handled in Vista vs. XP. "


I don't know, neither of those articles seem particularly gushy towards Microsoft. In fact, definitely left me with a negative impression. Kind of odd behavior for a publication you've accused of being biased towards Vista, huh?

Then again, I don't think I like Vista much. But maybe I've been brainwashed to have a bias that's making it difficult for me to see the brutal truth: we're a bunch of Microsoft-pimping Apple haters.

All this time I thought we were calling it as we saw it - that we were telling the public about a few Leopard/Apple PR problems. In V8VENOM's opinion, I guess those problems either don't exist or shouldn't be spoken out loud. I guess the public can decide who'se biased.
December 4, 2007 9:25:43 PM

cleeve said:
OK, did a search for Tom's and vista on google. Two articles at the top:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page...

"Windows Vista clearly is not a great new performer when it comes to executing single applications at maximum speed... We also found some programs that refused to work, and others that seem to cause problems at first but eventually ran properly... There are some programs that showed deeply disappointing performance... Both benchmarks finished much quicker under Windows XP. There aren't newer versions available, and we don't see immediate solutions to this issue."

Looks pretty negative to me. Then looked at the one we did on Vista Networking:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30163/89/

"What if you were granted the gift of human flight in exchange for possesing the average land speed of a duckbill platypus? Would you take it? Such is the riddle proposed by Microsoft...
...the benefits you'll see in a mixed Vista/XP environment are minimal. In fact, you're going to run into quite a few annoyances because of the way security and permissions are handled in Vista vs. XP. "


I don't know, neither of those articles seem particularly gushy towards Microsoft. In fact, definitely left me with a negative impression. Kind of odd behavior for a publication you've accused of being biased towards Vista, huh?

Then again, I don't think I like Vista much. But maybe I've been brainwashed to have a bias that's making it difficult for me to see the brutal truth: we're a bunch of Microsoft-pimping Apple haters.

All this time I thought we were calling it as we saw it, but you never know. :D 


I think you are falsely applying logic and facts to somebody who does not want them.
He has already stated that he just wants some news about the next Gen cards.
It does not matter if it's factual or not.

But from what I have heard, the Next Gen NVIDIA cards will be release on Feb. 30th 2008.
There will be a one day sale direct from NVIDIA for 75% off List Price.

Starting on March First they will be released for their std list price of $99
The 32nm manufacturing process will allow for these low costs.
They expect to have 5x the Pixel Fill Rate of the Current 8800GT cards.
The small manufacturing process will drop power usage to about 15w idle and 45w under load.

December 4, 2007 9:26:53 PM

Cleeve,

Quote:
There is a lot of CPU performance available today! We've got really fast dual core processors, and even faster quad cores will hit the market by the middle of the year. Even though you will lose application performance by upgrading to Vista, today's hardware is much faster than yesterday's, and tomorrow's processors will clearly leap even further ahead.
No new Windows release has been able to offer more application performance than its predecessor.


Seems like a positive spin to me. If it's bad, leave it bad, don't try to make it look like it'll get better when you don't know that.

Zenmaster,

Where did I say I didn't want facts? Are you suggesting the only way to obtain facts is thru NDA? I hope not.


Some of my assumptions why tom’s is so anti-apple:

Tom’s approach Apple for info and Apple say no
Tom’s say they will sign NDA’s, Apple still says no
Tom’s goes on a negative Apple campaign

Seriously, the Leopard BSOD problem was caused by the end user installing a 3rd party low level application (in OS X 10.4) that they never updated and then proceeded to install OS X 10.5 even though the makers of the 3rd party software warned their users (via auto update and on their web site and via email) they needed a update their software before installing OS X 10.5. Was this reported by Tom’s – NOPE, no word, just that it BSOD (same junk you saw on 6 o’clock news)!

I would like to see more info on this new ATI killer high end GPU? Do you have any? Please don’t say NDA.

The reality of NDA - once a manufacturer has actually designed and produced sample products, no information in the world is going to stop them from completing the product. A living example of this is the 2900XT or their 3870. Once a company embarks in a direction and finalized the scope, there is no turning back, there is only stopping and starting over – and that IS incredibly costly and time consuming. NDA’s are typically only available around the time they have working parts – there is NOTHING that Tom’s or anyone else could do that would be of benefit to the competition.

Post release tests are great, where did I suggest otherwise?

Like I said, let the reader decide how good or bad or how much “faith” they want to put into the information. Media’s job is to report it and all of it in an unbiased manner.

I’ve got a secret agreement (NDA) not to tell anyone til it’s released – that is good for who?
December 4, 2007 9:34:32 PM

V8Venom,

But from what I have heard, the Next Gen ATI cards will be release on Feb. 32nd 2008.

Starting on March First they will be released for their std list price of $999
The 45nm manufacturing process will allow for these low costs.
They expect to have 1.5x the Pixel Fill Rate of the Current 3870xt

Power usage to about 250w idle and 450w under load.

a b Î Nvidia
December 4, 2007 9:40:44 PM

cleeve said:
OK, did a search for Tom's and vista on google. Two notable articles:

http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/01/29/xp-vs-vista/page...

"Windows Vista clearly is not a great new performer when it comes to executing single applications at maximum speed... We also found some programs that refused to work, and others that seem to cause problems at first but eventually ran properly... There are some programs that showed deeply disappointing performance... Both benchmarks finished much quicker under Windows XP. There aren't newer versions available, and we don't see immediate solutions to this issue."

Looks pretty negative to me. Then looked at the one we did on Vista Networking:

http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/content/view/30163/89/

"What if you were granted the gift of human flight in exchange for possesing the average land speed of a duckbill platypus? Would you take it? Such is the riddle proposed by Microsoft...
...the benefits you'll see in a mixed Vista/XP environment are minimal. In fact, you're going to run into quite a few annoyances because of the way security and permissions are handled in Vista vs. XP. "


I don't know, neither of those articles seem particularly gushy towards Microsoft. In fact, definitely left me with a negative impression. Kind of odd behavior for a publication you've accused of being biased towards Vista, huh?

Then again, I don't think I like Vista much. But maybe I've been brainwashed to have a bias that's making it difficult for me to see the brutal truth: we're a bunch of Microsoft-pimping Apple haters.

All this time I thought we were calling it as we saw it - that we were telling the public about a few Leopard/Apple PR problems. In V8VENOM's opinion, I guess those problems either don't exist or shouldn't be spoken out loud. I guess the public can decide who'se biased.


I was gonna post the same thing.....

Selective reading is just a joke...

They have many reviews that are apple related that are good(good for apple)....as in wifi and ipods, so its not like THG bashings all things apple....
December 4, 2007 9:43:35 PM

But see my above post, I really hope you don't think an NDA makes something more "factual".

Sure, I'll wait in line on Feb 32nd. Leap year right.

I'll buy a 2000 Watt PSU now -- oh wait I already have two 1000 watt ones I need to run my two 2900XTs

$999 - dirt cheap, remember I have a MacPro so I can afford it.

December 4, 2007 10:10:06 PM

V8Venom:

No one cares about Macs because so few use them. Even with Vista's lack of compatibility it has over 10x advantage over the Mac in usable software. It's all about choice which is rather limited with a Mac and most people choose M$. More importantly with a Mac you have to pay for Leopard which M$ land would be a free Service Pack. Lastly I've personally been pretty tough on the new Tom's crew but at least they're not spreading Fud about products. Your beloved inquirer would have us all believing ATI was going to crush Nvidia yet a year later they still play catch up. So use you little Mac to back up that claim that inquirer is more right than wrong. I would guess the results are about 50/50 for the most part a rumor mill.

While do respect your view of the media it's sadly flawed in today's world. It really all about making money while holding on to journalistic principles ( in some cases).


I also bet my little rotary will silence the mean old V8, no never mind that will just lead to more whining and excuses...
December 4, 2007 10:23:33 PM

Squelching an NDA plays into exactly what being said. If the media decides the hell with NDA's, then who would get the test parts? Lessee, maybe someone whos a shoein for a great article maybe? And what would become of the fiddy centers like FUD or the Inq? They wouldnt have any rumors or nothing new. And if this WERE the case, talk about sensationalism, and bias, and profiteering and... look, we ALL want info, but there IS competition, and hype for products, as these businesses are in business to make money. So too are the sites/media, so to me this is a unfortunate requirement to make things somewhat even keel, tho I like you would like to see/read about ALL the upcoming tech asap, especially here at Toms, but alas, were screwed to the system as it is, and its not Toms, Annands or anyone elses fault, just the way things are.
December 4, 2007 10:44:04 PM

Actually these days I drive either a Prius or Lotus Exige S (supercharged 4 banger based loosely on a Toyota motor).

Inquirer is one of many sources just as is tom's and numerous other sites -- what I believe from these sources is pretty irrelevant as each to his/her own in that regard.

But the lack information and the poliferation of NDA based information (or lack there of) leaves much to be desired.

Mac has everything a PC has -- anything that matters (Office, Video, Audio, etc.). The main advantage of a PC is more games. But with UB (Universal Binary) the porting of games to OS X is becoming easier and easier -- but consoles owns the PC when it comes to gaming marketshare anyway sooooo. I have no problem with Apple bashing, if it's done with accruate information -- and that was seriously lacking in tom's articles. There some issues with Logic Studio that really should have prevented it from being released, but that is just an Apple application. But there were some deeper issues with Apple Leopard that were of concern (such as file loss in certainly situations) -- Apple is no means perfect, but their ratio of problems and effort I need to put into my MacPro is 75% less than what I have to do with Vista.

It's all about money when it comes to media manipulation -- it wasn't always that way. The more sources the better, but 1st hand is always my preferred source -- BUT I always seek more information and filter as appropriate.

December 4, 2007 10:44:07 PM

Do you even know what an NDA is? You seem to think an NDA translates into a pro-bias review machine, are you that stupid? Did you not read the article posted last week I believe it was on Intel wanting a paper review on one of their processors?
December 4, 2007 10:52:06 PM

No I didn't say that about an NDA -- I simply said an NDA doesn't mean much nor does it make anything more factual. But yes it has been used as a "pro-bias" review machine -- cause I've signed such agreements. The information/hardware that I was permitted to proceed on was VERY specific and the environment extremely controlled.

I've also been in a position where I've issued the NDA's, so I have a pretty good idea they are used for and why they are used. But it's an agreement and one can word that agreement in just about any way shape or form if your willing to spend technical assistance to your legal department.
a b Î Nvidia
December 4, 2007 10:59:57 PM

What I don't understand V8, is that there are already sites like Digi-Times, Fudzilla and the InQ, why do we need THG to add to that?

I don't walk into Pizza hut and as for a Whopper, Big Mac or Chilli & Baked Potato, which seems to be the same thing you're asking for here.

You comment on nV not being afraid of ATi, yet you obviously don't know what either has coming or else you wouldn't complain about that lack of knowledge and lack of rumours here. Since there's little known about the next gen nV or ATi products G9E/G100 - R700, let alone their performance; then for either company to not be afraid of the competition would be short sighted. The graphics market, even more so than the CPU market, has always been one of ebb and flow, so either company showing their hand now this long before actually getting product to market would make no sense at all. It gives the opposition time to re-act or re-think any launch/product long before you have anything to sell anyone, which is a wasted opportunity. Also it hurts your current line-up/sales if people get even a hint of something special coming soon, and for what, to appease people who like to read tabloids and listen to rumours?

I don't see the big issue with the Apple article, but then again I'm not too sensitive to them.

I hate M$ and Apple for different aspects of their OS, but I still wouldn't go with Linux at home, because I don't have that much time to waste rebuilding and tweaking anymore. I respect it and like linux, but wouldn't use it as my main system. But neither of the mainstream OSs are clean, and my bigest complaint about Apple is that they refuse to open their software beyond their own mediocre hardware (don't get all defensive, a pre-built DULL PC is also mediocre hardware).

But I don't see what that has to do with graphics cards, other than those specialized hardware requirements furher limit your graphics options.

PS, one of my favourite Ctrl-Alt-Del's;

http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20060513

I mainly like it because I don't like the smug Apple user anymore than I like the smug Linux or Windows user.

Oh forgot to mention before OS/2 RULZ!!! :sol: 
December 5, 2007 12:16:55 AM

v8

i can make the same argument you're making for macs about linux, too.

except there's still that one thorn
not enough people use them to care.
not to be brutal, but it's the truth.

and really, there's probably more than 10x more software available for windows than there is for mac and linux.

I like the way THG reports things. I've never found a more trustworthy tech site.
True, NDA may give biased reviews, but at least they're truthful, and not guesses. (which is what non-NDA sites are forced to do, until they can get their hands on real hardware)

Vista and Leopard both have problems, and lots of them; that's pretty much the end of that argument.
Tom's was simply trying to make the point in its articles about leopard that it is highly unusual for a mac os to show so many problems, especially ones this severe. I remember reading the Vista articles on the day of it's release, and there was no doubt in my mind i did NOT want vista. It was showing it off to be pretty darn bad. And as for blocking so many support requests? that's simply ridiculous. apple's not listening to it's own customers. I don't hear about people getting blocked on microsoft forums, and certainly not on linux forums (but that's open source, where criticism is a GOOD thing, which many people forget)

simply, pc's represent more choice. you get more choice to do what you want (hardware and software). included with that choice is the chance things will go wrong. With more choice, the chance increases.

Apple gives you less choice into your mac. Therefore, there are less faults in the mac.

If you choose less faults and less choice, then that's your opinion.
But most people on this kind of forum love their choices.
therefore, they use pc's.

If that's your opinion, fine.
Don't try to budge the rest of us.

I like my windows pc's, and i like my linux pc's.
I don't like macs because there's not enough options, not enough reconfigurability.

you like your macs. if that's what you like, fine. but they aren't for me, and for most people in the world.

the world lives in peace.
December 5, 2007 12:22:52 AM

V8VENOM said:

Mac has everything a PC has -- anything that matters (Office, Video, Audio, etc.).


For someone so excited about the next generation videocards, I would think that games matter to you.

But you left it out. That's odd. Pretty conspicuous in it's absence.

I wonder what kind of bias would make you do that... :D 
December 5, 2007 1:35:25 AM

I feel like I'm at a communist party meeting. "The good of the People"? common.... NDAs are don't to protect the manufacturer for competitive edge and sorry buddy, but Nvidia does not make video cards for the "good of the people". Money... mula...

your asking for zero barriers to information and perfect OS's, rediculous. Thats is like asking for $3 million dollars for zero work with immediate transfer. Of course saying that I would like what you want also... but life's a bitch... haha
December 5, 2007 2:03:12 AM

If your willing to spend twice as much for what half the money can do (and/or more), go for it. It's not my house/vehicle/food/upkeep/pc/fuel/internet/cable payment. As simple as that. Mac could be a competitor... if one could purchase it without getting thier car repo-ed. Theres no need for it and all in all, that is why Apple hasn't progressed like the PC. I guess if your an easily charmed playdoh brain; thier marketing has got you by the short n' curlies.
What is the correlation bitten eaten silver apple avatars and bitching today?

-Forgot to add electricity payment and girl friend's spending habits :pfff:  :sarcastic: 
December 5, 2007 3:24:43 AM

Okay here is my viewpoint.
1) If you don't like what your reading, than go elsewhere. I don't go over to any political sites, because I dont' care to read them, so you should do the same. If your trying to change Tom's that isn't going to happen from one reader/writer.
2) Macs are nice (getting better too with Intel), but they don't have too many options, which for some people this is fine. I don't like to buy overpriced hardware and not have many options. If Macs were close to the PC prices, I'm betting you there would be 100x more Macs sold. My wife would probably run on a Mac better than windows, but she doesn't do anything too tasking (email-solitaire-banking-etc.). Same can be said about Linux too. It's free, but not as user friendly as a Mac or XP/Vista.
3) I'd say that 95% of the reason that Macs don't have as many issues, is there are a limited amount of hardware configurations that a Mac can be. By limiting these hardware configurations, you theoretically has reduced the amout of issues/problems that you can run into.
4) I think that the Macs are probably one of the more stable OS's out there, but that is basically because of the hardware limitations that are put on them.

I originally started on computers back in the 80's on Apples. They were in my school and I really enjoyed them. When the time came to purchase my first home PC (not including my Vic20 or Commodore 64), I looked at both types (Apple, IBM, IBM clones). The price difference was too large for me to consider an Apple. I knew that the apple software was pretty good, but the system price caused me to look elsewhere. I also remember that I wanted to have lots of software options, but this also didn't favor the Apple brand.
Okay I guess I should stop ranting, but thought I should throw in my 2 bits. Hopefully some of this makes sense to others too, but that is just where I'm coming from.
December 5, 2007 1:29:59 PM

Quote:
Apple is no means perfect, but their ratio of problems and effort I need to put into my MacPro is 75% less than what I have to do with Vista.
This can be argued either way depending who you are. For example, if you know all the software that is compatible with Mac's before you install it - you'll run into very few issues. The same can be said with Software for Vista. If you're in the middle and just buy software w/o researching compatibility... you're bound to run into issues and that's not necessarily the OS's fault.

Of course the Mac is going to run into a lot less issues because of the hardware it supports. When you only support 1 set of hardware per Mac, you know what will and will not work... of course when you move on to Vista or Windows in general, you support tons of hardware that can't possibly all be tested before releasing the OS. I can't really say anything else that hasn't already been said. With Macs... you simply get less choices. I have no problem with people that use Macs or like Macs, but I do not like them. I do not like trying to be "converted" or listening to how good a Mac is from every Mac user though... Just like you wouldn't like a date if all your date did was talk about how cool they are and why you should be more like them. (Although... If I was getting laid at the end of the night, I suppose I wouldn't care, but that's another story)

Anyways...

About NDA's. There are pro's and con's to them. While yes, Tom's can't say anything about the product before the NDA is lifted, they probably get hands on experience w/ said product so they can have a review prepared and ready as soon as the NDA ends. I'd rather read a review that was based more on experience and less on speculation... Now in if you're not under and NDA, you can say whatever you want, but chances are that you're not going to be able to test the product before release, therefor you (we) may have to wait even longer before we see an accurate (non-speculative) review released.
!