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True Spider System (should I wait?)

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December 7, 2007 6:45:58 PM

Alright, I am getting a true spyder system. My question is the AMD Phenoms have been having the cache problem as you all probably know. So, should I wait until they released the revised Phenom? Get one now, and trade in later? or wait until the PhenomFX is released? ...or get a Q6600 lol
Heres a what its gonna be with Spyder-wise:

AMD Phenom X4 Agena 9500 (I definately plan to Overclock)
MSI Platinum AMD 790FX socket AM2+
2x CF VisionTek ATI Radeon HD3870's
December 7, 2007 6:48:48 PM

Wait for the 9550 which fould have the errata problem fixed. Also, I have no idea there is a HD 3900 series coming out soon.
a b à CPUs
December 7, 2007 6:51:57 PM

I would recommend waiting a few weeks to see how the AMD side shakes out before spending any money at all - Whether it goes AMD or Intel in the end.

If it were my money, I'd also want to have a deeper understanding of how *exactly* the Spider system works. The primary question being whether or not it's somehow transparent to the games you are running, or if it requires driver support a'la SLI/Crossfire. The former case being a gamer's wet dream. The latter... well.... dependent on software writers to create/build support in the games we play in order to make it work...
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December 7, 2007 6:52:39 PM

Xpyrofuryx said:
Alright, I am getting a true spyder system. My question is the AMD Phenoms have been having the cache problem as you all probably know. So, should I wait until they released the revised Phenom? Get one now, and trade in later? or wait until the PhenomFX is released? ...or get a Q6600 lol
Heres a what its gonna be with Spyder-wise:

AMD Phenom X4 Agena 9500 (I definately plan to Overclock)
MSI Platinum AMD 790FX socket AM2+
2x CF VisionTek ATI Radeon HD3970's



It depends on if you are DIY or buying retail. There is a great deal on a retail system at maingear.com or cyberpowerpc.com The CyberPower has water cooling for $1355. With a passive GPU, you will almost have a silent PC.
December 7, 2007 6:54:21 PM

If you have money, just go for Intel. If you prefer AMD (which still has nice price/performance for X2, ATI 3800), then wait for B3 stepping, I wouldnt recommend current tbh, its not worth it. Its either X2 for low price or Intel dual/quad atm IMO.
December 7, 2007 7:26:59 PM

You may be waiting sometime for the 'fixed Phenom's'... the mere fact they released a bugged product in the first place, then lied about it only effecting the 2.4Ghz Phenom, says a lot about AMD's commitment to their customers :( 

Q6600 is tried and tested with an affordable price tag ;) 
December 7, 2007 7:37:21 PM

I did see about the phenom with B3 stepping, that might be worth waiting for. And what does the Phenom 9550 have special? Will the bug be fixed on either the B3 stepping one or the 9550?

Also I heard the bug only really shows up in lab conditions, not really anything that would inconvienance me too much
December 7, 2007 7:41:15 PM

nothing wrong with the Q6600 and enjoy your system now.
December 7, 2007 7:50:31 PM

The 9550 will be the B3 revision of the 9500 which should have better performance. If you have anything that utilizes all 4 cores with a heavy workload, then you would encounter the bug (i.e. virtualization) and higher clock speed would cause the bug to be more prevalent (my guess on why they pulled everything above 2.4ghz off the market).
December 7, 2007 8:02:02 PM

so will the 9550 have the cache bug? And how much do you think itll cost?
December 7, 2007 8:24:50 PM

I'm also waiting to he spider because I think it will be a solid system.AMD will be coming out with drivers for Q Xfire in january,the same drivers for the X2 3870.
December 7, 2007 8:30:30 PM

Xpyrofuryx said:
so will the 9550 have the cache bug? And how much do you think itll cost?

No, it wont. I dont think AMD would screwup up fixing TLB bug, just maybe introduce new ones (kidding :)  )
December 7, 2007 8:42:49 PM

I'd stay away from current Phenoms to be honest, just too many problems, and they aren't very overclockable either.

I'm sure you've heard it 100s of times already... but... wait for B3.

Or you can just take the 'easy' way out and get a Q6600. ;) 
December 7, 2007 8:47:01 PM

I also heard this somewhere, not sure how true it is. But I heard that Win XP doesnt utilize 4 cores all that well, and Vista does it better, but still not all that well. But AMD is releasing a patch or something that will make the utilization of the four cores in Windows a lot better. this wont change anything like game benchmarks really but in general multi-tasking that will help. i do multi-tasking ALOT, even more then gaming.
a b à CPUs
December 7, 2007 8:52:57 PM

Quote:
I also heard this somewhere, not sure how true it is. But I heard that Win XP doesnt utilize 4 cores all that well, and Vista does it better, but still not all that well.


This is a function of the applications running on the OS, and not just the OS itself. Vista and XP SP2+ utilize 4 cores just fine.
December 7, 2007 8:53:25 PM

Perhaps that is what WinXP SP3 is for... they claim a 10% performance boost, some argue it is due to multithreaded optimizations.

AMD is releasing a patch for quad core utilization in Windows? First time I've heard anything like that... do you have a link?
December 7, 2007 8:59:31 PM

I'd say just go ahead and buy it, the spider. Post some pic's and stuff.. Share some bench mark info. It would be nice to see comparisons from users on this forum. :D 
December 7, 2007 9:04:28 PM

If you want a Spider System Get a Spider System.
This is about getting a Spider System, no reason to wait.

I would get it ASAP because AMD has stopped shipping more Phenoms due to all of the problems, so I would get them before the limited number they have shipped sell out.

It will be 3+ months until more ship.
December 7, 2007 9:11:56 PM

I would get the spider system with a 5000+ BE for now (over a Phenom) until the B3's ship out.
December 7, 2007 9:15:31 PM

Xpyrofuryx said:
Alright, I am getting a true spyder system. My question is the AMD Phenoms have been having the cache problem as you all probably know. So, should I wait until they released the revised Phenom? Get one now, and trade in later? or wait until the PhenomFX is released? ...or get a Q6600 lol
Heres a what its gonna be with Spyder-wise:

AMD Phenom X4 Agena 9500 (I definately plan to Overclock)
MSI Platinum AMD 790FX socket AM2+
2x CF VisionTek ATI Radeon HD3870's


Looking back to your original question, partly because I've thought through this matter myself, I'd skip buying a Phenom at all for the moment. Instead, I'd put a 5000+ Black Edition into the board for half the price and get better performance, plus have a good range of overclocking available. I would not plan on the idea of 3 or 4 video cards. No drivers have been released, and it may January or it may be months before they get released. Besides, except for those who have a lot of excess money and the need to get super high 3DMark06 scores, of how much real use would all those cards be?

Then there is the gamble involved. A little over a year ago, AMD released the QFX. After the initial bad press, AMD promised a FX76 chip that would address the problems. After a period of time, AMD decided to shelve the FX76. Though I can't say it will happen, AMD might discover there are more problems with Phenom than can be solved and put it on the shelf as well. If that happened, you would have an expensive motherboard with no corresonding, non-recalled cpu to put into it. Oh, maybe you could use 3 or 4 video cards, if the drivers ever come out and you feel a need and have lots of money.

For myself, I decided that if I was going to build a machine with an AMD cpu at the moment, I would get an ASUS AM2 Crosshair mobo, a couple gig of ram, and the 5000+ BE for around $450, thus saving about $200. But that's my take on the sirutation and others may have different ideas. Either that, or spend a bit more on an Intel powered machine
December 7, 2007 9:25:08 PM

the 10% boost in SP3 was in one companys benchmark using office 2007.
December 7, 2007 9:34:56 PM

I'd also overclock the $130 5000+ BE and wait to see what happens with the Phenom B3's. Also, pretty sure I read AMD is aiming to release an unlocked Phenom CPU (Black Edition) by the end of this year (Q4), so that might be worth looking at also.

I like the idea of the Spider system, including the 4 GPU option with the FX motherboards because that will allow you to stick in a 3rd and 4th in a year or two (or more) once your current number of cards start to bottleneck the system. The other cool thing is that in 2 years, you can add in whatever new ATI cards you want and they will crossfire with your 'old' 3870s :) 

December 7, 2007 10:03:43 PM

If you like the idea of CF 3870s you can do that with an Intel P35 or X38 board and a Q6600 CPU. :)  I certainly wouldn't buy a Phenom CPU now, not until the TLB bug is addressed properly in the next revision.
December 7, 2007 10:54:49 PM

What do you guys think about maybe going with a x38 and Q6600? I kinds wanna stick with AMD tho, even the wait will ease the financial burden
December 7, 2007 10:59:51 PM

Xpyrofuryx said:
What do you guys think about maybe going with a x38 and Q6600? I kinds wanna stick with AMD tho, even the wait will ease the financial burden


That's pretty much the combo I've been considering. It works, its reasonably fast, can have a cpu upgrade if you want, can take two cards for Crossfire if you want, and most important, its here now and now instead of promised to come sometime in the vague future.
December 7, 2007 11:58:46 PM

wait!
December 8, 2007 12:45:16 AM

boner said:
wait!


For what? :bounce:  :bounce: 
December 8, 2007 1:00:24 AM

Xpyrofuryx said:
Alright, I am getting a true spyder system. My question is the AMD Phenoms have been having the cache problem as you all probably know. So, should I wait until they released the revised Phenom? Get one now, and trade in later? or wait until the PhenomFX is released? ...or get a Q6600 lol
Heres a what its gonna be with Spyder-wise:

AMD Phenom X4 Agena 9500 (I definately plan to Overclock)
MSI Platinum AMD 790FX socket AM2+
2x CF VisionTek ATI Radeon HD3870's


First, we have no idea when Phenom B3 is going to debut. Word on the street is in March, but I cannot vouch for it. B3 stepping should bring higher clocked Phenom, as well as improved L3 TLB errata. However, it looks like Phenom will consume more power compared to Q6600, it will also dissipate more heat, and overclock a lot lower than Q6600.

According to those who tried to overclock Phenom, they agreed 3.2Ghz will be the maximum frequency with air cooling, compared to 3.6Ghz with Q6600.

If you're planning to overclock, Q6600 or even Q9300/Q9450 will suit you more.
December 8, 2007 3:37:56 AM

what sucks is the 9500 isnt goin to overclock much at all...:( 
December 8, 2007 4:02:37 AM

Definitely wait. B3 can only be better. As for the 790FX chipset board, your call. But if you are going to wait on B3, might as well wait on the board too, cause to be frank, there are still some kinks to work out. Early adoptors almost always get burned lol! (same goes for Intel X38 chipset or any other new piece of hardware).
December 8, 2007 5:42:56 AM

Like Sailer was saying get the 5000 BE ( have seen them on sale for $99) but stay away from anything Asus (never owned one that lasted 3 years. Death from bad capasitors)...get a DFI LANParty UT 790FX-M2R.
http://us.dfi.com.tw/press/press_header_content_us.jsp?...

DFI takes the worlds OC contest held each year in Taiwan...almost all MB's brands are made there... and holds both the Intel and AMD ribbion for years running.

They use better parts (and caps) than other builders.

All my 2 1/2 year old Optron 146 builds (2Ghz stock...7 of them on my LAN) on DFI Expert MB's run @ 3Ghz on stock volts and only hit 3C over room temps with Thermalright coolers (and TIM paste they came with) after an hour of Prime...everything on stock volts.
Never needed to push them further but sure they will go for me if I wanted...just don't want to change ANY volts.

I also only use PC Power & Cooling PSU's...call them and ask for a Tech and buy dirrect from him for the lowest prices.

CoolerMaster I have found to be the coolest cases and like the LARGE TO-1 CM Stacker over newer ones (unscrew the rear fan grill on the case for 100% flow).

Best 120mm fans are Silverstone FM-121 @ 110 qfpm on high and have a free speed controller...can be found online for as low as $11.
December 8, 2007 6:47:00 AM

Nobody can answer you unless you get one and then become the victim (well, maybe, maybe not...). I think all of us here just read the news and reports and generate our own conclusion, and no one can actually explain what happen the problem(s) of the B2 stepping Phenoms is and what it will cause. We all just know there will be BIOS update that will make the 9500 at least 10% slower (if not even more slower) and will fix the problem maybe, and the fact that any Phenom you can buy within 2007 will be slower than any quad-core-single-die processor Intel offers.

Grab a AM2+ mainboard, a HD3800 series display card and a piece of Black Edition 5000+ if you wanna to support AMD. Advise you to go for the new 45nm Intel offer if you want to have a quad-core computer at the moment...Don't even try to ask how much will be the B3 stepping Phenom 9500 will cost, it may never exist...
December 8, 2007 6:54:49 AM

Only reason why I say get one, is to at least have people support AMD, and show off their rigs here to give a fresh look, rather then other forums. Now I'm not exactly sure what the bug does, in an average use (gaming/browsing/email/chat) as long as the system can at least run without too many hiccups or problems it should be okay to buy one and test it out.

I'll admit that its kind of messed up from what you read here and there, but as everyone agrees we need both companies in business to have better products. I mean, BM has already said he was going for one a while back, even the 4x4, and nodda.. nothing, no pictures no benches.. just posts of words of hope, or flame wars. I dunno, to me it would be nice to see people who come here to give their impressions on new built rigs on the phenom as it is, as well as physical support on their products.
December 8, 2007 12:22:19 PM

I guess trading in your old CPU is not a good value of your money.
If the cache problem is not too annoying for you, just stay with your old CPU.
I recommend saving the money and prepare for another system later.
a b à CPUs
December 8, 2007 12:56:51 PM

My 2 cents...

I'd wait until 1Q or 2Q to get a Spider based machine mostly due to AMD/ATI releasing the (supposedly) higher clocked dual core Phenoms as well as the SB7xx series southbridge for the 790X/790FX chipset. The SB600 is no slouch by any means, but the mobos on the market now are also the first release of 790 series chipset and chances are the mobo makers will have made some revisions/changes/improvements to their product line-up aside from just BIOS updates. If you don't want to wait until next year, at the very least wait until Asus and/or aBit officially releases their 790FX boards rather than just jumping at the Gigabyte and MSI offerings.

And, if you really can't wait, I'd say go with the Gigabyte board and a 6400 of (as mentioned) the 5000BE and upgrade to a Phenom later.

Good luck!
December 8, 2007 1:52:53 PM

I think I'm gonna get everything spider except the phenom, I'll get a 5000+ BE instead until Q12008 and I'll get a B3 phenom
December 8, 2007 2:05:34 PM

Xpyrofuryx said:
I think I'm gonna get everything spider except the phenom, I'll get a 5000+ BE instead until Q12008 and I'll get a B3 phenom


Fine enough, probably a good plan. Only ask that you report how well the setup works, because if it works well, I might do the same.
December 8, 2007 2:13:56 PM

sailer said:
Fine enough, probably a good plan. Only ask that you report how well the setup works, because if it works well, I might do the same.


Alright I will, I'll post benchmarks and everything. Its the least I could do for all your guys help
December 8, 2007 3:27:19 PM

K10 is buggy, flawed, hot, and doesn't perform.

If you're going quad-core, go Intel.

If you're going dual-core, it's debatable.

If you're going dual-core with hopes of going quad-core, go Intel.


"AMD" and "quad core" shouldn't be said in the same sentence. Their quad-core offerings are buggy, recalled, sub-par, and simply a joke. I don't care how much "true quad" marketing they do, it still stinks just like what it is; poop.
December 8, 2007 3:51:03 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:

"AMD" and "quad core" shouldn't be said in the same sentence. Their quad-core offerings are buggy, recalled, sub-par, and simply a joke. I don't care how much "true quad" marketing they do, it still stinks just like what it is; poop.


Without argument, that is true at the moment. What many people hope for is that AMD will yet work out the bugs and perhaps make other changes so their quad core will overclock well. Yes, that's a hope and nothing more. But similar could well be said a couple years ago about Intel's chips, before C2D rocked the computer world.
December 8, 2007 5:36:35 PM

zenmaster said:
If you want a Spider System Get a Spider System.
This is about getting a Spider System, no reason to wait.

I would get it ASAP because AMD has stopped shipping more Phenoms due to all of the problems, so I would get them before the limited number they have shipped sell out.

It will be 3+ months until more ship.



They HAVE NOT STOPPED SHIPPING PHENOMS. They HAVE NOT STOPPED SHIPPING OPTERONS. The most affected workload is virtualization, so AMD has guidance that customers should wait if they do a lot of virtualization. Most HPC workloads are not affected, which is where most Opterons are going.

There is one erratum causing problems not a bunch. God, you guys.....
December 8, 2007 5:47:53 PM

TechnologyCoordinator said:
K10 is buggy, flawed, hot, and doesn't perform.

If you're going quad-core, go Intel.

If you're going dual-core, it's debatable.

If you're going dual-core with hopes of going quad-core, go Intel.


"AMD" and "quad core" shouldn't be said in the same sentence. Their quad-core offerings are buggy, recalled, sub-par, and simply a joke. I don't care how much "true quad" marketing they do, it still stinks just like what it is; poop.



If you keep this up your head is going to explode. THERE IS ONE BUG. For a first rev they are doing pretty good. The 2.4GHz Brisbane can use 65W, the 2.4GHz Phenom is a little less than twice. It sounds like those pesky laws of Physics are kicking in. I guess it'll take a while to override that.

Damn them.
December 8, 2007 5:59:24 PM

BaronMatrix said:
They HAVE NOT STOPPED SHIPPING PHENOMS.

Correct. Deliveries of the 9700 were halted before they began, eliminating the need to stop or recall those SKUS. Shipments of slower SKU Phenoms do persist, even though they contain the same flaw.

BaronMatrix said:

HAVE NOT STOPPED SHIPPING OPTERONS. The most affected workload is virtualization, so AMD has guidance that customers should wait if they do a lot of virtualization. Most HPC workloads are not affected, which is where most Opterons are going.

There is one erratum causing problems not a bunch. God, you guys.....

Conditionally correct.
They have not stoped shipping Opterons. Only the K10 core Opterons. The K10 Opterons have been recalled, except in 2 (reportedly) cases in which the purchaser has the specific capability to test the units for suitability. In other cases, no further K10 Opterons are being shipped to the OEMs or the channel.

Please be sure to clarify your responses in the future to avoid presenting misleading information
December 8, 2007 6:46:50 PM

turpit said:
Correct. Deliveries of the 9700 were halted before they began, eliminating the need to stop or recall those SKUS. Shipments of slower SKU Phenoms do persist, even though they contain the same flaw.


Conditionally correct.
They have not stoped shipping Opterons. Only the K10 core Opterons. The K10 Opterons have been recalled, except in 2 (reportedly) cases in which the purchaser has the specific capability to test the units for suitability. In other cases, no further K10 Opterons are being shipped to the OEMs or the channel.

Please be sure to clarify your responses in the future to avoid presenting misleading information


Even though I'm not sure I agree with what all you're saying, Turpit, I have to admit that that was a damn funny post. Nice use of irony, man.
December 8, 2007 9:18:35 PM

sailer said:
Without argument, that is true at the moment. What many people hope for is that AMD will yet work out the bugs and perhaps make other changes so their quad core will overclock well. Yes, that's a hope and nothing more. But similar could well be said a couple years ago about Intel's chips, before C2D rocked the computer world.


Yup, and a couple years ago I was all over Goliath (Intel) for getting whipped by David (AMD).
!