AMD does it again, R700 Delayed till 2009, Phenom 2Q 2008

[Kamrooz]

"Nevertheless, Mario Rivas, who is executive vice president of computing solutions group revealed in his presentation that the code-named ATI R700-family of products will only be available in 2009."

"The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD%u2019s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD%u2019s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities."

Full Article-
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20071214153406_AMD_Delays_Introduction_of_Next_Generation_ATI_R700_Graphics_Chips.html

But when pressed by an analyst about when exactly faster Barcelona parts (i.e., 2.5 GHz) would be available, there was a pause, then Rivas offered early Q2 in the "April-May timeframe."

Full Article
http://www.x86watch.com/news/amd-barcelona-analyst-meeting-188.html

First off, I'd like to apologize for posting this in the cpu section, but most of the extremely well known individuals with great insight and point of views mostly visit this CPU section, so wanted to make sure I can hear their thoughts. If it was a bad idea, I apologize, and you can delete/move the thread.

Another disappointment rolled after another. This is truly becoming horrible, Yet Ruiz gets a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking. Yes they are low on R&D funding do to many issues which we've all heard many times. But to delay R700, which if successful, could of at least gained them some income, is just downright depressing. We'll probably end up seeing a VERY expensive 9800 from Nvidia.....The future is beginning to dim a bit, this is no a good turn of events. A high end monopoly is not going to be good at all.

But at least r680 will be out in the market, the dual gpu solution might give some comfort for AMD till 2009. But I doubt it will give them much. I literally can not even comprehend this delay, it is not registering in my head at all. To think they would delay till 2009 is just absurd and jaw dropping. ::sighs::, although I have more on my mind regarding the subject, I'm just gonna let it be, and let it out slowly in discussion.

Regarding the Phenom 2Q launch, wasn't it originally intended for a March release? I guess maybe this will be the B3 stepping that was intended for march? Everything just gets worse and worse. The longer they take getting out faster phenoms, the smaller the profit (if you can even call it profit) they will make before Nehalem. When Nehalem gets released, core prices will drop, and in turn AMD will have to drop their prices to be competitive. AMD just keeps making a big mistake after another. I do understand they are low on R&D funding, but a whole is being dug they can't get out of by themselves. Someone will have to intervene, who?, no idea, a buy out? merger?, so many possibilities. But the key factor, the future looks bleak.

 

[ryman554]

I don't see this as being a delay - per se - in K10.. recall Barcy is a server chip and is at lower clocks than Phenom... so while a lack of a 2.5Ghz Barcy is troubling in and of itself, it's not a delay from what they have been saying recently.

That being said, it *is* at least a nine month delay from where they said they were going to be last year at this time. Given that we've seen, what, a 2.0 (max) from AMD, getting a 2.5 out by the spring would be a coup.

 

[Kamrooz]

If you read the entire article regarding k10, It's in regarding of Barcelona/Phenom, both platforms. So it's not just the server chips. If I remember correctly it was stated that B3 would be a March launch, the 2.4/2.6 Phenom would fit in that timeframe, unless they meant B3 stepping in march, with the 2.5+ models in April/May.

The biggest issue IMO is th delay of r700, pushing back their entire GPU roadmap to 2009, that's quite a scary thought.

 

[lambofgode3x]

i'm a big amd and ati fan and all, but they're screwing up big time. they really need some new leadership in that company and i'm not the only one that thinks so. maybe samsung will buy them and they can pump more money into fixing AMD's stuff. even the fanboys need to face it, amd needs a savior right now. i havent owned in intel in about 10 years, and when i'm doing a rebuild this summer if amd's quad core problems still arent fixed and they're till underperforming...intel it is, which saddens me.

 

[Kamrooz]

Unfortunately it's not that simple either, if AMD is indeed bought out, there x86 license will be voided. It's quite a tricky scenario...But nothing is looking good.

 

[yipsl]

I'm more troubled by the problems with Phenom than I am the R700 delay. I believe they're planning on doing a dual core GPU with R700, whereas R680 will be two GPUs on one card.

Let's face it, AMD is back to where they were in the K62 days. They're the value conscious budget CPU company. ATI is doing better, even if AMD payed too much for them. AMD might have management issues (and Hector Ruiz does not deserve a raise), but were it not for AMD then Intel would not be innovative as a response.

Intel didn't mind foisting Netburst on the desktop PC market, but it took their failure in the server market to get them to acknowledge reality and to put their money into R&D. So, I don't see AMD's failure as critical, considering the size of the company and what they're trying to accomplish, but if they don't survive, then we won't see much innovation for some time from Intel.

Who cares about a high end GPU? All AMD has to do is remain competitive in the entry and mainstream market. Hybrid Crossfire with the 780G and X3450 and X3470 looks good for that, as does the performance of the X3850 and X3870. So they're back in the Radeon 8500 days, so what?

They will either survive and innovate, bringing the next X2 and Radeon 9700, they will be bought out, or they will die as a company and others will buy their tech. Until then, all the kvetching in the world won't help and their fans, like myself, will just have to be realistic. AMD will earn it's profitability back in the entry level and mainstream.

Nvidia and Intel can have the performance GPU and CPU for now. In the long run, that performance crown doesn't mean much, as the products are way overpriced. After all, I'd rather buy X3870's for both our PC's than to spend twice as much for one Nvidia power hog that only grants about 20-30 fps more in a FPS title that I don't actually play.

ATI does quite well in the RPG and RTS titles that I do play, all the while providing value. As is, I'll get 65nm Barcelona's at 2.9 gigahertz for my next spring builds, I can't see wasting money on a Phenom or buying overpriced C2D's.

Unfortunately it's not that simple either, if AMD is indeed bought out, there x86 license will be voided. It's quite a tricky scenario...But nothing is looking good.

I'm sure Samsung could afford another license. If IBM buys them out (much less likely), then there's probably a license already in existence. If not, then they can afford one too. I can't see Intel getting away with the anticompetitive refusal to cooperate in the licensing of x86 technology.

I'm looking forward to the death of x86. It might be 20 years from now, when I'm 70, but it's coming. The architecture is getting old and something along the line of a Cell needs to replace it.

 

[shargrath]

youve to got to be something kidding me.
really, sweet intel you guys are screwing up incredibly.
holy hell
sweet mother
if your losing money due to inferior products what do you do? cut down r&d?, they may not be inferior right now but i can see nivida doing there own re-fresh around may giving them time to postpone what would be the rv700's competition so they can tweak it and possibly get a whole lot more out of it and still get it to the market a month or two before amd.

im betting that the RV620 is just two 55nm 2400xt's on the one boards, and the RV635 is just two 55nm 2600xt's with ramped up clock speeds.

the rv700 better have over 9000 of everything and be only 25cm long and use 50w to be justified, even if they are cutting down r&d.

 

[someguy7]

Overpriced C2D's? What are you talking about. The only chips that are overpriced are the EE chips and the Q6700 currently isnt worth the price difference from the q6600 which by the way is cheap.

 

[soloman02]

Just think, with ATI/AMD not releasing the R700 in 2008, why would Nvidia bother releasing the 9800 series?

So, this is worse than you thought, since Nvidia has proof that their rival will not release anything to compete with the high end, nvidia has no reason to release the 9800 series to remain on top. They can just keep milking the current generation of chips. Face it, GPU innovation has stagnated with this latest announcement from ATI/AMD.

 

[endyen]

We always seem to forget a few things.
AMD increased thier share of the processor market by .6% last quarter. This quarter, they will sell more chips than they ever have before.
It's not like they cant sell every chip they make. Nor is it really a question of profit. AMD doesn't do profit. They never have, and probably wont for a long time. I believe in the last 40 quarters, they have used black ink only 3 or 4 times. Historicly thier quarterly reports are a sea of red, yet they have grown from a $100,000 company, to a top 500 company. They are competing against a monster 10 to 20 times thier size, and are only slightly behind.
Somehow, I think they will soldier along.

 

[NMDante]

We always seem to forget a few things.
AMD increased thier share of the processor market by .6% last quarter. This quarter, they will sell more chips than they ever have before.
It's not like they cant sell every chip they make. Nor is it really a question of profit. AMD doesn't do profit. They never have, and probably wont for a long time. I believe in the last 40 quarters, they have used black ink only 3 or 4 times. Historicly thier quarterly reports are a sea of red, yet they have grown from a $100,000 company, to a top 500 company. They are competing against a monster 10 to 20 times thier size, and are only slightly behind.
Somehow, I think they will soldier along.

While what you wrote was true, you forget that during the time they built themselves up, they didn't carry a debt that is worth almost as much as the company does today. Slightly behind depends on how you look at things. If you believe that their current products are just slightly behind Intel's that is fine, but unfortunately, it's much more than slightly behind, to others. Realize that Barcelona and Phenom are the flagship CPUs for AMD, not their mainstream CPUs. These were the CPUs to help jump start them back to profitability. Instead, they (AMD) have realized that the entire launch of both Barcelona and Phenom were close to disasterous as possible.

Also, the .6% cost them how much for that quarter? Close to $400M? And if this report is true, Intel has regained the lost market share from AMD so far, this quarter.

Intel grew based on strong shipments of mobile personal computer products. The company also regained some of the market share it lost to Advanced Micro Devices Inc., its rival in the computer microprocessor market, according to Gartner.

Link to Article

So, AMD might soldier along, but it is not marching, more than it is limping.

 

[endyen]

Also, the .6% cost them how much for that quarter? Close to $400M?

Well, no. The "lost $400M" would be thier writedown on Fab36 and the Ati aquisition, so it's more like they didn't replace money they spent last year, and the year before. What is noteworthy about AMD's finanial position is that they currently have 550 million outstanding shares, while last year, they had 650 million. So while "loosing alot of money" they were somehow able to buy back 15% of thier shares.
Interesting.
Thier present market worth is $700M less than what they paid for Ati.
Interesting.
The present "depreciated" worth of Fab36 is higher than AMD's "market value".
Interesting.

 

[apache_lives]

Could this be another company like 3Dfx... such a sad waste...

The delays and what not make it sound like a few company's i know of, first comes delays and people start loosing trust in there products, then the quiet, as the dream becomes harder to follow, then... gone...

When Intel releases peryn at 45nm fully they will have the price and performance advantage as it cost less to produce, and as for the Nvidia 9 series - a new insane series of mid range cards to come with a new king, if ATi isnt working on a new one, then chances are Nvidia cards will overlap ATi with even low/mid range cards...

 

[wh3resmycar]

that would suck if the next gen ati cards wont be coming out 2008.. oh crap im tired of the remixes of geforce 8s already, if ati dont make a move, we'll be in another long year of gfx stagnation

 

[Reynod]

The pay rise ... jeesh !!

This just made made me feel ill ... corporate greed gone terribly wrong.

What the hell do you do with that much money?

Bet he can afford a quad core unlocked Intel CPU in his PC at home !!

 

[ro3dog]

AMD is fine,I keep saying this alot.First the Phenom will get better with each stepping till they go to 45nm,Intel to is having issues with there cpu,which will give AMD much time to tweak.Second,the chip set market is about to take off ,790s with its flexabalities and the 780s with its hybrid igp.Intel and Nvidia wont get much rest with these.Third and last,the gpu.AMD will be relying on there drivers to pull them through,which I believe it can (hybrid drivers).The gpu's 55nm is not only smaller and cheaper than Nvidia's 65nm,but has alot of room to play with,so I dought it wont be competive ,in fact I'm thinking XTX.I didnt think the R700 would be ready anyway due to it being a 45nm multi core gpu.I think we have fallen in the negitive hype hole,that we are not seeing the whole picture.The Phenom suck now, but we are not just talking about Phenom now but the whole company.

 

[someguy7]

What issues are Intel having rodog?. The only thing i have seen that can be considered a issue is the qx9770 power usage on the ES samples. which frankly almost knowbody gives or should give a crap about As long as the rest of the penryn core cpus are fine(1333fsbs) Basing what we have seen the from the qx9650 there power usage is great. Intel is meeting its roadmap on schedule.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

I think we have fallen in the negitive hype hole,

It's not a hype hole, it's reality. You can't ignore sub-par, FAR less than promised performance, stop ship orders, recalls, patches that degrade performance, and even AMD admits serious design issues with K10. Pile on top of that more product delays, huge company debt, and a spiraling stock price and I smell disaster. Even if AMD was to issue more shares, the amount they would get for dilluting their ownership would be pathetic at today's prices.

There is a reason AMD is selling for less than $8.50, instead of the $40 it was at only two years ago. That reason is that all of the "negative" stuff that we talk about here is simply put, true. You can try to sugar-coat AMD's position, but the fact is that AMD is at a crucial point where they need to start executing or face financial instability.

 

[BaronMatrix]

"Nevertheless, Mario Rivas, who is executive vice president of computing solutions group revealed in his presentation that the code-named ATI R700-family of products will only be available in 2009."

"The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD%u2019s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD%u2019s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities."

Full Article-
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20071214153406_AMD_Delays_Introduction_of_Next_Generation_ATI_R700_Graphics_Chips.html

But when pressed by an analyst about when exactly faster Barcelona parts (i.e., 2.5 GHz) would be available, there was a pause, then Rivas offered early Q2 in the "April-May timeframe."

Full Article
http://www.x86watch.com/news/amd-barcelona-analyst-meeting-188.html

First off, I'd like to apologize for posting this in the cpu section, but most of the extremely well known individuals with great insight and point of views mostly visit this CPU section, so wanted to make sure I can hear their thoughts. If it was a bad idea, I apologize, and you can delete/move the thread.

Another disappointment rolled after another. This is truly becoming horrible, Yet Ruiz gets a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking. Yes they are low on R&D funding do to many issues which we've all heard many times. But to delay R700, which if successful, could of at least gained them some income, is just downright depressing. We'll probably end up seeing a VERY expensive 9800 from Nvidia.....The future is beginning to dim a bit, this is no a good turn of events. A high end monopoly is not going to be good at all.

But at least r680 will be out in the market, the dual gpu solution might give some comfort for AMD till 2009. But I doubt it will give them much. I literally can not even comprehend this delay, it is not registering in my head at all. To think they would delay till 2009 is just absurd and jaw dropping. ::sighs::, although I have more on my mind regarding the subject, I'm just gonna let it be, and let it out slowly in discussion.

Regarding the Phenom 2Q launch, wasn't it originally intended for a March release? I guess maybe this will be the B3 stepping that was intended for march? Everything just gets worse and worse. The longer they take getting out faster phenoms, the smaller the profit (if you can even call it profit) they will make before Nehalem. When Nehalem gets released, core prices will drop, and in turn AMD will have to drop their prices to be competitive. AMD just keeps making a big mistake after another. I do understand they are low on R&D funding, but a whole is being dug they can't get out of by themselves. Someone will have to intervene, who?, no idea, a buy out? merger?, so many possibilities. But the key factor, the future looks bleak.

I guess I am a fan of AMD since I can see the "glass half full." Look at itlike this. R680 is coming out at 55nm and will probably use less power than 8800GTX. In order to prep for Fusion, they need to get to 45nm. It's easier to do with an existing arch. If they can get R680 at 45nm they should be able to clock it ABOVE 1GHz. Close to 800MHz only needs passive cooling on RV670, so a 45nm 670 should do 1GHz easily and overtake most nVidia cards.

With K10, the issues aren't really clear which I do blame on AMD, but the fact that Newegg is still selling Phenom pretty well says that there is demand and they will make more for each 9500 than they will for each 6400+ because 6400+ is made on 200mm wafers and Phenom is made on 300mm wafers. I actually imagined them breaking even before Q208 because of closing down Fab 30. I would think that only Opteron is made at Fab30 at this point as they are higher margin and AMD did get 3.4% server share back for Q3.

The latest word also says they have $2B in cash so I guess they want to hold onto it until K10 can be more than 50% of Fab36. Also, ATi has gotten basically back to profitability and has the most MXM wins this year, so rather than spending the extra money on R700, they can get K10\K10.5 in the best possible shape as the CPU margins are their bread and butter.

 

[BaronMatrix]

I find the whole AMD vs. Intel "war" truly sickening.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

I find the whole AMD vs. Intel "war" truly sickening.

How so? Please elaborate, I'd be very interested. Are you referring to pricing? The current state of AMD vs Intel?

I'm with you on a couple of issues BM, we need AMD to be around, but I fear they have dug themselves a deep hole and need to start executing NOW if they are to get out of it.

 

[sailer]

Kamrooz- You wrote "Yes Ruis get a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking." While I can't positively answer that, I can speculate that the entire board is expecting disaster and is giving itself raises and golden parachutes for the time when AMD might be bought out and they loose their jobs. It would be put into the buyout deal, so that the company buying out AMD has to pay the golden parachute costs as well as the company costs. The executive board knows that AMD is loosing and failing, so they are protecting their future lack of a job.

I am disappointed in the delay on the R700 video card series. Even if the cards haven't been able to be a top end product, I have hoped that by being able to compete in the mid-range area, they could show enough profit to help support AMD as a company. As it is, Nvidia has the most to gain in these decissions, and the least reason to put out any really new cards. As good as the 8800 GT and the new 8800 GTS 512 are is some ways, they really don't increase performance over the 8800 GTX and Ultra models. Nvidia might release better cards in the future, but they don't have any compelling reason to do so.

Only some speculations and opinions here, but something to think about.

 

[zenmaster]

Actually, NVIDIA does have motivation to put out faster cards.
They want to sell new cards to all of the current 8800GTX, 8800GT, and 8800GTS card holders.

If a they can release a new high-priced card, they will likely have bigger margins on those cards as well as reselling to new customers.

What hurts, is that NVIDIA is more free to charge what they want.

 

[TechnologyCoordinator]

Actually, NVIDIA does have motivation to put out faster cards.
They want to sell new cards to all of the current 8800GTX, 8800GT, and 8800GTS card holders.

If a they can release a new high-priced card, they will likely have bigger margins on those cards as well as reselling to new customers.

What hurts, is that NVIDIA is more free to charge what they want.

Great points.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

OK, I know the source is in question but heres another take on same knowledge http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/14/amd-outs-lot-info-analyst-day . Reading here on the forums, as well as annands, I keep hearing that AMD needs to slow down and get it right, well it looks as tho thats just what theyre doing. Im not so sure this includes the newer cards, more the platforms, Ive read it, and I cant see exactly where it concerns the cards. The NB/SB to some degree yes, but not the cards. Im hoping that AMD does just get it right, cause when asked, most of these VPs are hesitant ATM, as would we all be, and I for one am glad to see that as well, as opposed to a Hectorish "we are heading full steam with an incredible dominating product that will beat those cheaters at Intel" statement. Maybe reality has hit at AMD now, and with it hope, as I hope