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AMD does it again, R700 Delayed till 2009, Phenom 2Q 2008

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December 15, 2007 3:20:18 AM

Quote:
"Nevertheless, Mario Rivas, who is executive vice president of computing solutions group revealed in his presentation that the code-named ATI R700-family of products will only be available in 2009."

"The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD%u2019s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD%u2019s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities."

Full Article-
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200712141534...


Quote:
But when pressed by an analyst about when exactly faster Barcelona parts (i.e., 2.5 GHz) would be available, there was a pause, then Rivas offered early Q2 in the "April-May timeframe."

Full Article
http://www.x86watch.com/news/amd-barcelona-analyst-meet...



First off, I'd like to apologize for posting this in the cpu section, but most of the extremely well known individuals with great insight and point of views mostly visit this CPU section, so wanted to make sure I can hear their thoughts. If it was a bad idea, I apologize, and you can delete/move the thread.

Another disappointment rolled after another. This is truly becoming horrible, Yet Ruiz gets a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking. Yes they are low on R&D funding do to many issues which we've all heard many times. But to delay R700, which if successful, could of at least gained them some income, is just downright depressing. We'll probably end up seeing a VERY expensive 9800 from Nvidia.....The future is beginning to dim a bit, this is no a good turn of events. A high end monopoly is not going to be good at all.

But at least r680 will be out in the market, the dual gpu solution might give some comfort for AMD till 2009. But I doubt it will give them much. I literally can not even comprehend this delay, it is not registering in my head at all. To think they would delay till 2009 is just absurd and jaw dropping. ::sighs::, although I have more on my mind regarding the subject, I'm just gonna let it be, and let it out slowly in discussion.

Regarding the Phenom 2Q launch, wasn't it originally intended for a March release? I guess maybe this will be the B3 stepping that was intended for march? Everything just gets worse and worse. The longer they take getting out faster phenoms, the smaller the profit (if you can even call it profit) they will make before Nehalem. When Nehalem gets released, core prices will drop, and in turn AMD will have to drop their prices to be competitive. AMD just keeps making a big mistake after another. I do understand they are low on R&D funding, but a whole is being dug they can't get out of by themselves. Someone will have to intervene, who?, no idea, a buy out? merger?, so many possibilities. But the key factor, the future looks bleak.
December 15, 2007 4:06:14 AM

I don't see this as being a delay - per se - in K10.. recall Barcy is a server chip and is at lower clocks than Phenom... so while a lack of a 2.5Ghz Barcy is troubling in and of itself, it's not a delay from what they have been saying recently.

That being said, it *is* at least a nine month delay from where they said they were going to be last year at this time. Given that we've seen, what, a 2.0 (max) from AMD, getting a 2.5 out by the spring would be a coup.
December 15, 2007 4:10:51 AM

If you read the entire article regarding k10, It's in regarding of Barcelona/Phenom, both platforms. So it's not just the server chips. If I remember correctly it was stated that B3 would be a March launch, the 2.4/2.6 Phenom would fit in that timeframe, unless they meant B3 stepping in march, with the 2.5+ models in April/May.

The biggest issue IMO is th delay of r700, pushing back their entire GPU roadmap to 2009, that's quite a scary thought.
December 15, 2007 4:36:59 AM

i'm a big amd and ati fan and all, but they're screwing up big time. they really need some new leadership in that company and i'm not the only one that thinks so. maybe samsung will buy them and they can pump more money into fixing AMD's stuff. even the fanboys need to face it, amd needs a savior right now. i havent owned in intel in about 10 years, and when i'm doing a rebuild this summer if amd's quad core problems still arent fixed and they're till underperforming...intel it is, which saddens me.
December 15, 2007 4:41:21 AM

Unfortunately it's not that simple either, if AMD is indeed bought out, there x86 license will be voided. It's quite a tricky scenario...But nothing is looking good.
December 15, 2007 5:11:13 AM

I'm more troubled by the problems with Phenom than I am the R700 delay. I believe they're planning on doing a dual core GPU with R700, whereas R680 will be two GPUs on one card.

Let's face it, AMD is back to where they were in the K62 days. They're the value conscious budget CPU company. ATI is doing better, even if AMD payed too much for them. AMD might have management issues (and Hector Ruiz does not deserve a raise), but were it not for AMD then Intel would not be innovative as a response.

Intel didn't mind foisting Netburst on the desktop PC market, but it took their failure in the server market to get them to acknowledge reality and to put their money into R&D. So, I don't see AMD's failure as critical, considering the size of the company and what they're trying to accomplish, but if they don't survive, then we won't see much innovation for some time from Intel.

Who cares about a high end GPU? All AMD has to do is remain competitive in the entry and mainstream market. Hybrid Crossfire with the 780G and X3450 and X3470 looks good for that, as does the performance of the X3850 and X3870. So they're back in the Radeon 8500 days, so what?

They will either survive and innovate, bringing the next X2 and Radeon 9700, they will be bought out, or they will die as a company and others will buy their tech. Until then, all the kvetching in the world won't help and their fans, like myself, will just have to be realistic. AMD will earn it's profitability back in the entry level and mainstream.

Nvidia and Intel can have the performance GPU and CPU for now. In the long run, that performance crown doesn't mean much, as the products are way overpriced. After all, I'd rather buy X3870's for both our PC's than to spend twice as much for one Nvidia power hog that only grants about 20-30 fps more in a FPS title that I don't actually play.

ATI does quite well in the RPG and RTS titles that I do play, all the while providing value. As is, I'll get 65nm Barcelona's at 2.9 gigahertz for my next spring builds, I can't see wasting money on a Phenom or buying overpriced C2D's.

Kamrooz said:
Unfortunately it's not that simple either, if AMD is indeed bought out, there x86 license will be voided. It's quite a tricky scenario...But nothing is looking good.


I'm sure Samsung could afford another license. If IBM buys them out (much less likely), then there's probably a license already in existence. If not, then they can afford one too. I can't see Intel getting away with the anticompetitive refusal to cooperate in the licensing of x86 technology.

I'm looking forward to the death of x86. It might be 20 years from now, when I'm 70, but it's coming. The architecture is getting old and something along the line of a Cell needs to replace it.
December 15, 2007 5:13:33 AM

youve to got to be something kidding me.
really, sweet intel you guys are screwing up incredibly.
holy hell
sweet mother
if your losing money due to inferior products what do you do? cut down r&d?, they may not be inferior right now but i can see nivida doing there own re-fresh around may giving them time to postpone what would be the rv700's competition so they can tweak it and possibly get a whole lot more out of it and still get it to the market a month or two before amd.

im betting that the RV620 is just two 55nm 2400xt's on the one boards, and the RV635 is just two 55nm 2600xt's with ramped up clock speeds.

the rv700 better have over 9000 of everything and be only 25cm long and use 50w to be justified, even if they are cutting down r&d.
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2007 5:45:53 AM

Overpriced C2D's? What are you talking about. The only chips that are overpriced are the EE chips and the Q6700 currently isnt worth the price difference from the q6600 which by the way is cheap.
December 15, 2007 5:48:34 AM

Just think, with ATI/AMD not releasing the R700 in 2008, why would Nvidia bother releasing the 9800 series?

So, this is worse than you thought, since Nvidia has proof that their rival will not release anything to compete with the high end, nvidia has no reason to release the 9800 series to remain on top. They can just keep milking the current generation of chips. Face it, GPU innovation has stagnated with this latest announcement from ATI/AMD.
December 15, 2007 7:27:08 AM

We always seem to forget a few things.
AMD increased thier share of the processor market by .6% last quarter. This quarter, they will sell more chips than they ever have before.
It's not like they cant sell every chip they make. Nor is it really a question of profit. AMD doesn't do profit. They never have, and probably wont for a long time. I believe in the last 40 quarters, they have used black ink only 3 or 4 times. Historicly thier quarterly reports are a sea of red, yet they have grown from a $100,000 company, to a top 500 company. They are competing against a monster 10 to 20 times thier size, and are only slightly behind.
Somehow, I think they will soldier along.
December 15, 2007 7:40:50 AM

endyen said:
We always seem to forget a few things.
AMD increased thier share of the processor market by .6% last quarter. This quarter, they will sell more chips than they ever have before.
It's not like they cant sell every chip they make. Nor is it really a question of profit. AMD doesn't do profit. They never have, and probably wont for a long time. I believe in the last 40 quarters, they have used black ink only 3 or 4 times. Historicly thier quarterly reports are a sea of red, yet they have grown from a $100,000 company, to a top 500 company. They are competing against a monster 10 to 20 times thier size, and are only slightly behind.
Somehow, I think they will soldier along.


While what you wrote was true, you forget that during the time they built themselves up, they didn't carry a debt that is worth almost as much as the company does today. Slightly behind depends on how you look at things. If you believe that their current products are just slightly behind Intel's that is fine, but unfortunately, it's much more than slightly behind, to others. Realize that Barcelona and Phenom are the flagship CPUs for AMD, not their mainstream CPUs. These were the CPUs to help jump start them back to profitability. Instead, they (AMD) have realized that the entire launch of both Barcelona and Phenom were close to disasterous as possible.

Also, the .6% cost them how much for that quarter? Close to $400M? And if this report is true, Intel has regained the lost market share from AMD so far, this quarter.
Quote:
Intel grew based on strong shipments of mobile personal computer products. The company also regained some of the market share it lost to Advanced Micro Devices Inc., its rival in the computer microprocessor market, according to Gartner.
Link to Article

So, AMD might soldier along, but it is not marching, more than it is limping.
December 15, 2007 8:42:21 AM

Quote:
Also, the .6% cost them how much for that quarter? Close to $400M?

Well, no. The "lost $400M" would be thier writedown on Fab36 and the Ati aquisition, so it's more like they didn't replace money they spent last year, and the year before. What is noteworthy about AMD's finanial position is that they currently have 550 million outstanding shares, while last year, they had 650 million. So while "loosing alot of money" they were somehow able to buy back 15% of thier shares.
Interesting.
Thier present market worth is $700M less than what they paid for Ati.
Interesting.
The present "depreciated" worth of Fab36 is higher than AMD's "market value".
Interesting.
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2007 9:12:57 AM

Could this be another company like 3Dfx... such a sad waste...

The delays and what not make it sound like a few company's i know of, first comes delays and people start loosing trust in there products, then the quiet, as the dream becomes harder to follow, then... gone...

When Intel releases peryn at 45nm fully they will have the price and performance advantage as it cost less to produce, and as for the Nvidia 9 series - a new insane series of mid range cards to come with a new king, if ATi isnt working on a new one, then chances are Nvidia cards will overlap ATi with even low/mid range cards...
December 15, 2007 10:58:25 AM

that would suck if the next gen ati cards wont be coming out 2008.. oh crap im tired of the remixes of geforce 8s already, if ati dont make a move, we'll be in another long year of gfx stagnation
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2007 11:02:53 AM

The pay rise ... jeesh !!

This just made made me feel ill ... corporate greed gone terribly wrong.

What the hell do you do with that much money?

Bet he can afford a quad core unlocked Intel CPU in his PC at home !!




December 15, 2007 1:06:11 PM

AMD is fine,I keep saying this alot.First the Phenom will get better with each stepping till they go to 45nm,Intel to is having issues with there cpu,which will give AMD much time to tweak.Second,the chip set market is about to take off ,790s with its flexabalities and the 780s with its hybrid igp.Intel and Nvidia wont get much rest with these.Third and last,the gpu.AMD will be relying on there drivers to pull them through,which I believe it can (hybrid drivers).The gpu's 55nm is not only smaller and cheaper than Nvidia's 65nm,but has alot of room to play with,so I dought it wont be competive ,in fact I'm thinking XTX.I didnt think the R700 would be ready anyway due to it being a 45nm multi core gpu.I think we have fallen in the negitive hype hole,that we are not seeing the whole picture.The Phenom suck now, but we are not just talking about Phenom now but the whole company.
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2007 1:50:29 PM

What issues are Intel having rodog?. The only thing i have seen that can be considered a issue is the qx9770 power usage on the ES samples. which frankly almost knowbody gives or should give a crap about As long as the rest of the penryn core cpus are fine(1333fsbs) Basing what we have seen the from the qx9650 there power usage is great. Intel is meeting its roadmap on schedule.
December 15, 2007 2:11:08 PM

ro3dog said:
I think we have fallen in the negitive hype hole,


It's not a hype hole, it's reality. You can't ignore sub-par, FAR less than promised performance, stop ship orders, recalls, patches that degrade performance, and even AMD admits serious design issues with K10. Pile on top of that more product delays, huge company debt, and a spiraling stock price and I smell disaster. Even if AMD was to issue more shares, the amount they would get for dilluting their ownership would be pathetic at today's prices.

There is a reason AMD is selling for less than $8.50, instead of the $40 it was at only two years ago. That reason is that all of the "negative" stuff that we talk about here is simply put, true. You can try to sugar-coat AMD's position, but the fact is that AMD is at a crucial point where they need to start executing or face financial instability.
December 15, 2007 2:25:53 PM

Kamrooz said:
Quote:
"Nevertheless, Mario Rivas, who is executive vice president of computing solutions group revealed in his presentation that the code-named ATI R700-family of products will only be available in 2009."

"The reasons behind the delay of ATI R700 are unclear, but are believed to be related to AMD%u2019s intention to cut down the research and development (R&D) expenses. The consequences of the decision may be dramatic, if not fatal, to AMD%u2019s graphics product group, as state-of-the-art graphics technologies not only enable graphics cards that retail for the price as high as $849, but also open the door to video game consoles, which sell in hundreds of millions quantities."

Full Article-
http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/200712141534...


Quote:
But when pressed by an analyst about when exactly faster Barcelona parts (i.e., 2.5 GHz) would be available, there was a pause, then Rivas offered early Q2 in the "April-May timeframe."

Full Article
http://www.x86watch.com/news/amd-barcelona-analyst-meet...



First off, I'd like to apologize for posting this in the cpu section, but most of the extremely well known individuals with great insight and point of views mostly visit this CPU section, so wanted to make sure I can hear their thoughts. If it was a bad idea, I apologize, and you can delete/move the thread.

Another disappointment rolled after another. This is truly becoming horrible, Yet Ruiz gets a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking. Yes they are low on R&D funding do to many issues which we've all heard many times. But to delay R700, which if successful, could of at least gained them some income, is just downright depressing. We'll probably end up seeing a VERY expensive 9800 from Nvidia.....The future is beginning to dim a bit, this is no a good turn of events. A high end monopoly is not going to be good at all.

But at least r680 will be out in the market, the dual gpu solution might give some comfort for AMD till 2009. But I doubt it will give them much. I literally can not even comprehend this delay, it is not registering in my head at all. To think they would delay till 2009 is just absurd and jaw dropping. ::sighs::, although I have more on my mind regarding the subject, I'm just gonna let it be, and let it out slowly in discussion.

Regarding the Phenom 2Q launch, wasn't it originally intended for a March release? I guess maybe this will be the B3 stepping that was intended for march? Everything just gets worse and worse. The longer they take getting out faster phenoms, the smaller the profit (if you can even call it profit) they will make before Nehalem. When Nehalem gets released, core prices will drop, and in turn AMD will have to drop their prices to be competitive. AMD just keeps making a big mistake after another. I do understand they are low on R&D funding, but a whole is being dug they can't get out of by themselves. Someone will have to intervene, who?, no idea, a buy out? merger?, so many possibilities. But the key factor, the future looks bleak.




I guess I am a fan of AMD since I can see the "glass half full." Look at itlike this. R680 is coming out at 55nm and will probably use less power than 8800GTX. In order to prep for Fusion, they need to get to 45nm. It's easier to do with an existing arch. If they can get R680 at 45nm they should be able to clock it ABOVE 1GHz. Close to 800MHz only needs passive cooling on RV670, so a 45nm 670 should do 1GHz easily and overtake most nVidia cards.

With K10, the issues aren't really clear which I do blame on AMD, but the fact that Newegg is still selling Phenom pretty well says that there is demand and they will make more for each 9500 than they will for each 6400+ because 6400+ is made on 200mm wafers and Phenom is made on 300mm wafers. I actually imagined them breaking even before Q208 because of closing down Fab 30. I would think that only Opteron is made at Fab30 at this point as they are higher margin and AMD did get 3.4% server share back for Q3.

The latest word also says they have $2B in cash so I guess they want to hold onto it until K10 can be more than 50% of Fab36. Also, ATi has gotten basically back to profitability and has the most MXM wins this year, so rather than spending the extra money on R700, they can get K10\K10.5 in the best possible shape as the CPU margins are their bread and butter.
December 15, 2007 2:51:37 PM

I find the whole AMD vs. Intel "war" truly sickening.
December 15, 2007 2:58:42 PM

BaronMatrix said:
I find the whole AMD vs. Intel "war" truly sickening.



How so? Please elaborate, I'd be very interested. Are you referring to pricing? The current state of AMD vs Intel?

I'm with you on a couple of issues BM, we need AMD to be around, but I fear they have dug themselves a deep hole and need to start executing NOW if they are to get out of it.
December 15, 2007 3:03:34 PM

Kamrooz- You wrote "Yes Ruis get a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking." While I can't positively answer that, I can speculate that the entire board is expecting disaster and is giving itself raises and golden parachutes for the time when AMD might be bought out and they loose their jobs. It would be put into the buyout deal, so that the company buying out AMD has to pay the golden parachute costs as well as the company costs. The executive board knows that AMD is loosing and failing, so they are protecting their future lack of a job.

I am disappointed in the delay on the R700 video card series. Even if the cards haven't been able to be a top end product, I have hoped that by being able to compete in the mid-range area, they could show enough profit to help support AMD as a company. As it is, Nvidia has the most to gain in these decissions, and the least reason to put out any really new cards. As good as the 8800 GT and the new 8800 GTS 512 are is some ways, they really don't increase performance over the 8800 GTX and Ultra models. Nvidia might release better cards in the future, but they don't have any compelling reason to do so.

Only some speculations and opinions here, but something to think about.
December 15, 2007 3:21:00 PM

Actually, NVIDIA does have motivation to put out faster cards.
They want to sell new cards to all of the current 8800GTX, 8800GT, and 8800GTS card holders.

If a they can release a new high-priced card, they will likely have bigger margins on those cards as well as reselling to new customers.

What hurts, is that NVIDIA is more free to charge what they want.
December 15, 2007 3:22:20 PM

zenmaster said:
Actually, NVIDIA does have motivation to put out faster cards.
They want to sell new cards to all of the current 8800GTX, 8800GT, and 8800GTS card holders.

If a they can release a new high-priced card, they will likely have bigger margins on those cards as well as reselling to new customers.

What hurts, is that NVIDIA is more free to charge what they want.


Great points.
December 15, 2007 3:57:21 PM

OK, I know the source is in question but heres another take on same knowledge http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2007/12/14/... . Reading here on the forums, as well as annands, I keep hearing that AMD needs to slow down and get it right, well it looks as tho thats just what theyre doing. Im not so sure this includes the newer cards, more the platforms, Ive read it, and I cant see exactly where it concerns the cards. The NB/SB to some degree yes, but not the cards. Im hoping that AMD does just get it right, cause when asked, most of these VPs are hesitant ATM, as would we all be, and I for one am glad to see that as well, as opposed to a Hectorish "we are heading full steam with an incredible dominating product that will beat those cheaters at Intel" statement. Maybe reality has hit at AMD now, and with it hope, as I hope
December 15, 2007 3:58:44 PM

sailer said:
Kamrooz- You wrote "Yes Ruis get a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking." While I can't positively answer that, I can speculate that the entire board is expecting disaster and is giving itself raises and golden parachutes for the time when AMD might be bought out and they loose their jobs. It would be put into the buyout deal, so that the company buying out AMD has to pay the golden parachute costs as well as the company costs. The executive board knows that AMD is loosing and failing, so they are protecting their future lack of a job.

I am disappointed in the delay on the R700 video card series. Even if the cards haven't been able to be a top end product, I have hoped that by being able to compete in the mid-range area, they could show enough profit to help support AMD as a company. As it is, Nvidia has the most to gain in these decissions, and the least reason to put out any really new cards. As good as the 8800 GT and the new 8800 GTS 512 are is some ways, they really don't increase performance over the 8800 GTX and Ultra models. Nvidia might release better cards in the future, but they don't have any compelling reason to do so.

Only some speculations and opinions here, but something to think about.


I think sailer just gave us the answer to that mysterious pay raise. Someone with some dignity would refuse that raise. May be Hector Ruiz doesn't care anymore - He knows the raise wouldn't be materialized next year.

Delay is the trademark of AMD. The delay of R700 is no more surprising.
December 15, 2007 4:22:57 PM

Here's my 2 cents, for those stating that Phenom will be fine with time, and the newer steppings will fix their issues, IMO you're being way to optimistic.

I'm sure Phenom/Barcelona will get better, It won't make a massive return to offer performance over the core architecture though, after all, the barcelona architecture is indeed inferior, but at least they'll be able to raise their clock speeds to compensate for it (If they can fix the numerous issues). But that "with time" statement puts a bad taste in my mouth, they do not have it. Nehalem will be out at the end of 2008, it doesn't give AMD much time to get these faster quads out at 2.5 ghz around april/may. If they hit even more delays, it will be disastrous. Keep in mind, Penryn will be priced at 265 for a 2.5 ghz quad core, and 315 for a 2.66 quad core. Meanwhile Barcelona can't beat core's architecture in performance, penryn will also have a 4-7% increase in performance. Barcelona is also currently overpriced as is, a 2.3 Phenom (9600) can't outperform a q6600, yet it's priced at 275, a 2.6 phenom can't even surpass a q6600, yet the 2.4 is priced at 315.

http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/2007/12/13/amd_phenom_...

http://www.guru3d.com/article/processor/477/

But once again, the issue is not Penryn, it's Nehalem, the performance increase is gonna be massive, much larger than the transition we saw from Netburst to Core. AMD needs to make at least some profit. Once Nehalem is released to market, core prices will drop, amd's will have to drop as well to compete, which means amd's x2 and phenom prices will have to drop to become even more of a low budget solution. We've all seen many AMD fans jump ship to intel, Nehalem will just end up speeding that process along quicker.

Don't get me wrong, It's great you are still keeping faith, but the situation is far more serious then you think. R680 will be interesting, dual 55nm r670's on one board. AMD's new IGP chipsets are going to be amazing with their hybrid crossfire and their ability to disable the video card and run off IGP to conserve power on the desktop. But R700's delay is disastrous. I know I posted this in the CPU section, and some of you might not care as much for the gpu market, but this gives reason for Nvidia to just delay the 9800 even more. The 8800 GTX has been out for 13 months now, to think this can make them even delay the 9800 longer for the lack of competition is even worse. Keep in mind, Nvidia is also working on a dual card solution, it only make senses to offer what your rival offers also, but if their is no competition, prices will rise, and product development/launches will slow down drastically (we've all seen this in the past, this will be no different). R680 will not be able to hold on for an entire year, We also don't know if the r700 will be a early 2009 launch, but I'm doubting that.

Regarding r680, it still has issues as is. We all know that the 8800 GT is superior to the 3870. After all, the 3870's are basically a shrink of r600, they still have the AA performance issues that r600 had. I'm looking forward to r680, but r680 along with these new fantastic IGP based platforms will not hold out for a year, that's too long of a time frame. Personally, I believe that Nvidia originally planned to release 9800 during November, but decided not to do to r600's performance.

We all know of the leak of Nvidia's 9800 launch rumor from sources at their graphics card partners. Although I'm not one to live completely off rumors since they mostly turn out to be false, this one was leaked from video card partners from nvidia..

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20071129PD216.html

We also remember those insane 9800 specs posted back during the G92 is the 9800 fiasco. Instead we ended up getting a D8P product [p = performance line (8800 GT)] due to lack of competition. I believe we would of saw a 9800 if r600 turned out to be a success.

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20071129PD216.html

That was the old rumors, it still falls into the 65nm processing department. So maybe this actually was what we were going to get? We'll just have to wait and see. But you really can't base everything off just by dx 10.1 support and the 65nm process, but if Nvidia did delay the release of their card, and it did turn out to be this old rumor, coupled with the time they've had to tweak whatever they wanted considering there was no competition, the performance leap will probably be massive, similar to the 7800 GTX to 8800 GTX jump, or maybe bigger if they created a top notch architecture. Overall, I doubt the 3870 would even touch the new series. We don't know if Nvidia will decide to release it though with this new r700 delay. The only thing I see that AMD has to offer that can compete if they do, would be the new 780/790 IGP based boards, disabling the video cards while on the desktop will save power, so in turn you can load up on a large crossfirex build. But will still have to see how the r680 does.

But imo, r700's delay is going to be massive. I'm a gamer myself, and this news really makes me uneasy. When you take all the issues AMD has had in the past 2 years and stack them all ontop of each other, it makes it quite difficult to be calm about this scenario. Leaving the video card department completely open to Nvidia is dangerous. It's good to see them taking action with their current financial situations though, but delaying r700 this long will have consequences to them, and us as consumers.
December 15, 2007 4:25:14 PM

I don't want to talk about it anymore.
December 15, 2007 4:28:57 PM

BaronMatrix said:
I don't want to talk about it anymore.


We're not gonna bash you, as long as you can bring something to the table. This is a serious occurrence, which everyones opinions should be heard and debated. We're not saying AMD is garbage, but you have to admit, this is very worrying. Last thing I want to see is AMD go down....But this hole their in might be too big to dig themselves out of.
December 15, 2007 4:34:16 PM

Quote:
Kamrooz- You wrote "Yes Ruis get a raise? I do not understand what the board is thinking." While I can't positively answer that, I can speculate that the entire board is expecting disaster and is giving itself raises and golden parachutes for the time when AMD might be bought out and they loose their jobs.

While a humorous take on the state of affairs, I doubt that is really the case - reference my post in the thread about Hector getting a raise. I'm too lazy to check, but usually most of the board members are not employees of the company. The concept of a board is to keep the shareholders' interests. You can't have a group of managers arbitrarily giving themselves raises at the owners' expense. So when you see a raise, there's a good reason behind it.

Also, the reward for exceptional performance at this level is a (stock) bonus, not a raise.
December 15, 2007 4:49:30 PM

WR said:
The concept of a board is to keep the shareholders' interests. You can't have a group of managers arbitrarily giving themselves raises at the owners' expense.


Um, that happens regularly and routinely. In theory the shareholders won't support raises when companies are doing badly, but in reality few even bother to vote.

One company I used to work for and still owned a few shares in would give sizable raises to their board pretty much every year until they went bankrupt.
December 15, 2007 4:51:55 PM

Kamrooz said:
We're not gonna bash you, as long as you can bring something to the table. This is a serious occurrence, which everyones opinions should be heard and debated. We're not saying AMD is garbage, but you have to admit, this is very worrying. Last thing I want to see is AMD go down....But this hole their in might be too big to dig themselves out of.



Ditto. If you presents facts to support your conclusion we won't bash you. I can agree that I frown upon Intel for twisting the arms of suppliers in order to keep them Intel exclusive. However, that's in the past. I haven't heard anyone make a good argument as to how Intel's pricing is monopolistic.

I also want AMD not only to survive, but I want them to have better chips and better products. I want them to be a stronger competitor to Intel and see fierce, innovation driving, competition.
December 15, 2007 5:02:25 PM

Quote:
Um, that happens regularly and routinely. In theory the shareholders won't support raises when companies are doing badly, but in reality few even bother to vote

Well, certainly many times the corporate system doesn't work as intended, but I am just pointing out that Hector's raise probably wasn't his lone move. He had to have negotiated it and would thus need a passable reason - probably that AMD is in poor shape and thus the job of CEO especially taxing, or that losing money through stocks is unavoidable for him.
December 15, 2007 5:11:14 PM

They should pay him purely in stock, that'd get his butt moving.
December 15, 2007 5:25:40 PM

My thoughts can be found in the comments section of that article.
December 15, 2007 5:28:56 PM

I see it as a good idea if they need that extra time to further develop it. I mean look what happened to Phenom. They didn't take their time with it due to being pressed in need of money, and look how many bugs it has... They should just take their time in perfecting it...but then again, that time has to be...believable.
December 15, 2007 5:38:13 PM

nightscope said:
I see it as a good idea if they need that extra time to further develop it. I mean look what happened to Phenom. They didn't take their time with it due to being pressed in need of money, and look how many bugs it has... They should just take their time in perfecting it...but then again, that time has to be...believable.



But they did take their time with it, they released it 9 months late and still stunk!
December 15, 2007 5:38:37 PM

nightscope said:
I see it as a good idea if they need that extra time to further develop it. I mean look what happened to Phenom. They didn't take their time with it due to being pressed in need of money, and look how many bugs it has... They should just take their time in perfecting it...but then again, that time has to be...believable.


It's not that they didn't take their time with it, they got too cozy being at the top with the Athlon and X2's. They did what intel did, sat back and enjoyed profits until their competitor kicked their butt into gear. Unfortunately for AMD, they don't have the funds/staff/facilities that Intel have. So it makes it difficult to get back into motion.

Overall it was really the only logical choice to do, they couldn't cut their chipset funding, crossfireX with their IGP 790 boards will save a lot of money on the utility bill. Are they attempting to make up for it by just massing video cards via a crossfirex solution to stay competitive with Nvidia's new offerings? The Hybrid IGP they are making should make power saving more beneficial, but we'd still have to nab enormous psu's to handle the load scenario. But it's still extremely disappointing to see no new architecture in GPU's next year from ATI. Who knows what Nvidia will do, delay the 9800 yet again and enjoy profits, or release the 9800 and completely obliterate all cards on the market. With the amount of time they've had to cherry pick at their new architecture, who knows what the performance will be like. That is if we even see it with these new turn of events.

Over all, AMD's decision is the only possible way to go about it, but they are making quite a lot of profit off the 3850/3870, much more than Barcelona, to think there is no follow up is a bit disappointing. I won't doubt that r680 will be good, dual card solutions/drivers are becoming much more beneficial now-a-days, so why not a dual gpu solution? But Nvidia won't be slouching either, they will probably end up releasing a dual solution as well, I wouldn't be surprised if they delayed the 9800 and just released a dual 8800GT based product. Keep in mind, repeating mistakes in the business realm is very common, heck, we just saw AMD do the same thing intel did with netburst. We're just going to have to wait and see how everything turns out, for AMD's situation, it may have been the right step, but it's still devastating to the market, only time will tell.
December 15, 2007 5:42:28 PM

endyen said:
Quote:
Also, the .6% cost them how much for that quarter? Close to $400M?

Well, no. The "lost $400M" would be thier writedown on Fab36 and the Ati aquisition, so it's more like they didn't replace money they spent last year, and the year before. What is noteworthy about AMD's finanial position is that they currently have 550 million outstanding shares, while last year, they had 650 million. So while "loosing alot of money" they were somehow able to buy back 15% of thier shares.
Interesting.
Thier present market worth is $700M less than what they paid for Ati.
Interesting.
The present "depreciated" worth of Fab36 is higher than AMD's "market value".
Interesting.


Yeah....I dont know how current that number is. Remember, AMD just issued at least 49 million new shares for the $622 million investment from Mubadala Development Company.
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543~122154,00.html

Add to that the $2.2 billion (I think that was the total, but dont remember exactly) in outstanding Senior Notes, due to mature in 2012. Senior Notes cannot be 'blown' off in a CH 11 like regular stock, and must be paid off, either in cash or in predetermind min value shares when they mature, and AMDs finacial situation takes a big jump back.

Which leads to the whole buyout thing from another thread. Those Senior Notes make a buyout a lot more expensive than $4.8 Bil. You can either deduct the cost of the Senior Notes from the value of the company, since to issue Senior Bonds, leins must be placed against the assets of a corporation insurring the notes will be repaid even in the event of CH11 , or you can add the value of the notes to the buyout cost of of said corporation. Either way, Senior Notes, unlike stock, dont change in value, and can not be discounted.

I cant help but wonder why people keep forgetting about the Senior Notes and their impact on AMDs finances, but these have not gone away, and due to their nature (not to be confused with stock...a senior note is a bond) they must be accounted for.
December 15, 2007 5:48:08 PM

I still think Google should buy AMD...It'll solve a lot of things.
a b à CPUs
December 15, 2007 5:58:04 PM

Evilonigiri said:
I still think Google should buy AMD...It'll solve a lot of things.



Yah - We'd be able to find the chips *really* quickly... :pt1cable: 


{Couldn't resist...}
December 15, 2007 6:00:40 PM

aint that a b*tch and that sucks!
December 15, 2007 6:49:30 PM

Quote:
Get a life people.



Sorry, we didn't mean to hurt AMD's feelings. Perhaps if we all ignore the facts and praise the mighty K10 everything will be better.
December 15, 2007 6:53:50 PM

I know people who get more intense about their football teams, teams which can and do get new draft picks, free agents etc. This is much more final than that. Everyone talks about Intel with a monopoly, and tho theyre holding their prices down, just look at what nVidias doing now, in the gpu market which tends to move much faster than the cpu market does. Whens the last time a top card came out at 900$? And is still priced higher than the last gen top price a year later? If this keeps up, other than monopolistic laws, youll see Intel heading that way as well, which would only prompt a buyer to come along, as long as market sales remain firm, even at elavated or much elavated prices. We need AMD/ATI to do well right now, or its gonna get bad to be an Enthusiast, and very very exspensive at that, and maybe a lil boring as well, being less options
December 15, 2007 7:10:37 PM

Quote:
Get a life people.


It's funny when people are actually having a constructive discussion of AMD and the problems they are facing you think we should all get a life. Yet when the Intel threads about how no 45nm chip will work in current motherboards come around you are one of the first to state false claims backed up by nothing...

That being said, I really like what ATi has done with the HD3870/50. No they can't compete with nVidia for the crown, but they have offered a great card for a great price/performance. I'm a bit dismayed by the delay on a new generation card. I know the nVidia 9 series is supposedly going to release in February with mainstream versions in Juneish. The worst thing about this is they could possibly drop the 8800 GT/GTS down into the HD3870 price bracket if they wanted to.

I also want AMD to succeed already. I dislike how Intel is donig Nehalem so I'd like an alternative to it from AMD... However at the present it looks like I won't get much of one.

Oh well, I guess it's P45 + HD3870X2 for me.
December 15, 2007 7:34:39 PM

cnumartyr said:

I also want AMD to succeed already. I dislike how Intel is donig Nehalem so I'd like an alternative to it from AMD... However at the present it looks like I won't get much of one.

Oh well, I guess it's P45 + HD3870X2 for me.


I believe Nehalem's architecture is Intel's way of actually acknowledging AMD's success with the IMC in the server market, where Intel gets killed by AMD's IMC based products. Intel probably believes that Nehalem with the IMC will erase the advantage that AMD has over Intel with intensive memory based applications. I don't think the IMC is all that necessary in the desktop arena, myself, since the FSB is hardly ever saturated for most desktop users.

As for an alternative from AMD...I don't know what type of performance gains the new B3 rev will produce. But AMD has a lot of egg on its face right now, and needs the new revision, to not only shine, but to have plenty of quantity, in order to start to rebuild its damaged reputation that it had created with K8.
December 15, 2007 7:36:02 PM

NMDante said:
I believe Nehalem's architecture is Intel's way of actually acknowledging AMD's success with the IMC in the server market, where Intel gets killed by AMD's IMC based products. Intel probably believes that Nehalem with the IMC will erase the advantage that AMD has over Intel with intensive memory based applications. I don't think the IMC is all that necessary in the desktop arena, myself, since the FSB is hardly ever saturated for most desktop users.

As for an alternative from AMD...I don't know what type of performance gains the new B3 rev will produce. But AMD has a lot of egg on its face right now, and needs the new revision, to not only shine, but to have plenty of quantity, in order to start to rebuild its damaged reputation that it had created with K8.


Actually I was referencing the multiple socket platforms for Mainstream/Enthusiast.. I like the idea of Nehalem as an architecture and it's a step in the right direction. I dislike how it's being implemented as a package.
December 15, 2007 7:46:15 PM

NMDante said:
I believe Nehalem's architecture is Intel's way of actually acknowledging AMD's success with the IMC in the server market, where Intel gets killed by AMD's IMC based products. Intel probably believes that Nehalem with the IMC will erase the advantage that AMD has over Intel with intensive memory based applications. I don't think the IMC is all that necessary in the desktop arena, myself, since the FSB is hardly ever saturated for most desktop users.


I was under the impression that only the server variants of Nehalem were to have an IMC, anyways. On top of memory based applications, an IMC will help in multisocket systems.
December 15, 2007 8:00:56 PM

Quote:
Get a life people.


Glad you could share that VERY important statement with us. We applaud you.



Back to the subject...


So if AMD is going to push back R700 and cut back on Research and Development funding, than what again was the purpose of spending $5,000,000,000 on a company that is doing...nothing? :sarcastic: 
December 15, 2007 8:41:03 PM

The problem is when AMD bought ATI they were on top. Amd was making money. They had an architectural advantage to Intel (Netburst). Amd was very short sighted believeing that this will still be the case allowing them to fund R&D for the future products like fusion.

If you go back to the original articles back when Amd bought ATI they did say that they weren't interested in the discreet gpu market. They just wanted ATI's IP for use in future products. The problem is that they assumed financially it didn't really matter if ATI wasn't bringing in that much revenue because Amd only had to float itself long enough for some of the ATI technology to filter into AMD's product line and become the Spider platform we see today.

However AMD ran into 3 problems.

1. The Core architecture blew Amd's K8 away. It was faster and more efficient. Efficiency probably being the worst factor seeing how much Amd used to grill Intel for Netburst being a radiator. Then all of a sudden Amd's cpu's didn't look that impressive.

2. This isn't fact its just my opinion but I think Amd have just confirmed it. ATI's IP wasn't as impressive as it was made out to be. Amd has also just said that they overpaid for ATI which leads me to believe this to be correct. Ati's chipsets have always been inferior to the competion. There gpu's have always been inovative but they havn't ever managed to be the market leaders. When Amd bought ATI they thought they were getting a simalarly inovative company. What they got was a good discrete gpu maker and absolutly nothing else.

3. The K10 architecture is slow, inefficient, very complicated and expensive to produce. And not only this its almost 12 months late. Not really much else to say about that.

Heres an article on the AMD/ATI merger.
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/will-nvidia-geforce-still-compete-with-ati-radeon,review-21354.html
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